Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - 1985 Raleigh Team Racing USA frame + fork

1985. 53 cm (c-t).

Reynolds 555RSL tubing (not to be confused with 555SL which appeared on the Grand Prix model that same year, 555RSL is Manganese Moly). Campagnolo fork tips and dropouts. Cinelli lugs.

Check out this page from the 1985 Raleigh catalog (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/catalogs/1985/pages/1.html). It shows their line of racing bikes which includes 4 complete bikes of varying quality. The frame shown below was nicer than any of the 4 completes and only available for purchase as frameset.

http://promenadescredit.org/public/carcaise/IMG_2376.JPG

http://promenadescredit.org/public/carcaise/IMG_2379.JPG

http://promenadescredit.org/public/carcaise/IMG_2384.JPG

http://promenadescredit.org/public/carcaise/IMG_2385.JPG

http://promenadescredit.org/public/carcaise/IMG_2386.JPG

http://promenadescredit.org/public/carcaise/IMG_2387.JPG

http://promenadescredit.org/public/carcaise/IMG_2390.JPG

Be aware that the frame comes from the period when Raleigh Cycle Company of America was simply a name licensed from Raleigh of Nottingham to Huffy (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/neago.html). They weren't Huffy bikes though; they were sourced from Taiwan and Japan.

It is a high end frame though, even if it doesn't have the most genuine pedigree. I won't venture a guess to its value because I look more closely at the low-end vintage offerings.

I'd say that's only a step above the normal Raleigh USA Competition and with the paint that way, I'd only give a max of $125 for the frame. That'd be a fight though. I'd probably not bid on it at all.

Doohickie,

Thanks for the link. However, this frame was built in the Nottingham factory. From Wikipedia (my italics below):


In 1982, rights to the Raleigh U.S.A. name were purchased by the Huffy Corporation. Under the terms of the agreement, Raleigh of England licensed Huffy to manufacture and distribute Raleigh bicycles in the USA[4], and Huffy was given instant access to a nationwide network of bike shops. The renamed Raleigh Cycle Company of America sold bikes in the US while the rest of the world, including Canada, received Raleigh of England bikes. At that time, production of Raleigh's better models were shifted to Japan; Bridgestone produced most of these machines. By 1984, all Raleighs for the American market, except the top-of-the range Team USA and Prestige road bikes (Made in Nottingham), were produced in the Far East.


In the photos, what you can't see at the bottom of the downtube are 2 stickers. The first says:


RALEIGH
555 RSL
ALL TUBES MANGANESE MOLY
Manufactured for Raleigh Cycle Company
of America by TI Reynolds Ltd.
Birmingham England

The second sticker (just below the first) reads:


Designed and engineered
in the USA
by the Raleigh Cycle Company of America
MANUFACTURED IN ENGLAND
For sale in the USA only

I'd say that's only a step above the normal Raleigh USA Competition

I think your judgment of the paint is fair, however, it went Grand Prix < Supercourse < Competition < Prestige < Team USA. So it would be more accurate to say it is "at least 2 steps above the normal Raleigh USA Competition." See the link to the '85 catalog in my original post.

Ah... good research.

I have a 1983 Marathon, and despite its Huffyness, I really enjoy riding the bike. I ran it as I found it (in a dumpster) for a while, with all the original parts (I did clean and repack the bearings). The Marathon is at the lower end of the Raleigh of America line, but it performs very well- smooth running, nice gear changes, a good quality bike. Perhaps the best bike I own presently.

I was going to suggest a value in the area of $100 earlier but didn't feel qualified. Alongside dannyg1's guess, maybe that's not so far off.

It's an interesting frame. Would be really nice to build it up with period-correct parts, and use it for tooling around town.

We've seen it's got some provenance. Any Raleigh experts care to hazard an estimate?

Be aware that the frame comes from the period when Raleigh Cycle Company of America was simply a name licensed from Raleigh of Nottingham to Huffy (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/neago.html). They weren't Huffy bikes though; they were sourced from Taiwan and Japan.

On the contrary - this is a Team Professional of English origin, badged for the Huffy-managed U.S. market back in '85. No different then any other Team Pro.

