"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Cat 3's (and above): how did you upgrade?

From 4 to 3, did you upgrade on points or top 10's? I can't seem to string together enough points quickly enough without having some expire. On the other hand, I keep racking up the top 10's: got my 8th last week and my 9th today. With any luck, I should be a 3 by this time next week.

So, I'm just curious: tell me your upgrade story.

I'm just piping in here to say that my coach thinks that you shouldn't upgrade without results. Even if it's form 5-->4.

I agree with that sentiment, but not for the first upgrade. Then again, I think it's directed more towards not being frustrated after the upgrade than anything else. If you upgrade on top 10's you're probably strong enough to finish in the pack in the 3's. Worse comes to worst, you can always drop down to the 4's again.

Well, that's sort of why I raise the question. I'm anxious to upgrade because I'm the only 4 on my small team. I really like these guys and I'm getting tired of racing solo. But I'm under no delusion that I'll all of a sudden be contending for the win in the 3's.

I upgraded in 2001 on a handful of top 10s and having raced about 40+ races as a 4 (over a 1 year period). My local USCF official knew I had the bike handling skills to fit in just fine with the 3s, and I wanted out of the 4s ASAP because the they tended to be too twitchy for my likes.

I'm just piping in here to say that my coach thinks that you shouldn't upgrade without results. Even if it's form 5-->4.

I agree with that sentiment, but not for the first upgrade. Then again, I think it's directed more towards not being frustrated after the upgrade than anything else. If you upgrade on top 10's you're probably strong enough to finish in the pack in the 3's. Worse comes to worst, you can always drop down to the 4's again.



I dont know about other areas, but in Nor Cal top 10's are good results.

I dont know about other areas, but in Nor Cal top 10's are good results.

Thanks, Homeboy!

points

A bunch of top 10s, from 4->3.

I also only had ~15 or so of the requisite 20pts to go from 3-->2.

But, I had some finishes in several SuperWeek races that impressed the upgrade reps enough that they didn't ask how many points I had. They told me I should upgrade.

So I did, and now I'm watching my race results from last season, which were few and far between, fall by the wayside and "expire" as the year goes on. I've only done 5 races on the road this year, and I imagine I'll probably top out at a dozen or so on the season. Roughly a third of what I did last year.

Why? I'll tell you. The Oregon calendar makes no sense; they have their state road race in the first weekend of June, the MTB championships in early May, and aside from stage races, you can very rarely race twice in a weekend. The stage races are also all within a month and a half or so of each other, in a June to mid-July timeframe. It's not like it gets hot here, either, which limits what you can do in some parts of the country. While they have a good amount of races, and are very organized, the actual organization of the calendar does not promote the development of talent in the state.

[/rant]

4->3 was on top tens.
What's funny is that because I was marginally qualified to upgrade, I got a coach and trained smarter because I didn't want to get dropped. But because I was a 3 I could also race collegiate A's, which I did and it put a hurting on me. Those came together and I'm not far from another upgrade, as a result of the top 10's ->3's "semi legit" upgrade.

question: how many top 10s are required?

I know i could look i'm hoping to be lazy here

question: how many top 10s are required?

I know i could look i'm hoping to be lazy here

10, in fields 30 or more. But you are also supposed to have done 25 races

I moved up from 4->3 on points (one win, bunches of podiums and top 5s). I moved up from 3->2 on points (all points from wins).

I thought I had enough points but turns out I was one short... so I unintentionally ended up upgrading on experience. I had 2 wins and 6 top 10s.

Im sandbagging on points 4 ->| 3.

Actually I'm sitting on 27 points, so no violation has occurred here :)

I've seen too many go to the 3's only to fade away. Plus my coach likes for one to learn while being competitive instead of moving up. Plus I don't have one damn point in a crit. Plus I'm 40 and the 3's is as far as I'll probably ever go.

Back in the day everyone was a 4 starting out. Cat 5s were only reality in jokes, like Cat 6s are now.

I only ever got upgraded once, to Cat 3.

I thought I won only one race, but when I checked my training diaries one night, I realized I won 3 races out of the last 4 that I did. The last race was a points race crit, and I won 4 of the 5 sprints (the one I didn't win, I almost caught the 2 man break at the line and got 3rd by like 10 feet). I turned around after the sprint and asked the official if I won the race. The official laughted and upgraded me on the spot (they carried stickers and could do that back then).

That was, um, a long time ago. ha. 23 years ago.

cdr

Back in the day everyone was a 4 starting out. Cat 5s were only reality in jokes, like Cat 6s are now.

I only ever got upgraded once, to Cat 3.

I thought I won only one race, but when I checked my training diaries one night, I realized I won 3 races out of the last 4 that I did. The last race was a points race crit, and I won 4 of the 5 sprints (the one I didn't win, I almost caught the 2 man break at the line and got 3rd by like 10 feet). I turned around after the sprint and asked the official if I won the race. The official laughted and upgraded me on the spot (they carried stickers and could do that back then).

