Mountain Biking - SSHT 22/11 thoughts?

A good starting point for SS is 2:1 or 32/16t. Why not go 22/11? Besides the tighter circle that the chain makes possibly wearing it out sooner...what's the drawback of a 22/11 gearing on a SS hardtail running a cassette freehub spacing the 11t inward?


-less chain/smaller chainring and cog= lighter
-way more ground clearance
-less chain = wear out what ya got sooner


Any other negatives?

wouldn't the smaller ring recieve higher torque and dig in more the cassette body, idk if it actually would happen that way, but it seems on geared bikes the smaller rings (not the 11/12 cause of the larger splines) dig into the freehub body more, but if you have a steel freehub, or a better single ring like the surley it wouldn't be a problem. theoretically there would be less teeth supporting the chain? that might make the cog wear a tad faster, but w/e. Maybe the smaller ring would be more prone to throwing the chain (but thats not a problem with a properly tentioned chain a proper chainline) IDK sound like its really more of a good thing.

However does anyone make a bash smaller than 32t, cause if you end up running a 32t bash...

oh and also u'd have to run it off a tripple crankset and only use the tiny part of the spider (or maybe bmx cranks would work) so u'd have to adjust your chainline accrodingly

higher cadence at high speeds. I've done it, but spun out sooner on the flats.

I think the main reason most don't is they use SS conversion kits, and most come with 15 and 18t cogs, and most SS specific cranks come with either 32, 36, or 38T chainrings. Worth another try tho. I've thought about trying it again for more techy rides.

Hmm.... Ed, you always put these damn ideas n my head.

as noted, the wear. also a higher chance of slippage, with less contact on the cogs.

higher cadence at high speeds.

22/11 and 32/16 would be the same cadence...2:1. Your issue would be more for a question like "32/18 or 32/14 ratio?"


I'm not terribly serious about this project...but just wondered. I do have some cassette spacers and a half link for the crapper though.

I don't have any strong feelings on the topic, but I'd recalled reading something on the Surly website years and years ago that cautioned against small cog/ring combos on SS mtbs. So, i did a search, and they claim that having fewer teeth engaged at any given moment could lead to "slippage". They also mentioned the increased wear, and the fact that any weight savings would be negligible. I personally don't see any of it as a big deal, but here's the link, if you wanna see it (it's a few paragraphs in).

http://www.surlybikes.com/spew3.html

The BMX world loves the ultra compact drivetrains, with like 23t/9t combos, and they don't worry too much about wear or slippage....

I run a 32t ring on my SS. it just looks "right".

-rob

Hey KEWL!

I agree on all arguments. I can see the dangers.

I got home where I had tools. (I was outta town this weekend) I was able to do a 32/15 combo which will be quite a grunt on my NL trail network, but a real hoot on one in Lawrence. I was hoping the Half link would give me the ability to do a 32/16 or 32/17, but it was a no go. I'm gonna try to find a tensioner for next to nothing, and a rigid 29'er fork. I think I'll have to go with the Voodoo fork b/c they have a 470mm A2C and adjustable brake bosses for my rim brakes.

Ditching all that crap dropped her down to a scant 23lbs 11oz. (scant for me, hehehe)
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/chelboed/Bike/DSC03518.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/chelboed/Bike/DSC03519.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/chelboed/Bike/DSC03520.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/chelboed/Bike/DSC03521.jpg


On a side note...this TT is sorta short for me, so I ordered a $12 EA50 90mmx6' for $7 after my $5 Jenson gift card. Should be about right since I went back to a 70mm Thomson on the Komodo.

Funny though...after I get the stem, I will have approx $25 in the bike and $50 in the tires.

If you look at my ride...my saddle is a couple inches higher than the bars...:eek: That's old SKOOL geo, man. I'm gonna raise her up a bit. If I can find the right fork, it will bring the front end of my bike up about 55mm + I'm gonna do a Tank Hit headset for an extra 8-10mm. I should be able to take a few headset spacers out from under there. The new stem is a 6 degree rise too, so that should give me another 6-8mm of rise. All said and done, it should be fairly close to where my other'n is. Still no comparison though.

The bike was originally spec'd with a Manitou SX 80mm fork with a 410'ish A2C, so it's a little short and twitchy right now with the Mag. I know I'm pushing the limits of HT stress going with a 470'ish A2C, but that should put the old steep HT/ST angles where I like them. Another option is going with something like an Instigator fork with a 447mm A2C, but I'm not sure that it'll bring it up to where I want it. The Salsa Cromoto would be nice, but I'm not spending $120 on a fork. The Voodoo would be about $60. It's tough enough putting that kind of money into the POS>

22/11 would pedal like a 32/16. But couldn't be done(chainline won't allow it) unless you went with a bmx crank with a custom 22 chainwheel up front and an entirely new rear wheel with an 11 tooth driver. Which wouldn't exactly be cost effective.

