Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Do you need a car to be a rando?

Being someone who doesn't own a car, I'm starting to feel more and more than it's holding me back from doing the rides I want to do. (It's not that I can't afford a car, I don't want one)

First off, I understand that nothing is holding me back from doing my own 600k's from my doorstep.. but what I'm talking about here are official brevets.

Seattle Randonneurs tend to start their rides in whoever's back yard created it. Most of our members tend to live outside of the city, and hence most of the rides start well outside of Seattle. (This could also be due to the fact that few randos enjoy urban riding..)

Compare that to the SF Randos, who (from what I can tell) start most of their brevets at the Golden Gate bridge (a location close to the city center). Of course, geography plays a part in that, and I suppose if Seattle had mountains so close we'd probably do that too.

And of course, no one ride can start near everyone's backyard, but I do think brevet organizers should take locale into account when planning rides, and try to make the start location more reasonable. I mean it's not like we don't pedal far enough that we couldn't start in the city and still see cool stuff.. at least that's my take.

For example the SiR spring 400k is this weekend, being held a whopping 180 miles east of Seattle! So much for "Seattle" Randonneurs I suppose. (When this topic came up on the SiR email list, of course people reminded me that the I in SiR stands for "international"... but if Ephrata's international, i'm burning my passport!)

Ironically, the Vancouver Isle 400k the same weekend, is actually closer (~80 miles not including ferry rides)....

What kills me is that if I (somehow) organized a brevet where there was no parking at the start, and you had to pedal to it, people would riot over how stupid that is, and about five people would ride (out of say 100+ possible riders).

Yet the flip side, planning a brevet that essentially requires one to drive out, seems just as exclusionary to me.

Yes I know I can just car-pool out there, but it's the principle of the matter that gets to me. This is supposed to be about bicycle riding, right?

(For the record, I don't ride to each and every brevet, though i have ridden to some. I've gotten rides from various people, and I thank them heavily for it. I just wish more brevets started closer to our club's namesake (Seattle). I chose to live in the city to be central to many things; little did I know it would backfire in terms of brevet riding!)

Guess I just want to complain, thanks for reading.

--

So, do your brevets start in some central location, or in random spots?

How do you handle getting to/from rides?

If you organize brevets, how do you choose the start location?

Does anyone actually do brevets without using a car at all?

No, a person does not need a car to be a rando. I was into randonneuring from 2001 to 2004 without a car. Rowan has been a randonneur for years and it has been even more years than that since he has owned a car.

About the starting location ... whether I have a vehicle or not, I prefer the edge of town locations. I don't like city riding or driving, and prefer to avoid it as much as possible. The brevets I've ridden in Manitoba and in Alberta have all started on the edge of town, or as close to it as possible. My local brevets, the ones I create and manage, all start at a location right at the edge of my town, about 2 km from where I live.

I chose my start location because a) it was on the edge of town; b) it was close to where I live; c) it had facilities in the area that are open late at night so that riders could get a snack when they get in; d) it has hotels in the immediate area for riders who come in and want to stay the night; e) it had parking.

In Manitoba, all brevets started in Winnipeg ... basically because we didn't have riders from other locations. Although, we did allow a different start for one rider who lived out of town on occasion. He'd come in from one direction, we'd come in from another, and 20 km into the ride we'd all be on the same course. We all rode the same distance and it was more convenient for him.

In Alberta, we have riders from cities all over ... we have an Edmonton chapter, a Red Deer chapter (mine), a Calgary chapter, a Medicine Hat chapter, and we also run a mountain series. The Edmonton rides start at locations on the edge of Edmonton, the Red Deer rides start at one particular location on the edge of Red Deer, same with the Calgary and Medicine Hat rides ... and the mountain series either starts in Banff, or on the edge of Calgary. Most of our riders can either do a local ride ... and can ride to the start ... or can opt to do one of the other rides ... and would have to either ride out the day before or would have to drive. But that's up to the rider.

When I was car-free in Manitoba, I either rode to the start, caught a ride with other riders, or rented a car for the weekend ... whatever I felt like doing. Rowan and I have talked about renting a car to get to our brevets in Australia. Rowan has cycled to and from the start (most of his starts are about 100-200 km away), but it might be simpler just to rent a car.


Oh, and read the accounts from the riders in England ... some of them ride long distances to get to the start of their events.


EDIT: If you don't like the start locations of your local brevets, why don't you plan your own? When I first moved here the only way I could ride bevets was to travel to Calgary, Edmonton, Medicine Hat, or the mountains ... that was a bit inconvenient, so I asked if I could organize brevets out of Red Deer. That was approved, and I've created a series here.

in New England, we have a series that starts at the Hanscom Civil Air Terminal, which is about 15 miles or so from the center of Cambridge and maybe 20 miles from downtown Boston. It's a nice warm up to ride out there, and I tend to prefer riding to and from the start. Sometimes, when one sets out from home on the bike, one is reminded of something that they had forgotten, like a pump or water bottle mostly because they notice that it's missing on the bike. If you drive out, you may not notice that omission until you're at the start and it's too late to go home and fetch it.

