Tandem Cycling - Cassette Carriers

TandemGeek mentioned that an Ultegra cassette cog embedded itself in the aluminum carrier of his Topolino wheels. We had the same problem with a titanium carrier. One of the cogs was very difficult to remove and left a deep indentation on the carrier. Has anyone else experienced this and is it a problem?

Hasn't happened on our Rolf Tandem wheels. But it's happened to several Zipp aluminum freehubs on my single bikes.

It's usually not a big issue. As you've found it can make cassette removal a little more difficult (pushing at the base of the cog with a screwdriver helps)

Worse case, it pulls all the way through the spline, and you have to get a new freehub body. But unless it gets to that point or is causing the cogs to move around, just ride it untill it wears out.

i have the same problem on my single bike. a chain whip works really well to twist the cogs back so that they can be removed. a lot easier and safer than a screwdriver

My American Classic wheels have an aluminum hub that the cogs put a groove into and can chew up the hub body American Classic makes these little shims that slide in and protect the hub body and stops the cogs from imbedding them self's into the hub.
Pdf file to show them you can order from them also I use them on my hub and stops the hub damage.
This is for Utegra 10 speed they make a set for DuraAce and 105 those can be found on the help page http://www.amclassic.com/help.php
Utegra 10 speed
http://www.amclassic.com/documents/help/web10_SpeedUltegra.pdf

I started to have this problem on one of my single bikes. I recently sold the wheelset to a friend, he has nine-speed stuff whereas mine is 10-speed, so his cogs rest in a different place than mine, meaning that the cassette carrier is effectively mostly new again for him.

American Classic makes these little shims that slide in and protect the hub body and stops the cogs from imbedding them self's into the hub.

That's GREAT information. I did not know such a thing had been developed and will have to investigate further.

That's GREAT information. I did not know such a thing had been developed and will have to investigate further.

They are really hard to find, if you happen to find a source let us all know.

Listed in the FAQ but not on the site, they are called Clip Pins.
http://www.amclassic.com/faq.php

http://www.amclassic.com/documents/help/web10_SpeedUltegra.pdf
http://www.amclassic.com/documents/help/web10_SpeedDuraAce.pdf
http://www.amclassic.com/documents/help/web10_Speed105.pdf

Give them a call @ 800-813-5545 they sell them for $14.99 I got a few sets last year at that price could be a little more now.
But worth it to save your hub.
They list them as 10 Speed Clip/Pin Kit - for Shimano 10 speed Cassettes it comes with pins for all the Cassettes 105\Utegra and DuraAce simple little things but work great!.
The new hubs this year are still aluminum but they have machined in a hardened piece into the hub so these are no longer needed.

They are really hard to find, if you happen to find a source let us all know.

As JT noted, just call American Classic direct @ 800-813-5545 and speak with Clay or Jeremy. They are still $14.95. Very helpful and accommodating folks to say the least.

As JT noted, just call American Classic direct @ 800-813-5545 and speak with Clay or Jeremy. They are still $14.95. Very helpful and accommodating folks to say the least.

Yes they are very nice and helpful which is hard to get these days! you actually get to talk to the people who own the place not to mention a live person answers the phone on the other end. :thumb:

the clip pins are a cool idea, but are they only for the 11 and 12? i need them for all the other single cogs.

i was thinking more along the lines of a flat steel bar that would sit at the edge of the spline(s) so that the cogs would push steel on steel rather than steel into aluminum.

the clip pins are a cool idea, but are they only for the 11 and 12? i need them for all the other single cogs.

11t and 12t refers to the different size cassettes, i.e., an 12x27t is a bit different than an 11x23t.

The clip/pins sit under the four loose cogs that cause all of the damage.

the clip pins are a cool idea, but are they only for the 11 and 12? i need them for all the other single cogs.

i was thinking more along the lines of a flat steel bar that would sit at the edge of the spline(s) so that the cogs would push steel on steel rather than steel into aluminum.