You could do it with a granny gear on my crankset and move all the cassette spacers to the OS with the 11t toward the inside. A dedicated singlespeed wheel wouldn't work though, I agree.

I have a 22t bash. :p

oh right u couldnt really get an 11t over the entire freehub body now could you, however surley does make a 13t cog, you coudl run that with a 26t ring, same concept, and u would just have to change around spacers to keep the chainline,

22t bash eh, ok i googled it and found one for a trials bike, makes me think that trials guys must already do this run smaller cogs deal

Oh wait a minute...is that 11t a cap? I forget now...I'll have to go look. Crap.

yeah i just checked a 970 cassette that i have kickin around, 11t wont slide over, looks like the 12 t would, so u could do 24/12 but i didn't see a 12t made by surly (dunno if anyone else does) but u coudl just use a 12t from a cassette, if u wanted to do it with a dedicated ss cog, 26/13 or find someone who does make a 12

can't believe it took that long for someone to catch that lol

If the gear ratios are the same, the torque is the same for the same circumstances of speed, slope, etc. But remember, torque is force multiplied by radius, so if the radii are smaller, the force is greater. Smaller sprockets will need greater forces on the chain and on the sprocket teeth to produce the same effect where the tire meets the pavement.

Rode it to work this a.m. with the 32/15 and spun out like craZ most of the time. I got to a decent hill and realized that I don't want to go any smaller than 32/15. I will take it out to the trail tomorrow to see how it does in the woods, I hope I'm not disapointed with the limits of 1 gear. We'll see. Sure is nice'n light though.

I've been trying out gear ratios becase I want to convert my bike to a single speed for a while. 32:16 seems right for the trails around me, possibly 15 but not sure.

I tried riding it home in that gear as well though and I just couldn't stand it. Not sure if I should try one of those nifty cog things with 2 ratios, or just do what I'm doing atm and leave them all there but only use 1 on the trail. Kinda seems silly though.

I did wonder about why people don't use smaller rings both front and back as well. I think the main reason is avaliability. I would love a 26t or possibly even 28t ganny ring to replace my wimpy 22t one, then fit a 36t or 38t on my middle, but those sizes just seem awkward to get. same with small single speed cogs in the rear. Well thats my main reason anyways.

Hi. I like to keep my SS geared pretty li8ght, b/c i'm lazy, and it keeps me from having to dismount up hills as much. But, whatever floats your boat, right?

Ed, i've got an old-school geo ride myself, and i was thinking of going 69 with it, just for doodoo and giggles. Any thoughts on that? Rigid 29" forks are cheap and plentiful, and i could temporarily take the 29" hoop off my SS to see how i like it. (the steerer tube on my SS's fork is too short for my 26" bike's headtube., so i can't just swap the front end entirely.)

-rob

Yah rob, I've thought about that too. I kinda dug the 69'er when Carver went mass with the 96'er prior to Trek. Now that everyone seems to be doing it...I just dunno. I was just gonna do it to freak people out and be different. Now I think I'd just be "trendy". The main thing is that would it be beneficial to my terrain? In this case, I would have to give a skeptical "yes". May be worth a try. I don't have a SS front wheel though, so I would have to build/buy one. I was thinking about building a set of wheels and having my LBS mech true and tension. It'd save me a wad of $$$ if I could lace them myself and just have him do the final tweak.

Actually...what I should do, is find the Voodoo Zombie fork and run it 26 for now. Then I could borrow a 29 inch front wheel from this local dude I know that rolls on a couple of 'em. Surely he'd let me borrow it for a ride or so just to see how it feels.

I'm kinda worried about bringing the front end up "too much". I think it's got a 71' HA at 415mm. If I bring it up to 470mm with the Zombie, add another 40mm for the 29'er wheel, and 10 for the headset...I'm looking at an added 4" which would bring my HA back to 67". That in itself is okay, but I don't want to add too much HT stress and make the bike handle like crap. I personally like a slack bike and may think it feels alright with a good slack HT/ST angle, but bringing up the front end around 3-3.5" higher than intended design will also bring up the BB height possibly a little too much.

Another thing I could possibly do is throw on the Instigator fork and see if a 29er front will squeeze in there. I'm still skeptical about the 2diff size wheels though.

