Great Lakes - 2 Man TT = FAIL!

OK, So I finally found a partner for the ABD Garden Prairie 2 man TT. In pre race discussions he says I was faster than him ... never said how much faster, ...

So we do some pre-race warm-ups and I realize he can't turn around. I gain about 30 seconds every time we try it. I finally give up. I was also concerned that I was dropping him a little on the warm up but didn't worry as maybe he was just taking it easy.

So ....

We roll to the line and his rear tire is nearly flat. The valve extender is leaking and we finally get enough air in it literally 10 seconds before the start. Not a good omen.

It was really windy, 20-30 mph with gusts, made riding with deep dish front and rear disc a decent challenge. It was pretty cold too. Off we go.

I start out and put about 100 feet on him at the start. I wait a bit and then go again. Look back, another 50 feet. Uh oh ... I wait for him to catch up again and slowly start to ramp the speed back up. We are only doing about 22 or 23 mph with a big tail wind. He signals to take a pull. I ease up ... he eventually pulls through ... and then slows down to 20 mph ... with the wind!

I wait a minute and my hr monitor shows under 70% and I pull ahead and say ... "Let me pull the whole time, just hold my wheel." and off I go. Cranked it up to just 28 and dropped him again. Now I know I've got trouble. I try to tell him to let me know when I can go stronger or when I should slow up. He says he's near his max. Ugghh! Now we're going really slow, literally below 15 mph on a section into the wind, with my pulling and sitting up to block the most wind. My HR is still barely 80% and I say this isn't working very well as I'm not getting a workout and we really aren't practicing much as we're not rotating or anything.

He says he'd like to try a little longer. Umm ... OK. We get to the turn around and I can't take it ... so I take off. I know it's not nice to do but I doubt he has ever cracked 1:15 on a 40k tt so he should have told me that and I wouldn't have wasted my time riding with him! Now I'm pretty pissed and cruising into a brutal headwind most of the way.

Now for the fun part. I had a turn from an angled wind into a strong head wind again. In this process, I'm in the aero drops and about 20 mph. As I make the turn, a pretty big gust hits me and I thought I corrected my line enough ... key word thought. As I near the exit of the turn, I realize I'm going too fast to stay on the road. There is about a 3" drop off onto gravel... a ditch, and then a farm field.

Boom, off the road, try for some brakes, hit the gully, fly over the handlebars, bike digs in ... carp!. Bounce up, nothing broken on me, a course guy right behind my in a car jumped out and grabs my bike, spins the wheels and it looks OK. I hop back in ... try to clip in with all the mud on my cleats ... and off I go. The guy laughs and says "Sure your OK?". It's funny, you'll see my heart rate rise in the crash ... little panic boy lol.

In total I was down for a little over 10 seconds. At least when I crash I do it quickly. Here are a couple shots.

Moral to the story ... 1. Pick a partner close to your fitness level. 2. Be careful with a rear disc in gusty conditions.

http://www.pbase.com/image/112362973/original.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/image/112362974/original.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/image/112362975/original.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/image/112362976/original.jpg


PS
I Suck! Crashing in a TT???

My neck is killing me and something in my left groin hurts. Still plan to ride today.

Your TTs are much more dangerous than my crits.

If you're worried about crashing, maybe you should try TTs.

Oh, wait...

Isn't riding a disc for the first time kind or like clip-ins ... you get one or two free crashes?

:roflmao2:

Oh ... sorry. :o

:lol:

Isn't riding a disc for the first time kind or like clip-ins ... you get one or two free crashes?

no.

http://raven.sitening.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/songbird/74_crash-reporter-1.png

You had gas too?:innocent:

:roflmao2: :roflmao2:

Stop it! :cry: :roflmao2:

Your killin' me!! :roflmao2: :cry:

Maybe you should get one of those cheap/trash bikes for TT :D

You guys are about the most unsuportive, negative, nasty, freakin,

funny


bastages ever. LOL

jeebus. from picking a crappy partner to crashing, that's just a really bad day.

glad you're ok though.

You guys are about the most unsuportive, negative, nasty, freakin,

funny


bastages ever. LOL

So . . . the real question here (its really hard to type this :roflmao2:), did you break an hour?

