Electric Bikes - Future of electric bicycles

Is this technology here yet or in the next 5-20 years? Can a electric bicycle batteries last for over 5 years of continuous electric bicycle riding (like traveling 30,000 or more miles) without charging the battery one time? After that then charging time with this electric bicycle only takes 4-6 hours or less on a standard 110v outlet and after that charging the batteries the bicycle it will have another 5 years of continuous riding before charging the bicycle again? :D

Thanks,

bluetriforce

no. I very much doubt it.

I don't think so myself. Part of it has to do with the inefficiencies of the elelctric motors.

See the motor is on it's own fixed gearset usually, or it's a rim drive system (obscenely ineefficient). what you need is a freewheel crankset, where the cinarings will turn, but not your pedals, to get the most out of an electric bike...for this one reason: it will sue your bikes exisiting 21+ gears. This allows you to use a lower gear on climbs and a higher gear on declines, maximizing power efficiency.

The problem with this is insanely increased complexity of teh bike. Plus where is the electricity coming from? Fossil fuels? If so, thats jsut conterproductive.

If we were forced to make out power and motors effient who knows? but right now there is no modivation to do so.

Is this technology here yet or in the next 5-20 years? Can a electric bicycle batteries last for over 5 years of continuous electric bicycle riding (like traveling 30,000 or more miles) without charging the battery one time? After that then charging time with this electric bicycle only takes 4-6 hours or less on a standard 110v outlet and after that charging the batteries the bicycle it will have another 5 years of continuous riding before charging the bicycle again? :D

Thanks,

bluetriforce

It would take a major technological breakthrough. The solar racers aren't even close to what you asked about and many of them use some pretty cuttong edge (and expensive) technology. There's a big difference between electronics, which require next to no power, and an electric device that is expected to do something.

Next question is: Who would buy it and for what price? I don't think that bicycle riders is the market. It's more likely to be Lambretta people and there aren't very many of them.

I really don't think it is going to happen. Batteries are batteries and they all work on the same basic principles. What you are asking for is a tremendous improvement in the performance over current batteries. I mean it is conceivable that batteries will improve 50% but not the amount you are asking for.

A dealer rep came out to one of our club rides with an electric bike that you could pedal or use the batteries as a power assist. The thing was it was heavy (40lbs) and the max speed was about 15 mph and a range of 30 miles. With a bike that heavy, most people were far better off riding a conventional bike and forgetting about it.

Is this technology here yet or in the next 5-20 years? Can a electric bicycle batteries last for over 5 years of continuous electric bicycle riding (like traveling 30,000 or more miles) without charging the battery one time? After that then charging time with this electric bicycle only takes 4-6 hours or less on a standard 110v outlet and after that charging the batteries the bicycle it will have another 5 years of continuous riding before charging the bicycle again?


Hmm... let's do a little rough math here.

Bicycling magazine once published some figures for calorie burn rate. Let's assume rider weight of 170 lbs. and an average speed of 15MPH. The figure I have is 0.0561 Cal/lb-min. for flat terrain. So given that...

0.0561 Cal/lb-min x 170 lbs x 525,600 min/year * 5 years = 2,5063,236 Cals

Converted to joules that's 104,934,756,484.8 joules. Just to give you an idea of how much energy that is, a gallon of gasoline has about 1.3x10^8 joules worth of energy. Thus we're talking about 800 gals worth of gas here. In order to achieve this type of energy density, in a compact enough form to be placed on a bicycle, you need to start looking at miniature nuclear batteries. Have you been talking to Fleischmann and Ponds?

>>Batteries are batteries and they all work on the same basic principles.
except when they are fuel cells. Methanol liquid or hydrogen has a fairly high energy density, and once you have used up a cylinder, you dont have to spend all night recharging, you just refill. Aprilla have a prototype.
Most electric bikes couple heavy batteries with crappy materials and poor engineering.

Hmm... let's do a little rough math here.

Bicycling magazine once published some figures for calorie burn rate. Let's assume rider weight of 170 lbs. and an average speed of 15MPH. The figure I have is 0.0561 Cal/lb-min. for flat terrain. So given that...

0.0561 Cal/lb-min x 170 lbs x 525,600 min/year * 5 years = 2,5063,236 Cals

Converted to joules that's 104,934,756,484.8 joules. Just to give you an idea of how much energy that is, a gallon of gasoline has about 1.3x10^8 joules worth of energy. Thus we're talking about 800 gals worth of gas here. In order to achieve this type of energy density, in a compact enough form to be placed on a bicycle, you need to start looking at miniature nuclear batteries. Have you been talking to Fleischmann and Ponds?

I have a zero-point energy drive that you might be interested in. ;)
This guy might also be able to help: http://www.davesplanet.net/store/

I have a zero-point energy drive that you might be interested in. ;)
This guy might also be able to help: http://www.davesplanet.net/store/

That website is such a ripoff. I can find better deals on eBay. Plus it doesn't seem like they stock any Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators.