Mike has it right about the hierarchy, though I believe the full lineup ran something like this:

Grand Prix < Supercourse < Competition < Prestige < Team Professional 555RSL < Team Professional 531c < Team Professional 753.

That said, I've never been able to figure out the difference between the 555RSL Team Pro and the 531c Team Pro. Both of them are unquestionably 531 (nothing else that I know of is manganese molybdenum), hence, I am puzzled at the difference, if any.

753, of course, is a separate form of Reynolds tubing - I think I've seen one of those here on the forum (an '84?), but they're pretty hard to come by at any rate.

EDIT: Surprise, surprise - Hilary Stone just posted a 753 for sale here at C&V. 245 GBP - one of the most reasonable prices I've ever seen for one:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=541511

-Kurt

How does my '85/6 Competition with Reynolds 531 fit into all of this?

How does my '85/6 Competition with Reynolds 531 fit into all of this?

If it specifically states Reynolds 531, then it is an '86. White w/purple stays, fork, and headtube?

If so, same place as the previous hierarchy. '86 made a one-shot change to genuine 531 - I gather the 555 decals set off too many potential purchasers:

'83-85:
Grand Prix (555SL main tubes w/cro-mo fork) < Supercourse (555SL butted main tubes w/555SL fork - '85s supposedly have 555SL stays according to the catalog, but the frame decal does not correlate this) < Competition (all 555SL) < Prestige (all 555SL) < Team Professional 555RSL < Team Professional 531c < Team Professional 753.

'86:
Grand Prix (531 main tubes - I do not recall if butted or straight gauge) < Supercourse (531 butted main tubes) < Competition (all 531) < Prestige (all 531) < Team Professional 555RSL < Team Professional 531c < Team Professional 753.

-Kurt

If it specifically states Reynolds 531, then it is an '86. White w/purple stays, fork, and headtube?

If so, same place as the previous hierarchy. '86 made a one-shot change to genuine 531 - I gather the 555 decals set off too many potential purchasers:

-Kurt

Thats the one!!!

thanks,

Jim

Thats the one!!!

You better supply pictures, Jim. The first and last '86 Competition I saw (on this forum) was photographed in part, in a dimly-lit workshop.

-Kurt

You better supply pictures, Jim. The first and last '86 Competition I saw (on this forum) was photographed in part, in a dimly-lit workshop.

-Kurt

I will, its todays project.

Can anyone provide an indication as to what these have sold for in the past?

I see Hillary Stone's '89 753 is listed for 245 GBP (~$350). Repainted 5 yrs ago, comes with headset + BB.

But what about a bike more comparable to the one shown in the original post (1985, 555RSL)?

Are they rare (I've never seen another in Miami)? Do people generally recognize it as the bike the US Olympic team rode to gold medals in the 84 Los Angeles games?

But what about a bike more comparable to the one shown in the original post (1985, 555RSL)?

Are they rare (I've never seen another in Miami)? Do people generally recognize it as the bike the US Olympic team rode to gold medals in the 84 Los Angeles games?

The bike in the OP is a "Team Pro" if it has an SB-prefix serial number. Otherwise, it's not. The Racing USA frames I'm familiar with, circa '85, that were available in the US were built with 531C, and I don't believe say "Team" on them, either. They were built at Worksop, and I think would more correctly be called "Team Pro" replicas, or "USA Team" frames something along those lines. Not the same thing as a "genuine" "Team Professional."

The bike in the OP is a "Team Pro" if it has an SB-prefix serial number.

i.e., Ilkeston vs. Worksop?

-Kurt

i.e., Ilkeston vs. Worksop?

-Kurt

Yeah, that's where I was going with that.

The serial number will be on the bottom of the BB shell. If the frame was one of the SBDU sets the serial number will begin with SB followed by 4 digits the frame size will follow the serial number. There should be decals on the chainstays indicating Special Bicycle Development Unit, Ilkeston.
My first thought is the frame is a team replica and not one of the SBDU frame sets. Lp

Here is a link to my team pro: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=495294&highlight=pic+heavy

Team Professional replica then, for I recall it had the typical serial system as typical of the Raleigh USA machines. Worksop.

Quick question about the SBDU machines though - were they not purchasable by the general public? What would determine whether you would get an SBDU machine or a Worksop-built frame back when these were new?