:thumb:Ed, stop worrying and get your ass out there and ride.:thumb:

:thumb:Ed, stop worrying and get your ass out there and ride.:thumb:

I'm not worrying in the normal sense of the word, I guess...I'm 'cipherin' (like Jethro)

If my calculations are correct, taking into regard the change in HA with a taller fork, assuming the current HA to be 71deg, the 6deg rise of the new stem, and the 90mm length...

With a Surly Instigator rigid fork, my Head Angle would be around 69.5 deg and my axle to handlebar height would be raised about 56-57mm.

With the Voodoo Zombie, the HA would be 68 deg and A2 handlebar height would be raised about 81-82mm.

I'm thinking the Instigator would be a better way to go.

Raising the A2C 3" will raise my BB to almost the same height as the other Komodo.

I don't know... personally, I went the other way. Bigger chainring, bigger cog. The drivetrain is smooth and power delivery is noticeably flatter on loose climbs. The chain tension is also not as critical. With small/small it would definitely be a good idea to run a guide/tensioner even if just to get some additional chain wrap.

And after taco-ing a perfectly good 32T chainring, it doesn't seem like a good idea to run without a bashring regardless of how much clearance there seems to be down there. That said, how much weight is saved by running smaller gears (curious)?

yeah i just checked a 970 cassette that i have kickin around, 11t wont slide over, looks like the 12 t would, so u could do 24/12 but i didn't see a 12t made by surly (dunno if anyone else does) but u coudl just use a 12t from a cassette, if u wanted to do it with a dedicated ss cog, 26/13 or find someone who does make a 12..

I'd get a proper ss 12.

The last time I used a ramped cog from a cassette on my ss hub, the blumin chain shifted out off the cog when I was hammering it off the saddle, front wheel off the ground. The chainline was perfect, so it must've been swingarm flex. I whacked my knee into the back of the handlebar stem while trying to save what was going to be a faceplant, which I did - and got a trophy for it... a massive black n' blue hematoma on my knee cap! :twitchy:

Hence my signature below... :)


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Ed:

I've never given a second thought to what's trendy/not. I've read the last 2 issues of mountain biking magazine, and that editor is TOTALLY PATHETIC, worrying that drinking belgian beer or having a SS 29er is caving to current market trends. I personally really and truly don't care. Yeah, making a big deal about how "cool" your SS 29er/belgian beer/69er/cute hat is/are would be embarassing, but if you're just riding/wearing/drinking whatever you want, what's the big deal?

Just got off the trail an hour ago. As i was putting my bike back into my car, some DB was taking his out of his Xterra. I gave him the nod; he simply gave my bike a once over and *audibly scoffed*. I'll never understand why ppl think bicycling and fashion have anything in common. Biking alot is many good things, but it's rarely truly fashionable.

Anywho, I don't know about where you live, but I've yet to see a 69er on any of the trails around here. So, even if i was worried about trendiness, I still wouldn't worry about it. Those of us who spend time online or read cycling-related mags have an unrealistic idea about trends and what "everyone" is doing. Most ppl around me ride full-sus specialized or treks. More power to 'em.

-rob

I'd get a proper ss 12.

The last time I used a ramped cog from a cassette on my ss hub, the blumin chain shifted out off the cog when I was hammering it off the saddle, front wheel off the ground. The chainline was perfect, so it must've been swingarm flex. I whacked my knee into the back of the handlebar stem while trying to save what was going to be a faceplant, which I did - and got a trophy for it... a massive black n' blue hematoma on my knee cap! :twitchy:

Hence my signature below... :)


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yes that would it would def be better to use a 12t ss cog, but when i did quick googling i was having trouble finding anyting smaller than a 13, however a tad more looking showed me that king and profile bmx make 12t cogs. I was gonna say you can't get a 12t ss but i discovered i was wrong

and if you remember I had the post the caused your sig in that thread about chainguides, damn you murphy and your stupid law

Just got off the trail an hour ago. As i was putting my bike back into my car, some DB was taking his out of his Xterra. I gave him the nod; he simply gave my bike a once over and *audibly scoffed*. I'll never understand why ppl think bicycling and fashion have anything in common. Biking alot is many good things, but it's rarely truly fashionable.


-rob

So just for the visual what are the two bikes involved?

rob/jeep

The nice thing about riding a "Crapper" or an old rigid "Raleigh Pointe" is that when said DB scoffs:

You can kick his az5 with your silly little crapper. If he is faster, then you won't feel bad about launching a 23lb POS across the friggin parking lot at DB's Xterra!!