The Westfield series is in the Berkshires, roughly 60-70 miles west from Boston, and is a bit more of a hike. I've actually taken Amtrak out to Westfield a couple of times to do the rides car-free, and it's not a bad way to travel, but you have to dedicate an entire day to it since the schedule is inconvenient and the train can be frequently late. Still, not a bad way to spend a three day weekend. Nowadays, I drive to those starts because I have a job with a stingy vacation policy.

Personally, having tried to plan fleche routes that start in the middle of the city, I would not want a brevet to start in a city center. The stop lights and traffic will provide an unneeded handicap and give the riders more stress than they'd need. Starting from a suburb about ten miles from the city limits is preferable.

Plus, I'd say that most of Macha's criteria for a start location (facilities open late at night, low traffic on the edge of town, nearby hotels, parking) are applicable to any brevet start.

in New England, we have a series that starts at the Hanscom Civil Air Terminal, which is about 15 miles or so from the center of Cambridge and maybe 20 miles from downtown Boston.

I've been pondering doing that series for a few years now and like mattm I'm carfree. It's about 240 or so miles each way for me so the ride to and from the ride would be more epic than the ride itself. :roflmao2: The thing that stops me isn't the volume of miles but simply the cost. I'd be looking at between two and four nights in a motel for each brevet depending on how I went about it, and that's not an expense I've been able to justify yet. Oh well, maybe next year. In the meantime I'll keep doing my own rides.

Interesting point. It's certainly difficult to be an organizer without a car. I'm trying it out this year though.

There are always complaints from people who live far away from the starts of rides, whether they are carless or not.

The upcoming Vancouver Island 400 you mention starts on the outskirts of the city and some will ride to the start (at 3AM) and some will drive. There is parking at the start -- a consideration and the reason the start was moved several years ago.

The "Backroad" 400 I run in July starts up island (to avoid the busy Malahat slog) far from any major centre. Riders try to car-pool. Some rides I start near ferry terminals to help those coming from the Mainland.

Interesting issue.

I think it's the organizer's perogative and right as for where to start rides. I also think most RBAs would be more than happy to let members volunteer to plan and run a few routes -- a number of clubs do this. While some might object to urban start/finishes and parking difficulties in Seattle, let them object or not ride, I say. How is footing the bill for $30 or $40 worth of city parking any more (or less) objectionable than driving 360 miles RT for a bike ride?

Anyway, most of our rides start on the outskirts of Columbus or Cincinnati (although a few start out in the middle of nowhere). To address some of the issues you raise (Mrs. Octopus and I, despite both being professionals and having a little Octopus in the house are a one-car family), I designed a permanent that starts at a coffee shop right down the street, in the midst of one of the largest cities in the United States. It requires significant stretches of urban and suburban riding. I know some people will never consider riding it but I hope that others might find it new and challenging and interesting in a way that other brevets are not.

Oh, and read the accounts from the riders in England ... some of them ride long distances to get to the start of their events.

Yeah I've heard many in the UK ride to PBP, it's quite inspiring. Riding to an event like that is awesome.


EDIT: If you don't like the start locations of your local brevets, why don't you plan your own? When I first moved here the only way I could ride bevets was to travel to Calgary, Edmonton, Medicine Hat, or the mountains ... that was a bit inconvenient, so I asked if I could organize brevets out of Red Deer. That was approved, and I've created a series here.

An excellent point, and in fact I'm taking part in putting together a 100k populaire for later this summer. We're starting in Seattle (South Park neighborhood). SiR has already put on an urban populaire, so starting in the city isn't necessarily something new to the club, just kind of rare. Our route doesn't stay in the city though, we found some nice roads to the south.

It's not that I want all SiR brevets to start in the city. Riding 40-60k to an event is quite reasonable (though riding back may not be so easy), and I've ridden to brevets starting in Kent, Issaquah, and Mukilteo, and those were at least within riding distance of Seattle.

I'm also planning a permanent that would start closer to Seattle, and visit all the toughest hills within 200k. Maybe I can try to run that as a brevet in a few years.

Btw I forgot to mention in my original post that I appreciate what ride organizers do, and realize they can't please everyone. I mean I'm glad there's somebody to put on these rides, no matter where they start. It's just that doing it car free is challenging sometimes.

in New England, we have a series that starts at the Hanscom Civil Air Terminal, which is about 15 miles or so from the center of Cambridge and maybe 20 miles from downtown Boston. It's a nice warm up to ride out there, and I tend to prefer riding to and from the start.

