Tandem Cycling - Casual Group Ride Dynamics

Wife and I went on our first slow-paced (12-14 mph average) group ride this last weekend. Met some good folks in one of the cycling clubs of which we're members. Based on this experience I've come to a few conclusions but would like some feedback from the more experienced on this forum.
1. It's not practical to ride a tandem in a group of singles with this average pace. On level ground 13 mph seems to represent barely touching the pedals. Might work at a very high cadence, but my wife isn't comfortable much above 85. As hard as I tried I couldn't avoid using the brakes and obviously this was not a paceline situation.
2. In looking at club rides there is a gap between relatively slow paced rides that are quite flat and fast, longer rides that have a good deal of climbing. Seems like singles that want to go faster also want to work hills. Makes sense that this is a byproduct of our local terrain. When you live in a valley with lots of traffic anything longer than 25 miles seems like it has to go up.
3. Don't get caught in the rear at a stoplight. We're not as maneuverable as a single so I've got to have a small gap before we get underway. If 2-3 folks in front are tardy at getting moving we'll miss the light. Not a big deal as we can easily catch up.
4. The singles can make us pay a bit on even small hills depending upon pace; the devil in me wishes we could reciprocate in the flats, but that wouldn't be good group etiquette.

My wife and I enjoy each others company and don't need to ride in a group, but an occasional dose of group cycling is enjoyable. What do you other folks do when riding with singles? Do you ride with a faster group and just work like dogs on the hill? We can certainly go faster on downhills, but I don't think our uphill/downhill average would equal that of a younger, stronger single rider. Do you look for a group ride with a cruising pace approximately equivalent to that of your tandem?

My wife and I frequently ride in groups as you describe. However, the only time we usually take the tandem is when we are the actual ride leaders. We gave up riding in a slow group of singles for exactly the same reasons you mention. The tandem also makes a dandy "pace vehicle" so long as we don't let it go too much on down hills.

-Ken

We have only done a handful of group rides. In our limited experience it seems that single bikes & tandem bikes are efficient in two different areas. Singles like climbing. Tandems like everything else. On hilly terrain i find that both have almost the same average speed but rarely do they actually ride side by side for very long. This may not be true for everyone.
My wife is new to cycling so we are vertically challenged. A team with two strong riders may be just as fast ascending as a single. I will be interesting to see how much our climbing improves as my wife gets stronger.

For equally strong riders, the tandem has an advantage on the flats, which is neutralized climbing.

As long as we're not talking major sustained climbs, you can ride a tandem with single riders of approximately the same strength.

On the flats, use the aero advantage to spend more time at the front pulling. most single riders will appreciate the tow.

On the hills, start at the front, drift back as necessary and catch back on the descent.

If you really have trouble hanging on the climbs, you can always roll off the front a bit before the climb, and use the gap to allow you to climb at your own pace whiel the group catches up.

Thanks for the input, all. We definitely could ride in the right level of paceline, but we've got to get stronger first. I'm thinking that we would need a 20+ mile pace equivalent to 20 mph in the flats to keep up with almost any group that rode in a paceline. That's in addition to getting stronger in the hills. I assume this is pretty slow for a tandem, but that's life when you're getting older. We've got a lot of room to get stronger. My wife only has 1000 miles in the last 20 years, all since last August. I've got upwards of 2500.

. That's in addition to getting stronger in the hills. I assume this is pretty slow for a tandem,

It's a misnomer that tandems climb slowly. It's just that tandems are faster than single bikes on the flats (for a given average power of riders), but are only as fast as single bikes climbing.

Speed on the flats is governed predominantly by power to surface ratio. Because the tandem has double the power, but less than double the surface area, a tandem team can keep up with a more powerful single rider, and be faster than an equally powerful single on the flats.

Climbing, however, is almost entirely governed by power to weight ratio. Thus, the tandem team with less average power than the single rider, no longer enjoying their aerodynamic advantage climbs slower than the more powerful rider that they were able to keep up with on the flats, leading to the tandem getting dropped, and the perception that tandems climb slower than single bikes.

