"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - 2 x 20 Workout?

I only had time to do a 1 x 30 (roughly) and couldn't get the 2 x 20's in. The data includes warm up and cool down.

1. Is a HR of 86% typical during the effort?
2. I am estimating my ftp as 260 watts right now.
3. Is a VI of 1.02 for the 20 minute effort good as well? I can't easily find a less interrupted course without driving somewhere.
4. Anything else of interest?

Thanks.


Polar #1:
Duration: 40:28
Work: 515 kJ
TSS: 55 (intensity factor 0.903)
Norm Power: 235
VI: 1.11
Pw:HR: 13.6%
Pa:HR: -3.24%
Distance: 13.419 mi
Elevation Gain: 240 ft
Elevation Loss: 249 ft
Grade: -0.0 % (-10 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 739 212 watts
Heart Rate: 77 163 145 bpm
Cadence: 29 108 89 rpm
Speed: 2.7 30 19.9 mph
Pace 2:00 21:57 3:01 min/mi
Altitude: 761 801 781 ft
Crank Torque: 0 836 201 lb-in

Entire workout (212 watts):
Duration: 40:28
Work: 515 kJ
TSS: 55 (intensity factor 0.903)
Norm Power: 235
VI: 1.11
Pw:HR: 13.6%
Pa:HR: -3.24%
Distance: 13.419 mi
Elevation Gain: 240 ft
Elevation Loss: 249 ft
Grade: -0.0 % (-10 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 739 212 watts
Heart Rate: 77 163 145 bpm
Cadence: 29 108 89 rpm
Speed: 2.7 30 19.9 mph
Pace 2:00 21:57 3:01 min/mi
Altitude: 761 801 781 ft
Crank Torque: 0 836 201 lb-in

Peak 5s (714 watts):
Duration: 0:05
Work: 4 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Pw:HR: 6.37%
Pa:HR: 0.86%
Distance: 149 ft
Elevation Gain: 0 ft
Elevation Loss: 0 ft
Grade: 0.0 % (0 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 684 739 714 watts
Heart Rate: 118 131 126 bpm
Cadence: 89 102 99 rpm
Speed: 19.5 20.9 20.3 mph
Pace 2:52 3:05 2:57 min/mi
Altitude: 778 778 778 ft
Crank Torque: 573 650 612 lb-in

Peak 10s (635 watts):
Duration: 0:10
Work: 6 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Pw:HR: 22.56%
Pa:HR: 2.7%
Distance: 298 ft
Elevation Gain: 0 ft
Elevation Loss: 0 ft
Grade: 0.0 % (0 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 492 739 635 watts
Heart Rate: 111 136 127 bpm
Cadence: 75 102 92 rpm
Speed: 17.9 21.5 20.3 mph
Pace 2:47 3:21 2:57 min/mi
Altitude: 778 778 778 ft
Crank Torque: 416 723 590 lb-in

Peak 20s (493 watts):
Duration: 0:20
Work: 10 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Pw:HR: 51.85%
Pa:HR: 3.97%
Distance: 593 ft
Elevation Gain: 0 ft
Elevation Loss: 3 ft
Grade: -0.6 % (-3 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 258 739 493 watts
Heart Rate: 91 144 130 bpm
Cadence: 49 106 91 rpm
Speed: 14 21.6 20.2 mph
Pace 2:47 4:16 2:58 min/mi
Altitude: 774 778 777 ft
Crank Torque: 227 836 478 lb-in

Peak 30s (419 watts):
Duration: 0:30
Work: 13 kJ
TSS: 2.2 (intensity factor 1.61)
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Pw:HR: 58.77%
Pa:HR: 5.21%
Distance: 917 ft
Elevation Gain: 0 ft
Elevation Loss: 3 ft
Grade: -0.4 % (-3 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 244 739 419 watts
Heart Rate: 91 151 136 bpm
Cadence: 49 106 93 rpm
Speed: 14 22.6 20.8 mph
Pace 2:39 4:16 2:53 min/mi
Altitude: 774 778 776 ft
Crank Torque: 215 836 396 lb-in

Peak 1min (333 watts):
Duration: 1:00
Work: 20 kJ
TSS: 2.3 (intensity factor 1.186)
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Pw:HR: 47.78%
Pa:HR: 6.21%
Distance: 0.359 mi
Elevation Gain: 0 ft
Elevation Loss: 3 ft
Grade: -0.2 % (-3 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 203 739 333 watts
Heart Rate: 91 156 145 bpm
Cadence: 49 106 96 rpm
Speed: 14 22.6 21.5 mph
Pace 2:39 4:16 2:47 min/mi
Altitude: 774 778 775 ft
Crank Torque: 172 836 305 lb-in

Peak 2min (303 watts):
Duration: 2:00
Work: 36 kJ
TSS: 4.1 (intensity factor 1.113)
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Pw:HR: 25.18%
Pa:HR: 13.39%
Distance: 0.697 mi
Elevation Gain: 10 ft
Elevation Loss: 3 ft
Grade: 0.2 % (7 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 203 739 303 watts
Heart Rate: 91 160 152 bpm
Cadence: 49 106 95 rpm
Speed: 14 22.6 20.9 mph
Pace 2:39 4:16 2:52 min/mi
Altitude: 774 784 777 ft
Crank Torque: 172 836 275 lb-in