Definitely interesting to hear how other groups organize their rides.

I like riding to the start as well, and am pondering the 180 mile trip, over a mtn pass to this 400k. I took this Friday off just in case I decided to ride out, so I could get some sleep before the ride.

It's the way back that was really stopping me from going out, but it sounds like my girlfriend will be able to come get me after the ride. Sweet.

Problem solved, at least until the next brevet rolls around. (and assuming I can manage the extra mileage..)


I've actually taken Amtrak out to Westfield a couple of times to do the rides car-free, and it's not a bad way to travel, but you have to dedicate an entire day to it since the schedule is inconvenient and the train can be frequently late.

I looked into the Amtrak, there's actually a station at the start/end of this 400. But they don't take bikes!! The one time I wish I rode a folder..

There are always complaints from people who live far away from the starts of rides, whether they are carless or not.

It probably is impossible to place a route somewhere that pleases everyone. I'm sure even back in Velocio's days they discussed the logistics of randonnees.


The upcoming Vancouver Island 400 you mention starts on the outskirts of the city and some will ride to the start (at 3AM) and some will drive. There is parking at the start -- a consideration and the reason the start was moved several years ago.

I was actually planning to do that 400, up until I couldn't find my passport (and my ID is expired). I've been lazy about it so I just haven't gone and renewed my ID in a while.


I think it's the organizer's perogative and right as for where to start rides.

I agree, and realize my post was a little selfish. I mean everyone wants to be closer to the rides they want to do.

And I'll be sure to thank the organizers of this ride for putting it on, hopefully after I finish it on Saturday.


I also think most RBAs would be more than happy to let members volunteer to plan and run a few routes -- a number of clubs do this.

Yup they're letting a few of us youngins put together a populaire this year, it should be fun. I joked with my friend that we should put controls at "scary" corner stores, just to get a rise out of people (I heard some complain about riding through "bad" neighborhoods on the other urban populaire).

But in the end, we're putting on that ride to attract newcomers and have fun, not piss anyone off or scare anyone away. After putting on this small 100k I'll probably have a better idea of what it takes to organize these rides.

Thanks all for the feedback!

After putting on this small 100k I'll probably have a better idea of what it takes to organize these rides.



It can be very challenging. Around here, there are limited paved roads, and the transportation part of the government is in the habit of tearing them up and reconstructing them during the summer. I've had two routes destroyed for a season because of construction. I finally decide on a workable route ...... and they go and dig a road up.

See my Construction thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=538154

With limited roads it is also a challenge to put the riders into controls where they can actually get supplies every 75-100 km or so, and on decent roads that have light traffic so the riders will have a chance of being safe out there. Plus there are the rules we have to follow ... no travelling in the same direction on the same road more than once, and controls in places so riders can't take shortcuts, etc. etc.

When I first started planning routes I thought it would be a piece of cake ... ha! It's a lot of work putting together a decent route that is as close to the actual distance we're shooting for as possible.

There are indeed many logistical issues to creating a viable brevet, especially in more remote locations. There are plenty of routes I'd like to devise, but they just wouldn't work unless we had staffed controls.

Yeah I've heard many in the UK ride to PBP, it's quite inspiring. Riding to an event like that is awesome.

Matt, I was wondering how you are planning on getting to PBP -- unless PBP stands for Puyallup - Bremerton - Portland (?).

Matt, I was wondering how you are planning on getting to PBP -- unless PBP stands for Puyallup - Bremerton - Portland (?).

You don't need a car to get to the PBP.

Both times I flew into Heathrow, and then did a combination of riding, ferries, and trains to get out there.

I was actually planning to do that 400, up until I couldn't find my passport (and my ID is expired). I've been lazy about it so I just haven't gone and renewed my ID in a while.

Too bad. Although I had to drop out of our fleche team that went through WA last weekend, due to (continuing!) illness, one of the team didn't have his passport and breezed through with just picture ID. That will suffice for a while yet.



I joked with my friend that we should put controls at "scary" corner stores, just to get a rise out of people


I make a habit of that. Makes for some interesting entertainment at 3AM.

Some areas have better train services than your part of the world. My recent 300 started shortly after the first train of the day arrived and finished shortly before the last train left. All entrants drove...

Matt, I was wondering how you are planning on getting to PBP -- unless PBP stands for Puyallup - Bremerton - Portland (?).

Well the plan is to head east earlier that summer, catching a big sailboat across the pond from NYC, then a short ride from Brest to Paris. =]

If I were going out there solo, I'd probably try to ride from the DeGaul(?) airport to the suburb it starts in, or more easily take the train(s). But since Kira is coming out there too, we'll probably rent a car or something. She drives, which does make a lot of things easier for me.

And I'm also very lucky that she loves all things France; so leaving her there for 4 days is not an issue!