The tandem team will climb as fast as a single rider with a power to weight ratio equal to the tandem teams average, with only a very slight speed penalty for the tandem arising from drivetrain efficiency loss for the captain, and issues with coordinating the efforts of the two riders.

I rode in a group that routinely had a tandem. That couple could outpace just about everyone else in the pack. Two engines with 1/2 the drag really can add up to speed on the flats.

Does anyone know if someone has established a coefficient of drag for a single -vs- a tandem?

In our case it's probably more like (old age speed reduction)*(his + hers). We're about a 1.6 on the his+hers scale I would think, but getting stronger. One of my 33 year-old sons has been training for triathlons and I think he can average about 25 mph on a flat course so we're not about to sneak up on his. I would be interested in the drag coefficient of a tandem. Will google around tonight.

Another issue I have riding a tandem with singles is that they accelerate faster than we do, especially from a stop, so we end up playing catch-up after every stop light.


The tandem team will climb as fast as a single rider with a power to weight ratio equal to the tandem teams average, with only a very slight speed penalty for the tandem arising from drivetrain efficiency loss for the captain, and issues with coordinating the efforts of the two riders.

This sounds great in theory but in practice, the steeper the hill, the more of an advantage the single bike has. On a single I can climb like a rabbit (I'm 61 and I out-climb my 32-year-old son) but on the tandem I feel every slight rise in the road. Climbing anything of any consequence is like riding through wet concrete. We do all we can to gain downhill momentum and try to charge up the next hill but if it's at all steep or very long, we quickly find ourselves in the granny ring grinding our way to the top. On tandem club rides we can start near the front but are usually the last ones to crest the hill. Climbing on a tandem is painful and I just don't get it.

We personally don't have a problem with climbs. We are good climbers on our singles so we can also climb on the tandem. If you get two really good climbers on a tandem, the tandem will be fast up hills. We ride with a group almost every weekend and the ride usually starts easy on the flats unless someone is really motivated and then it can get 25+ miles on slightly uphill and rolling terrain, on our group the real fast pace (attacks) start right at the beginning of the climbs, most of the time is us on the tandem that start the charge and end up at the top with the fastest guys. Tandems can be fast all around. ;)

This sounds great in theory but in practice, the steeper the hill, the more of an advantage the single bike has. On a single I can climb like a rabbit (I'm 61 and I out-climb my 32-year-old son) but on the tandem I feel every slight rise in the road. Climbing anything of any consequence is like riding through wet concrete. We do all we can to gain downhill momentum and try to charge up the next hill but if it's at all steep or very long, we quickly find ourselves in the granny ring grinding our way to the top. On tandem club rides we can start near the front but are usually the last ones to crest the hill. Climbing on a tandem is painful and I just don't get it.

What's your watts per kilogram (w/kg), and your stoker's w/kg. If you climb substantially slower, for the same level of exertion on the tandem than a single bike I would be willing to bet that your team average w/kg is less than your own w/kg.

This sounds great in theory but in practice, the steeper the hill, the more of an advantage the single bike has. On a single I can climb like a rabbit (I'm 61 and I out-climb my 32-year-old son) but on the tandem I feel every slight rise in the road. Climbing anything of any consequence is like riding through wet concrete. We do all we can to gain downhill momentum and try to charge up the next hill but if it's at all steep or very long, we quickly find ourselves in the granny ring grinding our way to the top. On tandem club rides we can start near the front but are usually the last ones to crest the hill. Climbing on a tandem is painful and I just don't get it.

Tandems climb as fast as the slowest rider. If you are faster but the other tandem rider is slower, your tandem will climb faster than your slowest rider but not as fast as you. So if you can climb at 13 miles and hour on your single and he can only climb it at 10 miles on a single, the tandem may only climb at 11 or 12 miles max. Another factor is how long can you guys maintain that speed, if you can maintain the speed for 2 miles and you slower rider can only do it for a mile, once you pass the one mile marker your other rider will start to slow down and in order for you to keep the speed you would have to do quite a bit of extra work and may end up riding even slower at the end.