No they take care of all the single cogs the last three are ok so on a 10 speed it covers the first 4 cogs, after the cluster in on then you start with the single cogs and spacers with the clip pins installed.

No they take care of all the single cogs the last three are ok so on a 10 speed it covers the first 4 cogs, after the cluster in on then you start with the single cogs and spacers with the clip pins installed.

I take it that with non-American Classic hubs you do not need the American Classic spacer that goes behind that Shimano spacer. Is this correct?

This came up on another thread, and I believe it was TG who suggested riding in a bigger front chainring than you would on your single to keep the chain down onto the cogs which are on a carrier. That's not much help if your team has the strength to hammer in big gears and you do a lot of it, but it's helped keep my hub nice. Less chain tension, so perhaps slightly increased life there, too.

better pics of the product would help.

i wonder if using the little bolts that are used to hold cheaper cassettes together would work on spreading the load across more of the individual cogs. i'm too lazy to go to the garage and see if the cogs eve have the holes for the bolts/pins.

I take it that with non-American Classic hubs you do not need the American Classic spacer that goes behind that Shimano spacer. Is this correct?

Correct just use in the original Shimano installation.

better pics of the product would help.

i wonder if using the little bolts that are used to hold cheaper cassettes together would work on spreading the load across more of the individual cogs. i'm too lazy to go to the garage and see if the cogs eve have the holes for the bolts/pins.

Since I actually do use these I will take some photos after this weekend’s ride if people are interested in what they look like but they are just as the diagram shows they are small.
I don't want to take it apart before my ride this weekend.
I do think I have the spares they sent which I can take a photo of without me disassembling my hub.

I don't want to take it apart before my ride this weekend.

I'll save you the trouble... I just received two sets: slick as baby shiat.


better pics of the product would help.

In the attached photos below you'll see what you receive when you buy the clip set: 3 clips for 11 speed DA cassettes, 3 clips for 12 speed Ultegra cassettes and 3 pins for 105 cassettes + a spacer in the event you need it along with comprehensive instructions.

Now, if you're like me you probably didn't think much about the reduced number of splines on the new 10 speed cassettes until they mangled your cassette carrier: thanks Shimano. Anyway, the clips slide into the very large voids where the extra spline teeth 'should' be. I removed a cog and spacer so that you can see the clip sitting in the void under one of the other spacers, semi-exposed. If you've ever had sex you can do this... just slide the clip in the little opening. Repeat two more times and you're done. They go about their business out of sight and out of mind. About as slick as can be.
.

I'll save you the trouble... I just received two sets: slick as baby shiat.



In the attached photos below you'll see what you receive when you buy the clip set: 3 clips for 11 speed DA cassettes, 3 clips for 12 speed Ultegra cassettes and 3 pins for 105 cassettes + a spacer in the event you need it along with comprehensive instructions.

Now, if you're like me you probably didn't think much about the reduced number of splines on the new 10 speed cassettes until they mangled your cassette carrier: thanks Shimano. Anyway, the clips slide into the very large voids where the extra spline teeth 'should' be. I removed a cog and spacer so that you can see the clip sitting in the void under one of the other spacers, semi-exposed. If you've ever had sex you can do this... just slide the clip in the little opening. Repeat two more times and you're done. They go about their business out of sight and out of mind. About as slick as can be.
.

Thanks TandemGeek was about to take it apart!
I have had these on my hub for quite some time and they have worked great. Amazing that something so simple can work so good.
Hats off to them for these little gems!.

this is exactly what i was thinking...
a piece of steel on the freehub body for the cogs to hit against instead gouging into the softer material

from velonews
http://velonews.com/files/images/amclassic04.jpg

My American Classic wheels have an aluminum hub that the cogs put a groove into and can chew up the hub body American Classic makes these little shims that slide in and protect the hub body and stops the cogs from imbedding them self's into the hub.
Pdf file to show them you can order from them also I use them on my hub and stops the hub damage.
This is for Utegra 10 speed they make a set for DuraAce and 105 those can be found on the help page http://www.amclassic.com/help.php
Utegra 10 speed
http://www.amclassic.com/documents/help/web10_SpeedUltegra.pdf

Thanks for the heads up on these. I got mine yesterday and installed on my just returned PowerTap SL that has an Al cassette body.

