Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Lower back pain: is it me or the bike?

Hi everyone. I thought I would ask this question here, since LD riding might produce this problem more than other forms of cycling.

I’m a 6 foot even 52 year old. I started fun riding and commuting a year ago. I was 240 lbs and I started by riding 50 to 100 miles a week using a Giant Cypress comfort bike. Everything went very well. I achieved steady weight loss to 220 lbs and also reduced more than 7 inches reduced from my waist and 7 inches from my belly during the first year.

Now I’m riding even more and I’ve upgraded to a Cyclocross bike set-up as a road bike.

Last month I logged 500 miles, I typically ride 30 to 40 miles every second or third days. I've always had some lower back pain, but the pain would not last more than 48 hours. Recently I've been able to stay on the drops about 60 to 70% of the ride and I've increased my cadence from 75 to 90 rpm. Speeds are up from 15 mph to 18 mph average, according to my computer.

Now I’m waking up every day to minor back pain.

I can’t decide if this is normal “no-pain-no-gain” or something that I need to resolve. In the case that bike fit is the issue, I’ll add the following info. I use a size 60 Soma Double Cross. This bike was professionally fitted by a good quality LBS.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/wildcat-bucket/Somasilver019.jpg

Recently I've been able to stay on the drops about 60 to 70% of the ride

Why?

And those bars would be too low for me. Also check to see if your saddle is too high.

Why? (staying on the drops)

And those bars would be too low for me. Also check to see if your saddle is too high.

My hands are not as comfortable on the hoods, the web between my thumb and 1st finger gets streached if I stay on the hoods for more than a mile. I found some MTB gloves that reduce this problem recently.

The seat adjustment is ok, I had this double checked at the bike shop.

Michael

...This bike was professionally fitted by a good quality LBS.

I'm thinking most bike shops fit you for maximum speed, not comfort. You can try a stem extension, to raise the bars (about $20), or simply try staying out of the drops for a couple days. If the pain goes away...

My back pain goes away if I ride enough, and comes back if I don't. But, my bars are above the seat. I can ride my racing bike (set up like yours) for a couple hours. If I go longer, my back will act up, but it is good fun to go fast once in a while.

Stretching and ab workouts can help, too.

I concur that you are likely exacerbating your back issues due to an improper or too-aggressive position -- especially since you're spending too much time in the drops. Swap the stem for one with more rise and/or a shorter reach.

Also, you really should be riding on the hoods 90% of the time -- the drops are mostly used for descents, sprints and major winds. If you aren't comfortable in the hoods, something about your setup is either incorrect or just not working for you. First thing I would try is to tilt the handlebars back; this will make the ramp shallower, which in turn will result in less pressure on the area between your thumb and forefinger.

Separately you may want to do some abdominal exercises.

Are you working towards some kind of prize or something? Why do you think you need to ride in the drops that much? The drops are for better control on descents, sudden sprinting, occasional short use just to relieve muscles on long rides and to alternate with the hoods for riding in wind.

Back pain is always being blamed on handlebars, when probably most of the time, it has more to do with a saddle height that your back just can't tolerate... and that could be either too high or too low. Saddle could be too far back, or too forward... any of those things. You can't just know you get back pain and continue riding without changing something, hoping it will magically disappear. Lots of people at bike shops can look at you and set saddle height, but they can't feel what you feel, so, just because you had that done doesn't mean a darned thing.

I'll stay off the drops for a while. If that doesn't work, I'll...
Raise & flip the stem. If that doesn't work, I'll...
Start core strengthening...

I find I'm able to relieve stress on my back when riding by supporting my upper body using my ab muscles, kind of keeping them a little contracted rather than just letting the arch of my back support my weight.

Those bars look like they have a really big "drop" to them. Am I imagining that?

In looks likes the levers have been mounted pretty far down the bars as well. I know for a fact I would bring the levers up -if it was my ride.

Since this is such a big bike - there's no doubt that your back is suffering. Its the physics of the situation - a larger skeletal system will produce far greater stress to individual vertebrae when in stressed positions.

It's unlikely that any amount of "core work" will overcome this particular bike fit.

I've decided that you need to get a stem with substantial rise, move your levers back.

This is a severe change - I recommend. And if you keep the existing bars, your ending fit should be set so that the "drops" of the handle bars lay approximately one to two inches below the top tube. Currently they appear to at least four inches low. (if not more)

I repeat - this is only necessary because of your over all height and size.

Those bars look like they have a really big "drop" to them. Am I imagining that?

Hi RC,

The lens is distorting the size of the bar, the bar measures a 16mm vertical drop from the center of the cross tube to the center of the bar end.

