Road Cycling - Need some custom bike buying advice

Here goes...

First off, I currently ride a 2000 LeMond Buenos Aires. I am in the market for a new bike, mainly because I feel a little stretched out on my LeMond. I had decided on a Seven Axiom Steel bike. I got my measurements taken at the local Seven dealer, they sent in the measurements to Seven, and the folks at Seven sent back their numbers. Too my surprise they are almost identical to my current bike (which I feel stretched out on). Everyone who sees me on my bike agrees that I am a bit stretched out. With my hands on the hoods, my arms have almost no bend, and my shoulders are really tense, and on longer rides I suffer from neck discomfort.

Now we set me up on the bike simulator thing(which I don't think feel comfortable on) at the local shop and I still feel stretched out when the bike is set up to Seven's measurements. We re-took some measurements, sent them back in to Seven, and again the numbers came back the same. At this point I am getting a little nervous about the purchase and asked if I would be able to get my deposit back if I decided to go another route. He said "that would be no problem."

We then sat me on the bike simulater deal that is adjustable and adjusted the problem, which by the way is the saddle to handlebar length. My current bike is 80.6 cm and Seven's numbers were about the same. We pulled it back to about 79 cm and I was feeling a little better. The guy at the bike shop called the fit technician at Seven and they talked. They came up with the number 78.4 cm for the saddle to handlebar length. How I'm not quite sure.

Here is my question to you. Should I get back my deposit and look elsewhere for other bikes? Should I go with the new numbers that we got from the adjustable bike at the shop? or should I trust in Seven's judgements and go with their original numbers? I know these guys are pros and know what they are doing but I was just real surprised to see how similar their numbers were to my current bike, not only once but twice.

Help!!! Sorry this is so long, I hope it reads well. I am honestly sitting up at night thinking about this and thought I would pose my situation to an unbias audience. Thanks for your help in advance.

Tennessee

Tennessee,

I'm in the process of getting a custom bike made. I went with a local frame maker (Eisentraut), (http://www.litman.com/bikes/eisentraut.htm) which gave me the opportunity to meet him a couple of time, he not only measured me, but also rode with me observing me on my bike, measured my old bike, interview me about my riding habits, likes and dislikes of my current bike, and then he went to the drawing board.

Using only measurements for bike fitting is not always enough, as 2 people can be the same size generally, but the may flex differently, ride differently etc.

I believe that if you are spending a lot of money getting a custom bike, it should be customized not only to your general measurements but to your specific body and riding style and habits..
See if you can find a local builder in you state and go to them. You'll spend the same money and get personal attention and you will be happier with th e process and the resulting bike..

I'd get the deposit back. The whole objective for getting the custom bike is to get a good fit, and they are essentially telling you your current bike fits fine. Saddle to handlebar distance can be adjusted many ways on a stock bike - try that first.

I'll tell you - I am disappointed how quick my LBS puts people in custom frames. In theory, everyone needs a custom frame - in practice, not many people really do. Friend of mine who is an inexperienced cyclist just spent $4500 on a custom Seven, and the phone interview process with Seven lasted a few minutes according to her. She's 5'9", normal proportions. Another woman I know bought the same Seven and she's 5'5' and normal proportions. My guess is that it comes down to one thing - profit for the LBS.

Hi,
you sound like a Rivendell customer. You could also see what a Waterford dealer has to say. In Seven's defense, I will say this..... there are different kinds of bikes. You get the bike equivalent of a Ferrari some compromise in comfort is to be expected. A sport or lite touring bike will give you a more upright position. But I'd shop around a bit....
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/bikes_rivendellframes.html

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/2004/data/bicycles/stock/rst/index.php

Seven is a custom* bike.

Serotta is a bike where you will ride the exact same geometry on the Serotta fitting cycle that you will ride on the frame they build for you. They do not use a tape measure...I fit people every day with a tape measure, and I am not selling a custom* bike.

custom* bikes are not done with tape measures. They are done with fitting cycles that can be adjusted in every way to determine the exact length and angle of the frame to get it exactly correct.

Hi,
you sound like a Rivendell customer. You could also see what a Waterford dealer has to say. In Seven's defense, I will say this..... there are different kinds of bikes. You get the bike equivalent of a Ferrari some compromise in comfort is to be expected. A sport or lite touring bike will give you a more upright position. But I'd shop around a bit....
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/bikes_rivendellframes.html

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/2004/data/bicycles/stock/rst/index.php
From James H Haury. Rivendell and Waterford are both Good suggestions . Here is another Bike friday, they make excellent folders to fit. Also if you care to travel to japan Panasonic makes custom fit Bikes.

