markjay
06-04-04, 10:33 AM
Any tips or reading suggestions for approaches to combining weight training and cycling for maximum positive effect (strength, health, endurance, injury prevention, etc.)?
Mark
Mark
Training & Nutrition - weight training and cycling?
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06-04-04, 11:08 AM
Any tips or reading suggestions for approaches to combining weight training and cycling for maximum positive effect (strength, health, endurance, injury prevention, etc.)?
Mark
i got a book recently called "serious cycling", which has a chapter or two devoted to weight training. it focuses mainly on streching, partial squats, lunges, etc. a very good book IMO. it's a newish book and would be available at any large bookstore (i got mine at barnes and nobel) - has lance armstrong (of course) on the front.
Mark
i got a book recently called "serious cycling", which has a chapter or two devoted to weight training. it focuses mainly on streching, partial squats, lunges, etc. a very good book IMO. it's a newish book and would be available at any large bookstore (i got mine at barnes and nobel) - has lance armstrong (of course) on the front.
dirty tiger
06-11-04, 11:06 PM
http://p086.ezboard.com/bbulkandpower48873
http://www.crossfit.com/
http://www.crossfit.com/
JustsayMo
06-13-04, 09:18 AM
When I first began racing I believe strength training would NOT be good for my performance. I did all my training on the bike. Specificity was my mantra.
After years of only riding I stopped seeing improvment and began having pain in my knees, low back and neck. I took up lifting weights and corrected the imbalances. Even though I was in my mid 30's my performance began to improve. By the time I reached my late 30's I was setting PRs in the events I competed in (Flying 200, Pursuit, Kilo, 40 km TT... etc). My max sprint speed improved too.
I only regret not starting sooner.
After years of only riding I stopped seeing improvment and began having pain in my knees, low back and neck. I took up lifting weights and corrected the imbalances. Even though I was in my mid 30's my performance began to improve. By the time I reached my late 30's I was setting PRs in the events I competed in (Flying 200, Pursuit, Kilo, 40 km TT... etc). My max sprint speed improved too.
I only regret not starting sooner.
pacesetter
06-13-04, 01:59 PM
When I first began racing I believe strength training would NOT be good for my performance. I did all my training on the bike. Specificity was my mantra.
After years of only riding I stopped seeing improvment and began having pain in my knees, low back and neck. I took up lifting weights and corrected the imbalances. Even though I was in my mid 30's my performance began to improve. By the time I reached my late 30's I was setting PRs in the events I competed in (Flying 200, Pursuit, Kilo, 40 km TT... etc). My max sprint speed improved too.
I only regret not starting sooner.
Was most likely because you started training , lifting weights does not make a cyclist faster.
you say years of "only riding" so you did not have a cycling training plan?
After years of only riding I stopped seeing improvment and began having pain in my knees, low back and neck. I took up lifting weights and corrected the imbalances. Even though I was in my mid 30's my performance began to improve. By the time I reached my late 30's I was setting PRs in the events I competed in (Flying 200, Pursuit, Kilo, 40 km TT... etc). My max sprint speed improved too.
I only regret not starting sooner.
Was most likely because you started training , lifting weights does not make a cyclist faster.
you say years of "only riding" so you did not have a cycling training plan?
pacesetter
06-13-04, 02:06 PM
Any tips or reading suggestions for approaches to combining weight training and cycling for maximum positive effect (strength, health, endurance, injury prevention, etc.)?
Mark
A good tip is if you want to improve on the bike, lifting weights will NOT HELP.
Mark
A good tip is if you want to improve on the bike, lifting weights will NOT HELP.
PTVegas
06-13-04, 03:41 PM
A good tip is if you want to improve on the bike, lifting weights will NOT HELP.
Better tell Lance no 6th title since he lifts weights. ;) :rolleyes:
http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/training
Better tell Lance no 6th title since he lifts weights. ;) :rolleyes:
http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/training
bpohl
06-13-04, 04:52 PM
I don't know for sure, but my gut feeling says that doing upper body exercise would not necessarily help you get faster, but it may help you be smoother and more efficient on the bike. After losing 170 lbs, I know that lost every bit of muscle in my upper body, yet have retained enormous leg muscles. I'm hesitant to get into the weight room and work my upper body, since I want any weight gain to come from lean muscle in my legs; but I do feel like bulking up slightly up top would help me be a much smoother rider. I think that this would help especially during sprints, where my bike is usually wobbling around uncontrollably under me.
As far as working the legs... again, I think sprints could be improved by several sets of low reps and high weight, but I imagine that any increase in endurance from hitting the weight room would be marginal. That would seem to come only from being in the saddle for hours on end.
As far as working the legs... again, I think sprints could be improved by several sets of low reps and high weight, but I imagine that any increase in endurance from hitting the weight room would be marginal. That would seem to come only from being in the saddle for hours on end.
JustsayMo
06-13-04, 10:41 PM
Was most likely because you started training , lifting weights does not make a cyclist faster.
you say years of "only riding" so you did not have a cycling training plan?
I did have a training plan AND a COACH! I'd ride fixed gear in the off season, build a base early season and gradually add intensity and volume. By my first race I'd have an excellent base, had event specific training and was building toward my goal events (usually the state championships). Wouldn't you call that a "cycling training plan?" I have YEARS of training logs without lifting an ounce.
By the time I began lifting weights my cylcing performance was declining and I just figured I had passed my peak and was over the hill (mid 30's). I introduced weightlifting to my above training regime and I began to see improved results the first season. In my last year racing (39 years old) I set personal bests in my Flying 200, Kilo, Pursuit & 40 kilometer time trials. I also set a new personal best max speed in a sprint (on the velodrome) that year.