Matt, you don't need a car. You just need a good rando buddy that lives nearby who has a car.

If I were going out there solo, I'd probably try to ride from the DeGaul(?) airport to the suburb it starts in, or more easily take the train(s). But since Kira is coming out there too, we'll probably rent a car or something. She drives, which does make a lot of things easier for me.
I took the train from CDG to Paris, where I stayed in a friend's flat while they were (like every other Parisian) spending August in the countryside. In general, it wasn't bad, though wrestling a 60lb. bike case up and down the staircases of Chatelet-Les Halles was ... traumatic. From Paris, I did a pretty nice ride through the Bois de Boulogne and Versailles (http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Paris-to-PBP-start) to the register at St. Quentin en Yvelines. Taking a bicycle through beautifully manicured parks with crushed gravel surfaces made memories of bike paths and rail trails in North America feel positively pedestrian by comparison. For the start, however, I took the RER commuter train from Invalides, which is nice in that you get to meet some other PBP riders who are also enroute. I remember meeting an unfortunate Japanese fellow who broke his leg in an accident shortly before leaving for France, but still showed up with his Campagnolo jersey and cycling cap, to proudly cheer on his clubmates at the start.

You kind of skip most of those little interactions in a car.

When I first heard of people riding 20-30 miles to the start of brevets I thought they were nuts. I guess it speaks to the sickness involved that it doesn't sound so nuts to me anymore.

Matt, you don't need a car. You just need a good rando buddy that lives nearby who has a car.What I talked to you about, Matt, but maybe you didn't realize it. I wouldn't drive to it, either.

Well, there are precious few days when I can take a day off work to ride to the ride start, plus I can't afford to stay in a hotel so I'd have to figure out somewhere to bivouac. So for me, having a car is a necessity to be able to do randonneuring. I don't like having to drive -- I've bicycle-commuted to work every day since November, 2004. But ... I figure my net carbon contribution is still way negative (relative to typical footprints in this area), given the sum of rando commuting less bicycle commuting to work. I do try to carpool when I can.

Occasionally people post saying they'd like to get a ride to the ride start. But I've never seen one who posts the only critical piece of information in their request: Their willingness to meet me at my house. It's tough enough to get up at 3 am to get to these rides, without having to get up earlier so I can drive halfway across town to pick up someone.

Ride starts: We have three or four permanents that start in the city, and one of those has been ridden as a brevet. It's known informally as the "Thousand Points of (traffic) Lights" :-) Most of our brevet starts are about 40 miles out of town, because otherwise you spend the first and last 3 hours riding on some mighty tedious roads. Much nicer to spend 45 minutes driving to get out of all that. And of the 40 or so regular riders, fewer than a dozen live in the DC metro area.

While our club's name is DC Randonneurs, our riding region and membership covers from near Richmond, VA in the south, up into PA in the north, and out into WVa in the west (same as Randonneurs of the Mid-Atlantic, with whome we share many members). Basically about 120 miles radius of DC. So it's entirely reasonable to have ride starts throughout that region. Though 180 miles to a 400K would generate a lot of complaining if it were the only 400K in the SR series.

On being "Car-Free": Maybe this is just semantics, but it seems to me you're not really car-free if you're getting rides from people. You're making use of the services of a car, you're just not owning it. That might be a good bargain for everyone involved, including society. But after hearing someone's holier-than-thou "car-free" rant at dinner after a century training ride, and then having them ask me for a ride home, and then having to listen to their critical comments about the route that my GPS chose, and having to endure endless criticism of their annoying relatives, all the while taking an extra 45 minutes to drive them home, with no offer of gas money or anything ... well, you get the picture. I don't view them as being car-free, they're just free riders :-)

Nick

On being "Car-Free": Maybe this is just semantics, but it seems to me you're not really car-free if you're getting rides from people. You're making use of the services of a car, you're just not owning it. That might be a good bargain for everyone involved, including society. But after hearing someone's holier-than-thou "car-free" rant at dinner after a century training ride, and then having them ask me for a ride home, and then having to listen to their critical comments about the route that my GPS chose, and having to endure endless criticism of their annoying relatives, all the while taking an extra 45 minutes to drive them home, with no offer of gas money or anything ... well, you get the picture. I don't view them as being car-free, they're just free riders :-)

Nick

No one is car free. Rowan and I have both tried to tell people in the Living Car Free forum that they might be "car ownership free" but that no one is car free. As soon as you purchase an item of food, or buy an ornamant or piece of furniture or a jersey you're buying into the car culture because everything in a store had to get there somehow, and the most common way is by motorized vehicle (truck or van). If you are truly car-free, you grow your own food, build your own house and furniture, shear your own sheep to make your own clothes, etc. etc., all without the use of a motorized vehicle. And there aren't many people in the world, not even among the Hutterites and Amish, who can claim that.