My advice would be to find another fitter. The tape measure is only the first step in that process (like RoadWarrior said) The next is the measurement bike. The last is your feelings. It sounds like your Seven dealer has defeated the process. You don't buy a custom bike to fell uncomfortable on it, you buy so it fits like a glove and is tailored to your riding style. Serrotta guys are good fitters. Get your money back.

I appreciate all the replies.

I did not mention that this bike shop is not my favorite around town. I just have always liked the idea of owning a Seven. I always heard Seven did great stuff so I went to check this shop out, honestly I haven't been that impressed with their shop. My favorite bike shop sells mostly high end Italian stuff (Tommasini, DeRosa, and Pegoretti) as well as Orbea, Bianchi, Merlin, and Serotta. Although I am in love with the Tommasini Fire I am thinking about going and talking to them about a Serotta. I just think I can get more bike for the money going with Serotta over Tommasini. I am a big fan of steel(it's all I've ever ridden). I would just hate to go through this whole process with them and the Serotta not make me happy either.

I hate to ask for my deposit back, because of all the time I have spent on this, but I just don't feel comfortable with the whole thing. Part of it is the idea of commiting to a bike that I have never sat on. Part of me wants to trust in the folks at Seven but then part of me wants to feel what the bike feels like before I make this large of a purchase.

I think I'm going to go talk to the folks at my favorite local bike shop. I just wanted to talk this over with some people who don't have a stake in the purchase. I appreciate your input on this matter.

when i went to my LBS to buy a bike i was fitted and it was determined that i needed a 58cm top tube AND a 58cm down tube, as measured center to center. after it was determined that i liked the ride quality and endurance of steel i chose Steelman, largely because they made their stock bikes with 58cmtt and 58cm dt, so the LBS suggested i go with them instead of paying for a custom from another manufacturer.
all the other tweaks have been with riser stems and longer stems; and fore/aft positioning of the saddle.

i can't believe how many bikes are 58cmtop tube and 57.5cm down tube...

can you find a manufacturer that has your spec's on their stock bike?

How is your fitness level and posture?

If your lower back isn't strong enough, or if your posture isn't correct, you will lock your arms straight to support your body - no matter how well your bike fits.

There is a video - www.uwtv.org/programs/displayevent.asp?rid=652 - that is rather lengthy and tedious, but it has some great information about posture in relation to bike fit and overall fitness.

Something else to think about - good luck.

55/Rad

How is your fitness level and posture?

If your lower back isn't strong enough, or if your posture isn't correct, you will lock your arms straight to support your body - no matter how well your bike fits.

There is a video - www.uwtv.org/programs/displayevent.asp?rid=652 - that is rather lengthy and tedious, but it has some great information about posture in relation to bike fit and overall fitness.

Something else to think about - good luck.

55/Rad

I didn't want to spoil the party, but this was my first thought also. You may have already, but if you haven't, it may be wise to talk to someone, perhaps a coach, who can give you advice on your position on the bike.

Serious Cycling by Ed Burke has a very detailed step by step analysis of position on the bike. It may be helpful to do more research in this area before making a final decision.

Interesting how the solution "you need a custom frame" is also the one that is probably the most profitable to the LBS. No discounts, pay full retail, and pay for the "priviledge" of getting a custom bike. The custom Ti Seven my friend bought was $4400 and it's equipped with Ultegra ... compare that to the Ti (same type of Ti)Litespeed Tuscany I bought (w/Ultegra) for $2100 (last year's model) on eBay .... hmmmm ...

I am a hard fit with special needs and could not be any happier than I am wth my Serotta. It was a much better experience then any other custom frame builder, large or small, that I met. Roadwarrior is right, you get a much better fit with a fit cycle then some guy measuring you like a clothing tailor. When I was fit for my Serotta, the LBS and I experimented with different angles and measurements past my height and reach. They took into accout my flexibility, bone length ratios, riding style (which is very aggressive) and just about anything you can think of asking.

Don't get me wrong - I think a custom bike as part of an informed decision makes perfect sense.

My fitness level is pretty high. I ride about 120 - 150 miles a week(at least). I've been riding a ton lately to get ready for my first race in July. Doing Intervals once a week, working in sprints at least once a week, a couple of longer rides 30 - 50 miles with the occasional metric on the weekends, at least one recovery ride, and usually one or at most two days off which I usually try and hit the gym to work with weights(for my upper body). I try and do 120 crunches a day, although I find my self skipping those quite often.

I consider myself in pretty good shape, actually I'm in the greatest physical shape of my life. I'm 5'10" and only weigh about 135 lbs. I did weigh about 145-150 but this Summer I have dropped down to about 135 and trust me I don't skip any meals, I actually find my self eating more to feed my muscles.

I'm not sure how to answer the question about posture. My flexibility level is pretty high. I know the guy at shop trying to sell me the Seven asked me to bend over and see if I could touch the ground. He was actually surprised to see that I could pretty much bend over and pretty much put my palms flat on the ground.