-Kurt

Team Professional replica then, for I recall it had the typical serial system as typical of the Raleigh USA machines. Worksop.

Quick question about the SBDU machines though - were they not purchasable by the general public? What would determine whether you would get an SBDU machine or a Worksop-built frame back when these were new?

-Kurt

You would order directly from SBDU, I believe. You could probably do this through your local bike shop if they were a Raleigh dealer. If you said you wanted a custom bike, or you wanted one built with 753, this was basically the only way to go. You could order custom through Worksop, but then you'd have to specify that as well. Most people who wanted custom would probably have gone the Ilkeston route.

Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks, Picchio and Kurt.

The serial number stamped underneath the BB shell is WE5000319.

Is W for Worksop? 5 for the year 1985, right? Do you guys know what the rest of the SN means?

If the reynolds frame is manganese-moly and double-butted, but it's not reynolds 531c (8/5/8 dimension) seamless tubing, if instead it's a lower-grade of tubing, then perhaps it's a seamed version of 531 tubing, or perhaps has a slightly different alloying to otherwise save on costs. The only differences between seamed and seamless is that seamed tubes are hard to make in thinner gauges, i.e. 531p/753 dimensions (7/4/7), and so therefore it's probably an 8/5/8 frameset. It would be good to weigh this frame+fork, if it weighs 2850-2950 grams then it's an 8/5/8 frameset, like my 1977 competition G.S.

After Worksop was closed in 1982, due to a strike, Raleigh re-hired a few of the best Worksop frame builders, moved them to Nottingham, and continued to make 'W' series framesets in Nottingham. In later years these were labeled as coming from "Raleigh Special Products".

Only the first 3 digits of the serial number have special meanings, "SB" = ilkeston (special build), W=worksop(until 1981)/nottingham(1982 and later), and then a letter indicating a fornight (A=1st fortnight), then the first digit of the year, then the production number for that particular model. You have the 319th frame built in 1985, it was built on the 5th (E) fortnight of 1985.

You have a 2nd-tier Nottingham frame. In my experience, first-tier Worksop frames are every bit as good as the best Ilkeston frames in workmanship, but second tier frames are sometimes sloppy.

Interesting Racing USA frame in light of this recent discussion:

http://tinyurl.com/pvksqm

Interesting Racing USA frame in light of this recent discussion:

http://tinyurl.com/pvksqm

I am not doubting that it is one of the Carpenter frames, but I am skeptical of his claim that it is an Ilkston frame. Sheldon's site ( http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/racing-usa.html ) has two reasonably informed sources that cite that the frame was made by Marinoni for the team.

Considering that the seller cites it as being built with Cinelli lugs - when in fact this team frame uses Prugnats - I wonder whether his information is simply cut-and-paste; after all, the production Team/Team Replica frames used the Cinelli lugs.

-Kurt

I am not doubting that it is one of the Carpenter frames, but I am skeptical of his claim that it is an Ilkston frame. Sheldon's site ( http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/racing-usa.html ) has two reasonably informed sources that cite that the frame was made by Marinoni for the team.

Considering that the seller cites it as being built with Cinelli lugs - when in fact this team frame uses Prugnats - I wonder whether his information is simply cut-and-paste; after all, the production Team/Team Replica frames used the Cinelli lugs.

-Kurt

It has an SB serial number, which I highly doubt the Marinoni frames did. That feature is pretty much a slam-dunk (as per the aucton photo). Plus, while Sheldon's site does indeed indicate that Marinoni built Carpenter's LA Games frame, as well as other Levis Raleigh frames, it also states that Ilkeston built some of the Levis Raleigh team frames (using 753 and some 531, vs. Columbus for the Marinoni frames). I'm betting this frame is an Ilkeston frame, but not one of those built for the Olympics. I think the fact that the frame has the decal headbadge, the under-TT cable guides (very unusual), the number tab hanger (indicative of Ilkeston) and the drilled DO's, is pretty telling. Ilkeston did use more than one lug type, as well, AFAIK (agree that the seller may not be completely well-informed).

The Carpenter bike is an Ilkeston build. The SB serial number is enough to establish that.

Good catch - I missed the SB serial. Funny how it does not have an ounce of Raleigh pantographing on it.