I just got it back from Saris and they replaced the very chewed up body with a new one during my ANT+ upgrade, so it should keep it in good shape.

The torque spec for cassette lockrings is 30 lb/ft. That's huge! Nobody tightens lockrings that much unless they're using a torque wrench. I used to wonder why that spec was so stout. Then another poster told me that keeping the lockring tight locks all of the loose cogs together and prevents an individual cog from digging into the freehub body.

Now, if you're like me you probably didn't think much about the reduced number of splines on the new 10 speed cassettes until they mangled your cassette carrier: thanks Shimano.
.

To be fair, this isn't a problem caused by Shimano. All Shimano Al cassettes are high spline and don't mangle.

The fault is with other mfgs that thought low spline Al freehub bodies were a good idea. Once again, chasing a few grams at the loss of durability. AC's steel insert is really how they Al bodies should have been made from the start.

But this was an easy and inexpensive fix, so I'm happy with it.

The IRD 10sp 12-30 cassettes have a full set of splines. I'll see whether these dig into the hub.

The shifting with this cassette seems just as nice as a Shimano 12-27 cassette. Could the problem people have been having with IRD cassettes be the large jump from the 28 cog to the 34 cog?

To be fair, this isn't a problem caused by Shimano. All Shimano Al cassettes are high spline and don't mangle.

Horsepucky...

While it's true that aluminum cassette carriers are routinely buggered-up by loose sprockets, Shimano exacerbated the condition with it's 10 speed cassettes, ostensibly as part of their on-going efforts to lock consumers into Shimano components via proprietary and non-standard specifications.

For some inexplicable reasons known only to Shimano, they (a) reduced the number of sprockets mounted to carriers that distribute loads over the hub carrier splines, (b) eliminated 40% of the spline contact surface on their previously loose 12t - 16t sprockets (which was bad enough), but (c) left the 17t & 19t sprockets loose with 40% less contact surface.

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/Calfee/cassettes_l.jpg


The most significant difference in these cassettes is how the high-torque generating, taller sprockets (the ones with more than 17 teeth) are grouped together. As you can see in the photo above, the XT / mountain bike cassette has the 5 tallest sprockets attached to a one piece spider that distributes the loads on any one of the 5 sprockets over a large portion of the hub's cassette carrier. The Ultegra 9 speed clustered the 3 tallest sprockets together and then the next 2 tallest together which accomplishes almost the same thing and, in fact, makes the 15t sprocket the first single load bearing sprocket to sit on the carrier. However, as you can see the 10 speed Ultegra only groups together the 3 tallest sprockets and lets 19t and 17t sprockets individually bear the full brunt of the drive train loads on the cassette carrier through a very narrow 1.6mm contact patch. If that weren't bad enough, the individual Ultegra (and DuraAce) cassette sprockets are also missing a few spline teeth which exacerbates the loading on the remaining six. If the loads are big enough, the individual sprockets will be pressed into the standard lightweight aluminum alloy cassette carriers and create small indentations or dimples in each of the cassette carrier's splines.

Shame on me for not doing enough homework before buying a Shimano 10 speed Ultegra cassette, as had I done that I would have most like bought a different brand of 10 speed cassettes. As it is, I now must drop $100 on a replacement cassette carrier for our Topolino wheelset AND will probably have to drop more $$ on a new cassette from someone like SRAM or IRD that won't mangle Topolino's hard-anodized but still wimpy carrier body.

Well, I kind of get your point and I completely agree that the high spline 7800/7801 hub was a real loser... But is there really an industry standard specification for the free hub/cassette interface?