I know that cyclists resist weights as body builders resist cardio because I *was* one of them. Once I let go of my bias I discovered the benefits of strength training (lifting weights). The results were obvious to me. I say again, I only wish I had known the benefits when I was in my twenties...
I was just like you pacesetter, a skeptic and a disbeliever. I was even critical of teamates that lifted weights. Now I realize how foolish and ingnorant I was. Lance lifts, Tyler lifts... The myth will eventually die as it seems to have in other sports (like baseball) because of fear of being "muscle bound." It may not work for you, but it did for me.
Mo
you say years of "only riding" so you did not have a cycling training plan?
I did have a training plan AND a COACH! I'd ride fixed gear in the off season, build a base early season and gradually add intensity and volume. By my first race I'd have an excellent base, had event specific training and was building toward my goal events (usually the state championships). Wouldn't you call that a "cycling training plan?" I have YEARS of training logs without lifting an ounce.
By the time I began lifting weights my cylcing performance was declining and I just figured I had passed my peak and was over the hill (mid 30's). I introduced weightlifting to my above training regime and I began to see improved results the first season. In my last year racing (39 years old) I set personal bests in my Flying 200, Kilo, Pursuit & 40 kilometer time trials. I also set a new personal best max speed in a sprint (on the velodrome) that year.
I know that cyclists resist weights as body builders resist cardio because I *was* one of them. Once I let go of my bias I discovered the benefits of strength training (lifting weights). The results were obvious to me. I say again, I only wish I had known the benefits when I was in my twenties...
I was just like you pacesetter, a skeptic and a disbeliever. I was even critical of teamates that lifted weights. Now I realize how foolish and ingnorant I was. Lance lifts, Tyler lifts... The myth will eventually die as it seems to have in other sports (like baseball) because of fear of being "muscle bound." It may not work for you, but it did for me.
Mo
pacesetter
06-13-04, 10:53 PM
Better tell Lance no 6th title since he lifts weights. ;) :rolleyes:
http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/training
Now do you realy think lance and his coach would give away a real training plan?? im not gonna go any further with this because people who can't get common sense piss me off !! how does bench pressing make you faster on the ****in bike!! ALL THE TRAINING BOOKS INCLUDE A LIFTING PLAN!!!!! lifting weights will do a TRAINED CYCList NO ****IN GOOD on the bike as far as performance, nuff said.
http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/training
Now do you realy think lance and his coach would give away a real training plan?? im not gonna go any further with this because people who can't get common sense piss me off !! how does bench pressing make you faster on the ****in bike!! ALL THE TRAINING BOOKS INCLUDE A LIFTING PLAN!!!!! lifting weights will do a TRAINED CYCList NO ****IN GOOD on the bike as far as performance, nuff said.
JustsayMo
06-13-04, 11:06 PM
Now do you realy think lance and his coach would give away a real training plan?? im not gonna go any further with this because people who can't get common sense piss me off !! how does bench pressing make you faster on the ****in bike!! ALL THE TRAINING BOOKS INCLUDE A LIFTING PLAN!!!!! lifting weights will do a TRAINED CYCList NO ****IN GOOD on the bike as far as performance, nuff said.
You're obviously right. Pro cyclists who "give away real training plans" are really just trying to get an edge on their competitors. Coach Carmicheal is just ripping off all those athletes that are paying him big bucks for the CTS program. I am obviously mistaken in my observations. Whatever pacesetter says is true.
Who are we to question the almighty pacesetter? ;^)
You're obviously right. Pro cyclists who "give away real training plans" are really just trying to get an edge on their competitors. Coach Carmicheal is just ripping off all those athletes that are paying him big bucks for the CTS program. I am obviously mistaken in my observations. Whatever pacesetter says is true.
Who are we to question the almighty pacesetter? ;^)
sm266
06-13-04, 11:10 PM
Lifting upper body and core helps me climb better because my arms and abs can help my legs when they're tired. On sprints, I have more control over the bike, and I'm able to throw the bike forward with my arms. My body doesn't fatigue as quickly, either.
In mountain bike races, I can bunny hop better, as well as pull much nicer wheelies and climb faster over loose terrain. Upper body strength is very important when riding singletrack as well as road (have you ever had to power up a hill pushing and pulling on the bars at the same time?.)
Lifting and strength training does not mean "bodybuilder" muscle; PRACTICAL muscle is key. Haven't we had this discussion a lot, already?
In mountain bike races, I can bunny hop better, as well as pull much nicer wheelies and climb faster over loose terrain. Upper body strength is very important when riding singletrack as well as road (have you ever had to power up a hill pushing and pulling on the bars at the same time?.)
Lifting and strength training does not mean "bodybuilder" muscle; PRACTICAL muscle is key. Haven't we had this discussion a lot, already?
Alrocket
06-14-04, 05:11 AM
im not gonna go any further with this because people who can't get common sense piss me off !!
nuff said.
You said it mate...
nuff said.
You said it mate...
oldspark
06-14-04, 10:02 PM
Hey pacesetter what rock have you been living under?
531Aussie
06-14-04, 11:46 PM
I think we must be on Candid Camera
pacesetter
06-15-04, 12:54 AM
High levels of strength are *definitely* not required for (endurance) racing (i.e., road, TT, track endurance etc). Anyone (who is healthy, age and gender matched) can produce the requisite forces needed for cycle racing.
Even the power output of elite TdF riders is a *doddle* to meet. For e.g., it can be estimated that LA produces ~ 400 W when cycling up a mountain. You'd be hard pushed to find a healthy, age matched guy that couldn't produce ~ 400 W. It's the ability to *sustain* these efforts for long periods of time, that sets us apart.
