Bicycle Mechanics - Headset Probelms

I have the same frame and fork as the ones in this picture. This is NOT a picture of my bike. It's just one i found online. I put it here in case you wanted to know what model it is or what ever.
http://g.imagehost.org/0096/quicksilver001gc1.jpg

I got a frame which came with a fork. The headset was all messed up. I Did the measurements to find it uses an Integrated 1 1\8" headset. Went out and bought a new one took the fork off and this is where my problem comes in.

As soon as I took fork off the top bearings fell right out. I didn't even bump it or knock or shake the frame, they just fell right out. Upon inspection the bearings were broken. A crack right down the bearing ring where the balls sit in. This top one fell apart after handling it. so i just through it away.

The bottom bearings where sealed and didn't fall out. I took a screw driver to try and wedge them out. but it broke the seal and i separated the inner race from the out. the result is the pictures below.


http://f.imagehost.org/t/0985/DSC00010.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0985/DSC00010)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0790/DSC00011.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0790/DSC00011)
(click images to make larger)


This really didn't matter to me at first because I figured I was going to replace them anyways. But then I realized my challenge. If these bearing were sealed then the outer race was still inside the Frame... which it is. Now I need to find a way to take them out so I can put my new ones in. They are in there very tight. I figured they could just slip out.

Now I don't think i can use a headset cup remover (http://f.imagehost.org/t/0470/headset-cup-remove.jpg) becuase there really isn't a cup to remove. If the frame is made for integrated headsets, then it has a grove on the inside for the bearing to sit on. That way they don't go all up and down the inside the head tube. (see image)
http://f.imagehost.org/t/0622/integrated_headset.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0622/integrated_headset)


If I used the headset cup remover (http://f.imagehost.org/t/0470/headset-cup-remove.jpg) tool, all i would do is ruin the head tube on my frame and the outer race would probably just stay there nice and stuck...

So my question is. [B]How to I remove the outer race from my head tube with out damaging the frame? I took a few pictures. I don't know if they would help much, but here they are...
http://f.imagehost.org/t/0292/DSC00001.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0292/DSC00001)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0980/DSC00002.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0980/DSC00002)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0873/DSC00003_8.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0873/DSC00003_8)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0669/DSC00004.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0669/DSC00004)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0582/DSC00005.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0582/DSC00005)
(click images to make larger)







Also I have another question that regards my new head set. The thing that i think is a crown doesn't fit my fork. Did I get the wrong headset? Is this thing even a crown?

http://f.imagehost.org/0089/DSC00013.jpg
http://f.imagehost.org/0480/DSC00006.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/0089/DSC00013.jpg)
http://f.imagehost.org/0684/DSC00016.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/0089/DSC00013.jpg)

This is as far as it goes down. It won't go past the last little edge towards the bottom of the steering tube. With out this crown thing my new bearings will sit around the fork just fine. should i even use this crown thing? If it's not a crown but i still need it, then what do i do? should i look into getting a different headset? maybe one that comes with the right crown. Or is there a place where I could buy just an individual crown that fits my fork just right?

Its possible you bought the wrong headset. Its also possible that the crown is correct for the steerer tube but needs to be pressed on...back in my shop days we had a pipe like tool that slipped over the steerer tube to help seat the crown in place. My recommendation is to take your fork, frame, and headset to a decent bike shop and ask for advice. If you need a different headset they should be able to tell you and probably will have one available for purchase (or can order you the right one). If you are confident you can do the work then take the advice (and parts) you get back home and geterdone.

Your bearings don't look to be sealed (as in cartridge) type bearings. The red rings just look like normal gasket/labyrinth type seals to prevent dirt and water contamination.

Btw, Scatante is Performance Bike Shop's (internet & mail order) house brand, you could call their 800 number and speak with their tech department to get the specs on your frame and headset.

-j

the bearings aren't sealed now obviously, but i know at one point they where. the inner race has become separated from the outer. My speculation is that someone used a headset press and went a bit too hard. So I need to get the outer race out now. any ideas?

The crown has a diameter that is smaller than the bottom of the steering tube which is why it won't go all the way down. I am pretty sure i need the crown. so couldn't i just go out and buy a different one?

but mainly i would like to focus on this outer race problem. how do i get them out?

OK...

1. get on the phone and call performance bike shop they have an 800 number you get from their website. So you can find out more about the parts you have and the parts you need.