The future is here:
http://www.ecospeed.net/index.html

They are now offering a 650 watt motor powered by 24V lithium ion batteries.

See the motor is on it's own fixed gearset usually, or it's a rim drive system (obscenely ineefficient). what you need is a freewheel crankset, where the cinarings will turn, but not your pedals, to get the most out of an electric bike...for this one reason: it will sue your bikes exisiting 21+ gears. This allows you to use a lower gear on climbs and a higher gear on declines, maximizing power efficiency.


Damn... You think just like I do. I just described that exact system in another post. Basically, replace the crankset with a freewheeling motor. Something like the narrow Bion-x hub motors would do nicely.

And I did build my own system very similar to that using an extra crank on the left side that was driven by a motor and it's own chain. The problem is the need for a freewheeling crank so a thumb throttle can work as well and a way for the strain guage to detect the torque of the cyclist to provide the appropriate assist.

One system I came up with that would probably work on a tadpole trike is an "in between" system. At the front of the trike you have the usual crank. At the back you have the usual gears and derailleur. But in the middle, probably right behind the seat, is a Bion-x hub motor. The front crank drives the Bion-x like it normally would but a gear would be bolted to the Bion-x's case and would chain drive the rear gears and derailleur.

It would work well on a tadpole trike or even a recumbent bike because of the big distance between the crank and rear gears. But on a regular bike it would be pretty difficult to pull this off.

Hmm... let's do a little rough math here.

Bicycling magazine once published some figures for calorie burn rate. Let's assume rider weight of 170 lbs. and an average speed of 15MPH. The figure I have is 0.0561 Cal/lb-min. for flat terrain. So given that...

0.0561 Cal/lb-min x 170 lbs x 525,600 min/year * 5 years = 2,5063,236 Cals

Converted to joules that's 104,934,756,484.8 joules. Just to give you an idea of how much energy that is, a gallon of gasoline has about 1.3x10^8 joules worth of energy. Thus we're talking about 800 gals worth of gas here. In order to achieve this type of energy density, in a compact enough form to be placed on a bicycle, you need to start looking at miniature nuclear batteries. Have you been talking to Fleischmann and Ponds?

Right... and my moped has an 800 gallon tank as well. :rolleyes:

In reality, you'd need to refuel the moped about 1600 times over 5 years to burn all that energy. Modern batteries can go about 500 charging cycles so they're still not there yet but when you compare the environmental and economical costs of 800 gallons of gas vs. the same amount of electricity, I'll take a battery.

Can a electric bicycle batteries last for over 5 years of continuous electric bicycle riding (like traveling 30,000 or more miles) without charging the battery one time? After that then charging time with this electric bicycle only takes 4-6 hours or less on a standard 110v outlet and after that charging the batteries the bicycle it will have another 5 years of continuous riding before charging the bicycle again?


As many have said, without a brakthrough of a magnatide that is not even, currently, under discuccion or forseen this is not a likely, near, future.

That being said, to apply an overused phrase, we must not let the best become the enemy of the good. I would like to see range closer to one-hundred miles and charge time closer to one hour per hundred miles. Idealy would be a charge time of closer to ten minutes per hundred miles. Lets face it, other than a few, most people woulf never consider spending over a hundred miles (4 - 5 hours) on an ebike.

This would begin to push the ebike applications out of the current role of pedal assist and into the role of lite motorcycles, which they currently are not. I see this as both good and bad. It would also begin to make ebikes practical for touring and to take when going camping (due to, very mild, cerebral palsey I do not hike well).

I feel that for ebikes to remain practical, they have to be able to be lifted, by their rider, onto the bicycle rack on municiple busses. However, this reveals my view of the best use of ebikes in general. I would liek to see them used for many applications; however, at the present, I see then as an exelent "last mile' (really, last 5 - 10 miles) solution for public transport. Even in a country like America, which is so spread out, if public transport only tried to get within five miles of all residences and destinations, then it would have a chanch of working.

Starting to ramble, so, ther is not way that a five year charge would work and I know of no other current methods of land transportation that pack a five year charge. It is an unrealistic goal. Give me a 100 mile charge.

Batteries are getting lighter and more efficient. I think soon there will be a 10lb battery that lasts a couple years. The Schwinn Campus is very lightweight, but I can't find info about how much the battery weighs. From their website:

"Long range – Hi-tech patent-pending Protanium® lithium polymer battery is the lightest and most durable on the market. One charge will last approximately 60 miles(Depending on user weight, climate and terrain)."

That's pretty impressive. And it's tiny. http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=889

I guess I'm just an optimist.

I'd like to see a bike with bottom bracket based motor. Something like optibike, but nothing as fancy and more regular looking. With a BB motor, the motor is smaller and lighter (but a little noisier because of the internal gearing), center of gravity is low, you can use normal wheels for both front and back, and the motor will always be operating at peak efficiency because you can use your bike's regular gears.

And there might be enough room near the bottom bracket to stuff a battery there too. The whole thing could possibly weigh less than 40 lbs.