The ability to sustain these efforts is a function of (e.g.) LT, TTpower and power at VO2 max. It's nothing to do with strength, which is a measure of the maximum force that can be generated by a muscle or group of muscles.
Yes, weight training does increase strength. Strength does not need to be increased for endurance cycling. And, yes, i've seen races abroard, raced abroad myself, and have data from pro events (e.g., TdF, World Championships, world records) all the way down to fitness riders and everything in between.
Even the power output of elite TdF riders is a *doddle* to meet. For e.g., it can be estimated that LA produces ~ 400 W when cycling up a mountain. You'd be hard pushed to find a healthy, age matched guy that couldn't produce ~ 400 W. It's the ability to *sustain* these efforts for long periods of time, that sets us apart.
The ability to sustain these efforts is a function of (e.g.) LT, TTpower and power at VO2 max. It's nothing to do with strength, which is a measure of the maximum force that can be generated by a muscle or group of muscles.
Yes, weight training does increase strength. Strength does not need to be increased for endurance cycling. And, yes, i've seen races abroard, raced abroad myself, and have data from pro events (e.g., TdF, World Championships, world records) all the way down to fitness riders and everything in between.
markjay
06-15-04, 07:35 AM
Thanks for your feedback, everybody!
I should have made clear that I am not interested in racing. I ride for enjoyment and fitness. As for weight training, I am interested in how it might help me avoid injury, maintain good overall health, etc. Anyway, a few of the resources that people here have pointed to (books, Websites) are helpful. (And the debate about racing is interesting as well, even though it doesn't affect me directly!)
Thanks! (And feel free to add more comments, whether about racing or not.)
I should have made clear that I am not interested in racing. I ride for enjoyment and fitness. As for weight training, I am interested in how it might help me avoid injury, maintain good overall health, etc. Anyway, a few of the resources that people here have pointed to (books, Websites) are helpful. (And the debate about racing is interesting as well, even though it doesn't affect me directly!)
Thanks! (And feel free to add more comments, whether about racing or not.)
pletcgm
06-15-04, 09:36 AM
I weight train 3 times a week besides my cycling. Monday and Friday and upper body and Wednesday is lower body. This has worked out just great for me! I don't have all of the soreness in my upper body after rides that I used to. Plus, I feel and look a lot better with a toned upper body and I am now going faster than I have ever gone before!
It has also helped me a lot with my mountain biking.
It has also helped me a lot with my mountain biking.
oxologic
06-15-04, 10:03 AM
All the strength in other parts of your body will stave off injuries. Not having injuries mean you are going to be able to spend more time training. Being able to put in more quality training means that you will be able to race better.
As for health wise, that total body fitness will be good, you will get to burn more fats and of course no injuries, meaning when you get old, you will be able to have better balance, coordination, less likelyhood of falls.
Cycling is a sport, but your fitness should not allow you to only do cycling. That way, I don't think you'll be that good, because all sports are part physical and part mental. If you never take a break from cycling and just do cycling all day long... you won't make it far, and you won't race well. You get sick of it, and weight training is one way to get off cycling.
About the point of maximal strength, the ability to have a higher maximal strength will allow you to work at a less demanding level than others with the same output. I really feel weird when anyone says that weight training is useless, but I'll respect your opinion, while others can decide what's better for themselves.
As for health wise, that total body fitness will be good, you will get to burn more fats and of course no injuries, meaning when you get old, you will be able to have better balance, coordination, less likelyhood of falls.
Cycling is a sport, but your fitness should not allow you to only do cycling. That way, I don't think you'll be that good, because all sports are part physical and part mental. If you never take a break from cycling and just do cycling all day long... you won't make it far, and you won't race well. You get sick of it, and weight training is one way to get off cycling.
About the point of maximal strength, the ability to have a higher maximal strength will allow you to work at a less demanding level than others with the same output. I really feel weird when anyone says that weight training is useless, but I'll respect your opinion, while others can decide what's better for themselves.
Don Woodson
06-15-04, 11:32 AM
For me, when I started riding (and losing weight), getting up my local hills was a challenge. But when I started weight training, especially squats, lunges etc., the hills just kinda turned into little speed bumps.
I can see where a well seasoned biker wouldn't really gain that much performance by lifting weights, but if you're out of shape, the weights really help you get your body where it should be (IMO).
And I really like the Crossfit daily workouts. I can't do them all yet, but what I can do sure has made my hill climbing a lot easier.
I can see where a well seasoned biker wouldn't really gain that much performance by lifting weights, but if you're out of shape, the weights really help you get your body where it should be (IMO).
And I really like the Crossfit daily workouts. I can't do them all yet, but what I can do sure has made my hill climbing a lot easier.
pletcgm
06-15-04, 11:34 AM
For me, when I started riding (and losing weight), getting up my local hills was a challenge. But when I started weight training, especially squats, lunges etc., the hills just kinda turned into little speed bumps.
I can see where a well seasoned biker wouldn't really gain that much performance by lifting weights, but if you're out of shape, the weights really help you get your body where it should be (IMO).
And I really like the Crossfit daily workouts. I can't do them all yet, but what I can do sure has made my hill climbing a lot easier.
It did the same for me! I use a double chain ring and have no problems climbing hills at higher speeds
I can see where a well seasoned biker wouldn't really gain that much performance by lifting weights, but if you're out of shape, the weights really help you get your body where it should be (IMO).
And I really like the Crossfit daily workouts. I can't do them all yet, but what I can do sure has made my hill climbing a lot easier.