Does any of this mean my posture is correct? No, but I am pretty fit and flexible.

I'll watch that video and see what info. it has. Thanks 55/Rad. And thanks again to all of you for all the informative responses. You all are pretty much telling me what I was beginning to think in the first place. Get back my deposit and just wait a bit. Do some test riding of a bunch of other bikes and see what I like. Honestly, I have yet to test ride anything. I have only ridden steel in my life. Maybe I'll try and ride some other Steel stuff as well as some Titanium stuff, heck maybe I'll even take out a Carbon bike just to see how it feels. Paying close attention to size and my comfort level on the hoods as well as in the drops. Then maybe I can make a more educated decision about what I want to spend my money on.

I too, am pretty fit and flexible for a 43 year old. But I found I was having lower back and stiff neck issues after long rides. What the video taught me was how to flatten my back and bend my elbows - something I was already doing when I was comfortable and not pushing too hard. I found out though, that when it came to the hard pushes and climbs, I was arching my back and locking my elbows.

Now that I'm concious of it, I don't do it - though it's still a natural tendency. The result is that I am more relaxed and comfortable throughout the entire ride. I did my first century of the year yesterday and although I was a bit sore last night, my back, shoulders and the rest of me feel great today.

Think about it the next time you go out.

55/Rad

Tennessee - what size LeMond are you riding, and who fit you on it?

Markedoc, It is a 53 cm with a 55 cm top tube. I "think" the perfect fit would be more like 53 / 54. When I was fit on my LeMond, all the guy did was tell me to sit on the bike, put my hands in the drops, and he asked me if I could see the front hub. It was blocked by the handlebar so that he said that is the right fit. Another case of a shop owner (which I had known for quite sometime) just making a quick sale to a uninformed buyer. That was in 2000. Since then I took it to a very well respected bike shop (the one I mentioned earlier that sells high end Italian stuff) and he has dialed me in on the LeMond as much as possible. He recommended that if I was going to keep my LeMond for a while longer before buying a new bike that I should go to a shorter stem. It would be a quick fix to the problem of being stretched out but ultimately my best move would be to get a bike with a shorter top tube.

BTW, this is not the shop that sells Seven bikes. The shop that sells Seven stuff mostly sells Trek bikes but has been a long time Waterford dealer and are pretty new at dealing with Seven. I am thinking about just getting my deposit back and taking a step back from the buying process and doing some more research. I plan on spending quite a bit on this bike and plan on having it for quite some time. I had currently built my Seven up with their aero fork, seatpost, and DA-10, with Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I think I'm just gonna hold up for a bit.

55/Rad, I'm about to sit and watch that video. I just got back from the gym and am putting off doing some work.

I just noticed that quote under your name, "more cowbell." That cracks me up! That SNL skit gets me rolling. I just saw it not too long ago again on a best of Christopher Walken episode and I was rolling.

Well, I put my vote in for the DA 10 groupo ... I had the Ultegra on my LeMond and also on the Litespeed I bought this spring, and found a great deal on the DA 10 and the new DA wheels. Sold my Ultegra on ebay. The DA upgrade (net cost around $525) was well worth it IMHO.

($525 being the net upgrade cost for the groupo only)

55/Rad, I just noticed that quote under your name, "more cowbell." That cracks me up! That SNL skit gets me rolling. I just saw it not too long ago again on a best of Christopher Walken episode and I was rolling.
Your the first to mention it - thanks. I'm not much of a B.O.C. fan, but that skit has stayed with me for years.

BTW - I have 2 Lemonds - one a 55 (Maillot Jaune) and the other a 57 (Poprad). The 55 took forever to dial in but once it got there, it's terrific. I love the Lemond geometry.

55/Rad

To be honest, the best fit you can get is from people who specialise in physiology and bike ergonomics. Most custom builders AREN'T fit specialists - most have just paid for something like Fitkit and run your numbers through a program and *viola* - there's your fit.

I send my roadie customers to two guys who specialise in fitting cyclists to bikes, and they've been doing that long before I even had a road bike. I honestly think that you should see "fit" as complimentary to buying a custom bike, and not something that is only part of buying a custom bike. If you think you have some special fit requirement, then go get fitted up - maybe a couple of times by different people - and THEN go shopping for a custom frame if you want to. If you do that, then you're not in the position you are now, where you're not happy with Sevens results and feel bad about asking for a refund.

Markeddoc, a lot of my friends are trying to talk me into getting Campy. I like Campy, the clean look around the handlebars is really appealing but I'm not a fan of the thumb shifter. I currently have Shimano 105 and it has been pretty much bulletproof. I figure since I have had such luck with my Shimano group, why change? DA-10, when getting a new bike, just seems the way to go. Thanks for the vote of confidence.