Here in the Dallas area, the brevets tend to start at a number of different scattered locations, none of which are in the heart of downtown, and none of which are close to me. Some of the Permanent routes are a lot closer.

There's a couple of things involved, though. If you assume that a brevet ought to start close to you to participate in it, then you've got to have the whole club living close together. But you can be in the DFW "area" and live 60 miles from me. So unless you persuade everyone to move close to one central point, it's not going to happen.

The reason you even have a local club is because you can get 100 interested people out of maybe 1 or 2 or 3 million in a large metropolitan area. It's just going to automatically be the case that they come from all over that large area.

I like to ride the different charity rides. But as far as I can tell, probably 99% or more of the participants drive to the ride- and that carries over into the long distance riding.

The reason you even have a local club is because you can get 100 interested people out of maybe 1 or 2 or 3 million in a large metropolitan area. It's just going to automatically be the case that they come from all over that large area.



100 interested people???? All you need are 1 or 2 interested people in order to have a local club. My branch of the Alberta Randonneurs consists of 2 people ... me and my father. Throughout all of Alberta (which has a total population of close to 3.5 million) we might have 25 riders who claim some sort of association with the Alberta Randonneurs ... but of course it would be some sort of miracle to have that many people out to a ride.

No one is car free. Rowan and I have both tried to tell people in the Living Car Free forum that they might be "car ownership free" but that no one is car free. As soon as you purchase an item of food, or buy an ornamant or piece of furniture or a jersey you're buying into the car culture because everything in a store had to get there somehow, and the most common way is by motorized vehicle (truck or van). If you are truly car-free, you grow your own food, build your own house and furniture, shear your own sheep to make your own clothes, etc. etc., all without the use of a motorized vehicle. And there aren't many people in the world, not even among the Hutterites and Amish, who can claim that.

Good point! I'll have to revise my proud claim to being "Semi-trailer-truck free" to being "Semi-trailer-truck-ownership free".

Nick

No one is car free. Rowan and I have both tried to tell people in the Living Car Free forum that they might be "car ownership free" but that no one is car free. As soon as you purchase an item of food, or buy an ornamant or piece of furniture or a jersey you're buying into the car culture because everything in a store had to get there somehow, and the most common way is by motorized vehicle (truck or van). not to contribute to thread drift, but I've never seen the appeal of this 'guilt-by-association' line of argument in environmental debates. It's like telling people, "well, you say that you're not a racist, but you just bought a cup of coffee from a store owned by a guy who likes to post on white supremacist websites. And that coffee was picked by poor brown people whose cheap labor contributes to the profits of rich white people. You're supporting racism by association!"

Yes, I applaud people who try to make the most responsible choices possible and base their consumption, recreation and livelihoods around conscious decisions to live as closely and as consistently as possible to their ethical viewpoints; but I realize that everyone has a different definition of that. And, yes, I am also annoyed by sanctimonious so-called do-gooders who make too many exceptions for themselves. These two facts are why I stay as far as possible from the Car Free forum ;)

I think that there are only so many degrees of association for which a person should be held responsible. Otherwise, it gets too easy to call someone a hypocrite and it's too easy to discourage people from making virtuous choices. So, yes, it is impossible to live a life that is untouched by the automobile. Even one's bicycle has been built with parts that were shipped around by trucks, trains and boats. Does that mean that people shouldn't at least try to minimize their use of cars in their daily lives? Do we have to piss on their pride for trying to do something right instead of doing something that's easy?

Even one's bicycle has been built with parts that were shipped around by trucks, trains and boats. Does that mean that people shouldn't at least try to minimize their use of cars in their daily lives? Do we have to piss on their pride for trying to do something right instead of doing something that's easy?

Years ago a co-worker verbally attacked me for commuting to work by bicycle. He made the arguments about manufacturing waste, fuel consumed during supply chain, etc. Pretty ridiculous rationale to justify sitting inside a car in gridlock traffic.

I'm not car free. I own and make good use of automobiles, but am much happier riding a bicycle to work and errands where it makes sense. I won't apologize for driving my pickup < 20 miles on the weekend to haul gardening materials when I average ~100 commuting miles on bike each week.

Back to the original topic, Mattm is inspiring me to ride to more rides. The RAMROD start is less than 20 miles from my home - my only concern is how I'll feel at the end :twitchy:

I don't really know what the fuss is about.
I don't own a car, but I certainly don't make a religion of this.
mattm, you say you can afford a car, that means you can afford to rent one (assuming you have a driving licence). Problem solved.
That's what I do anyway. It happens what: a few weekends in the whole year? I think last year I rented a car three times...
If one has the feeling that this is too harmful to the environment, then one has to stay at home. Problem solved too, it's just another choice.

