Folding Bikes - the super brompton

Dear All,

i though that this information might be worth sharing regarding len rubins (fantastic IMO) folding bike development. i would be intrested to here your thoughts.

below is an email from len busines partner sent to me.

also attached is the history of its development.

Thank you for your interest in the Ultimate Folding Bicycle. We are gearing up to launch our new website at http://www.ufbusa.com (also http://www.ultimatefoldingbicycle.com and http://www.ultimatefoldingbike.com). In the coming weeks the new site will have products to upgrade and lighten your Brompton as well as some of our other top picks for living a car-free/"car-light" lifestyle. When the UFB (our latest all titanium model) finally gets in to production (possibly within the next 3 to 6 months) it will also be available there for purchase. In the meantime the site will offer you the option to reserve a place on our waiting list and/or put a deposit down on your future UFB.... all this is coming very, very soon! We expect the UFB will be available at a price in the $10,000-$12,000 range, depending on final components/ manufacturing costs - and we'll be producing a limited run of 100 completely hand-built bicycles to start.

In the meantime we wanted you to know that we are selling one bike that includes many of the original early components of Len's first SuperBrompton prototype. (It is a 7-day auction that will start tomorrow (Saturday, May 16th) and the starting bid is just $1500!) When Len originally sold these (steel) bikes they were in the $6,000 range for a complete bike (he also offered limited upgrade packages to existing Bromptons, starting at $3500).

A full description of this bike and the project's colorful evolution (as well as some information about the yet-to-launch UFB) can be found in the attached PDF.

If you are interested in buying this last available SuperBrompton for sale - this piece of history can be found in my eBay store at: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/tamararubin

This is a link to the auction & history text, and if you know anyone else who might be interested in the history (or the auction) pass it along...

Thanks for your inquiries, your support and your interest in the UFB.

it is much to far out of my price range but i bike is for life not just xmas

top picks for living a car-free/"car-light" lifestyle. ... the UFB will be available at a price in the $10,000-$12,000 range ...

If I was to sell my car I would get not even get 1/10th of that ticket price.
With the 6 speed S6E-X titanium Brompton at around £1100 / $1650 and 21.8lbs vs 20lbs that's a cost of something in the order of £2600 / $4000 per pound saved :eek:

>EDIT: okay I see the target of the production bikes is 16.5lbs - sounds like just the job to win the BWC on.

Wait. A Brompton wannabe that costs more than a Brompton? :eek:

Wait. A Brompton wannabe that costs more than a Brompton? :eek:

I'd say less 'Brompton wannabe', more 'what Brompton should be'. Have a look at the current version of the site and you'll see what I mean....http://www.ultimatefoldingbike.com . Yes, it's mega-expensive, but it does pretty much live up to the name, and after everything the Rubin family have been through, I can only wish them success, they deserve it.

Yes, I checked out the very scarce website. If I decide to get a Brompton, I'll go for the real thing. Thanks.

... and after everything the Rubin family have been through...

What do you mean by that?

Kam

What do you mean by that?

Kam

Read the PDF and you'll see for yourself...it's no wonder they've taken so long to get this far.

I too checked the website and I decided that I like the original better.

We expect the UFB will be available at a price in the $10,000-$12,000 range, depending on final components/ manufacturing costs - and we'll be producing a limited run of 100 completely hand-built bicycles to start.


Please, help me understand here something. Twelve thousand USD for a Brompton want to be? And people believe this non-sense? Wait a minute, wait a minute, this is a oax, right? These are for sure a bunch of guys joking with us, right ?

While I don't know all the detailed history of this UFB, it is not a brommie wannabe... it is meant to be quite a big improvement. Check out the reduced weight, the widened rear dropouts to accept a road cassette, a derailer hanger, cable guides & stops, a front derailer, v-brakes etc etc. Not a brommie wannabe, but what the brommie should have been all along.

So what we are seeing here, is a very very good folding bike in-the-making, with the brommie as the starting point, instead of the destination.

