Training & Nutrition - weight training and cycling?

Arh, now that's where everyone is going wrong... seasonal weight training... why?

All the sports science research indicates weight training does not improve power output, BUT all the research is flawed. Why? 1- Because most of it has used untrained subjects, unaccustomed to weight training and cycling. 2 - No studies have looked beyond 10wks. 30yrs of research has shown changes in strength happen in two stages, the first taking up to 10wks is completely neural. Improvements in strength beyond this are in actual cross sectional area. So... if all of the research that has shown no improvement in power output from studies lastly less than 10wks, then isn't that not really answering the question? I think not.

So back to the original seasonal thing. If it takes time to build neural strength then increase force through increases in muscle cross sectional area (hypertrophy), then why only just spend enough time getting started and then quit when the season starts?

It makes sense to me that for road training we spend time building a base, building "bike specific" strength through big gears, spend time building speed. BUT why don't we do the same for with weight training? It takes time to build a "strength" base so why not carry it on, coinciding weight training "base" with road base, weight training "strength" with road strength, etc.

With the correct sets, reps and frequency of training weight training is definitely a good way to improve power. Even if it is indirect. If you aren't convinced its the go for your legs, at least improve your trunk strength to provide a solid platform for your legs to power from. Afterall a door with loose hinges doesn't close properly does it? Then why

IMHO saying weight training does not help cycling what so ever is counter intuitive. Plus I find it hard to believe (not saying Ric is wrong just I find it hard to believe) that a "normal" human" can develop the same power as a pro even for a very short period of time. I always thought they could put out more power than a cyclist on a lower level but I know a lot less than this subject than I want to admit.

IMHO saying weight training does not help cycling what so ever is counter intuitive. Plus I find it hard to believe (not saying Ric is wrong just I find it hard to believe) that a "normal" human" can develop the same power as a pro even for a very short period of time. I always thought they could put out more power than a cyclist on a lower level but I know a lot less than this subject than I want to admit.

it possibly is counter intuitive if you've never used a power meter. the only real difference in power occurs in peak power between (e.g.) 200-m track sprinters and everyone else.

apart from a few exceptions (e.g., frail old ladies, people with certain functional disabilities, etc) on average untrained, healthy, age, gender and mass matched sedentary controls can generate the forces and powers required in e.g., elite cycling.

for e.g., we can estimate that when racing up the Ventoux the other week in the Dauphine Libere, the top 5 would have been ~ 6.x W/kg (e.g., a 70 kg rider would generate ~ 420 W). You'd be hard pushed to find a male who couldn't generate that, and most males can generate ~ 1000 W (in e.g., a sprint). it's the issue of sustaining this power for a period of time that is required (e.g., at the Ventoux it was 56ish mins). As a rider of ~mass, i can generate that power when out training. however, i can only do this for several minutes. Untrained riders might only be able to do this for seconds. thus, it isn't strength that limits us, but cardiovascular and metabolic issues, which are trained by increasing VO2max, and LT.

ric

Arh, now that's where everyone is going wrong... seasonal weight training... why?
With the correct sets, reps and frequency of training weight training is definitely a good way to improve power. Even if it is indirect. If you aren't convinced its the go for your legs, at least improve your trunk strength to provide a solid platform for your legs to power from. Afterall a door with loose hinges doesn't close properly does it? Then why

weight training will only increase peak power (sprint), however, 1) for endurance cycling (not track 200-m) this can be done equally well on the bike, 2) even though it will increase peak power equally well as cycle sprint training, it will be at the detriment of endurance cycling performance as you will weigh more (no power increases for cycling uphill from weight training and thus it will slow you down) and it will dilute your mitochondrial and capillary density, which will adversely affect your aerobic power

ric

I guess that I don't understand why weight training is a standard for endurance athletes in marathon, triathlon, distance swimming, cross-country skiing, etc., but doesn't work for cyclists in general particularly when Lance and Tyler do it.

Another point about weight training is that there are many different techniques for weight training, depending on whether you're looking for explosiveness, peak strength, etc. A study which compares those who train like power-lifters vs. those who don't won't really show whether there are potential benefits for cyclists.

I guess that I don't understand why weight training is a standard for endurance athletes in marathon, triathlon, distance swimming, cross-country skiing, etc., but doesn't work for cyclists in general particularly when Lance and Tyler do it.


there are lots of sports where weight training is "standard", and this is true for endurance cycle racing racing too. however, it is a myth, or an old wives tale that it's beneficial.

just because some pros may or may not weight train doesn't mean it's good. there's a certain amount of pros who take drugs, but i don't see you saying we should take those because the pros (may) take drugs.




Another point about weight training is that there are many different techniques for weight training, depending on whether you're looking for explosiveness, peak strength, etc. A study which compares those who train like power-lifters vs. those who don't won't really show whether there are potential benefits for cyclists.

there is *no* evidence that shows any benefit to endurnace cycling performance in trained cyclists.

ric

Doesn't look like anything even close to being etched in stone with a lot of room for futher testing with Stern himself saying weight training needs to be specific to do any good. A lot of weight training is done in the winter so you are at a new level when cycling season starts in the spring, strength can then be gained by training on the bike. If time is limited you will gain power quicker with weights and bike then just biking.