Tandems climb as fast as the slowest rider.

It's even worse than that. If the riders are nearly matched, both for power and optimum cadence, then yes, you will get something close to the average, which will be close to normal for the faster rider, and ever so slightly better than normal for the slower. Mismatch them, and you get both riders doing what they can outside of their optimal range. A compromise cadence is worse than optimal for both. But at least you're in it together, and small rollers and flats make up for it!

It's even worse than that. If the riders are nearly matched, both for power and optimum cadence, then yes, you will get something close to the average, which will be close to normal for the faster rider, and ever so slightly better than normal for the slower. Mismatch them, and you get both riders doing what they can outside of their optimal range. A compromise cadence is worse than optimal for both. But at least you're in it together, and small rollers and flats make up for it!

I'm quite aware of this mismatch and I am sure that this is our problem.

It's even worse than that. If the riders are nearly matched, both for power and optimum cadence, then yes, you will get something close to the average, which will be close to normal for the faster rider, and ever so slightly better than normal for the slower. Mismatch them, and you get both riders doing what they can outside of their optimal range. A compromise cadence is worse than optimal for both. But at least you're in it together, and small rollers and flats make up for it!

You are 100% correct. Tandem requires team work. :thumb:

Is it still called work if it's fun? :)

My wife is a great asset. I ride more often than she does but what her role is, is to add to what I'm doing. Together we zip along at a faster pace than when I ride alone.

One time when we came around a corner at the bottom of a long hill. up in the distance we could see a single rider climbing the hill. I said to my wife, " do you know what you call that (meaning the single up ahead)? She said, "what?" I said: MOTIVATION! He was a good half mile ahead but we caught him before the top of the hill. A couple strokes later I looked back and he was over 30 yards behind and drifting... MOTIVATION nothing better!

Teamwork on the tandem and it is amazing what we can accomplish, and we are both 50 and growing.

Tandemnh,
Agree completely on the teamwork. We're both competitive and I suspect over the next 6 months we'll get so we can scoot along pretty well. I'm sure the tandem is going to improve my strength for my single and my wife will get stronger each week as we do more fast work and hill work. We'll figure out how to fit in with a group and hopefully find some other tandem folks in the South Bay to ride with. We've got lots of miles left in us, but darn I wish we'd taken this up 10+ years ago.

The tandem team will climb as fast as a single rider with a power to weight ratio equal to the tandem teams average, with only a very slight speed penalty for the tandem arising from drivetrain efficiency loss for the captain, and issues with coordinating the efforts of the two riders.

... a very slight...? You mean non-signifcant, like in the 1-2 % range? Not in our experience nor in the experience of most, if not all, the tandem teams we ride with.

Wife and I went on our first slow-paced (12-14 mph average) group ride this last weekend. Met some good folks in one of the cycling clubs of which we're members. Based on this experience I've come to a few conclusions but would like some feedback from the more experienced on this forum.
1. It's not practical to ride a tandem in a group of singles with this average pace. On level ground 13 mph seems to represent barely touching the pedals. Might work at a very high cadence, but my wife isn't comfortable much above 85. As hard as I tried I couldn't avoid using the brakes and obviously this was not a paceline situation.
2. In looking at club rides there is a gap between relatively slow paced rides that are quite flat and fast, longer rides that have a good deal of climbing. Seems like singles that want to go faster also want to work hills. Makes sense that this is a byproduct of our local terrain. When you live in a valley with lots of traffic anything longer than 25 miles seems like it has to go up.
3. Don't get caught in the rear at a stoplight. We're not as maneuverable as a single so I've got to have a small gap before we get underway. If 2-3 folks in front are tardy at getting moving we'll miss the light. Not a big deal as we can easily catch up.
4. The singles can make us pay a bit on even small hills depending upon pace; the devil in me wishes we could reciprocate in the flats, but that wouldn't be good group etiquette.