I mean, it's called Shimano compatible, so by definition, if it doesn't fit or work with *real* Shimano parts, it's *not* Shimano compatible, it's something else. I don't think they're trying to lock you into anything. If IRD, SRAM and all the other people that make wheels and hubs nowadays wanted to truly create an industry standard and not just follow Shimano, I don't think anybody would stop them. I just don't think that anybody would buy their stuff either.

I would make the same argument for "Campy compatible" stuff as well. If you claim to make a Campy compatible cassette, but it won't work on a Campy hub, or if you make a Campy compatible hub, but a Campy cassette damages it, then Campy would not be to blame either.

And I don't understand your issue with the Ultegra FH-6600 hub. It is a low spline steel body so any 9/10 cassette should work on it.

the solution is to get a 9/10 speed steel cassette body, or get a 10speed only alloy cassette body which has taller splines which are less prone to notching

Well, I kind of get your point ...

Hmmmm. Maybe.


the solution is to get a 9/10 speed steel cassette body, or get a 10speed only alloy cassette body which has taller splines which are less prone to notching

Actually, the real solution is to rid myself of the last two Shimano components that exist in our stable: cassettes and chains.

Seriously though, I would LOVE to hear the honest truth behind why Shimano removed the three spline teeth from it's individual cogs. If there was any technical merit beyond delivering a coup de grâce to the firms that were already using aluminum cassette carriers to coincide with Shimano's introduction of it's own aluminum cassette carrier with a new spline pattern (albeit a short-lived one), I'd be impressed.

It seems pretty clear to me that Shimano knew many consumers would want to upgrade their bikes to Shimano's new 10 speed equipment and this presented an opportunity for Shimano to smack around the boutique wheelset and hub builders vis-a-vis messing with the consumer in an effort to drive consumers back to Shimano integrated wheelsets and / or hubs.

That's the rub.... What I perceive to be Shimano's marketing methods and willingness to inflict collateral damage to the consumer as a way of driving them to their products. I'm just one of those weirdo's who likes to be treated as an educated consumer who will compare products based on features and factual data, not fed a line or subtly locked into a proprietary standard that may or may not be to my benefit.

Agree TG on ridding yourself of those pesky hubs. Campag's grease system used to be a favourite for UK rainy weather.

Regarding the Shimano chains I recently got a 7900 groupset and the chain link is a work of art. Apart from dodging Sram and Wipperman patents it has the major advantage that one link carries both pins so that when you come to fit the chain it's held by the one link. Similarly when take it apart you don't have to grab the whole thing as the two side plates fly apart.

And I don't understand your issue with the Ultegra FH-6600 hub.

I don't either... since I don't have any Shimano hubs. I do have many, many Shimano Cassettes that work just fine on hubs from Phil Wood, White Industries, Chris King, Rolf (White Ind), Topolino... with the exception of one: that weird and klugged-up 10 speed cassette with the un-pinned 17t & 19t sprockets that are missing three teeth on all of the loose cogs. Still waiting for a technical explanation from anyone who's willing to take a shot at it.


Agree TG on ridding yourself of those pesky hubs.

See above.

I didn't notice it mentioned above so I'll update this thread... the American Classic Shimano cassette clips do NOT fit the Ultegra 10 speed cassette, at least without some aftermarket adjustment. I contacted American Classic to confirm - they do not make a set of Ultegra 10 speed clips.

The problem is that the Ultegra clips are too tall for the cassette (the DuraAce clips are too short) and they stick out above the top sprocket instead of flush. The fix is to take each tall clip and grind the height down to the point where it sits flush with the top sprocket. Others in this forum have recommended this fix and it is pretty much the only way to aleviate the Ultegra "missing spline" gouging.

I contacted American Classic to confirm - they do not make a set of Ultegra 10 speed clips.

Did they discontinue them? Whatever they sold me -- I haven't bother to go and check my documentation -- slipped right in to the Ultegra 10 speed cassette without any trouble and worked just fine.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=105156&d=1242571789/?w=300