While I don't know all the detailed history of this UFB, it is not a brommie wannabe... it is meant to be quite a big improvement. Check out the reduced weight, the widened rear dropouts to accept a road cassette, a derailer hanger, cable guides & stops, a front derailer, v-brakes etc etc. Not a brommie wannabe, but what the brommie should have been all along.

So what we are seeing here, is a very very good folding bike in-the-making, with the brommie as the starting point, instead of the destination.

+1. definitely the brompton is the starting point and this UFB is the end result of that. i read the email len wrote and this guy is quite amazing. in spite of what they had gone thru he still has his folding bike passion. he's a true folder guy. if i have the money i would definitely buy his bike instead of forking out and sending my money to england. that cost is really right on and the bike itself justify it's cost. if you're in awe with the brompton, you'll be speechless when you see his bike (i didn't - i just read the specs).

thanks,
vic

Thanks jur and vmanqui. I know in this day and age people are sceptical, but the Rubins and their bikes are a far cry from umpteen knock-offs and frauds. To compare a UFB with those is ridiculous. I can appreciate many aspects of the Brompton design, but the UFB is the bike they should be building in many respects. They do have a good relationship with Brompton going back many years- talked about the UFB with Brompton MD Will Butler-Adams at the Smithfield Nocturne last year, he had nothing but praise and respect for it and Len.
And yes, it's a tiny operation- so was Andrew Ritchie's when he started....

I saw Len's Ti Rohloff UFB in England a few years ago. A thing of beauty and an object of desire but out of my price range for a while yet.

i posted this a three days later 350 view, wow

" +1. definitely the brompton is the starting point and this UFB is the end result of that."

+1

only problem is if the bikes perfect, no more modification. dam!! :)

Cost wise folding bikes is a niche market and thus small market thus supply and demand dictates high costs.

but friends, am i the only one who thinks I could make one just as good as that if not better?

people are willing to spend such an amount on a bike are truly looking for perfection but remember there is no such thing, and only something which suits YOU

only problem is if the bikes perfect, no more modification. dam!! :)



i agree with you thatsut 100%. this will be a bigger problem for me as i love tinkering and upgrading stuff. if this is really perfect then it will be quite hard for us.....what will we do then if we can't upgrade or fix things (hmmmm quite a dilemna for us - he, he, he)...

thanks,
vic

I'm sure the UFB is a fabulous bike and I'm in awe of the effort that must have gone into creating it, but i justI doubt there is any real market for a $14k bike that looks to the casual eye the same as the $1k bike it is derrived from . If you have that kind of money to spend you want people to know you have that kind of money to spend, which may sound crass but it is experience that holds true in the automotive world. Now if I had $14K to spend on a bike it would have to go on a top end Moulton, instantly recognisable, unique looks and world class performance.

Just remember, the UFB is not the modded Brompton of the ebay sale. The UFB also has a on-the-fly adjustable stem (and ti frame?). So it's only superficially similar.

Not that I have the dough to drop on such a bike.

Yep, the UFB uses the Brompton fold, but other than that it's not the same bike at all. That said, it's way, way, way out of my price range. Hell, I had a hard time convincing myself to buy a used Tikit.

--sam

I'm sure the UFB is a fabulous bike and I'm in awe of the effort that must have gone into creating it, but i justI doubt there is any real market for a $14k bike that looks to the casual eye the same as the $1k bike it is derrived from . If you have that kind of money to spend you want people to know you have that kind of money to spend, which may sound crass but it is experience that holds true in the automotive world. Now if I had $14K to spend on a bike it would have to go on a top end Moulton, instantly recognisable, unique looks and world class performance.

You have said it all and you couldn't be more right. :thumb:

Yes, but why not have world class performance AND the smallest fold available on any bike. I think that's the goal here.

--sam

Does anyone know if Len is actually producing these Ultimate Bromptons? He's been at it for years and from reading the history I can see why.