Seasonal weight training. Now that's where I believe everyone is going wrong. We spend weeks building our aerobic base, our on the bike strength base, our speed, but only weight training in the winter! What's the point! It takes time to build strength through weight training. The last 30yrs of sports science research shows most of the strength improvements in the first 8 to 10wks of a weight training program are from neural changes (ie. better motor unit recruitment). Only after this time, do strength improvements come from actual changes in muscle fibre size (hypertrophy), which will change force generating capacity of the individual fibres (and possibly power output).

It makes sense to advocate periodized weight training coinciding with periodized road training so doing the base work together, doing on the bike strength and gym strength together etc. The only consideration is do you have time? If you are limited it makes sense to be as specific as possible and concentrate on the road. But if you do have the time then do it properly.

Sure no research supports weight training for road cycling, but when you look at indepth, it is flawed. Very few studies have actually used trained cyclists, and of those none have surpassed 10wks of weight training. So really we can't make conclusive arguments against weight training for road cycling.

If you aren't convinced to weight train for direct improvements in power, as least consider improving trunk/pelvic and abdominal strength using gym or home based exercises. The stronger this region is, the more solid a platform has for the legs to lever from. If its weak and slopping, less power will be transferred to the pedals. After all, a door with loose hinges doesn't close properly now does it?

What I ment by weight training in the winter was that you focus more in the winter months with the weights and maintain that thru the summer with a reduced program. Then pick up the more intense progam over the winter again and increase your strength and maintain the gains in the biking season by riding your bunns off. Plus you will get stronger in the biking season right Ric?

I just read that Lance can put out 750 watts of power for one hour-now thats what I'm talking about.

Sure no research supports weight training for road cycling, but when you look at indepth, it is flawed. Very few studies have actually used trained cyclists, and of those none have surpassed 10wks of weight training. So really we can't make conclusive arguments against weight training for road cycling.


although there is limited research, there are several studies that have used well trained or elite cyclists. however, we *can* make conclusive statements on a few levels.

1) if there's no increase in muscle cross sectional area, then the gains are neuromuscular -- these do not transfer to a different modality as the gains are specific to the joint angle and velocity at which they're trained

2) with increases in muscle cross sectional area (MCSA), peak (sprint) power is increased. however, you now have more mass that has to be e.g., lugged uphill, which will obviously increase your power output demand at the same velocity (as if you weighed less) or slow you down at the same power (compared to if you weighed less). increases in MCSA in trained riders *only* increases peak power and does not increase e.g., sustainable power

3) with increases in MCSA (in trained riders) there will be a decrease in mitochondrial and capillary density, which will slow the unloading of O2 within the muscle and be detrimental to performance

4) by looking at the physics of cycling you can calculate the forces required to travel at specific power outputs. Nowhere (except standing starts, and how important is this for endurance cycling performance*) are forces so high that untrained, age, gender and healthy matched controls can't meet them. for e.g., if you look at someone in the top 5 in the recent Mont Ventoux TT at the Dauphin Libere, the estimated average force of each pedal rev is ~ 250 Newtons (~ 25 kg) between both legs. You'd be hard pressed to find a male who couldn't reach that level.

Thus, with the available evidence, using first principles and looking at data in different exercise modalities it's possible to come to conclusive statement, that weight training in trained riders isn't beneficial and is likely detrimental.




If you aren't convinced to weight train for direct improvements in power, as least consider improving trunk/pelvic and abdominal strength using gym or home based exercises. The stronger this region is, the more solid a platform has for the legs to lever from. If its weak and slopping, less power will be transferred to the pedals. After all, a door with loose hinges doesn't close properly now does it?


again, this is a "myth", the forces required to stabilise your trunk and body on the bike are very low and virtually anyone has the requisite force generating capability to do this. if you haven't got the ability to stabilise yourself, then you won't be worried about cycling in the slightest!

ric

*answer: not at all

What I ment by weight training in the winter was that you focus more in the winter months with the weights and maintain that thru the summer with a reduced program. Then pick up the more intense progam over the winter again and increase your strength and maintain the gains in the biking season by riding your bunns off. Plus you will get stronger in the biking season right Ric?

but being stronger doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to endurance cycling performance for people who are healthy and don't have e.g., a functional disability. you then have increased mass to drag around and this is detrimental. to get better at cycling (and assuming you do endurance cycle racing, i.e., any race >90-secs) you need to increase some measure of your sustainable power output (e.g., LT, VO2max).

Lance, or anyone can't put out 750 W for an hour or even anywhere close to that! At around ~ 900 W, you're into the realm of the worlds best kilo track TT riders. The upper limit of endurance performance is ~ 6.5 W/kg for an hour, i.e., ~ 470 W for an hour for LA.

Ric