It did the same for me! I use a double chain ring and have no problems climbing hills at higher speeds
Don Woodson
06-15-04, 01:16 PM
:D Alright! Another double chainring biker! I just love it when I'm going up a hill and cruise right on by someone peddling his guts out with a triple.
oldspark
06-15-04, 05:49 PM
A lot more to bike racing than just endurance and keeping a high level effort for long periods of time. The ability to break away on a long hill climb and sprinting is related to power which can be improved with weights. Might be a small differance in the scheme of things but any advantage on the pro level will be used for the benefit of winning.
As far as on my level (slow old man) weight lifting is essential to me being faster and stronger on the bike.
As far as on my level (slow old man) weight lifting is essential to me being faster and stronger on the bike.
pacesetter
06-15-04, 07:49 PM
Here is some research on the subject my coach wrote.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern
oldspark
06-15-04, 09:48 PM
Doesn't look like anything even close to being etched in stone with a lot of room for futher testing with Stern himself saying weight training needs to be specific to do any good. A lot of weight training is done in the winter so you are at a new level when cycling season starts in the spring, strength can then be gained by training on the bike. If time is limited you will gain power quicker with weights and bike then just biking.
John M
06-16-04, 06:08 AM
Don W:
What is a crossfit daily workout? I need to do something else as you mentioned going up hills is not easy. Especially if you are out of shape and not rode much in the last years. Short and round do not climb well. I am at my max ride time during the week and logging ~ 100 mi a week. I need to explore my options as my main goal is weight loss and lower blood pressure without meds.
What is a crossfit daily workout? I need to do something else as you mentioned going up hills is not easy. Especially if you are out of shape and not rode much in the last years. Short and round do not climb well. I am at my max ride time during the week and logging ~ 100 mi a week. I need to explore my options as my main goal is weight loss and lower blood pressure without meds.
pletcgm
06-16-04, 09:11 AM
:D Alright! Another double chainring biker! I just love it when I'm going up a hill and cruise right on by someone peddling his guts out with a triple.
I agree, it is pretty funny seeing that! But hey, we all were there at one point too
I agree, it is pretty funny seeing that! But hey, we all were there at one point too
Don Woodson
06-16-04, 11:01 AM
Yeah pletcqm, it is funny, but then I also find myself humbled by this one guy who insists upon spanking me on the hills with his single speed.
John M, Crossfit is a website that puts out a daily workout that is very strenuous and doesn't require a lot of expensive equipment. Basically, you need a barbell and some weights, some dumbells, a place to run, a place to do pullups and dips, and a medicine ball (which I made by filling a basketball with sand).
A lot of firemen, SWAT teams, FBI, and other military types swear by it. It's at: http://www.crossfit.com/ and just following the daily workout is free, but 25 bucks a year for the journal is worth it. But for losing weight and improving your climbs, IMO you just can't beat good ol' weighted squats. Just put about forty pounds on the bar and do as many reps as you can, rest, repeat. Of course the first time you do it, it'll be all you can do to just walk for a few days, but it'll get better. Then start adding weight and doing less reps, but more sets. Soon you'll be laughing at hills.
As far as weight loss and lowering your BP, I personally don't have enough time to crank out a hundred miles a week, so I'm compensating by including other more rigorous exercise. As far as actual weight loss, I seemed to have stopped at 195-198 lbs. I want to get down to 165 or 170 (I started at 230 lbs). I'm hoping that my weight losing stalemate is because my muscles are growing and replacing the fat. I really don't see that much difference in the mirror, but I have had a lot of favorable comments from the ladies. ;)
As a side note, when I filled my medicine ball with sand and weighed it, I realized that that was exactly how much I had lost at that point, and after tossing it around a while I thought to myself, "CHEEZ! I used to carry this around my waist all the time. No wonder I couldn't move". Now I'm motivated to get that last twenty pounds off so I can climb even faster.
John M, Crossfit is a website that puts out a daily workout that is very strenuous and doesn't require a lot of expensive equipment. Basically, you need a barbell and some weights, some dumbells, a place to run, a place to do pullups and dips, and a medicine ball (which I made by filling a basketball with sand).
A lot of firemen, SWAT teams, FBI, and other military types swear by it. It's at: http://www.crossfit.com/ and just following the daily workout is free, but 25 bucks a year for the journal is worth it. But for losing weight and improving your climbs, IMO you just can't beat good ol' weighted squats. Just put about forty pounds on the bar and do as many reps as you can, rest, repeat. Of course the first time you do it, it'll be all you can do to just walk for a few days, but it'll get better. Then start adding weight and doing less reps, but more sets. Soon you'll be laughing at hills.
As far as weight loss and lowering your BP, I personally don't have enough time to crank out a hundred miles a week, so I'm compensating by including other more rigorous exercise. As far as actual weight loss, I seemed to have stopped at 195-198 lbs. I want to get down to 165 or 170 (I started at 230 lbs). I'm hoping that my weight losing stalemate is because my muscles are growing and replacing the fat. I really don't see that much difference in the mirror, but I have had a lot of favorable comments from the ladies. ;)
As a side note, when I filled my medicine ball with sand and weighed it, I realized that that was exactly how much I had lost at that point, and after tossing it around a while I thought to myself, "CHEEZ! I used to carry this around my waist all the time. No wonder I couldn't move". Now I'm motivated to get that last twenty pounds off so I can climb even faster.
Sparky2
06-16-04, 11:20 AM
A triple doesn't necessarily mean that someone is not a strong cyclist. It is also dependent on personal preferences, where you ride and what distances. A local cycling club published the attached "Billy Goat" list:
http://www.actc.org/billygoats/bgoats.htm
I have absolutely no qualms on doing anything over a "4" on my triple but I typically have several of those climbs in 60-100 mile rides.
http://www.actc.org/billygoats/bgoats.htm
I have absolutely no qualms on doing anything over a "4" on my triple but I typically have several of those climbs in 60-100 mile rides.
nutbag
06-16-04, 11:31 AM
do the pros use 39 or 42 teeth chain rings?