To quote the PDF: "I even made a few titanium carrier frames to replace the obscenely heavy steel ones that Brompton produced for their nifty quick-release cargo bag system. These were a big hit among the Brompton dealers and several riders I met with on one trip to England". I have one of these in case anyone is interested in a trade (I'm moving to an S-type Brompton with smaller luggage).

Shame these bikes are so expensive....
Wonder how the prices would be, and how they'd fair in the market if the frames were aluminum, and not Ti.
droooool...

Yes, but why not have world class performance AND the smallest fold available on any bike.
Because the end product costs almost as much as a Toyota Yaris.

And as far as I can tell, you only wind up whacking 5-6 pounds off of a Brompton S2L-X, which is 1/10 the cost of this bike.

Good luck getting a loan for your "UFB." ;)

I never said I was buying one... just pointing out the design goal.

You're right, it costs an arm, a leg and a left nut, but you are paying for the Ultimate Folding Bike... You're not paying for the 5 to 6 pound heavier Kinda Cool Folding Bike. I mean... this is the zenith, the ultimate.

Excelsior!
--sam

Shame these bikes are so expensive....
Wonder how the prices would be, and how they'd fair in the market if the frames were aluminum, and not Ti.
droooool...

I think that this is the right idea. Aluminum frame with forks and rear triangles made from something other than hi-ten steel would be relatively light -- see the modified Merc by LP -- and not nearly as daunting as a $10K tab for the titanium version.

Regardless, if someone is looking for the Ultimate in portability, ride, and the ergonomics are right, then who am I to say what is worthwhile?

Does anyone know if Len is actually producing these Ultimate Bromptons? He's been at it for years and from reading the history I can see why.

To quote the PDF: "I even made a few titanium carrier frames to replace the obscenely heavy steel ones that Brompton produced for their nifty quick-release cargo bag system. These were a big hit among the Brompton dealers and several riders I met with on one trip to England". I have one of these in case anyone is interested in a trade (I'm moving to an S-type Brompton with smaller luggage).

Supposedly available "very very soon". Why not send him an e-mail?

I think one of the best things about this "super brompton" is that it allows you to use standard parts. As Brompton folks noted to Len... he's basically a free R&D department for Brompton. His ideas may eventually make their way into Brompton production bikes. We can only hope that standard parts becomes part of that.

--sam

I have got a super Brompton its called a Mezzo! LOL

Supposedly available "very very soon". Why not send him an e-mail?

I did try to get in touch with him via e-mail a while back and got no reply... OK looking back at my sent items it was almost 6 years ago, maybe I'll try again.

EDIT - Len is contactable via e-mail & is producing a run of 100 bikes "including some very exciting new improvement (!) and soon we'll have firm pricing, and be able to start taking deposits to secure those bikes"


As Brompton folks noted to Len... he's basically a free R&D department for Brompton.

Yep, poor guy, Brompton proper, have stolen his Ti thunder and got the cost down to a reasonable level by fabricating the parts in Russia & China. It's not just the handmade Ti that makes this bike SO expensive, it does also have a Rohloff...

Anyway, Len is a inspiration for Brompton modders everywhere.

I still see some room for improvements:

Firstly, the handlepost should have more forward angle. This way you could get rid of the adjustable stem. This would simplify the fold, reduce weight and improve stiffness.

Also one would like to eliminate the need for a telescoping seatpost, which is just too many clamps.

My ultimate folder would be a fixed gear, super compact Brompton-like fold, <8kg, <10 sec folding.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." (A. de Saint-Exupery)

piback, so you end up with Brompton with a greater folded width, less handlebar adjustment and sized to fit people with "duck's disease"; not my ultimate folder.

piback, so you end up with Brompton with a greater folded width, less handlebar adjustment and sized to fit people with "duck's disease"; not my ultimate folder.

The folded width does remain the same.
Unfortunately there is no adjustment system that is light weight and stiff at the same time. Lightest and stiffest adjustment is obtained by different handlebars.