Considering that this seems to be a fit and usage issue, and not a fitness issue, I'm going to change my riding style and handlebars. I have some other ideas, including shortening and raising the stem, but that's plan B for now.

I'll stop using the drops as much as I have. That will slow me down on windy days, and most days are windy here, but it's better than not riding due to pain.

I'm also considering the FSA compact handlebars (a review of the FSA bars can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EWM0KTdCOY ) and will relocate the levers a bit higher up while I'm at it. I'll also flip the 7 degree stem to raise it up a bit.

Any other thoughts?

Michael

Hi RC,

The lens is distorting the size of the bar, the bar measures a 16mm vertical drop from the center of the cross tube to the center of the bar end.




Any other thoughts?

Michael

Yes, other thoughts:

Can you get a picture of yourself on the bike, in your usual riding position, with the foot nearest the camera in the down most extended position? We could be perhaps a little more constructive in commenting on your position, if you're open to that.

Plus if the camera is about at saddle height when you make such a shot, the saddle/bar height won't be distorted.

What I am especially wondering is whether you are riding with a bend in your back or at your hips. I have a low-level lingering bit of sciatica which if I ride badly or fail to do back stretches, will become significant. I've set up my position for a straight spine all the way down into the pelvis, with most of my leaning from the hips. My hip closure angle is a bit tight, but it's pain-free. I do need more core work.

I set my saddle tilted slightly nose-down to accommodate this position.

I'd like to see how your position looks in that respect.

Road Fan

It does look like you have both low handlebars AND deep drop handlebars. In the past when cycling was still sane, the handlebars were higher, and deep drops were used to so the rider could still get down low enough when on the drops. Today's kind of bike design and bike fitting work better with shallower drop bars, in my opinion, because otherwise, the drops will be exceptionally low... especially if you expect to ride in them the majority of the time.

Yes, other thoughts:
What I am especially wondering is whether you are riding with a bend in your back or at your hips. I have a low-level lingering bit of sciatica which if I ride badly or fail to do back stretches, will become significant. I've set up my position for a straight spine all the way down into the pelvis, with most of my leaning from the hips. My hip closure angle is a bit tight, but it's pain-free. I do need more core work.

I set my saddle tilted slightly nose-down to accommodate this position.

I'd like to see how your position looks in that respect.

Road Fan

I set my saddle tilted slightly nose-down for the same reason. Got rid of 80% of my back pain. I had slavishly kept my saddle horizontal because "that's how it's supposed to look" and just accepting the pain; I'm glad I finally experimented and found what worked best for ME. I believe the rest of the back pain is due to terrible hamstring flexibility and not keeping up my core strengthening exercises.

My hands are not as comfortable on the hoods, the web between my thumb and 1st finger gets streached if I stay on the hoods for more than a mile. I found some MTB gloves that reduce this problem recently.

The seat adjustment is ok, I had this double checked at the bike shop.

Michael

Mike, I've found what the bike shop does for a fitting is not always what I stay with.

Re-reading the thread with a little more mental alertness, I'm struck by your comment about discomfort in the web of your hand. This to me may be a sign of excessive pressure on the handlebars. Raising the bars doesn't always relieve it in my experience. I think excessive hand pressure is caused by too much weight on the hands, or equivalently your weight is biased too far forward relative to the bottom bracket. My theory is that one of most important aspect of comfort is where your center of gravity is relative to this key support.

I would suggest sliding your saddle back on the seatpost perhaps 5 mm, and lower the seatpost by about 2 mm. This should allow you to balance back just a bit and maintain the same leg extension or knee angle. It's not big enough to cause a lot of acclimation difficulty, but it is big enough to test this theory.

Sometimes this repositioning leads me to get a little new perineal pressure. I compensate for it by dropping the nose of the saddle in the smallest possible increments. If I start to fall off the sit bone supports toward the front, I inch the nose back up until I'm again stable.

If this works, try raising or lowering the bar again a small amount to see if there is a handlebar position of minimum pressure. Also try to be sensitive to whether your reach is now too long. In light of the original back pain problem, you might benefit from a shorter stem.

Just a suggestion or two ... If you try any of this please let me know what happens.

Road Fan

Hi BF,

I've been repositioning my hands behind the hoods and the entire fit is better with no discomfort with the web of my hands. The load is more comfortable on my palms, as you helped to point out. I'm also noticing less of a load on my hands, arms and shoulders, since my torso is more upright.

I'm going to change the handlebars later this month to the FSA Compact and bring the hoods back so that the web of my hand is not supporting any of the weight of my torso.

I'll reposition the seat as you suggest, It's a solid suggestion.