:roflmao2: :cry: :roflmao2:

That's funny, I don't recall being in a 2 man TT.

Umm.... I'm not going to post this in the actual ride thread because I don't want to alarm anyone and make them think it's actually canceled, but I'll let you know now... The Cross Plains Double or Nothing is canceled. I don't want to be responsible for you killing yourself bombing down hills at 78 mph and missing corners.

I did the same thing at Whitnall Park with no disc wheel. I'm just trying to make myself feel better by criticizing you. But I did learn a valuable lesson from the experience: Don't crash.

I did the same thing at Whitnall Park with no disc wheel. I'm just trying to make myself feel better by criticizing you. But I did learn a valuable lesson from the experience: Don't crash.

How's that working out for you ...

How's that working out for you ...

:roflmao2:

You guys are so brutal ... lol

Honestly, I think he's been in the money the past few races! :D

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2055740/money3-main_Full.jpg

Definitely.

Anyone still got a link to a certain Super Week crash?

How's that working out for you ...

Pretty well. I'm having my best season ever (so, in the last 3 years) so far. Aside from the Baraboo RR, in which I got shelled at the first scent of uphill, I've been pretty pleased with my results. After Muskego, I should move into 2nd place for the Cat 3 Wisconsin Cup.

Edit: Here's the video for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfs55TB9srg

But let's not forget what this thread is about. CC crashed in a 2 man TT.

Now, I can understand how a 2 man TT could be slightly more dangerous than a solo TT, but CC dropped his team mate.

That's the important thing here.

This thread reminded me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2oQUC_5fw0).... especially about 1 minute into the video.

So do we now go with ChickenChange or ColorChicken?

Here's some more inspirational TT footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uuCSZiLiBI&feature=channel

LOL ... man you guys are funny!

And it's true, I was definitely riding solo when I went down. No gravel, no hill, not even off camber ... just plain stupidity (and a little wind). Neck is still sore but groin seems fine. Had no problem riding yesterday as long as I didn't have to turn my head.

Should be all go for the Tuesday night stomp fest. And my "partner" sends the following e-mail:

So how are we feeling today. I was pretty tired. I feel bad we could not go as fast as we had hoped. Maybe i was having an off day. I hope you were not too sore from the wipeout. I am taking my wheel in and getting a new tire mounted. No more flats! Please let me know when the group is meeting. I really need some serious interval training.

Then again ... maybe you just suck! I really am ticked. If he was that damn slow I wouldn't have ridden with him and would have done it solo for the experience and training. I think he had an obligation to say "I can't ride anywhere near as fast as you ..." or something similar. I could have then made my decision. I was even OK to have him suck my wheel the whole way as at least I would be getting a decent workout, but he couldn't come close to doing that and I finally had enough and took off.

So, do I ?

1. not reply to the e-mail and let him go away
2. invite him to our rides (and he will get instantly shelled), even though I don't like him and don't think he would have a positive effect on group dynamics
3. send him and e-mail telling him why I'm ticked at him

CyLowe, at least he was going way faster than 20 mph and I think he even got up faster than my 10 seconds. A true pro!

It seems this guy is not very experienced with cycling. Perhaps he comes from a background with less brutal honesty, and more unfounded positivity. (These things have no place in cycling)

If I were you, I'd tell him when the group was meeting, but bluntly tell him he'll be remorselessly dropped from the group in short order. Sounds to me like he needs a good dose of the cold truth. Perhaps you could also point him to some other n00b-friendly rides where he can get his skills up.

At least he did say "he feels bad", so his heart is in the right place, at the very least. :)

So, do I ?
Step One: You need to let go of your expectations.


1. not reply to the e-mail and let him go away
2. invite him to our rides (and he will get instantly shelled), even though I don't like him and don't think he would have a positive effect on group dynamics
3. send him and e-mail telling him why I'm ticked at him

Do NOT do number 3. Don't be a d!ck about this.

I would suggest you chalk this up to a one time experience and then just LET IT GO. You took a chance and it did not pan out. Big friggin' deal. LET IT GO.