2. either take your frame to a shop to have them remove the bearing race...OR...take a thin flat head screw driver like a jewlers screwdriver and tap it in between the bottom of the race and the top of the headtube (from the outside of the frame). Work around so you create a gap that you can then insert a sturdier flat head screwdriver into so you can carefully pry the bearing race out. From the second pic in the top row of pics it looks like this can be done.

3. After removing the bearing race...take your frame to a good quality bike shop and have them assess what headset you will need to put on your frame. You may need to have the headtube faced as well (depending on the headset you need to install)...the top surface of your headset looks pretty gnarly in your pictures.

4. You can claim all you want that your bearings were at one time sealed, but that either indicates your definition of sealed is different than the industry or the pictures you present are different than what you pulled out of your headset. The caged bearings in your picture are not what you would find in a sealed bearing system...and as I indicated in my last post, sealed in this instance refers to a cartridge type bearing. There are headsets that use the sealed cartridge bearings but the caged bearings you show are not typical of them. But my experience is limited...by 24 years of working on bicycles...so maybe...just maybe I got this whole maintenance thing all wrong.

-j

I went over to performance and they tried tapping it out with a screw driver. But it wouldn't budge. So then they tried cutting through it with a grinding tool. it didn't work too well. the grinder lost about 1\4 and the race is still in there. This is what the top looks like now.
http://f.imagehost.org/t/0192/DSC00004.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0192/DSC00004)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0092/DSC00005.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0092/DSC00005)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0990/DSC00006.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0990/DSC00006)

They said to try a dremel tool but take caution. Before I go cutting anything I'll try Greenfieldja's suggestion. Wedging a small screw driver just sounds safer.

Also I have come across something that might change my situation. Upon further inspection I found small text on the top of my head tube. At least I thought it was the head tube. Now have doubts. Take a look.
http://f.imagehost.org/t/0229/DSC00001.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0229/DSC00001)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0390/DSC00002.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0390/DSC00002)http://f.imagehost.org/t/0789/DSC00003.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0789/DSC00003)
The text reads:
TH INDUSTRIES 1 1\8" ACB36x36

I think the white part is actual frame. Where as the clear metal just above it (which has the text) is probably part of the head set. I'm not too sure. But if this is the case, I could just put it in a vice and brake it out. Then all I would have to do is find some way of getting the bottom race out. Again, I'm not sure. I would like a second opinion before i go bending stuff. Is this area with the text part of the frame? If not will putting it in a vice have the potential of ruining my frame?

Let me know what you think. anything is helpful! thanks

Ok...after your last post I did a bit of poking around on the internet. From what I can tell your picture of the part stuck in your headtube is the outer portion of the bearing cartridge. Scratch what I stated about caged bearings for now. The steel that this part is made from is probably hardened and that is why the grinder did not fair well with it. A dremel probably will be equally unsuccessful. Since it is sticking up the way it is you should be able to crush it in a vise....but I would be very careful in this process so that it does not damage the headtube as it deforms. You should be able to pry it out once it starts to deform. Or you can just work on prying it out as I mentioned in my previous post.

I think there was a thread here a few weeks ago that discussed the possibility of modifying the internal area of the headtube so that it would accept a standard 1 1/8" threadless headset. This may be the best option for you in the future.

Here is a picture I found of what the complete bearing should look like, it has the same markings you mention in your post (TH INDUSTRIES 1 1\8" ACB36x36).


-j

I used a dremel tool and cut it out. Worked like a charm!

TOP
http://g.imagehost.org/t/0696/hst01.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0696/hst01)http://g.imagehost.org/t/0155/hst02.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0155/hst02)http://g.imagehost.org/t/0464/hst03.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0464/hst03)

BOTTOM
http://g.imagehost.org/t/0462/hsu00.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0462/hsu00)http://g.imagehost.org/t/0373/hsu01.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0373/hsu01)http://g.imagehost.org/t/0267/hsu02.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0267/hsu02)









I noticed some stuff around the outer race. I think it's glue!
http://g.imagehost.org/t/0862/hst04.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0862/hst04)http://g.imagehost.org/t/0271/hst05.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0271/hst05)


The bottom one didn't seem to have as much though
http://g.imagehost.org/t/0675/hsu03.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0675/hsu03)http://g.imagehost.org/t/0573/hsu04.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0573/hsu04)