Does that mean that people shouldn't at least try to minimize their use of cars in their daily lives?

Absolutely! I'm all about minimizing and living more simply. I was car-ownership-free for 6 years and would be again if it were possible. It's just when people start criticizing those who own cars (as sometimes happens in the Living Car Free forum) that there needs to be a little reminder that they themselves are not truly car free either.


Back to the topic at hand ... Matt, renting a car is really the way to go if you want to go to events at some distance. When I was car-ownership-free for 6 years, I'd rent a car for the weekend, do my event on the Saturday, do a whole heap of grocery shopping and other errands on the Sunday, and then return the car of Monday. It worked out very well.

mattm, you say you can afford a car, that means you can afford to rent one (assuming you have a driving licence). Problem solved.

Bingo. I've got no guilt about liberally renting cars when I need them. And I rent the size I need for the task I need it for. I gladly rent the huge SUV when I'm transporting a bunch of people and skis and mountaineering gear from SFO to the Sierra for a long Memorial Day weekend of backcountry skiing (which, sadly, is scrapped this year because of a work conflict. :(). I've rented cars to attend brevets so I didn't tie up our one car for the weekend. (And it's pretty cool to ride your bike to the car rental place -- they look at you like you're from Mars!)

You can rent a lot of cars before you approach the cost of owning one.

There's a couple of things involved, though. If you assume that a brevet ought to start close to you to participate in it, then you've got to have the whole club living close together. But you can be in the DFW "area" and live 60 miles from me. So unless you persuade everyone to move close to one central point, it's not going to happen.

I didn't mean to infer that I think all brevets should start in the downtown core - just that they should start within a reasonable distance of whatever the central location/city is to your club.

So yeah the rides can't start close to everyone, but I think there's also a balance; and the SiR 400k starting 180 miles away is at the extreme end of the spectrum.


On being "Car-Free": Maybe this is just semantics, but it seems to me you're not really car-free if you're getting rides from people. You're making use of the services of a car, you're just not owning it. That might be a good bargain for everyone involved, including society. But after hearing someone's holier-than-thou "car-free" rant at dinner after a century training ride, and then having them ask me for a ride home, and then having to listen to their critical comments about the route that my GPS chose, and having to endure endless criticism of their annoying relatives, all the while taking an extra 45 minutes to drive them home, with no offer of gas money or anything ... well, you get the picture. I don't view them as being car-free, they're just free riders :-)

This thread wasn't supposed to be about car free/light or a debate about oil, etc. I will happily state for the record that I'm not "car free" technically, but I sure don't own a car. Like I said earlier, I've happily car-pooled in the past (and paid for gas).

Sorry to hear you've been exposed to free-loaders, but that has zero to do with my whining thread. =]


Back to the original topic, Mattm is inspiring me to ride to more rides. The RAMROD start is less than 20 miles from my home - my only concern is how I'll feel at the end :twitchy:

Cool! If I get in this year I'm definitely riding to it again from Seattle.


I don't really know what the fuss is about.
I don't own a car, but I certainly don't make a religion of this.
mattm, you say you can afford a car, that means you can afford to rent one (assuming you have a driving licence). Problem solved.
That's what I do anyway. It happens what: a few weekends in the whole year? I think last year I rented a car three times...
If one has the feeling that this is too harmful to the environment, then one has to stay at home. Problem solved too, it's just another choice.

The fuss is about the fact that I want to do (ACP-sactioned) bike rides, but I don't own a car and try to limit the amount of time I spend in them. This in turn limits the amount of "official" bike riding I can do. Hence, the fuss.

I actually don't have a driver's license (anymore) - but even armed with one and a rental car, it's not "problem solved." The problem here (I think) is that in order to do big bike rides it sounds like people do need more than a bicycle to do the rides, for the most part.

I guess I'm just saying that I think it's a sad situation, not necessarily wrong.

Back to the topic at hand ... Matt, renting a car is really the way to go if you want to go to events at some distance.

I posted this earlier, but it probably got lost in the other posts. I have a plan to do the ride.

My plan is to ride the 150 miles out there tomorrow, the day before the event. I'm getting a ride from my GF from Seattle to North Bend tomorrow AM, which will cut out a few hours of familiar (read: boring) roads.

From there I'll ride over Snoqualmie Pass, through Cle Elum, Vantage, and then arriving in Ephrata roughly 12-15 hours later.

At first I had grand plans of "stealth camping" once I got there, but after dusting off my sleeping bag, bivvy, and mat, I really started thinking about sleeping outside, and realized I was probaby biting off more than I could chew. So I got a hotel room at the start instead.

What about Sunday after the ride, you ask? Lucky for me my GF is going to be in the area (visiting family), so she's coming to scoop me up from there and deliver me back to Seatown.

In the end a bunch of gas will be burned for me; but I'm excited (and a little nervous) about tacking on the extra, but scenic, miles.