Why go towards the direction of storing enough energy to last 5 years, when the easier approach is to continuously recharge. Think solar power, with the battery only acting as temporary storage to smooth out the power output as you cycle through sun and shade.

I'd like to see a bike with bottom bracket based motor. Something like optibike, but nothing as fancy and more regular looking. With a BB motor, the motor is smaller and lighter (but a little noisier because of the internal gearing), center of gravity is low, you can use normal wheels for both front and back, and the motor will always be operating at peak efficiency because you can use your bike's regular gears.

And there might be enough room near the bottom bracket to stuff a battery there too. The whole thing could possibly weigh less than 40 lbs.

Something like this?

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/1999/05/19/images/keirin-pas2.jpg

I totally agree. Yamaha pulled it off on their Racer-01. I would like to see that further developped into a full production model we can buy. I'd like to get a close-up view of how that bottom braket V-twin electric motor setup was done. They must be using some type of freewheel crank or something. You can tell from that picture that the crank seems to be some special custom made deal.

Why go towards the direction of storing enough energy to last 5 years, when the easier approach is to continuously recharge. Think solar power, with the battery only acting as temporary storage to smooth out the power output as you cycle through sun and shade.

When I was in college, 25 years ago, I came up with an electrical car system that combined an onboard battery and a network of under the surface induction coils.

When using your car on major roads you would simply get the juice from the grid by driving over induction wires just under the road surface. No rails or anything. Just contactless induction coils.

Then when you go on sidestreets which don't have the induction wires yet, the car would simply switch over to the onboard battery.

The best part? Unlimited range when driving on a major roadway. You'd never need to "fill up" or even recharge the battery yourself. As your sitting idle on a streetcorner the juice from the induction wires underneath would recharge your battery.

And when you get home you could also install an induction coil under your driveway or garage to recharge your car if you happened to be mostly riding on side streets.

Two problems I couldn't figure out:

1 - How to bill people for their electrical usage
2 - How to get everyone onboard. There would be so much opposition from so many sides simply because they want to maintain their livelyhood. Car mechanics, auto producers, gas companies, service stations and so on.

But one day we WILL run out of petrol. That's inevitable. My solution I dreamed up back in the '80s would work and would make perfect sense.

PS: This could also be applied to electric bikes as well. They could use the juice from the same induction coils under the road as cars do.

Is this technology here yet or in the next 5-20 years? Can a electric bicycle batteries last for over 5 years of continuous electric bicycle riding (like traveling 30,000 or more miles) without charging the battery one time? After that then charging time with this electric bicycle only takes 4-6 hours or less on a standard 110v outlet and after that charging the batteries the bicycle it will have another 5 years of continuous riding before charging the bicycle again? :D

Thanks,

bluetriforce
Did you mean without changing the battery one time?
Possibly, there is a company down in Texas that has said they will ship this year, an ultracapacitor that will have 2.8-3 x the power density of NiMH at HALF the cost of lead acid and millions of charge cycles. The first units are going to ZENN cars in Toronto who say they will be shipping the cars next year. Claims include working down to-20C, scalable from pacemakers to trucks and protection against catastrophic shorting.
I have to say I have some skepticism, but if they do it, it changes everything.
Look for eestor on google.

I don't think so myself. Part of it has to do with the inefficiencies of the elelctric motors.

See the motor is on it's own fixed gearset usually, or it's a rim drive system (obscenely ineefficient). what you need is a freewheel crankset, where the cinarings will turn, but not your pedals, to get the most out of an electric bike...for this one reason: it will sue your bikes exisiting 21+ gears. This allows you to use a lower gear on climbs and a higher gear on declines, maximizing power efficiency.

The problem with this is insanely increased complexity of teh bike. Plus where is the electricity coming from? Fossil fuels? If so, thats jsut conterproductive.
Close to what you want is the stokemonkey, you still have to pedal, the cranks go round when the motor runs, but it is pretty efficient. They claim with 20-30kg of cargo, an average guy can stay with a fast road bike for up to 50 miles. You do have to fit an Xtracycle first though.

When I was in college, 25 years ago, I came up with an electrical car system that combined an onboard battery and a network of under the surface induction coils.

When using your car on major roads you would simply get the juice from the grid by driving over induction wires just under the road surface. No rails or anything. Just contactless induction coils.

Then when you go on sidestreets which don't have the induction wires yet, the car would simply switch over to the onboard battery.

The best part? Unlimited range when driving on a major roadway. You'd never need to "fill up" or even recharge the battery yourself. As your sitting idle on a streetcorner the juice from the induction wires underneath would recharge your battery.

And when you get home you could also install an induction coil under your driveway or garage to recharge your car if you happened to be mostly riding on side streets.

Two problems I couldn't figure out:

1 - How to bill people for their electrical usage
2 - How to get everyone onboard. There would be so much opposition from so many sides simply because they want to maintain their livelyhood. Car mechanics, auto producers, gas companies, service stations and so on.