My wife and I enjoy each others company and don't need to ride in a group, but an occasional dose of group cycling is enjoyable. What do you other folks do when riding with singles? Do you ride with a faster group and just work like dogs on the hill? We can certainly go faster on downhills, but I don't think our uphill/downhill average would equal that of a younger, stronger single rider. Do you look for a group ride with a cruising pace approximately equivalent to that of your tandem?

It depends on you two. We find group riding very enjoyable. We can think of very few instances when we would rather be riding by ourselves. If you want, you could find the group/groups that fit your needs/abilities. Mixing tandems and singles is a non-issue if the group is mature. We find that if we ride with singles that can stay with us on the flats and down hill, then we usually can stay with them on the climbs.

We do rides of known route (miles, terrain, pace) with some tandem teams and some singles. Some are stronger, some are weaker... but we find that the group motivates us to ride stronger than we could by ourselves while having fun.

We also do show and go rides. Some people are glad we show up... others dread it, LOL. These rides are great for interval training: We go to the front and gradually pick up the pace to close to max. HR, then we drift to the back until almost fully recovered. If the group is generally strong, we just take our place in the pace line. Either way is a great workout with a couple of all-out sprints in the mix.

My only recommendation is that as you start riding with new (to you) groups. That you carefully observe the group etiquette/dynamics and "do as you see done".... " a la tierra que fueras, haz lo que vieras"

... a very slight...? You mean non-signifcant, like in the 1-2 % range? Not in our experience nor in the experience of most, if not all, the tandem teams we ride with.

The data would suggest about a 5% efficiency loss for the Captain, above the 2% loss that would occur anyway on a single bike. (The poster on here that had the tandem with power meters for a study posted the data I'm referring to.) So if the captain is producing half the power the loss in team power would be 2 1/2%, which would hardly be noticeable, except say in a hill time trial.


As for efficiency of working together, I think that varies by the team, but a team that can climb comfortably out of the saddle, and can ride at a good cadence for both of them can climb quite well.

Again, I think the perception that Tandems are inefficient climbing comes back to the fact that they are so fast and efficient on the flats, that they seem to climb poorly, because the aerodynamic adavantage is removed.

We wish we had started sooner too, but kids take the lead in priorities. Now that the last is graduating HS we are seeing more time available to riding. Prior to NH we lived in Dublin, CA, that would have been a great place to have had a tandem... but again the kids were very young.

What's your watts per kilogram (w/kg), and your stoker's w/kg. If you climb substantially slower, for the same level of exertion on the tandem than a single bike I would be willing to bet that your team average w/kg is less than your own w/kg.

Translation: "So you're saying I'm fat, right?"
Very few captains ought to want to say that in public about the rear-admirals under whom they serve, but you are undoubtedly correct. :-)

Rule 1: Unless you are both very strong, you don't ride tandems to beat people. You ride to enjoy cycling together. Yes, on flat runs, even a so-so stoker can help a tandem team stay ahead of a line of singles who are only too happy to draft. And downhill, any tandem will run right over single bikes. But man! those ups work you hard.

Rule 2: If you want to get faster, ride with faster people. And those faster people will want to get faster by climbing hills. So should you (if you want to get faster.)

As for motivation, remember the Joe Gideon character in Bob Fosse's All That Jazz where he's coaching a second-rate dancer: "Look, I'm not going to be able to make you into a great dancer. I'm not even sure I can make you into a good dancer, but I know one thing: I can make you into a better dancer."

And downhill, any tandem will run right over single bikes.

Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_zZLAKGBXM)

Scroll to 1:36 and you'll see that theory disproven. I was coasting on a single. They were even pedaling. :D

Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_zZLAKGBXM)

Scroll to 1:36 and you'll see that theory disproven. I was coasting on a single. They were even pedaling. :D

Heh, heh. Say something dumb-ass nowadays and somebody always pops up with documentary proof to debunk it. I guess I should have said:

"Given a steep enough hill, any tandem with a crew with a taste for speed will outrun a single not ridden by a monster-strong rider who is overhauling everyone else on the course too!

"And provided the stoker is not surreptitiously braking....

Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_zZLAKGBXM)

Scroll to 1:36 and you'll see that theory disproven. I was coasting on a single. They were even pedaling. :D

Then you must be heavier than the tandem team... or a heck of lot more aero.... but I like the theory of sabotage, rear brake controlled by the stoker.

Seriously: What song and who plays in your video? That is a high energy tune!!

Translation: "So you're saying I'm fat, right?"


No, just saying that if the team climb slower than the captain does on a single, then the team's power to weight ratio is lower than the captain's alone. There are several variables in the equation. It could be the numerator as oppossed to the denominator.

My stoker is by no means fat, but her w/kg are lower than mine.

Then you must be heavier than the tandem team... or a heck of lot more aero.... but I like the theory of sabotage, rear brake controlled by the stoker.

200 lbs, bike about 24 lbs. Look how upright they are sitting, so a lot of drag there. I had pedaled to max speed then got as aero as I could. They look more like a relaxed speed couple.


Seriously: What song and who plays in your video? That is a high energy tune!!

The song was in the Disney/Pixar movie Cars. It is Real Gone by Cheryl Crow.

My stoker is by no means fat, but her w/kg are lower than mine.

A graceful response by an astute captain who avoids making the career-limiting move of giving affront to his superior officer. I commend you for your science and your sensitivity.

200 lbs, bike about 24 lbs. Look how upright they are sitting, so a lot of drag there. I had pedaled to max speed then got as aero as I could. They look more like a relaxed speed couple.

I made a spreadsheet based on some measurements of the air friction of a cyclist cited by Whitt and Wilson (Bicycling Science.) Using differential calculus it then derives predicted terminal velocity for a given weight and slope gradient. With your crew and vehicle weight of 224 lb., I'd estimate that a hill slope that allowed you to reach your stated maximum speed of 43.8 mph would tug us (bike and crew 145 kg) down at ~ 50 mph, assuming similar aero posture and no braking. Since we have exceeded this speed many times over the years, I think the model has some validity for comparisons but I'm not sure it accurately predicts absolute speed for a specified slope gradient. The source of error lies chiefly in the estimate for air friction coefficient which depends on so many subtleties. Do you happen to know the actual slope on that hill on your MS Ride?

Caveat:
Whitt and Wilson contend that the air friction coefficient for a tandem is somewhat greater than for a single bike. Despite the close in-line arrangement of the riders, there is still more of us to push through the air, even still air (but less than if we were on two single bikes of course. In a crosswind, it's greater than with two singles since we can't bend our bike into an echelon.) A tandem is therefore somewhat less fast going downhill than people often assume, and that's why I used a conservative estimate for the achievable tandem speed in the above illustration. As you showed in your video, a heavy single rider, well tucked, could indeed overtake a light tandem team (especially with a child stoker) who are sitting up with their elbows out and jackets flapping. Apples with apples....

It also explains why even though a group of singles on level ground will happily draft a tandem, they can usually blow us away whenever they really want to. They can form an echelon to cheat a crosswind and if there are more than two or three of them, the rotation of the lead allows them to hold a pace fueled by all that testosterone that we can't match. Once they use tactics to erode the small air resistance advantage that the tandem starts out with, it comes down to watts, hearts, lungs, and legs again.

Is it still called work if it's fun? :)
Is it still fun if it's called training? Is for me, but haven't sold that to the stoker yet! :)

As a follow-up to my original post: Rode yesterday with a small group of faster folks which made for a much more enjoyable experience. In one paceline stint at 21-22 mph we really didn't have to work very hard and we could still pull out from the paceline and maintain that pace. I think the bottom line is that a slow-paced casual ride for singles is like sitting on your couch on a tandem. We'll look for faster and longer rides. I can't imagine the draft on a tandem's wheel; we must punch quite a hole air.

Of course we would be the slugs in a group of youth-driven tandems!

single bikes often enjoy drafting a tandem.
Then they pass going uphill. Getting them to understand they need to be single file and let the tandem pass on the downhill can take repeating.