Don Woodson
06-16-04, 11:48 AM
A triple doesn't necessarily mean that someone is not a strong cyclist. It is also dependent on personal preferences, where you ride and what distances. A local cycling club published the attached "Billy Goat" list:
http://www.actc.org/billygoats/bgoats.htm
I have absolutely no qualms on doing anything over a "4" on my triple but I typically have several of those climbs in 60-100 mile rides.
Sparky, I have nothing against using a triple, if I felt I needed one. If I had hills around here like them Billygoats do, then yes, I would want a triple. I live in the hilliest part of Illinois, which really isn't saying much compared to the hills in say, Colorado, or Utah.
http://www.actc.org/billygoats/bgoats.htm
I have absolutely no qualms on doing anything over a "4" on my triple but I typically have several of those climbs in 60-100 mile rides.
Sparky, I have nothing against using a triple, if I felt I needed one. If I had hills around here like them Billygoats do, then yes, I would want a triple. I live in the hilliest part of Illinois, which really isn't saying much compared to the hills in say, Colorado, or Utah.
John M
06-16-04, 11:58 AM
Don
Thanks for the info and link. I make the time to ride as my health got in the way and my wife works with me on this. I even ride with my daughter, 8, at the end of my rides. :D Real slow, but that is quality time with her that I get and she loves beating daddy down the circle. :lol: I just found out that I can use the gym here at work at lunch if I take their evaluation test and schedule some time. Policy gives me 3 hrs a week so I can go over three times a week and get some training at their expense not mine as I have no weight or any of that stuff, just a couple of bikes.
Congrats on the weight. I started 18 April at 228, today I was 207. I feel a lot better now, but still want to get to 175 which is one of my goals. I have already lost a pants size. :D
Thanks for the info and link. I make the time to ride as my health got in the way and my wife works with me on this. I even ride with my daughter, 8, at the end of my rides. :D Real slow, but that is quality time with her that I get and she loves beating daddy down the circle. :lol: I just found out that I can use the gym here at work at lunch if I take their evaluation test and schedule some time. Policy gives me 3 hrs a week so I can go over three times a week and get some training at their expense not mine as I have no weight or any of that stuff, just a couple of bikes.
Congrats on the weight. I started 18 April at 228, today I was 207. I feel a lot better now, but still want to get to 175 which is one of my goals. I have already lost a pants size. :D
Don Woodson
06-16-04, 12:36 PM
:D I have a feeling in a couple years, if you keep her at it, your daughter will be waiting at the end of the ride for you. (I love that Lance Armstrong commercial where he looks back to see a kid on a bike wearing a football helmet, nipping at his heels).
My company also has a nice gym, but we can't use it on company time, plus they charge us just as much as a commercial gym. Never did understand the logic in that. Just a waste of company space. I grew up on Army bases and there was always a gym on base that we used for free. Paying money to go to a gym just doesn't sit well with me.
Congrats on your efforts paying off! I'm with ya!
My company also has a nice gym, but we can't use it on company time, plus they charge us just as much as a commercial gym. Never did understand the logic in that. Just a waste of company space. I grew up on Army bases and there was always a gym on base that we used for free. Paying money to go to a gym just doesn't sit well with me.
Congrats on your efforts paying off! I'm with ya!
pletcgm
06-16-04, 12:53 PM
I will be honest, my bicycle does not have a triple, but I have kept my original bike with the triple, just in case something happens that I have to give up cycling for several months and have trouble with the double.
pletcgm
06-16-04, 12:53 PM
do the pros use 39 or 42 teeth chain rings?
I am almost positive they use 39
I am almost positive they use 39
pacesetter
06-16-04, 01:08 PM
:D Alright! Another double chainring biker! I just love it when I'm going up a hill and cruise right on by someone peddling his guts out with a triple.
Depending on the work out, i may ride the 53 up a 12 mile 7% grade or the 42 for a differant work out. beacuse you pass a cyclist don't think your a better cyclist lots of cyclist train right and training right includes slow easy rides.
Depending on the work out, i may ride the 53 up a 12 mile 7% grade or the 42 for a differant work out. beacuse you pass a cyclist don't think your a better cyclist lots of cyclist train right and training right includes slow easy rides.
Don Woodson
06-16-04, 01:43 PM
Depending on the work out, i may ride the 53 up a 12 mile 7% grade or the 42 for a differant work out. beacuse you pass a cyclist don't think your a better cyclist lots of cyclist train right and training right includes slow easy rides.
Pacesetter, I didn't mean to imply that I was a better cyclist than anyone else. I only meant that it feels real good to me that I was in the other guys seat a few months ago, and now I'm not, and I plan on keepin it that way.
And could you explain to this neophyte what is a % grade when measured in degrees? I don't know. The reason I ask is because I recently rode 39 mi (rt) on the Katy trail in Missouri. It was described as a 4% grade the entire way. But during the whole ride I couldn't tell which way was uphill or down hill. At what % grade would you say is 30 or 40 degrees? Some of the hills that I ride are at an honest 40 degrees for about a half mile. Real short, but very steep. When it snows, even four wheel drive one ton trucks can't get up them.
And one of these days, I'm going to count the teeth on my chain rings. I'm assuming it's whatever was standard for a ten speed of '70's vintage.
Pacesetter, I didn't mean to imply that I was a better cyclist than anyone else. I only meant that it feels real good to me that I was in the other guys seat a few months ago, and now I'm not, and I plan on keepin it that way.