But one day we WILL run out of petrol. That's inevitable. My solution I dreamed up back in the '80s would work and would make perfect sense.

PS: This could also be applied to electric bikes as well. They could use the juice from the same induction coils under the road as cars do.


RFIDs should work for this.

RFIDs should work for this.

I meant the whole billing/enforcement process and so on. Not just the technology for finding out who's using the juice. You have to consider who owns the roads. You go from one city to another and that's different bills. And then there's Provincial and municipal roads and so on. What about such a system up en Europe where you can easily cross into several countries all in a week's worth of biking?

Complexities like that are what I was trying to figure out. If this thing is going to work, the whole process has to be simplified to reduce costs and make sure it's affordable for everyone. I hate overhead costs. Keep things simple = reduce costs.

If you pedal normally and use the assist sparingly (only help uphill, etc.) you can expect to use ~10wh/km. 30K miles is 48K Km, so you'd need ~480Kw. With an overall charging eff of ~75%, to get that kinda power in an hour at 115v would take ~5.217KA. That's ~116 times the rating of the baddest household 115v plugs I know of, at 45A. Not gonna happen.

Is this technology here yet or in the next 5-20 years? Can a electric bicycle batteries last for over 5 years of continuous electric bicycle riding (like traveling 30,000 or more miles) without charging the battery one time? After that then charging time with this electric bicycle only takes 4-6 hours or less on a standard 110v outlet and after that charging the batteries the bicycle it will have another 5 years of continuous riding before charging the bicycle again? :D

Thanks,

bluetriforce

#1 -Rechargable batteries must be charged BEFORE the first use. Every rechargable (or cordless) device that has ever been produced, has an instruction book that says "Charge for 16 to 36 hours before initial use" . This includes cell phones, cordless drills, cordless vacuum cleaners, cordless phones and laptop computers.

2# -The amount of power required to go thirty thousand miles can NOT be delivered though a standard 110 volt outlet in 4 to 6 hours, it would blow the fuse, or trip the circuit breaker INSTANTLY.

Let's do the math:
30000 miles at 30 miles per hour = 1000 hours

750 watt motor times 1000 hours equals = 750 kilowatt/hours

750 kWh would break down to 750 kilowatts times 1 hour

(that's three quarters of a megawatt, no such breaker, no such fuse, in a home...You have to go to a powerplant to charge it)

okay , you said six hours, 750 divided by six equals 125 kilowatts.

125,000 watts divided by 110 volts,

=1136.3636 Amps

A standard 110 volt outlet only has a 25 amp fuse or circuit breaker.

the average house only has a 150 Amp Service Main breaker.

The charger required to charge this *hypothetical* battery would not only blow your fuse, but the main fuse, and probably knock out all the power in your neighborhood.

And that's calculating 100% efficiency. Considering heat, you would need fifteen hundred amps,

That's as much current as ten houses. Most houses only have a 150 amp MAIN fuse,

1500 amps= ten houses.



------------------------------------------------------
You might as well put an 800 gallon fuel tank on a moped.

Something like this?

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/1999/05/19/images/keirin-pas2.jpg

I totally agree. Yamaha pulled it off on their Racer-01. I would like to see that further developped into a full production model we can buy. I'd like to get a close-up view of how that bottom braket V-twin electric motor setup was done. They must be using some type of freewheel crank or something. You can tell from that picture that the crank seems to be some special custom made deal.

I was thinking that the motor can be completely housed within the bottom bracket so that you can't really tell there's a motor there. Of course, the frame would have to be designed to have a larger BB to hold such motors. I don't see any batteries in the picture above so either they're not there or the can shaped like stuff sticking out of the motor is the battery.

You can currently install a BB motor using the cyclone-usa kits. These kits attach under and just behind the BB.

If these BB based motors can be integrated with the frame, that would be something I'd definitely buy.

Just get John Galt to build you a motor which converts static electricity from the air into kinetic energy. You would NEVER have to recharge!

If it's too good to be true....
There's a lot of doubt out there about EEStor.
But...quick charge batteries ARE a reality.
Do some research on Altair Nanotechnologies.
Supposedly Altair's batteries recharge in less than 10 minutes. And, that's for a car.
Bicycle batteries would, of course, be much smaller and could possibly recharge in seconds.
Think about it. You run out of juice and stop at a cafe and recharge before your latte is ready!

1 - How to bill people for their electrical usage
2 - How to get everyone onboard. There would be so much opposition from so many sides simply because they want to maintain their livelyhood. Car mechanics, auto producers, gas companies, service stations and so on.

As for how to get everyone on board... it would not be easy. IMO the only way to do it would be gradually building political support... rises in gas taxes, etc. Get trackless trolleys (elec-buses) using a system first, and then open it to private vehicles later.

Overhead wires such as those used by some seattle buses would probably be a lot cheaper to install though. That might make them a lot more likely to get implemented.