So you're riding 150 miles, sleeping one night, riding 250 the next day and then 150 back?

So you're riding 150 miles, sleeping one night, riding 250 the next day and then 150 back?

Yes - except not riding the 150 back (my GF's coming to get me). I'm not that crazy.

Yes - except not riding the 150 back

You're saving that for the 600K, eh?

I posted this earlier, but it probably got lost in the other posts. I have a plan to do the ride.

My plan is to ride the 150 miles out there tomorrow, the day before the event. I'm getting a ride from my GF from Seattle to North Bend tomorrow AM, which will cut out a few hours of familiar (read: boring) roads.

From there I'll ride over Snoqualmie Pass, through Cle Elum, Vantage, and then arriving in Ephrata roughly 12-15 hours later.

At first I had grand plans of "stealth camping" once I got there, but after dusting off my sleeping bag, bivvy, and mat, I really started thinking about sleeping outside, and realized I was probaby biting off more than I could chew. So I got a hotel room at the start instead.

What about Sunday after the ride, you ask? Lucky for me my GF is going to be in the area (visiting family), so she's coming to scoop me up from there and deliver me back to Seatown.

In the end a bunch of gas will be burned for me; but I'm excited (and a little nervous) about tacking on the extra, but scenic, miles.
Day-um, Matt! I really admire your commitment. That's going to be a big weekend of riding. I think you've raised some great points in this thread and I share your frustration. I gave up mountain biking a few years ago because it's such a car sport. I'd hate to have to give up Randonneuring for the same reason.

That said, I'll be driving to the 400K tomorrow evening because while I'm crazy enough to be a Randonneur, I apparently have a slightly different flavor of crazy than you have. :) And if I see you on the road tomorrow I'll pull over to offer you a ride!

Steve

This is exactly what I'm talking about Matt, get a hold of lonesomesteve and hitch a ride. Buy him a six pack if it makes you feel better.

A 400k after 240k to get there doesn't sound like a good idea. Of course you probably left already.

having the same issue here in VT - so we are trying to roll our own.
nearest brevets are Montreal (border crossing, and I'm not fond of their routes), Saratoga (3 hours), Westfield, MA (3.5 hours), and Boston (4+ hours). so, we are running under the Westfield MA banner a few trial brevets - the 200k was on Mother's day and I'm leading up a 300k that will leave from 5 miles from home...

good luck matt. i've always wanted to ride to the start... esp something like you are doing.
stay single, don't get into a town house renovation, and be careful not to have offspring ... and you'll be OK.

and, I totally agree with thebulls, while 40 miles is a stretch for us, our sunday ride group is planning a few rides where we car top to get to some great mountain / dirt roads. we typically like to ride out from our local coop - but going on our second season of riding together - we are looking further afield to keep things interesting. we only need to get 10 miles out to be relieved of 'city' traffic (ha!) - but it does limit the riding...

Another component to the car-free/-less equation and where rides could or should be held is the "jurisdiction" that your club serves. Does SIR serve only Seattle, or the whole state of WA? I get the sense that some clubs are much more in the service of a specific city or metropolitan area than others, in which case there's a good argument that the rides ought to be held relatively proximate to that area.

Contrast that to what we have here in Ohio, where we've got one club for a state with 10+ million people. Where should the rides be? Cincinnati? Cleveland? Columbus? Dayton? Toledo? Akron? Youngstown? Some place in between any of these? People are always traveling here, sometimes several hours, to get to the start of a brevet. The compromise we've come up with is that the rides tend to rotate around the state to inconvenience everyone equally. ;)

bmike, good luck on a VT rando club. That would be awesome. I'd so come ride with you guys. I have many fond memories of skiing there (Stowe, MRG, Smuggs, the Bush, Jay...) and I'd love to ride there someday. I'd do a brevet that came up 17 or through the notch on 108 in a heartbeat!

Contrast that to what we have here in Ohio, where we've got one club for a state with 10+ million people. Where should the rides be? Cincinnati? Cleveland? Columbus? Dayton? Toledo? Akron? Youngstown? Some place in between any of these? People are always traveling here, sometimes several hours, to get to the start of a brevet.
Exactly, I'd say this is the case for a lot (majority?) of randonneurs out there.

Matt, when you say that it appears you have to have more than a bicycle to participate to official brevets, I really feel like you are stating the obvious. (and sorry if my comment sounded a little harsh earlier on)

The way I see it, you are realizing that you have a hobby that is not fully compatible with your lifestyle, and you have to make choices that you don't like.

having the same issue here in VT - so we are trying to roll our own.
nearest brevets are Montreal (border crossing, and I'm not fond of their routes), Saratoga (3 hours), Westfield, MA (3.5 hours), and Boston (4+ hours). so, we are running under the Westfield MA banner a few trial brevets - the 200k was on Mother's day and I'm leading up a 300k that will leave from 5 miles from home...