And if the guy is close enough to the PRP ride, let him know about it. You know there is a slower group that goes out on Tuesday nights. All are welcome.

i have to agree with cylowe. i know it was last minute, but maybe you should have ridden with him before the race to gauge his speed.

i would have volunteered, but i knew right away that i wouldn't be able to keep up with you. and you know this from riding with me. you'd have learned the same if you rode with him even the day before...

Tell him about the group. Mention that he should bring a map if he has an "off" night. People get the point after a ride or two. If they don't and they keep coming back for more then we call them psimet.

Btw - take a chill pill with him. This is supposed to be fun. There is no way to know how fast you can ride with someone until you ride with them. Give him the benefit of doubt.

This is supposed to be fun.
It is.

Wait..... it is? Is it?


Oh yeah.... it is! I almost forgot about the post ride beer.

the worst day riding a bike is better than the best day riding a desk chair.

I know of a couple of different time-trial events around the D-FW area. While they may have first-class riders competing in them, they are open to anyone, and the result is, you have some very fast people and some not-so-fast people as well. Looking at the results from your race, I see that they had age categories up to the 75+ ages, had a couple of people that took 2+ hours for the course, etc. Which is all fine and good, but tells me not everyone is as competitive as you might imagine. I understand this is very common in the triathlon world as well.

I'd say, reply to the email, say in a nice way that your speeds don't match, so you won't be trying that again. If you invite him to any rides, give him a good idea of the average speeds that you ride at, as opposed to just letting him show up and get dropped.

I agree with Cylowe. And do invite him along on the PRP ride.

You could always get even by telling him last one in buys . . . :innocent:

There is no way to know how fast you can ride with someone until you ride with them. Give him the benefit of doubt.

Psi, it's a 40k tt, you sure do know how fast you can ride. If you're 10 minutes or more slower than your partner, you have a big problem.

I plan to combine Stephan and Cy's advice, tell him nicely I'm out in the future and warn him of the pace and drop policies of the rides. I take no responsibility for his group riding skills as he was never able to demonstrate them to me ... lol

The outcome definitely sucked, but you can't be mad at the guy. He did say upfront that he was slower, maybe you should have asked how much slower. It's a team TT, I think you should have stuck together. I'm with Cylowe, chalk it up as a learning experience.

this was posted on the results sheet:

This was a TEAM race, you work TOGETHER, to ride a fast time. I know it feels good to drop another rider, but in a team time trial the stronger rider HELPS the TEAMMATE. This could be taking longer pulls, leading into the wind, sitting up to give more suction for your teammate or screaming loud enough in the last 200 meters that your teammate cannot hear the pain of lungs bursting and muscles tearing down.

The outcome definitely sucked, but you can't be mad at the guy. He did say upfront that he was slower, maybe you should have asked how much slower. It's a team TT, I think you should have stuck together. I'm with Cylowe, chalk it up as a learning experience.

So, I tell him my individual time trial time, he does not share his, only says vaguely "you're faster", and my obligation to follow up and ask "Well what is your fastest time?" is higher than his obligation to say "I am a lot slower and not sure we will work as a team?" That's some interesting logic IMO?

I was so upfront on my specific time, and added further details that it is was on a road bike with clip-ons in a deluge, but that I was not in as good of shape but now had a P3C with a disc. I was so specific so that I wouldn't be causing a severe mismatch. I assumed his lack of response meant he was within a minute or two of my time. That I could have lived with. I pull maybe 2/3 of the time, no problem. Even 3/4's of the time ... OK. But when he can't even hold my wheel while I'm sitting up and only at 75% heart rate ... this is a ridiculous problem and a complete waste of my time.

In fact, I don't believe he has been within 10 minutes of a 1 hour pace. This is a severe mismatch and it was HIS responsibility to step up and say ... "Houston, I think we have a problem." Instead, he wasted my time and had me become his partner under false pretenses, IMO. So, he got me there under a false pretense, and it's now my job to continue to suffer all the way to the end? Why?

Is it the end of the world ... no. Was it wrong on his part ... yes. Was he too inexperienced to know any better ... maybe. Do I care ... no, not really. I was deceived (knowingly or not) into becoming his partner and when I became aware of the problem that should have been disclosed at our first discussion, our "contract" was broken, and I dropped him.

In the future, will I ask for specific times? ... yes.