If you understand how electric meter enforcement on houses work, it appears that they might be practical on cars and e-bikes too. Essentially, using electricity without a meter (and without getting electrocuted) requires a lot of work... and doing so without everybody nearby being able to see is much, much more difficult... and if you're caught you've committed a serious crime. All electrified roads would be in plain public view and all vehicles using the power would have a registered meter; meters would be presented for mandatory monthly inspection at the electricity-provider's office (or maybe at your home's regularly scheduled meter-reading). Or something like that. I guess stolen vehicles would operate for free until caught (!) and people might be tempted to claim that their vehicle was stolen. I think installing photographic license plate readers* to help catch anyone trying to use electricity without a paying electric account would solve that problem, though.

Besides taking away the need to purchase and carry batteries, systems like this (as used today on public transit or as modified for private vehicles) mean that you don't lose energy charging your battery and then again discharging the battery, which collectively avoids a huge amount of energy loss.

*like the ones used to give speeding tickets in some locations

Is this technology here yet or in the next 5-20 years? ...
No.

I'm rather disappointed that this forum was titled "Electric Bicycles" and not "Motorized Bicycles". For a lot of the uses that people expect, a gasoline-engined bicycle can meet them WAY better than any electric system out there can, and the gas engine setup is still way more fuel-efficient than any other vehicle on the road.
~

No.

I'm rather disappointed that this forum was titled "Electric Bicycles" and not "Motorized Bicycles". For a lot of the uses that people expect, a gasoline-engined bicycle can meet them WAY better than any electric system out there can, and the gas engine setup is still way more fuel-efficient than any other vehicle on the road.
~

A lot of people, myself included, would like to see a national move from pertrol in any place that it is not essential; and, finding ways to eliminate it where it is. Second, once you put a petrol motor on it you start running into a myriad of legal issues.

Electricly assisted bikes are not mopeds. However, petrol powered bicycles generally are and as such are, in many ststes, subject to most of the licensing and insurance restrictions as motorcycles, additionally, they are noisy.

Befort the states, such as California, effectively eliminated mopeds in the 1980s' they were evolving into light motorcycles. In no way, other than having a couple of pedals on the side to rest the riders feet on, did they resemble bicycles more than motorcycles. I had a moped back then and I would like to see then permitted to return in the same way we used them in the 80s'. I used mine as, as did most young people who had them, as a transation vehicle from bicycle riding habits to motorcycle riding habits.

Having used both, theses are two very differnt vehicles.

A lot of people, myself included, would like to see a national move from pertrol in any place that it is not essential; and, finding ways to eliminate it where it is. ....
Yes but at what cost?

A couple things you should try to come to terms with are that-
.....electric vehicles are not always more-economical to operate than comparable gasoline-powered vehicles, and that-
.....it's very debateable if electric vehicles are any kinder to the environment overall.
~

How so?
When most people think of "vehicle pollution" they think of smog, because that's the one type of pollution that they can see with their own eyes--but that ain't hardly the only type there is.

The main cost and source of pollution of electric vehicles is NOT charging the batteries daily--it is the cost and pollution of producing the batteries, and of disposing of them (or recycling them) when they expire.
~

.....it's very debateable if electric vehicles are any kinder to the environment overall.
~

There's no debate. Electrics are kinder to the environment than gasoline if you consider the whole system from extraction to production to distribution to consumption.

Once you tally up all the pollution on each level for each, Electricity beats gasoline hands down in regards to environmental friendliness.

You also have to consider that most people who doubt electrical production's low pollution production will almost always state Coal fired plants as their source for data. Electricity, unlike gasoline, has dozens of different ways of being produced. And many high pollution electrical plants are being shut down and replaced by better systems.

The biggest thing I love about electrical power is: you have options! You have so many ways of producing electricity, some which can be done at home, that it ensures no corporate monopoly is likely to control the market in the near future. And if one method is deemed too risky or too polluting, it can easily be replaced by another method; unlike gasoline.

There's no debate. Electrics are kinder to the environment than gasoline if you consider the whole system from extraction to production to distribution to consumption.

Once you tally up all the pollution on each level for each, Electricity beats gasoline hands down in regards to environmental friendliness....
So you think that manufacturing and disposing of batteries makes no pollution whatsoever?
Or are you just saying that "electric vehicles don't make smog"?

-----

Functionally, a gas-engined bicycle is the same as an electric-engined bicycle.

Electric cars have a number of practical limitations, and that's why they don't sell very well (even though you can buy them TODAY)--and in comparisons with petroleum-powered vehicles, electric bicycles suffer the exact same limitations that electric cars do. A fully-charged five-pound battery won't get you anywhere near as far as five pounds of gasoline will--and for a vehicle, that's what matters.
~

according to a show I recently saw on tv, gasoline powered bicycles often produce more harmful emissions than cars - at least in china, where they are popular. acording to this show there are several hundred thousand in one of the larger cities alone (forget which).

How so?

CE

How is the electricity generated in the first place? In most parts of the country it is from coal or oil burning plants. Hydroelectric and nuclear come next. The environmental devastation caused by those is obvious.