And could you explain to this neophyte what is a % grade when measured in degrees? I don't know. The reason I ask is because I recently rode 39 mi (rt) on the Katy trail in Missouri. It was described as a 4% grade the entire way. But during the whole ride I couldn't tell which way was uphill or down hill. At what % grade would you say is 30 or 40 degrees? Some of the hills that I ride are at an honest 40 degrees for about a half mile. Real short, but very steep. When it snows, even four wheel drive one ton trucks can't get up them.
And one of these days, I'm going to count the teeth on my chain rings. I'm assuming it's whatever was standard for a ten speed of '70's vintage.
bradw
06-16-04, 02:39 PM
The reason I ask is because I recently rode 39 mi (rt) on the Katy trail in Missouri. It was described as a 4% grade the entire way. But during the whole ride I couldn't tell which way was uphill or down hill. At what % grade would you say is 30 or 40 degrees? Some of the hills that I ride are at an honest 40 degrees for about a half mile.
.
Don, where is this section of the Katy that is 4% for 39 miles????
I've ridden the east end of the Katy several times, and it is board flat. There are spots (a few yards) marked as >5%, but that's only where the road briefly rises over a bridge or another road. I think they note those spots for people using wheelchairs, etc.
A 7% grade, IIRC, means that there is 7 feet of rise to every 100 feet of road.
I think this translates to a 45 degree road being a 100% grade. A 40 degree road for a half mile would be extremely steep. Something like an 80% grade I think. That would be a hill rising (corrected) 2100 ft in a half mile. I've seen some of the hills along the river, and they are really tough. But I don't think there are any hills that high in MO or IL.
.
Don, where is this section of the Katy that is 4% for 39 miles????
I've ridden the east end of the Katy several times, and it is board flat. There are spots (a few yards) marked as >5%, but that's only where the road briefly rises over a bridge or another road. I think they note those spots for people using wheelchairs, etc.
A 7% grade, IIRC, means that there is 7 feet of rise to every 100 feet of road.
I think this translates to a 45 degree road being a 100% grade. A 40 degree road for a half mile would be extremely steep. Something like an 80% grade I think. That would be a hill rising (corrected) 2100 ft in a half mile. I've seen some of the hills along the river, and they are really tough. But I don't think there are any hills that high in MO or IL.
John M
06-16-04, 02:59 PM
:D I have a feeling in a couple years, if you keep her at it, your daughter will be waiting at the end of the ride for you. (I love that Lance Armstrong commercial where he looks back to see a kid on a bike wearing a football helmet, nipping at his heels).
:) I figure that will be true. I got her up to 4 mile now with me. We avg ~ 8 mph not bad considering she is on a 20" single speed
My company also has a nice gym, but we can't use it on company time, plus they charge us just as much as a commercial gym. Never did understand the logic in that. Just a waste of company space. I grew up on Army bases and there was always a gym on base that we used for free. Paying money to go to a gym just doesn't sit well with me.
Congrats on your efforts paying off! I'm with ya!
Thanks, I am on an Army base. MWR has a new facility I can use and a boss that is going to give us time so I want to go check this out. A couple of the local company's here have bough bulk passed to 2 of the local centers and the people get to use the facility for ~1/2 what the rest of us pay. That makes sence, not paying full $$ and getting charged time off.
:) I figure that will be true. I got her up to 4 mile now with me. We avg ~ 8 mph not bad considering she is on a 20" single speed
My company also has a nice gym, but we can't use it on company time, plus they charge us just as much as a commercial gym. Never did understand the logic in that. Just a waste of company space. I grew up on Army bases and there was always a gym on base that we used for free. Paying money to go to a gym just doesn't sit well with me.
Congrats on your efforts paying off! I'm with ya!
Thanks, I am on an Army base. MWR has a new facility I can use and a boss that is going to give us time so I want to go check this out. A couple of the local company's here have bough bulk passed to 2 of the local centers and the people get to use the facility for ~1/2 what the rest of us pay. That makes sence, not paying full $$ and getting charged time off.
Don Woodson
06-17-04, 07:11 AM
Don, where is this section of the Katy that is 4% for 39 miles????
I've ridden the east end of the Katy several times, and it is board flat. There are spots (a few yards) marked as >5%, but that's only where the road briefly rises over a bridge or another road. I think they note those spots for people using wheelchairs, etc.
A 7% grade, IIRC, means that there is 7 feet of rise to every 100 feet of road.
I think this translates to a 45 degree road being a 100% grade. A 40 degree road for a half mile would be extremely steep. Something like an 80% grade I think. That would be a hill rising (corrected) 2100 ft in a half mile. I've seen some of the hills along the river, and they are really tough. But I don't think there are any hills that high in MO or IL.
Hi Brad,
This friend of mine talked me into coming over to ride that section between St Charles and Defiance (19. something mi one way, 39.something round trip). Before we embarked he said that that section had a 4% grade. Halfway down the trail I asked him when the 4% grade started. He said, "this is it, you'll feel it on the way back". I never did. :rolleyes: I think we did go over a levee at one point.
After you ride the flat part of the River road from Alton to Grafton, hang the first right as you come into Grafton (just after Raging Rivers Water Park). That hill is a doozy. Pretty close to 40 deg. in some sections of it. It does level out in a couple spots, but not long enough for your heart rate to go back down. When you're done there, go back down to the river road, cruise through town, take a break and eat some Ice Cream. When you're ready again continue riding through town. About a half mile past route 3, you'll see an old pink colored gas station on the right had side with a stone house sitting behind it. Turn down that street (forgot the name of it). That road goes back through a real pretty hollow a lot of people don't know about. When it looks like it's about to end (about a mile), you'll find a real killer hill. They built it during the '93 food just so the folks that live back there could get out. It is rediculously steep. It may be even close to 45 degrees. Real twisty and windey too. After you reach the top and recover, check your brakes real good before you go back down. Cruise back through the hollow, turn right and continue up the highway. You'll see the Wild Goose Saloon on the left, and the Finn Inn on the right. Don't drink any beer yet, cause we're not done yet. About a 1/4 mile past the Finn Inn, jog to the right onto the bike trail. Pretty flat for about a mile. Then you cross Graham Hollow road. Then you pump up another decent hill and the trail turns into a roller coaster for a few miles, then goes flat again until you hit Pierre Marquette State Park. The road that goes up past the lodge is also pretty good.