"Duck disease"? Actually most comfortable riding geometry for touring is widely known to be 0-7cm handlebar below saddle high. This way you get a 45° body angle and optimum weight distribution over feet, butt, and wrest. The saddle-to-bar distance should be approximately 'forearm+hand+fingers + 2. hand width'. Brompton defeats this geometry rules which is its major problem, imho. Its too upright position does cause back problems quite quickly and becomes unstable at faster speed.

if i have the money i would definitely buy his bike instead of forking out and sending my money to englandUsual xenophobic crap. Len Rubin may be an enthusiast but he is still basing his UFB concept around the core design of Brompton's founder Andrew Ritchie. While it might be one amazing bike they have no right to promote with Brompton's brand mentioned in the word 'Super Brompton'. That's piggybacking and perhaps it would be wise for Len to desist from using such a word when launching the UFB.

It's great to see such innovations and it's obviously aimed at wealthy enthusiasts of folding bikes. Better to see monied people buying such a piece of engineering than some horrible monster of a vehicle like a hummer or 4WD.

Having said that, I notice some Brompton knockers jumping on the bandwagon. The Brompton is good value for money in the long-term and the most trouble-free bicycle I've ever had. I'm not a Bromptonite and also have 2 Dahons; a Mu SL and a Cadenza 08. Having said that the Brompton is my my favourite and the best money I ever spent on any type of gadget. I'm about to have some nice mods completed to it including the inclusion of an 8 speed Shimano Alfine hub shortly. It might not make it a superlight bike but thenI don't need it to be superlight version as I only carry it short distances and can opt to roll it. It certainly won't cost me $10-12,000 and it will be just as good in its own right to cycle.

At the end of the day Brompton knockers no matter what you think it still remains one of the finest proper compact folding bikes in the world. I'd like to state for the record Len Rubin's concept is no hoax. It's clever refinement and materials work. Just drop the brand piggybacking and most of us will wish the Rubins all the best!

PS I'd like to add the UFB is not what the Brompton 'should be'. Most of us could not afford such a version whilst most of us can afford a Brompton if we save up. It's all about accessability. There's room for premium editions but the critics of the Brompton continue the old hack cliches and they usually come from the other side of the Atlantic pond. Very predictable!

"Duck disease"? Actually most comfortable riding geometry for touring is widely known to be 0-7cm handlebar below saddle high. This way you get a 45° body angle and optimum weight distribution over feet, butt, and wrest. The saddle-to-bar distance should be approximately 'forearm+hand+fingers + 2. hand width'. Brompton defeats this geometry rules which is its major problem, imho. Its too upright position does cause back problems quite quickly and becomes unstable at faster speed.

For those of us built a little taller, a Brompton does provide a reasonable saddle to handlebar height. Both Mrs LWaB and myself have ridden over 200 km in a day on Bromptons and 'tkatzir' of this forum has done the 1200 km Paris-Brest-Paris on one. Len Rubin's adjustable stem gives the smallest folding size and a worthwhile range of saddle to handlebar distances. Try riding his bike, the stem is surprisingly good, probably because it was not engineered for the lowest possible cost as with most adjustable stems. YMMV.

Usual xenophobic crap.

I don't see how supporting one's local community is 'crap' or a phobia.

Kam

Usual xenophobic crap. Len Rubin may be an enthusiast but he is still basing his UFB concept around the core design of Brompton's founder Andrew Ritchie. While it might be one amazing bike they have no right to promote with Brompton's brand mentioned in the word 'Super Brompton'. That's piggybacking and perhaps it would be wise for Len to desist from using such a word when launching the UFB.Good point actually. I scanned through the pdf of the history (far too many gratuitous exclamation marks!!! :p ) but I seem to recall they are good friends. As long as Rubin's bike does not compete in the same market, "Super-Brompton" is a compliment of sorts, acknowledging the UFB's pedigree.

(You do seem touchy this morning, my friend of the thunder-calves. :roflmao2: )

Are the Super Bromptons built on top of a donor Bromptons or are they manufactured from scratch?

Kam

I don't see how supporting one's local community is 'crap' or a phobia.