Wind and solar are negligable at present, but they are not without environmental impact. Wind power kills birds. Solar cells are produced by industrial processes that have some fairly nasty by-products.

No.

I'm rather disappointed that this forum was titled "Electric Bicycles" and not "Motorized Bicycles". For a lot of the uses that people expect, a gasoline-engined bicycle can meet them WAY better than any electric system out there can, and the gas engine setup is still way more fuel-efficient than any other vehicle on the road.
~

If that's what you want, get a motorcycle, moped, or motorscooter. There are some very good models out there. Those technologies have been fairly well developed over the years.

according to a show I recently saw on tv, gasoline powered bicycles often produce more harmful emissions than cars - at least in china, where they are popular. acording to this show there are several hundred thousand in one of the larger cities alone (forget which).

Strange, in all of China I have seen ONE petrol powered bicycle. I even took a picture of it. It looked like an early early Davidson (the ones from the 1800's). I havn't even seen many petrol powered mopeds; I have, possibly, seen four or five. I am interested in what city they did this study.

Most of what is seen here is (of course, bicycles but there are a lot of laws trying to discourage thier use). The next most popular is the electric moped (I do not consider these to be electric bicycles due to weight and thet they are not intended to be pedaled; most people remove the pedals). Then electric scooters. These look like motorscooters but have electric drive, then petrol powered scooters; and finally, motorcycles followed by private cars.

A lot of the petrol scooters are two stroke, so they do polute a lot. However, even the electric mopeds are exempt from the anti bicycle laws; thus making them very popular.

according to a show I recently saw on tv, gasoline powered bicycles often produce more harmful emissions than cars - at least in china, where they are popular. acording to this show there are several hundred thousand in one of the larger cities alone (forget which).
The usual example cited for that is total-loss 2-cycle engines--these being the "old-fashioned" type that burn their oil with their fuel, and it is true. Those are already being legislated out of existence in the US: starting in 2006, importation of total-loss 2-cycle engines was banned for some purposes, bicycle engine kits was among them. C.A.R.B. is already requiring catalytic mufflers on small engines, and most other states will likely soon follow.

The Chinese bicycle engine kits available in the US were all 2-cycles for a long time, but they're switching to 4-cycles now. And if you picked a higher-priced domestic-made kit, they usually have a number of engine choices--some of which are 4-cycles. In my opinioin 4-cycles are more convenient, just because you don't need to mix oil when refueling--but the lower pollution isn't bad either.

Also quite honestly--comparing a utility engine with NO emissions controls against a modern car isn't exactly fair. In the last 40 years, car emissions have been reduced by something like 98%. People used to commit suicide by breathing car engine exhaust--but on a properly-functioning car now, you basically can't do it. There are reports of people leaving the engine running in a closed garage for several HOURS and still not dying from the exhaust fumes.
-------

If that's what you want, get a motorcycle, moped, or motorscooter. There are some very good models out there. Those technologies have been fairly well developed over the years.
Not the same thing (and people who think ANY motor on a bike is dumb will tell you the same thing about an e-bike):
--A motorized bicycle can cost way less to operate than those other choices. In some US states, a motorized bicycle (either gas or electric) requires only a valid license, and no insurance or registration. That makes a BIG difference if you're riding to actually save money--$5/month for registration costs and $10/month for insurance means that's $15 of gas you'd have to save over using a car, before you'd actually save any money.
--Motorized bicycles can easily get 200+ MPG, that is considerably higher than mopeds (150 MPG), and way higher than scooters (75 mpg) and motorcycles (60 mpg).
--Motorized bicycles are still useful as bicycles when the engines aren't used or won't run; they are true "hybrid" vehicles often with two totally-mechanically-separate means of propulsion. If the engine on your motorcycle or scooter stalls, you're walking home. The pedal systems of mopeds (that have pedals anymore) aren't really intended for doing anything more than clutch-starts; they're geared WAY too low for riding any actual distances.
--A bicycle motor only adds about 10-12 lbs onto the weight of a normal bicycle, and so motorized bicycles can be transported easily inside of, or on, most cars. You can't do that with a motorcycle or scooter, and most mopeds weigh 100-120+ lbs.

....And in case you didn't notice: three of the four points I just made apply to e-bikes too. Almost all of the arguments against gas-engined bicycles can be applied against e-bikes. Politically, there's no reason to split these two types, you're just casting off like-minded supporters for no reason.
~

So you think that manufacturing and disposing of batteries makes no pollution whatsoever?


There's no debate that the manufacturing and disposal of batteries pollutes less than gasoline production and consumption.

Besides, the whole battery argument is ridiculous. Cars have batteries too. They have to disposed of as well.

As well as engine coolant, engine oil, transmission oil and so on.

How is the electricity generated in the first place? In most parts of the country it is from coal or oil burning plants. Hydroelectric and nuclear come next. The environmental devastation caused by those is obvious.