Darn, I missed your 200k but I'd be up to doing the 300k. When is that coming up?


I'd do a brevet that came up 17 or through the notch on 108 in a heartbeat!

I do that exact route at least once a year. Hitting Smuggs Notch from the north and descending into Stowe. Then south on 100 to Waitsfield where I pick up 17. West up and over App Gap before heading north toward home. It's a real nice clockwise loop coming in around 135 miles or so but a real slow grind up App Gap with some hard miles already on the legs.

Going on any kind "ride or brevet" is a luxury. Whether or not an RBA sets up a starting location convenient to most of the local population is of little consequence. The facts are: leisure cycling, is a terribly wasteful, pollution causing endeavor. It matters little whether you happen to drive to the start or not.

But as you mentioned, the real rant had to do with the "less than logical" decisions of RBAs. Stick around long enough and you'll eventually conclude many cyclists are crazy.

Rides that make sense - no - not in the US. Nor anywhere people ride - just because they "want to."

bmike, good luck on a VT rando club. That would be awesome. I'd so come ride with you guys. I have many fond memories of skiing there (Stowe, MRG, Smuggs, the Bush, Jay...) and I'd love to ride there someday. I'd do a brevet that came up 17 or through the notch on 108 in a heartbeat!

We're running a RUSA sanctioned 300k July 26th. I've put together the route - we're going to round the lake, use a specially chartered bike ferry, cross 2-3 covered bridges, and get to ride on some fun dirt roads...

And we have the Mr. Lamb special - that is a 200k that takes in all 6 gaps in N. Vt. Middlebury, Roxbury, Lincoln (24%!), Appalachain (22%!), Moretown, and Brandon... some dirt, all fun.

PM me for more info... would love to have you.

But, I got to go. Bike is prepped. Fleche rolls tomorrow at 8am from Burlington to Westfield, MA.

(and anytime you want to roll I know some great dirt (trying to run a RUSA 200k this fall when peak leaf peeping hits...), and some great centuries that round Mansfield, cover Smuggs, App, Middlebury, you name it.)

More info here on the under construction and needs alot of work website: http://www.audaxvermont.com/index.html

Note - this isn't all me, another fellow is working hard at this - I jumped in late to help with the 300k... and I'm going to get that website sorted out if / when I ever have time....

I'm reallllly late to this thread, but:

Most of my ACP Brevets are a 3-4 hour drive from where I live. I work 50 hrs or so a week, so I have to finish work on Friday at 5-6pm, drive to the start location, get to bed by 11pm or so and wake up at 4am for the ride, so yes, a car is needed somewhere in the equation (either my own or preferably carpooling).

Not everyone has the luxury of a) living close to the start site or b) being able to take days off of work to ride to and from the brevet.

I commute to work by bike FWIW, and try to be as car-free as possible. That said, at least for me, being 100% car-free is not realistic at this point in my life. I wish it was.....

I made it!! took about 12 hours for the "commute" on friday, it was a great little ride.

the 400 was fun, but of course tough. took about 23 hours total.

got a bunch of good pics, but haven't yet uploaded them. once I get home i'll respond to some of the excellent points here.

fwiw there were two guys from montana on the 400 that said it was the closest brevet they could find! so I guess my situation could be worse..

I made it!! took about 12 hours for the "commute" on friday, it was a great little ride.

the 400 was fun, but of course tough. took about 23 hours total.

got a bunch of good pics, but haven't yet uploaded them. once I get home i'll respond to some of the excellent points here.

fwiw there were two guys from montana on the 400 that said it was the closest brevet they could find! so I guess my situation could be worse..

Congratulations -- an epic adventure (as they say)!

Our 300 would have been run-of-the-mill, except for the 15-mile sprint through thunderstorms at the end. Nowhere to shelter! Conditional on not getting hit by lightning, it was quite exciting.

Nick

I made it!! took about 12 hours for the "commute" on friday, it was a great little ride.

the 400 was fun, but of course tough. took about 23 hours total.

got a bunch of good pics, but haven't yet uploaded them. once I get home i'll respond to some of the excellent points here.

fwiw there were two guys from montana on the 400 that said it was the closest brevet they could find! so I guess my situation could be worse..

Dude, that's awesome. What a weekend fo riding -- what is that, 400 miles overall? Nice job; looking forward to the photos.....

I made it!!

Nice... :thumb: Looking forward to the ride report and photos. Time to update the SR meter.

Nice job Matt. ...and I was excited to sneak in a 70 miler from my house early Saturday morning.

Thanks y'all!

I posted the pics on flicker last night: http://www.flickr.com/photos/seabikr/sets/72157618392343800/ (~300 pics!)