Kam

No it isn't xenophobic to buy local but implying the ideas behind the UFB project to be 100% American is wrong. Secondly what's wrong with spending some money in the UK economy? We buy lots of your products and don't complain about it, thanks very much! Thirdly a number (not all I stress) of you in the US are very quick to come up with criticisms of Brompton's flaws and what they should do and shouldn't do as a company. At the end of the day it's an honest small business that makes very good folding bikes. No-one in America has to buy them if they don't like the price or features, as does any consumer. But they are hugely popular in the UK, especially London now and they don't copy anybody else. They even recommend prospective buyers check out the websites of their main competition before making a purchase decision. They also manufacture locally in London and that's makes a change from a British or any perspective given all the outsourcing and FDI that exists these days at the expense of local employment and sometimes even quality. I'm not against outsourcing overseas but I'm against it becoming a fashion for every company in existence. It's fine for a company such as Downtube or bring some very nice Chinese made bikes to the market at keen prices. My 1st folder was a Downtube and enabled me to get on the folding bike ladder.

That's why I applaud socially run but commercial businesses such as Brompton and Bike Friday who bring handbuilt durable quality and innovative folding bikes to the market at a fair enough price. Both marques will last a lifetime and fold beautifully and ride relatively well. They aren't the only good companies but I like what they make and what they stand for.

I still see some room for improvements:

Also one would like to eliminate the need for a telescoping seatpost, which is just too many clamps.


As far as i can recall the seatpost is used to lock the frame when it is in the folded position, so if you do without the telescoping you will need to find another locking mechanism. It is one of the Brompton's design strengths that when folde it is actually locked into one solid lump with nothing loose or flapping about.

(You do seem touchy this morning, my friend of the thunder-calves. :roflmao2: )

Hello Jur! Long time no speak! No you are right it is a compliment of sorts to Brompton and as long as they've sought permission then it is a positive for both the UFB concept and Brompton. Absolutely it's a different upper niche segment that Brompton probably have no interest in.

Touchy? Perhaps a little lol but when you read the usual cliches about spendng money in England or what 'Brompton should be' I have some strong things to say back lol!

As far as i can recall the seatpost is used to lock the frame when it is in the folded position, so if you do without the telescoping you will need to find another locking mechanism. It is one of the Brompton's design strengths that when folde it is actually locked into one solid lump with nothing loose or flapping about.

Exactly! It's easy to fire off criticisms without ever truly knowing the Brompton or using it on a regular basis. I'm not saying it's beyond criticism but some of the usual Brompton knocking gets very predictable after a while. I've long said Brompton could be a little more adventurous and progressive on some aspects such as a new 6 speed shifter design and slightly more hub options. However, overall they are a great company who makes a great folding bike built to last and it latches togther beautifully as Diode rightly points out. By the way who said that Brompton don't offer a telescopic seat post?

Len Rubin's adjustable stem gives the smallest folding size and a worthwhile range of saddle to handlebar distances. Try riding his bike, the stem is surprisingly good, probably because it was not engineered for the lowest possible cost as with most adjustable stems. YMMV.
It's not bad at all. But it is still kind of hack, not 'ultimate'. Giving the stem a more forward angle instead would eliminate the need for that extra stem. Less weight. Less folding time. Less complexity. Optimized in every detail and reduced to only what is the truly necessary is what an 'ultimate' folding bike should be like.

Regarding the telescoping seatpost, yes, that is exactly the point. It double serves to lock the rear. But for larger people it has to be telescoping. Only way out clearing this up seems to have a slightly higher main tube. Thinking this further, you get to slightly bigger wheels, 18" or 20". Also the handlepost becomes shorter and stiffer (the uberlong and wobbly handlepost is the main problem of folding bikes, imho). To optimize folding size, a simple tuck under fold doesn't work then. This is why Bike Friday, Mezzpo, or Birdy do a slightly asymmetric fold-under sideways. But this makes the package too wide. So the answer of Dahon was the Curl, a Brompton-Friday-mix fold but with 18" wheels and main tube curling in between the wheels. I like this idea - but seemingly this concept is not mature yet. Maybe there are some other ways to go. Still lots of space left for more ideas and innovations to come.