Wind and solar are negligable at present, but they are not without environmental impact. Wind power kills birds. Solar cells are produced by industrial processes that have some fairly nasty by-products.

And how is oil pumped out of the ground, transported and refined? When you consider the whole cycle, electricity still wins.

And as I said before: when electricity you have more options. You can phase out coal plants fairly easily and replace them with other better methods. With oil, you have little options. Either you pump it out of the ground or you grow the alternatives.

There's no debate that the manufacturing and disposal of batteries pollutes less than gasoline production and consumption.
-No, not really.
Gasoline production doesn't produce much pollution, aside from the occasional oil spill. All of the products that are derived from petroleum generally get used--nothing gets thrown away. And most of the pollution from burning petroleum fuels occurs at the end-use point, as smog.

Batteries don't produce much pollution in use--their pollution occurs when they are manufactured, and then at the end of life when they are disposed of or recycled. I'm not sure if any batteries are economical to recycle yet; lead-acids might be. The others I dunno, a large percentage of them might be ending up in a regular trash dump somewhere {-this is the dirty secret of many municipal recycling programs already in place.....**.


....Besides, the whole battery argument is ridiculous. Cars have batteries too. They have to disposed of as well.
-Yes, but a petroleum-engined car has one ~50-lb battery. An electric car would probably have at least 3000-4000 lbs of batteries, that's 60 to 80 times as much.


...As well as engine coolant, engine oil, transmission oil and so on.
-The engine coolant is supposed to be moving to a biodegradable type, at least in the US.
As for the old oil and other fluids, they can be burned as fuels in various other uses.
~

...And as I said before: when electricity you have more options. You can phase out coal plants fairly easily and replace them with other better methods. With oil, you have little options. Either you pump it out of the ground or you grow the alternatives.
So then, how mych energy use do you think is coal and oil?.....

US energy production, from this page:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/ipp/ipp_sum.html

...Based on primary energy source, coal-fired capacity represented 43 percent (260,990 megawatts) of the Nation's existing capacity (Figure 1). Gas-fired capacity accounted for 19 percent (117,845 megawatts); nuclear, 14 percent (86,163 megawatts); renewable energy sources, 12 percent (74,575 megawatts); petroleum, 7 percent (41,017 megawatts); and pumped storage hydroelectric, 3 percent (18,020 megawatts)...
Note that 69% is petroleum or coal sources....

How about Canada?....
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Canada/Background.html

...In 2004, the largest source of energy consumption in Canada was oil (33 percent), closely followed by natural gas (25 percent) and hydroelectricity (25 percent). Both coal (9 percent) and nuclear (7 percent) constitute a small share of the country’s overall energy mix. Over 1984-2004, the share of oil in total energy consumption has remained mostly constant, whereas natural gas has increased from 21 percent to 25 percent: most of the increase in natural gas consumption has come at the expense of coal, whose share of total energy consumption fell from 12 percent to 9 percent over that time period...
Up north, 67% of energy use is either petroleum or coal sources....
~

-No, not really.
Gasoline production doesn't produce much pollution, aside from the occasional oil spill. All of the products that are derived from petroleum generally get used--nothing gets thrown away. And most of the pollution from burning petroleum fuels occurs at the end-use point, as smog.
~

Please tell me what brand of crack you're smoking, I want to join in on the fun too. :rolleyes:

Pumping oil uses oil.
Refining gasoline uses electricity.
Transporting gasoline uses oil. Tanker ships and tanker trucks aren't electric you know.
Pumping gasoline into your car uses electricity.

Making and getting gasoline to the consumer pollutes a hell of a lot more than electricity.

In 2004, the largest source of energy consumption in Canada was oil (33 percent), closely followed by natural gas (25 percent) and hydroelectricity (25 percent). Both coal (9 percent) and nuclear (7 percent) constitute a small share of the country’s overall energy mix.
~

So what you're saying is that oil only accounts for 1/3 or the energy used to produce electricity.

You know... you're kind backing my whole "with electricity you have options" argument. Thank you! ;)

Couple things:


When a law talks about "motorized bicycle", they're almost universally talking about a moped.

A bike with a gasoline assist is not recognized as an electric assist bike, and is not legal as such. Pretty much the only place you can get away with riding one of these is in some of the places where mopeds or less do not require registration.

Electric bikes are mostly limited to ~25-32km/h depending where you live, while mopeds go ~45-50km/h. For a given bike, going 45-50km/h means ~3X the power requirement then to hold 32km/h. At 32km/h, the rider's input makes a very significant difference on the power consumption, to the point where you can outrun the motor between lights. At 45-50, the rider becomes barely more then symbolic (unless you're called Lance Armstrong, back when you were running the TDF anyways).