I guess its back on the trail to (hopefully) see one of those Marinoni-built frames, once and for all.

-Kurt

The Connie Carpenter frame is certainly one built at Ilkeston in 1983. It is one of the first frames to be built from Imperial sized 753 tubing and one of the last to have drilled dropouts... Does anybody have the exact frame number - despite jiggerypokery with Photoshop I am not certain of the number beyond it being SB6xxx ...

Replying to a myth which is repeated about Worksop by Systembuilder - the Worksop lightweight unit was not closed due to a strike - Raleigh simply wanted to close operations which were not on its main site - and most of the workforce at Worksop moved with the Lightweight unit to Nottingham. The Lightweight unit built all the production 531 frames mostly on a production line type operation. The Team Replica frames were built in small batches, I suspect probably 20 or so of each size at a time - the catalogues through the 80s warned that these could take 12-16 weeks to be delivered. When the Lightweight Unit was at Worksop they certainly built a few custom frames - mostly I think track ones, though I am not at all certain why they should do so when Ilkeston existed. I've not seen any custom frames from the Lightweight Unit after they moved to Nottingham. I rather suspect that the Worksop custom frames came about because the person in question personally knew someone at the Lightweight Unit...
Ilkeston primarily built frames in stock sizes with stock dimensions - there were custom frames for special riders and of course the Team and a few others... Most were built from 753 though 531 frames were also available - I've had a couple of Ilkeston built 531 frames with mudguard clearance (I have one for sale at present) and the Cross frames were all built as far as I know at Ilkeston most from 531. Of course there were many track and TT frames too which I would guess to be almost entirely specials. The facility at Ilkeston was I think organised quite differently - there was no production line like there was at the Lightweight Unit, Worksop or at the Lightweight Unit after being moved to Nottingham. When Ilkeston was moved to Nottingham (late 1987 I think) it retained its independence for quite some time at least until the SPD (Special Products) was founded in 1990... The Worksop style frame numbers with a W prefix, second letter for fortnight and first number for year continued right through until 1989. The rest of the numbers are not straightforward - certainly the LW unit made more than 500 frames in 10 weeks (5 fortnights) - my best gues is that that different numbers were used according to the frame model produced - all the Team Replica frames have quite low numbers whatever fortnight they were made in the year.
Likewise Ilkeston SBDU numbers continued through probably to 1990/1 - after SPD was founded.

Hilary Stone

Funny how it does not have an ounce of Raleigh pantographing on it.
-Kurt

I've owned 4 Ilkeston frames, and none of them had any Raleigh pantographing.

The Connie Carpenter frame is certainly one built at Ilkeston in 1983. It is one of the first frames to be built from Imperial sized 753 tubing and one of the last to have drilled dropouts... Does anybody have the exact frame number - despite jiggerypokery with Photoshop I am not certain of the number beyond it being SB6xxx ...
Hilary Stone

I used higgeltypiggelty and get SB6024. I'll let you know for certain when it gets here and I can use my own two eyes.

Ed

I've owned 4 Ilkeston frames, and none of them had any Raleigh pantographing.

Well, at least I know what to look for if I ever want an Ilkeston frame.

-Kurt

P.S.: The only thing that ticks me off is that it took 5 years to find out that Ilkeston frames are done in this fashion. You'd think someone would have documented this and made a halfway-decent site to break down the build variants between versions for newcomers (as opposed to the detail-lacking Retro-Raleghs page).

Well, at least I know what to look for if I ever want an Ilkeston frame.

-Kurt

P.S.: The only thing that ticks me off is that it took 5 years to find out that Ilkeston frames are done in this fashion. You'd think someone would have documented this and made a halfway-decent site to break down the build variants between versions for newcomers (as opposed to the detail-lacking Retro-Raleghs page).

That's a good suggestion. Maybe Hilary's working on something like that - it would make a nice addition to the vintage lightweights UK site.
The frames are pretty distinctive, for the most part. But you're right that a morphology would be well worth doing. I think some of this info has only started to come together relatively recently - in part because of the info shared at the Ti-Raleigh Yahoo Group.

I've owned 4 Ilkeston frames, and none of them had any Raleigh pantographing.