Let me add this ... Had I been the one who couldn't hold my partner's wheel ... I would have immediately said ... "Sorry, man, I can't hang with you. Take off and at least get some exercise." P.S. - I've done it before.

I wouldn't say you were in the wrong for dropping him. He probably could have got a faster time if you were blocking the wind for him, but that would have been worse than your solo time. At which point the purpose of a team time trial has already been defeated.

I would have done the same thing. The lead rider in a team time trial should never have to slow down to accommodate riders behind.

Might as well throw in the towel on the race and at least get a workout. Just watch out for the turns.

I wouldn't say you were in the wrong for dropping him. He probably could have got a faster time if you were blocking the wind for him, but that would have been worse than your solo time. At which point the purpose of a team time trial has already been defeated.

I would have done the same thing. The lead rider in a team time trial should never have to slow down to accommodate riders behind.

Might as well throw in the towel on the race and at least get a workout. Just watch out for the turns.

Burst out laughing at that part ... LOL

Buyer beware, I guess. :o

You could research his results online, and if you can't find any, then that's your opening: "I tried finding some of your times, but ... "

I'd offer more 'comps' next time. :innocent:

This thread has been.... illuminating.

You've got to let this go, CC. You had a bad experience. You searched and searched for a TT partner and took one on sight unseen. Stop feeling deceived and wronged.

Grow a pair and move on. Yapping about it like a yenta, talking down about a person who stepped up to your request, and assuming you were cornered into this undertaking ain't going to change the experience.

If your results and charts are all that matter when you're on two wheels, then you might be riding for the wrong reasons. It might have been a rewarding experience had you just said to yourself that the TT could be a perfect chance to help this other guy along no matter what your HR Monitor said you should be doing. I think you might have missed an opportunity of sorts.

I don't know that I know my 40 k tt time. that monsoon garden prairie one last yet wasn't 40k. It is quite a bit shorter.

That said I would have been a perfect tt partner for you. Sorry.

Master Cylowe has the wisdom of the sages.

Isn't the time you both record dictated by the second man to cross?

Isn't the time you both record dictated by the second man to cross?

No.

In other words, the time recorded is determined by the second rider to cross the line. CC (as I understand it) just realized that the official time was going to be crap anyway, and see what he could do solo.

This thread has been.... illuminating.

You've got to let this go, CC. You had a bad experience. You searched and searched for a TT partner and took one on sight unseen. Stop feeling deceived and wronged.

Grow a pair and move on. Yapping about it like a yenta, talking down about a person who stepped up to your request, and assuming you were cornered into this undertaking ain't going to change the experience.

If your results and charts are all that matter when you're on two wheels, then you might be riding for the wrong reasons. It might have been a rewarding experience had you just said to yourself that the TT could be a perfect chance to help this other guy along no matter what your HR Monitor said you should be doing. I think you might have missed an opportunity of sorts.

If you think it's cool to slow someone else down so badly that you will be 15 or 20 minutes slower together than the other guy will be alone, when you both have the stated expectation to be faster than an hour ... then that's you ... it certainly isn't me. :(


Hey Psi, that is the time I based my estimate on, and according to ABR, it was 39.8K.

http://www.ambikerace.com/2008/results/MATTSTeamBBC40K2008results.pdf

According to your time last year you could have said ... I did such and such time then, but I'm in much better shape now, have a dedicated tt bike, and should be able to hang with you ... and I'm sure you would have ... that's why I wanted you!:love:

No.

In other words, the time recorded is determined by the second rider to cross the line. CC (as I understand it) just realized that the official time was going to be crap anyway, and see what he could do solo.

Bingo!

I wasn't even able to work on my position etc. going turd slow and sitting up... it was pointless IMO!

How slow is turd slow and might I reccomend some laxative?

This thread has been.... illuminating.

This is turning into a "KEEP MY WHEEL OR I'LL YELL AT YOU" thread :rolleyes:

This is turning into a "KEEP MY WHEEL OR I'LL YELL AT YOU" thread :rolleyes:

Maybe I'm insensitive or something, but I think yelling would have been totally warranted in this situation. I mean, it's a race. I can't remember the last race I saw without yelling.

That said I would have been a perfect tt wheelsucker for you. Sorry.

Word!