Peak 5min (271 watts):
Duration: 5:00
Work: 81 kJ
TSS: 8.7 (intensity factor 1.024)
Norm Power: 266
VI: 0.98
Pw:HR: 9.62%
Pa:HR: 6.85%
Distance: 1.735 mi
Elevation Gain: 30 ft
Elevation Loss: 26 ft
Grade: 0.0 % (3 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 148 739 271 watts
Heart Rate: 91 160 154 bpm
Cadence: 49 106 94 rpm
Speed: 14 24.4 20.8 mph
Pace 2:27 4:16 2:53 min/mi
Altitude: 764 784 775 ft
Crank Torque: 133 836 247 lb-in

Peak 10min (263 watts):
Duration: 10:00
Work: 158 kJ
TSS: 17.1 (intensity factor 1.014)
Norm Power: 264
VI: 1
Pw:HR: 7.44%
Pa:HR: 1.48%
Distance: 3.468 mi
Elevation Gain: 82 ft
Elevation Loss: 82 ft
Grade: 0.0 % (0 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 739 263 watts
Heart Rate: 91 160 155 bpm
Cadence: 36 106 92 rpm
Speed: 11.9 26.2 20.8 mph
Pace 2:17 5:03 2:53 min/mi
Altitude: 761 801 779 ft
Crank Torque: 0 836 243 lb-in

Peak 20min (250 watts):
Duration: 20:00
Work: 300 kJ
TSS: 32.2 (intensity factor 0.983)
Norm Power: 256
VI: 1.02
Pw:HR: 9.38%
Pa:HR: -1.39%
Distance: 6.951 mi
Elevation Gain: 151 ft
Elevation Loss: 144 ft
Grade: 0.0 % (7 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 739 250 watts
Heart Rate: 91 163 154 bpm
Cadence: 35 106 91 rpm
Speed: 2.7 30 20.9 mph
Pace 2:00 21:57 2:53 min/mi
Altitude: 761 801 779 ft
Crank Torque: 0 836 232 lb-in

Peak 30min (239 watts):
Duration: 30:00
Work: 430 kJ
TSS: 46.1 (intensity factor 0.96)
Norm Power: 250
VI: 1.05
Pw:HR: 8.25%
Pa:HR: -6.78%
Distance: 10.531 mi
Elevation Gain: 200 ft
Elevation Loss: 210 ft
Grade: -0.0 % (-10 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 739 239 watts
Heart Rate: 79 163 153 bpm
Cadence: 29 108 91 rpm
Speed: 2.7 30 21.1 mph
Pace 2:00 21:57 2:51 min/mi
Altitude: 761 801 778 ft
Crank Torque: 0 836 221 lb-in

a. You may get better answers in the training & nutrition, or racing forums
b. That's a lot of data...

1. 86% of what?
2. ok
3. That's fairly low for riding on the road, it sounds like it was fairly well paced. However were those high 5s, 10s, 30s, etc. efforts part of the 30 min you were interested in? If so, you shouldn't go so hard for a steady pacing effort.
4. I'm surprised 250W for 10 miles with only 200 feet of elevation gain wasn't faster than that... how much do you weigh?

212W avg. for a 19.9mph avg. sounds pretty accurate to me.

I did a 223W 54 min. workout on a flat course and I got 19.6mph avg. But then, I'm slightly over 180lbs, while CC is a little lighter than me.

212W avg. for a 19.9mph avg. sounds pretty accurate to me.

I did a 223W 54 min. workout on a flat course and I got 19.6mph avg. But then, I'm slightly over 180lbs, while CC is a little lighter than me.

I was looking at the 30 minute. Not saying it's wrong, just that it seems like 239W should have been good for more than 21mph. I did roughly 22 at 250W for 40min the other day on a relatively flat (~300 feet gained) course, but I'm a good bit lighter than you ;)

Edit: I found a similar ride where 220 was 19.4 and 230 was 20 so if 250 is 22 then I guess 240 would be about 21 :p. Like I said, wasn't saying it was wrong, just seemed low at first glance.

UMD,

1. 86% of max heart rate. This is pretty typical?
3. OK, so a VI of 1.02 is steady enough, good. The higher efforts were from starts, etc. mostly outside of the 20 minute window.
4. The speed was low because I was into the wind most of the time. I weigh 168 lbs right now ... but finally dropping slooooowly. :( oink

It is going to make more sense to think of HR as % of LT not max.

I'm moving this to racing, as they are much more well-informed about this material there.

Thanks crassic.

OK UMD, I think my LT is 92% of my HR max. What % of max HR do you average for the 20 minute workouts?

color: why are you thinking about HR if you have a power meter? As far as I know, no one using power bases their workout on HR, they just check HR to ensure the body is playing along.

Do a 20' test time trial/race effort. subtract 5% use that number for your 2x20'.... someone here might correct me

Thanks crassic.

OK UMD, I think my LT is 92% of my HR max. What % of max HR do you average for the 20 minute workouts?