My frame has no pantographing either,although I do think it is a very nice touch. The Raleigh Ti Yahoo group is about the best site for all things SBDU. Although there are a few more articles on the www. I will post links when I get home this evening. Lp

I am working on a timeline and article on SBDU - I am very nearly there for the present - and have to make one phone call and bring some images together and I will have a feature on the British Classic Lightweights site with bits repeated on the Yahoo Team Pro group.

rgds

Hilary

I am working on a timeline and article on SBDU - I am very nearly there for the present - and have to make one phone call and bring some images together and I will have a feature on the British Classic Lightweights site with bits repeated on the Yahoo Team Pro group.

rgds

Hilary

Cool! I was hoping something like that was in the works. Thanks for all the work you do putting together the pieces of the historical puzzle.

You better supply pictures, Jim. The first and last '86 Competition I saw (on this forum) was photographed in part, in a dimly-lit workshop.

-Kurt


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/Raleigh%20Competition/DSC02498-1.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/Raleigh%20Competition/DSC02500-1.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/Raleigh%20Competition/DSC02499-1.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/Raleigh%20Competition/DSC02501-1.jpg

Very nice, ATMO.

A few stray points...

I have a friend who owns an LBS. In his shop today I saw a bike like miamijim's, equipped
with full Shimano Golden Arrow group priced at $400; sold for $350. Very nice riding
condition.

I don't follow Raleigh closely but I am on Ebay regularly and I have the impression that the
higher end Raleighs, especially the 80s bikes, are "cheap" in cost, relatively speaking. I'm
frequently surprised at what they (don't) bring.

I have an 1985 Ilkeston (SDBU serial number) 531c frame that is absolutely beautifully
built and finished and I wouldn't sell it for what I think it would bring on Ebay. As a matter of fact, the Hillary Stone bike
mentioned earlier in this thread was/is a fine buy for someone.

I'm
frequently surprised at what they (don't) bring.

In some cases. I've seen some of the '84-5 machines (with chrome stays, headtube, and forks) bring up to $350 in stock configurations (Suntour Cyclone/Cyclone M-II, Shimano Golden Arrow 105, Suntour ARX; for the Competition, Super Course, and Grand Prix, respectively). Quite high for a mass-produced Japanese frame with run-of-the-mill components, if you ask me. Decent components they are, but nothing extraordinary.

-Kurt

Agreed. I pointed out the same paradox.

My main point concerning value had to do with the higher end bikes which have not
enjoyed the same appreciation. Of course, "extraordinary" is in the eye of the beholder.

The people driving the cost of the more consumer oriented models are buying on emotion,
buying what they know, eating bananas instead of cherries. i wager they don't feel they "deserve"
or know how to appreciate a better bike. ;-)

Different markets at work.

J


In some cases. I've seen some of the '84-5 machines (with chrome stays, headtube, and forks) bring up to $350 in stock configurations (Suntour Cyclone/Cyclone M-II, Shimano Golden Arrow 105, Suntour ARX; for the Competition, Super Course, and Grand Prix, respectively). Quite high for a mass-produced Japanese frame with run-of-the-mill components, if you ask me. Decent components they are, but nothing extraordinary.

-Kurt

In some cases. I've seen some of the '84-5 machines (with chrome stays, headtube, and forks) bring up to $350 in stock configurations (Suntour Cyclone/Cyclone M-II, Shimano Golden Arrow 105, Suntour ARX; for the Competition, Super Course, and Grand Prix, respectively). Quite high for a mass-produced Japanese frame with run-of-the-mill components, if you ask me. Decent components they are, but nothing extraordinary.

-Kurt

I almost bought a Grand Prix (one of the later ones with 531 main tubes - '87?) for $145 not long ago, not including shipping. I thought the bike was worth every bit of $200 shipped, even as a lesser model - functional and reasonably attractive. Someone beat me to the reduced Buy It Now after I had negotiated the lower price with the seller - C'est La Vie. I'd definitely go for another one (or slightly better model) in that price range - they're on my radar screen now, along with Panasonics.

Quite high for a mass-produced Japanese frame with run-of-the-mill components, if you ask me. Decent components they are, but nothing extraordinary.

-Kurt

Mine says 'Made in Taiwann' :( . It appears to have a 30.0mm headtube.