Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - 90's Paramount, full Dura Ace

http://madison.craigslist.org/bik/1160764570.html

He's bringing the bike to Madison tomorrow for me to look at it. I asked him to email me the serial number, to date the bike.

I really don't have a good feel for what a 90's Paramount is worth. Is $700 way too high for this?

OK, I got the serial number, and it's a 61 cm (my size!) Waterford-made Paramount made in December of 1989. Everything except the front derailleur is Dura-Ace, the FD is 105. Oh, and the front hub is 105 also. Rims are Mavic Open Pro.

IMO, The paramout is a very nice bike. I like that it's partial Duar-Ace - I don't like that the rims don't match - I like it if the paint is original and I don't like that it's not my size. It is high but I wouldn't hesitate too much about the price if it's a bike that I planned on riding a lot but overall condition must be near-mint.

$700 is high because its not uniform. If it were a bike with 100% uniformity its still seems high although 'we' underestimated a similar bike a short time ago. The main difference is that the previous bike was a period correct mint bike with full DA and it went for a alot.

Seatpost: NOT Dura Ace
Headset: NOT Dura Ace
Front hub: NOT Dura Ace
Front derailleur: NOT Dura Ace
Crank dust caps: NOT Dura Ace

The one thing I dont like is cobbled together bikes. If its a '90 model the only original DA would be the crankset, maybe the RD and maybe the rear hub (unlikely). STI levers are 8-speed minimum but Shimano didnt have 8-speed rear hubs in '89. Even the brake calipers aren't period correct.

For the STI levers to work correctly the rear derailleur should be marked '8-speed' and the rear hub should be of the cassette style.

$700 is high because its not uniform.

I agree with Jim regarding the way this affects value. Mix-and-match bikes simply don't have the same market value, with some exceptions. (Dura Ace did have 8-speeds in '89, BTW, though it wasn't hyperglide originally. Also, as a December '89 build I think it could be considered a '90 model year bike. I had a '90 Paramount OS frame that was spaced at 128 to make it usable with either 6-7 or 8-speed hubs.)

I agree with Jim regarding the way this affects value. Mix-and-match bikes simply don't have the same market value, with some exceptions. (Dura Ace did have 8-speeds in '89, BTW, though it wasn't hyperglide originally. Also, as a December '89 build I think it could be considered a '90 model year bike. I had a '90 Paramount OS frame that was spaced at 128 to make it usable with either 6-7 or 8-speed hubs.)

I wasnt too sure about the intro of 8-speed but they certainly didnt have STI until later. I tried the various Paramount resources and got stuck as far as the transition to 'OS' and the introduction of the 'Series' bikes.

Something that concerns me is the front wheel and headset. Why dont they match everything else? Did the bike experience a front impact? The headtube and fork angles look OK and the TT appears to smooth underneath so it may be OK.

To the OP: Run your hund under the TT and DT near the lugs and check for smoothness.

+1 Replacement wheel and headset could mean some type of accident.

+1 For a top dollar price, components should match and be period correct.

Thanks for all the replies! If it doesn't show any signs of collision damage, and if it really fits me well, I'll offer him $500.

It was a nice bike, and fun to ride, but he wasn't willing to go lower than $600, and I didn't bite. I'm kind of proud of my restraint today with both the Paramount and the 3Rensho.

There was Shimano 8-sp STI in both 600 tricolor and DA in 1989. I just shipped purevl a set of OEM Shimano 600 tricolor hubs w/8-sp cassette laced to Araya CTL-370's about a month ago. I have a complete DA 8-sp STI group, labeled 7400, including hubs, and a very similar 8-sp Shimano 600 tricolor group that I ran on the aforementioned wheel set, but switched out later.

If it had been DA from the hub to hub, through the crankset, bb, and headset, I'd say pay the $700 if the frame was original and the stem/bars were of equal quality (Cinelli, Nitto finer stuff, etc). But for $700 it had better be ready to ride and tuned, good chain and tires.

If he was willing to drive from Lancaster to Mad City, that's like 100 miles or so one way, so he either had other buyers waiting, or he only had about $400 in it, and the flip was worth the drive. I agree that it sounds cobbled together, but it just may have been a bunch of replacements as other things failed. Given that the headset is not Dura Ace, I tend towards the former.

There was Shimano 8-sp STI in both 600 tricolor and DA in 1989. I just shipped purevl a set of OEM Shimano 600 tricolor hubs w/8-sp cassette laced to Araya CTL-370's about a month ago. I have a complete DA 8-sp STI group, labeled 7400, including hubs, and a very similar 8-sp Shimano 600 tricolor group that I ran on the aforementioned wheel set, but switched out later.

If it had been DA from the hub to hub, through the crankset, bb, and headset, I'd say pay the $700 if the frame was original and the stem/bars were of equal quality (Cinelli, Nitto finer stuff, etc). But for $700 it had better be ready to ride and tuned, good chain and tires.

If he was willing to drive from Lancaster to Mad City, that's like 100 miles or so one way, so he must have some other buyers lined up. $600 was smart at top bid.

Rob, I dont see DA STI's listed until at least '91 with Ultegra's following in '92. Shimano numbered there components more or less based on generations. For example:

DA RD gen 1: 7400 in 1985
DA RD gen 2: 7401 in 1988
DA RD gen 3: 7402 in 1991 (introduction of STI)

DA STI levers gen 1: 7400 in 1991 Last digit is a zero because its the first generation
DA STI levers gen 2: 7410 in 1996 Major revisions
Da STI levers gen 3: 7700 in 1997 Jumps to 7700 due a change to 9-speeds.

7400 STI levers were paired with a 7402 RD.

Hmm, my error. What threw me off was the Shimano 600 tricolor stuff. It came on some '88 models, and I bought an '88 bike that had the 600 STI's. Then, I picked up a set of the Dura Ace 8-sp STI's, and figured about the same time frame would apply. I have two 1988 model bikes that arrived to me with 600 tricolor components, 130mm rear spread, so I figured 8-sp for them, and combined with the 600 STI's in 8-sp, figured they were about the same time frame. I have still yet to see a set of 8-sp Shimano 600 DT shifters, but I guess they're out there.

Glad to be corrected. I didn't know 600 tricolor was still around in '91.

Oh, he had other reasons for coming to Madison--he was going canoeing with a friend.

Yes, the bike was in very good condition, and I have a little bit of regret for not paying the $600 for it. It was in great condition overall, and was a real dream to ride. If he calls me back in another week or so, I'll go ahead and pay the $600.

my '89 waterferford OS paramount has the first DA STI 8spd group, so maybe it's a late '89 ('90) frame paired w/ an early '91 ('90) group? Or maybe the first owner built it up in '91 or so.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/DSCF2364.jpg

Check your date codes.....

Which DA date codes are easy to find, like on campy NR rear derailleurs?

Man, I had major non-buyers remorse all week. So I called the guy and said that I'd like to take another look at the Paramount. He was coming to Madison today to show it to someone else, so I had some hope. No such luck, the other guy was willing to pay the full $700.

Damn. There's a lesson for me in there somewhere!

M
Damn. There's a lesson for me in there somewhere!

Be patient, nice bikes are out there. Patience. I've waited years for certain parts.....