That's my ride. From there I'll go back down to Grafton and drink a couple beers at the Wild Goose, or down to the Loading Dock, another popular drinking establishment.
There's another hill back in Elsah, going up to Principia College, but I haven't ridden it yet. Heck, there's a lot of hills around here I haven't ridden yet.
I've ridden the east end of the Katy several times, and it is board flat. There are spots (a few yards) marked as >5%, but that's only where the road briefly rises over a bridge or another road. I think they note those spots for people using wheelchairs, etc.
A 7% grade, IIRC, means that there is 7 feet of rise to every 100 feet of road.
I think this translates to a 45 degree road being a 100% grade. A 40 degree road for a half mile would be extremely steep. Something like an 80% grade I think. That would be a hill rising (corrected) 2100 ft in a half mile. I've seen some of the hills along the river, and they are really tough. But I don't think there are any hills that high in MO or IL.
Hi Brad,
This friend of mine talked me into coming over to ride that section between St Charles and Defiance (19. something mi one way, 39.something round trip). Before we embarked he said that that section had a 4% grade. Halfway down the trail I asked him when the 4% grade started. He said, "this is it, you'll feel it on the way back". I never did. :rolleyes: I think we did go over a levee at one point.
After you ride the flat part of the River road from Alton to Grafton, hang the first right as you come into Grafton (just after Raging Rivers Water Park). That hill is a doozy. Pretty close to 40 deg. in some sections of it. It does level out in a couple spots, but not long enough for your heart rate to go back down. When you're done there, go back down to the river road, cruise through town, take a break and eat some Ice Cream. When you're ready again continue riding through town. About a half mile past route 3, you'll see an old pink colored gas station on the right had side with a stone house sitting behind it. Turn down that street (forgot the name of it). That road goes back through a real pretty hollow a lot of people don't know about. When it looks like it's about to end (about a mile), you'll find a real killer hill. They built it during the '93 food just so the folks that live back there could get out. It is rediculously steep. It may be even close to 45 degrees. Real twisty and windey too. After you reach the top and recover, check your brakes real good before you go back down. Cruise back through the hollow, turn right and continue up the highway. You'll see the Wild Goose Saloon on the left, and the Finn Inn on the right. Don't drink any beer yet, cause we're not done yet. About a 1/4 mile past the Finn Inn, jog to the right onto the bike trail. Pretty flat for about a mile. Then you cross Graham Hollow road. Then you pump up another decent hill and the trail turns into a roller coaster for a few miles, then goes flat again until you hit Pierre Marquette State Park. The road that goes up past the lodge is also pretty good.
That's my ride. From there I'll go back down to Grafton and drink a couple beers at the Wild Goose, or down to the Loading Dock, another popular drinking establishment.
There's another hill back in Elsah, going up to Principia College, but I haven't ridden it yet. Heck, there's a lot of hills around here I haven't ridden yet.
Chop
06-17-04, 08:19 AM
Talk about an off-topic hijacked thread...
Don Woodson
06-17-04, 11:08 AM
Talk about an off-topic hijacked thread...
OOPS! Can't argue with that, can I.
OOPS! Can't argue with that, can I.
Ric Stern
06-24-04, 10:51 AM
Doesn't look like anything even close to being etched in stone with a lot of room for futher testing with Stern himself saying weight training needs to be specific to do any good. A lot of weight training is done in the winter so you are at a new level when cycling season starts in the spring, strength can then be gained by training on the bike. If time is limited you will gain power quicker with weights and bike then just biking.
I most likely said that weight training *isn't* specific to cycling, rather than it needs to be specific to do any good as this isn't the case (i.e., weight training will never be specific to endurance cycling).
the issue can be summed up as:
for people who do endurance cycle racing (that's any racing >90-secs in duration) weight training isn't beneficial and is detrimental. if you don't race, but could then it won't help cycling performance either.
if you're untrained or low fitness, then *ANY* exercise will increase your bike performance, although it must be understood that the quickest and best gains will come from cycling.
if you race in events such as the 200-m match sprint, 500-m/1-km TT, Olympic sprint, etc. on the track (but not pursuiting) then weight training is required as more force here is good.
forces during elite endurance bike racing are really quite low, and can be met by most people. i usually add the caveat that you need to be age, gender, and mass matched healthy subjects to meet this -- but often even grossly mismatched can meet the force demands.
for example, approximately, during the recent Mont Ventoux TT at the Dauphine Libere stage race, the top 5 would have needed to produce a force of ~ 250 Newtons (~ 24 kg) between *both* legs to produce the sort of effort that they did. thus, as most (all people) could press that strength isn't limiting in cycling.