Well the point is that if you are going to look at HR it should be as a % of the LT not the max. The max doesn't really mean much. For a 2x20 type effort my HR will be slightly higher than my LR HR. I think IIRC my HR @ FTP is about 105% - 110% of my LT HR.

I would say that if all the max's you show were part of the interval itself, your pacing is not good. 400 and something for a 30 second portion of that effort would throw the "plan" off.

Either way, I would disagree and say that 1.02 really isn't great for a 2x20 effort. I did 3x20's today and my 3rd interval included some intentional over/under work in the last 5 minutes and I still only rolled a 1.02 VI with the slighlty inflated pNorm - average power was actually exactly the same as as the second interval.

Finally... if you're training with power, heart rate is nothing more than a sanity check if you even use it. I've had my heart rate strap on once this year, and really don't even know why I did that. It was just in the van when I was getting ready to race.

But to answer your question, my max HR is ~194, my threshold HR was 177ish. 2x20's would see my HR level off at the 180ish mark in the second interval. Average would be lower than threshold, if not right at threshold from the ramp up time at the beginning of the intervals.

Nomad, he said that those peak values were not part of the effort, and I did say that 1.02 was "fairly good", not that it was great.

^^
okies... wasn't trying to be disagreeable. kinda tired tonight and just kinda skimmed the stuff before my post.

212W avg. for a 19.9mph avg. sounds pretty accurate to me.

I did a 223W 54 min. workout on a flat course and I got 19.6mph avg. But then, I'm slightly over 180lbs, while CC is a little lighter than me.

Training to try and hang with CC and friends,dropped twice.I did a hard flat 57 minute effort last Monday
182 watts 19.9mph avg.I weigh in at a whole 128 pounds.

I was looking at the 30 minute. Not saying it's wrong, just that it seems like 239W should have been good for more than 21mph. I did roughly 22 at 250W for 40min the other day on a relatively flat (~300 feet gained) course, but I'm a good bit lighter than you ;)

Edit: I found a similar ride where 220 was 19.4 and 230 was 20 so if 250 is 22 then I guess 240 would be about 21 :p. Like I said, wasn't saying it was wrong, just seemed low at first glance.

The question would be how much lighter. :D

it's not about the numbers.

it's not about the numbers.

Incorrect

1st Place, 2nd Place, 3rd Place are all numbers.;)

it's not about the numbers.


Incorrect

1st Place, 2nd Place, 3rd Place are all numbers.;)


classic.

it's not about the numbers.

Says the man with a harem of timepieces.

Says the man with a harem of timepieces.

None of which I wear while riding.

None of which I wear while riding.

Not true, I've seen you post a picture of you riding with a watch on your wrist. I'm not going to go digging for it, but it might have been in the maratona thread that you started.

Aside: When will you be around these parts this summer?

Not true, I've seen you post a picture of you riding with a watch on your wrist. I'm not going to go digging for it, but it might have been in the maratona thread that you started.

Aside: When will you be around these parts this summer?

once.

How do we know you don't do it all the time when no one's watching, eh?

suppose you want to improve your 20mp, would it be better to try and push the HR a little higher during the 20 minute interval, or would it be better to just add ANOTHER 20 minute interval at the original LTHR / power level ?

suppose you want to improve your 20mp, would it be better to try and push the HR a little higher during the 20 minute interval, or would it be better to just add ANOTHER 20 minute interval at the original LTHR / power level ?

maybe I should rephrase this question, pardon the self-quoted reply...:


If you have improved your 20 mp, did you achieve it by simply adding more 20 minute intervals to your 2x20's OR did you increase the effort of your normal 2x20 intervals?

maybe I should rephrase this question, pardon the self-quoted reply...:


If you have improved your 20 mp, did you achieve it by simply adding more 20 minute intervals to your 2x20's OR did you increase the effort of your normal 2x20 intervals?

What is it that you are trying to accomplish? Last time I looked there wasn't a "best 2x20" number race in my area. Don't get me wrong because I am a big believer in this type of training. But the point of the training shouldn't be just to get better at training.

Added in edit: I sometimes do these solely for the suffering. Learning how to suffer on the bike is good.

What is it that you are trying to accomplish? Last time I looked there wasn't a "best 2x20" number race in my area. Don't get me wrong because I am a big believer in this type of training. But the point of the training shouldn't be just to get better at training.

Added in edit: I sometimes do these solely for the suffering. Learning how to suffer on the bike is good.

Are you saying that there is no point in doing 2x20's except for adaptation to suffering?


There has to be more to it.

Are you saying that there is no point in doing 2x20's except for adaptation to suffering?


There has to be more to it.

There is. 2x20's are only part of your training. What is accomplished with 2x20's depends on what else you do as well as how you do them (sub or super FTP).

And they really are good for adaptation to suffering, especially the super-FTP ones. Today's ride was also good for that, but in a different way: temps in the 50's F, steady rain, wind gusts up to 30 mph, 2.5 hours on the bike by myself. My feet have finally stopped stinging. Conditions were so nasty that I took my commuter bike out (mid 1980's Cannondale) and I rocked toe clips and my ancient cleated road shoes.