Just got off the trail an hour ago. As i was putting my bike back into my car, some DB was taking his out of his Xterra. I gave him the nod; he simply gave my bike a once over and *audibly scoffed*. I'll never understand why ppl think bicycling and fashion have anything in common. Biking alot is many good things, but it's rarely truly fashionable.

That speaks volumes about the other guy's character (or lack of it)...

Riders make rash judgements regarding other people's skill and fitness level too, not just the number of gears or the bike's price tag. But I have to say I've seen it happen a lot less with MTBikers, which is a good thing and hopefully would continue for years to come.

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mine: Redline monocog 29er. Black, still with the factory finish. I built the frame up with components better than the stock set-up: Hone cranks with 32t salsa ring, 520 pedals, singledigit brakeset, surly hubs on wtb dualduty freeride rims, weirwolf LT 2.55s, easton flatbar, ODI's.

His ride: 26” SS, copper in colour. I didn’t catch the make. Black rigid steel fork. Looked like hayes Hydros. Knobby maxis tires. Stylo SS crank. Didn’t make note of the rims. The frame had trackends. I suspect it’s a jamis exile from a few years ago, with the suspension fork replaced by a rigid, and few other modifications.
Really, the going price of either bike on ebay would probably be pretty similar. Maybe he hates 29” wheels; maybe he hates rim brakes. My suspicion is that he was p!$$ed that the only other bike present was another SS, and he was seeking exclusivity.

-rob

yes that would it would def be better to use a 12t ss cog, but when i did quick googling i was having trouble finding anyting smaller than a 13, however a tad more looking showed me that king and profile bmx make 12t cogs. I was gonna say you can't get a 12t ss but i discovered i was wrong

and if you remember I had the post the caused your sig in that thread about chainguides, damn you murphy and your stupid law

Haha yeah I remember :lol:

My son's into BMX and I think I saw a 12T lying around in his junk pile in my workshop (which is an even larger junk pile at the mo :p). He took that off cuz it's too big for him. I think he's on a 10T right now and wants to go to a 9T. I'm amazed that some of them go down to 8T, but on BMX hubs from 11T downwards the cog becomes a one-piece part of the ratchet barrel itself.

Those small cogs are pretty thick (1/8" wide and nitride hardened) and they are paired up with really thick non-shifting chains in order to compensate for the "wear" factor.



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huh didn't know that they had small cogs like that integrated to the freehub body, that must get expensive to replace cogs, especially since the cheap bmx freewheels only go down to i think a min 15t (the kind that thread on) i think one company (white industries?) makes a 14t by putting the pawls outside the freewheel but w/e

huh didn't know that they had small cogs like that integrated to the freehub body, that must get expensive to replace cogs, especially since the cheap bmx freewheels only go down to i think a min 15t (the kind that thread on) i think one company (white industries?) makes a 14t by putting the pawls outside the freewheel but w/e

Here's a hub from Profile Racing with 8T cog, standard is 14mm solid axles.

http://www.profileracing.com/profileracing/webstore/product_166.jpg

Below: You pull out the sprocket from the side and out it comes together with the ratchet mechanisms. This one is 8T for an Odyssey BMX hub... the scallop on the top right is where the rachet pawls go just before it's inserted into the side of the hub. It's user serviceable (replaceable item) with a sealed bearing factory pressed inside it.

If you use the correct matching chains for these, there's no reason why they can't be used for SS mtb... but the REAL question is... where will Chelboed get a 16T Chainring :lol: :lol:

(seriously though, do-able but not a good idea for mtb)

http://www.abcbikes.com.au/bmx/parts/images/profile%208t%20for%20odyssey%20hub.gif




Below is a matching chain (one of many sorts available)... you'll notice the uber thick chain side-plates actually rests on the collar on either side of the cog teeth. This takes some pressure off the cog teeth and the rollers in the chain to arrest excessive wear.

No weight savings here, but it's got a lot of pimp! :D

http://www.khebikes.com/cms/images/stories/_street/parts/chains/collapse/collapse_2.jpg

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ah didn't know they did that kinda stuff on anything but free coasters, i was thinking about a ss hub like the way chris king ss hubs are and having to replace that entire freehub body, Coolness,

so now you could really take chels idea even further, 8t bmx thingy, with a 16t bmx chainwheel (dunno if they make em that small lol) and bmx crankset on an xc SS, even better if its on an eccentric hub, run the hub at the high point, woudn't even need a bash, the oversized bb shell + the effects of the spindle being raised due to the eccentricness and i bet the chainwheel wouldn't even be lower than the frame now thats some clearance

^ Hahaha... I was afraid it might have that effect on you!