Weight training in the winter (or anytime) doesn't add to your base -- it mainly just takes away cycling time.
ric
I most likely said that weight training *isn't* specific to cycling, rather than it needs to be specific to do any good as this isn't the case (i.e., weight training will never be specific to endurance cycling).
the issue can be summed up as:
for people who do endurance cycle racing (that's any racing >90-secs in duration) weight training isn't beneficial and is detrimental. if you don't race, but could then it won't help cycling performance either.
if you're untrained or low fitness, then *ANY* exercise will increase your bike performance, although it must be understood that the quickest and best gains will come from cycling.
if you race in events such as the 200-m match sprint, 500-m/1-km TT, Olympic sprint, etc. on the track (but not pursuiting) then weight training is required as more force here is good.
forces during elite endurance bike racing are really quite low, and can be met by most people. i usually add the caveat that you need to be age, gender, and mass matched healthy subjects to meet this -- but often even grossly mismatched can meet the force demands.
for example, approximately, during the recent Mont Ventoux TT at the Dauphine Libere stage race, the top 5 would have needed to produce a force of ~ 250 Newtons (~ 24 kg) between *both* legs to produce the sort of effort that they did. thus, as most (all people) could press that strength isn't limiting in cycling.
Weight training in the winter (or anytime) doesn't add to your base -- it mainly just takes away cycling time.
ric
sm266
06-24-04, 02:15 PM
Ric, I disagree, on personal experience. Weight training has aided my racing greatly, especially my mountain bike events.
But, we've been having this arguement for a long while. Besides, it's not all about racing is it?
But, we've been having this arguement for a long while. Besides, it's not all about racing is it?
JustsayMo
06-24-04, 03:18 PM
the issue can be summed up as:
for people who do endurance cycle racing (that's any racing >90-secs in duration) weight training isn't beneficial and is detrimental. if you don't race, but could then it won't help cycling performance either.
if you're untrained or low fitness, then *ANY* exercise will increase your bike performance, although it must be understood that the quickest and best gains will come from cycling.
if you race in events such as the 200-m match sprint, 500-m/1-km TT, Olympic sprint, etc. on the track (but not pursuiting) then weight training is required as more force here is good.
forces during elite endurance bike racing are really quite low, and can be met by most people. i usually add the caveat that you need to be age, gender, and mass matched healthy subjects to meet this -- but often even grossly mismatched can meet the force demands.
for example, approximately, during the recent Mont Ventoux TT at the Dauphine Libere stage race, the top 5 would have needed to produce a force of ~ 250 Newtons (~ 24 kg) between *both* legs to produce the sort of effort that they did. thus, as most (all people) could press that strength isn't limiting in cycling.
Weight training in the winter (or anytime) doesn't add to your base -- it mainly just takes away cycling time.
ric
I would sum it as follows:
Nearly everyone has an opinion on the subject. Very few will ever change their mind about the subject and will remain incredulous to the other side. Lastly, this will be argued over and over in any cycling venue the subject come up.
Mo <--began cycling (racing) as a non believer. Became a believer once I actually tried it, unfortunately I was already in my mid thirties before I did but I still set ALL of my personal bests (40k, Pursuit, kilo, 200 meter TT) after I began lifting weights.
for people who do endurance cycle racing (that's any racing >90-secs in duration) weight training isn't beneficial and is detrimental. if you don't race, but could then it won't help cycling performance either.
if you're untrained or low fitness, then *ANY* exercise will increase your bike performance, although it must be understood that the quickest and best gains will come from cycling.
if you race in events such as the 200-m match sprint, 500-m/1-km TT, Olympic sprint, etc. on the track (but not pursuiting) then weight training is required as more force here is good.
forces during elite endurance bike racing are really quite low, and can be met by most people. i usually add the caveat that you need to be age, gender, and mass matched healthy subjects to meet this -- but often even grossly mismatched can meet the force demands.
for example, approximately, during the recent Mont Ventoux TT at the Dauphine Libere stage race, the top 5 would have needed to produce a force of ~ 250 Newtons (~ 24 kg) between *both* legs to produce the sort of effort that they did. thus, as most (all people) could press that strength isn't limiting in cycling.
Weight training in the winter (or anytime) doesn't add to your base -- it mainly just takes away cycling time.
ric
I would sum it as follows:
Nearly everyone has an opinion on the subject. Very few will ever change their mind about the subject and will remain incredulous to the other side. Lastly, this will be argued over and over in any cycling venue the subject come up.
Mo <--began cycling (racing) as a non believer. Became a believer once I actually tried it, unfortunately I was already in my mid thirties before I did but I still set ALL of my personal bests (40k, Pursuit, kilo, 200 meter TT) after I began lifting weights.
Ric Stern
06-24-04, 03:30 PM
But, we've been having this arguement for a long while.
i don't know? have we? who are you?
i don't know? have we? who are you?
ultimate
06-25-04, 02:19 AM
I have tried weight training and it didnt make me any faster on a bike. However the worlds top coaches dont seem to be able to agree on the benefits of weight training: :rolleyes:
Peter Keen and Chris Boardman are 'against',
Chris Carmichael is for.
Peter Keen and Chris Boardman are 'against',
Chris Carmichael is for.
John M
06-25-04, 06:16 AM
Eddie B is for also
I am trying it. Cannot help but add tone to this old flabby bodie. @49 I do not care to race, just improve my health.
I am trying it. Cannot help but add tone to this old flabby bodie. @49 I do not care to race, just improve my health.
sm266
06-25-04, 11:01 AM
i don't know? have we? who are you?
We met at the bar last weekend, don't you remember me?
We met at the bar last weekend, don't you remember me?
Ric Stern
06-25-04, 11:55 AM
We met at the bar last weekend, don't you remember me?
probably not, as a) i haven't been to a bar in a few months, b) i've not been to the States since my training camp in January. so i guess not!
so, who are you? if it's a matter of national secrecy and you can't reveal your name on the board, just PM me, i do like to know who i've been drinking with!
ric
probably not, as a) i haven't been to a bar in a few months, b) i've not been to the States since my training camp in January. so i guess not!
so, who are you? if it's a matter of national secrecy and you can't reveal your name on the board, just PM me, i do like to know who i've been drinking with!
ric