Michael

Your bike looks great to me. Most of my rando friends ride bikes set up just like that. RF has good suggestions. Seconding what other people have said, I'd rotate your present bars CCW as seen in the photo, until the bar top behind the hoods is almost level. You should be able to put your forearms horizontal and have your wrists rest comfortably on the bar tops while you hold the hoods. You may find this position faster than using the drops, as the wind sees less of the cylinder of your arms.

Once you do that, a very comfortable grip is to put your thumb over the top of the brifter, 2 fingers above the lever and 2 below. You have to move your hand slightly to operate the brakes, but it's fine for all non-paceline activities. I use that position more than any other.

The other thing you can do is situps and hyperextensions, especially in the fall, and winter. Hey, you're doing great!

Your bike looks great to me. Most of my rando friends ride bikes set up just like that. RF has good suggestions. Seconding what other people have said, I'd rotate your present bars CCW as seen in the photo, until the bar top behind the hoods is almost level. You should be able to put your forearms horizontal and have your wrists rest comfortably on the bar tops while you hold the hoods. You may find this position faster than using the drops, as the wind sees less of the cylinder of your arms.

Once you do that, a very comfortable grip is to put your thumb over the top of the brifter, 2 fingers above the lever and 2 below. You have to move your hand slightly to operate the brakes, but it's fine for all non-paceline activities. I use that position more than any other.

The other thing you can do is situps and hyperextensions, especially in the fall, and winter. Hey, you're doing great!

These are great tips. I've made the changes and will test ride them tomorrow. I'll post the picks asap.

Michael

One reminder about "fit." Anyone trying to go through a change of fitness (weight loss) needs to understand that an unmeasurable aspect of weight is its affect on posture and flexibility.

I've argued against "new" cyclists getting professional fittings simply because their recent, casual attempt to define, or "find" their comfort level scheme.

Part of what I am trying to tell you to do -is go on and "error" on the other side - of a super-easy, upright fit. Lay into this fit with enthusiasm and build your strength and endurance - if you continue you can get get more aggressive later. In the mean time - your back incurs no injury and at least you get a chance to discover what bicycling "form" and "posture" mean. 80% of the people reading this never experience either.

Hi BF,

I've been repositioning my hands behind the hoods and the entire fit is better with no discomfort with the web of my hands. The load is more comfortable on my palms, as you helped to point out. I'm also noticing less of a load on my hands, arms and shoulders, since my torso is more upright.

I'm going to change the handlebars later this month to the FSA Compact and bring the hoods back so that the web of my hand is not supporting any of the weight of my torso.

I'll reposition the seat as you suggest, It's a solid suggestion.

Michael

If your hands are more comfortable pulled back from the hoods, you could try to reduce reach. You can to this by a shorter-reach bar and/or a shorter-extension stem. If you really like the bars, just change the stem. With what you've just experienced, you can estimate how much reach reduction you might benefit from. I'd probably start with measuring how far back my good hand spot is from my old hand position, and maybe move the brifter back by that distance minus a centimeter -- leave room to grow. As Richard pointed out, fit is dynamic. Problem is, many changes cost $$.

Road Fan.

It looks and sounds like you have the same problems as I do. I flipped the stem up to raise the bars, but they are still 1" below the saddle. Then I did the unthinkable. I moved the saddle forward 15mm. I checked for KOP and I was right where I had to be. I had the saddle as far back as it would go, (Brooks Swift ) to get more power to the pedal. Anyway with that I took a ride, put the pedals at 3 and 9, left go of the bars and I didn't move a bit. I tried everything that I could think of, because I was afraid to move the saddle forward, but it worked. I don't know if I'm done with it, but it feels a lot better than it was.

I would rotate the bars up a few degrees, so the top part of the bars are flat and the hoods point up a little bit more. This would reduce the pressure on your hands slightly and might fix the webbing problem.

Thanks for the good advice everyone. I rotated my handlebars so that the brifter are easier to reach. After a more relaxed 34 mile ride to day, I can report good news.


I stopped to stretch after 10 minutes of riding; I'll continue to do this.

I stayed on the hoods and off the drops. Had no pain from my hands due to full finger MTB gloves that take the load off of the web between my thumb and index finger. The hoods now feel much more comfortable and I felt I had better control, too.

I'm going to change my existing handlebars to an FSA "compact" type, and flip the stem in the up position.


I really pushed myself over the last 8 weeks. I rode very few miles from Thanksgiving to March, living in Chicago has its limits. I think my core strength will limit my performance more than leg strength or cardiovascular capacity. I should work on improving my flexibility and gradually increase core strength if I wish to ride as much as I have.

Michael