Not everyone who rides a bike cares about the environment. I for one really don't care, the reason I ride bikes is because I prefer to ride bikes rather then anything else, so be it. If it ain't good enough for you, bite me. Last I checked, lead acid batteries were the most recycled product in existence (over 98% of them). Besides, I've seen it argued, with prett convincing arguments, that riding an electric bike is less harmful for the environment then riding a conventional bike, once you take into account a human's horrendous 25% eff. and compounded with the massive amount of petrol required to generate and transport food and petrol... It would seem that even riding in a car may be preferable then riding a bike... The immediately obvious pollution ain't all there is to it... But for myself, currently riding any bike I can get my hands on, and excluding what it costs to make a bike and tires and food and stuff, I know I must put at least a quart of oil per year straight into nature just oiling chains and stuff.

As far as electric assist bikes being functionally equivalent to gas versions, I have to disagree! Gas versions are really crude, while electrics are smooth and nearly seamless. Mostly, electrics are no louder then a conventional bike. By far and large the most common type, at least in my area, is gearless brushless hub motors. They have a very soft buzz when you run them off the ground at low speed, at high speeds the wind noise covers it, and when running such a bike on slicks, the tire noise is louder. Geared or chain driven ebikes have a distinctive whine to them, it's comparable or a bit louder then a freewheel, but even then in a city this noise is generally swamped out by the environment. By comparison, gasoline assists are obnoxiously loud... And smelly! You don't want to be following one... Fortunately, in my area the police have been taking these off the roads. And as for no reason to separate them from ebikes, hell can you imagine these things buzzing around your hood at 3 am? I shure as hell don't want that. I'd trade 100 ebikes for 1 gas bike...

....When a law talks about "motorized bicycle", they're almost universally talking about a moped....
I don't know where you live--but in the US, there is no standard definition or terminology for motorized bicycles on the state level. In the state where I live, a bicycle with a any kind of engine cannot be registered as a motor vehicle at all. There are a few restrictions on using motorized bicycles (16 yrs or older, valid license of any type, 2HP or less, ect) but nothing that I can't live with.


...Last I checked, lead acid batteries were the most recycled product in existence (over 98% of them). ...Yes but (in the US) I don't know if this this is only because most states have mandated it. If it had been all that profitable in the first place, mandating it would never have been necessary. Are lead batteries recycled in third-world countries that don't have laws requiring it? ....There has been a free market in recycling aluminum for many years now in the US--and the reason is that it's profitable to do so. Aluminum's unique properties are that it's expensive to make initially but fairly inexpensive to recycle--and it's lightweight, so it's relatively cheap to transport (as opposed to lead).


By comparison, gasoline assists are obnoxiously loud... And smelly! You don't want to be following one... ... can you imagine these things buzzing around your hood at 3 am? I shure as hell don't want that. I'd trade 100 ebikes for 1 gas bike...
As for the noise--that's just a matter of the MUFFLER fitted. Honda Gold Wing motorcycles and Silver Wing scooters are very quiet, and they aren't electric, they just have good mufflers. Most gas-powered bike kits now use small utility engines that favored compactness over low noise output. It's simply not a major problem.

As for the smell, dunno what you're speaking of there.
The 4-cycles don't put put any visible smoke at all, and I don't notice any particular smell... but I could see how you wouldn't want to be in bed at 3:00 AM and have to smell motorized bicycles driving by outside..... :rolleyes:
~

Did you mean without changing the battery one time?
Possibly, there is a company down in Texas that has said they will ship this year, an ultracapacitor that will have 2.8-3 x the power density of NiMH at HALF the cost of lead acid and millions of charge cycles. The first units are going to ZENN cars in Toronto who say they will be shipping the cars next year. Claims include working down to-20C, scalable from pacemakers to trucks and protection against catastrophic shorting.
I have to say I have some skepticism, but if they do it, it changes everything.
Look for eestor on google.


there is some interesting discussion, and a lot of skepticism, in the comments section of this page:
http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/1/19/1715549.html

another ultracapacitor possibility:
http://lees.mit.edu/lees/posters/RU13_signorelli.pdf
http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/16-04-07

I wonder what they think of eestor's claims

As for the noise--that's just a matter of the MUFFLER fitted. Honda Gold Wing motorcycles and Silver Wing scooters are very quiet, and they aren't electric, they just have good mufflers. Most gas-powered bike kits now use small utility engines that favored compactness over low noise output. It's simply not a major problem.


They're not as quiet as electric bikes are. Honda Gold wings may be "quieter" than other bikes but they sure ain't quiet. I can defintely hear them taking off from a street corner on a green light.

You likely won't hear my eBike under full assist unless you sitting on the seat. And all I hear is a little whine from the motor that quickly gets burried by the road noise of my tires and the wind running across my ears.



As for the smell, dunno what you're speaking of there.
The 4-cycles don't put put any visible smoke at all, and I don't notice any particular smell... but I could see how you wouldn't want to be in bed at 3:00 AM and have to smell motorized bicycles driving by outside..... :rolleyes:
~

Maybe you've been sniffing exhaust fumes too long. I can smell exhaust fumes coming from cars, I have no reason to believe I can't smell the exhaust coming from a small 4 stroke engine as well.

They don't smell as bad as 2 strokes for sure, but they still smell.