Fortunately, there is always someone willing to pay a fortune for something they believe to be 'the ultimate'... no matter what that costs. Then, when something better comes along - carbon-fibre, for example, they'll be first in the queue again.

And for what? Just to say you've got one. Most of us could probably lose 5lb personal weight and achieve the same effect. Good luck with the drooling!

That's why I applaud socially run but commercial businesses such as Brompton and Bike Friday who bring handbuilt durable quality and innovative folding bikes to the market at a fair enough price. Both marques will last a lifetime and fold beautifully and ride relatively well. They aren't the only good companies but I like what they make and what they stand for.

Well said!

mulleady wrote : . . " that's why i applaud socially run but commercial businesses such as brompton and bike friday who bring handbuilt durable quality and innovative folding bikes to the market at a fair enough price. Both marques will last a lifetime and fold beautifully and ride relatively well. They aren't the only good companies but i like what they make and what they stand for."

+1

Fortunately, there is always someone willing to pay a fortune for something they believe to be 'the ultimate'... no matter what that costs. Then, when something better comes along - carbon-fibre, for example, they'll be first in the queue again.

And for what? Just to say you've got one.

Agree with you.


Most of us could probably lose 5lb personal weight and achieve the same effect. Good luck with the drooling!

Well on my limited 54 kg weight, if I remove 5lb, people will think that I arrived from a 2 dimension universe !

Fortunately, there is always someone willing to pay a fortune for something they believe to be 'the ultimate'... no matter what that costs. Then, when something better comes along - carbon-fibre, for example, they'll be first in the queue again.

And for what? Just to say you've got one. Most of us could probably lose 5lb personal weight and achieve the same effect. Good luck with the drooling!

I can't imagine improving on titanium in durability/weight ratio. It should last forever and if all the consumable parts are standard then the total cost of ownership over 30-50 years could actually be lower than a Brompton. To me, it seems like a good product, but to invest so much in unproven enhancements/features is too risky. So for now I'll leave it to the playboys.

On the other hand, one could just spend $2000 on an equivalent nonfolder and invest the other $10,000 in a "bribe fund" for train conductors and security guards. :p Or $3000 on a good roadie, $2000 on a good Brompton, and pick the right tool for the job.

Yeah... but what if a 16.5 lb super brompton is the right tool for the job. Just sayin'.

I mean... it will never be the right tool for the job for me because I can never afford it... but it could be the right tool for someone. I wish Len the best of luck... and I hope that some day his ideas get picked up by Brompton for their bikes (which I can probably afford with a little belt tightening).

--sam

Yeah... but what if a 16.5 lb super brompton is the right tool for the job. Just sayin'.

I mean... it will never be the right tool for the job for me because I can never afford it... but it could be the right tool for someone. I wish Len the best of luck... and I hope that some day his ideas get picked up by Brompton for their bikes (which I can probably afford with a little belt tightening).

When do you think it would be the right tool for the job?

I must be either really smart or incredibly dumb when it comes to managing money because I could easily afford one and I see signs on the subway asking people to support welfare programs for families at my income level (granted I don't have a family to support, but still). But I'm having a hard time imagining the UFB doing more than an appropriate selection of 3 or 4 high end specialist bikes.

I think the key is that you don't have a family to support. I've heard they can get really expensive, really fast. Not unlike certain "super" bikes. ;)

As for the right tool for the job... What if the right tool is an ultra-lightweight multi-modal commuter with good gearing. Most folders can handle the multi-modal part. Some can handle the decent gearing. Some can handle the ultra-lightweight bit. However, there are few that can do all of that. My guess is that this "super brompton" can probably handle that with few, if any, compromises.

I still can't afford it... and even if I could afford it, I could easily convince myself to use that money for something else. That doesn't mean that someone out there won't buy it. As a matter of fact, I suspect that the bikes will sell.

--sam