That was, um, a long time ago. ha. 23 years ago.

cdr

Similar story .... more like 26 (?) years ago for me :eek: ..... won a couple of races one weekend and Sue basically tapped me on the shoulder and told me time to upgrade to 2. You must have had lots of cat 3 points back then, how did you miss going to 2 ?

I upgraded 4-3 on top 10's I never got top 3 in a race as a 4, it wasn't till I was a 3 or better that I won or got on the podium at a race(not counting tt's).

I got 15 of my 20 points as a 4 in 2 days: won a RR sprint, took a crit field sprint for 2nd. The way to do it is not to just race a lot, but to peak and race a lot while you're fast.

I upgraded 4-3 on top 10's I never got top 3 in a race as a 4, it wasn't till I was a 3 or better that I won or got on the podium at a race(not counting tt's).

Same here. I've had better results in the 3s and the P/1/2s than I did in the 4s.

That makes me feel better. I have 2 third places among the 9 top tens.

I got 15 of my 20 points as a 4 in 2 days: won a RR sprint, took a crit field sprint for 2nd. The way to do it is not to just race a lot, but to peak and race a lot while you're fast.

The only thing about this is that there are so many other factors in racing other than fitness. It's a risk, nonetheless

i never upgraded from the 3s. back in the early nineties i had 3x the amount of points necessary to upgrade to a 2 but i didn't do it and stopped racing to concentrate on school. i had 24 of the 25 points needed at one point last year but then some of them expired. if i ever stop just riding around and actually have a training program i might finally get the upgrade.

points.

Similar story .... more like 26 (?) years ago for me :eek: ..... won a couple of races one weekend and Sue basically tapped me on the shoulder and told me time to upgrade to 2. You must have had lots of cat 3 points back then, how did you miss going to 2 ?

For a long time it was "Top 3 in 3 races, top 6 in 6" and I rarely, if ever, placed in the top 6. Other than those three Cat 4 races (one of them a collegiate race), I haven't won a proper one day, non-series race. I only started placing consistently about 3-5 years later.

I never had enough points to upgrade to 2. Years where I had a lot of points (28 I think was my max after my Belgium trip) the minimum to upgrade was 30 points (and you got bumped at 60). Other years you only needed something like 20? and I had 17 or 18.

One official offered to upgrade me to 2 after I got 3rd/2nd in a P123 race. The winner started sprinting at something like 500m to go and won, and I tried to go around a Cat 2, and after he took me all the way across the road - Limerock Raceway, maybe 3 lanes worth - the officials immediately swapped our places. The only thing was that there were like 12 starters, and I know the minimum field size for a race to count is much bigger than that. Plus I wasn't training much, 40-50 miles a week, and I felt unprepared to be upgraded. So I turned him down. Last time I got that close to an upgrade.

cdr

never move up without the required points (except cat5's)
you are only cheating yourself

never move up without the required points (except cat5's)
you are only cheating yourself
Not true. In our Spring Training series, I was racing the P123 race and winning some field sprints and sitting in comfortably but I was a Cat 4. After racing two Cat 4 races I upgraded even though I didn't have all the points because the person who handles the upgrades saw me racing at the training series and agreed I was ready to go up.

Not true. In our Spring Training series, I was racing the P123 race and winning some field sprints and sitting in comfortably but I was a Cat 4. After racing two Cat 4 races I upgraded even though I didn't have all the points because the person who handles the upgrades saw me racing at the training series and agreed I was ready to go up.

So did you start winning Cat 3 races?

Points.

As a sprinter, my points can come in bunches. More importantly, my points can accrue before my fitness is ready for the next category.

Cat 4 - was easy for me, no difference from the 5's

Cat 3 - I definitely upgraded before the fitness was ready and I struggled for a while. This year I focused my training and Cat 3 became easy (except for very hilly road races)

Cat 2 - Only a few races in, it's tough but bearable, results could take a long time. Will also have to become more specialized in choosing races.

I waited until I could consistently attack and recover and race in the front group of the 3's before upgrading. Transition has felt better than when I upgraded to Cat 3.

points

Not true. In our Spring Training series, I was racing the P123 race and winning some field sprints and sitting in comfortably but I was a Cat 4. After racing two Cat 4 races I upgraded even though I didn't have all the points because the person who handles the upgrades saw me racing at the training series and agreed I was ready to go up.

I didn't say it was cheating to move up without points, I said it was cheating "yourself" to move up without points.

IOW - do it legit, you'll be better prepared in the end

Points.

As a sprinter, my points can come in bunches. More importantly, my points can accrue before my fitness is ready for the next category.

I waited until I could consistently attack and recover and race in the front group of the 3's before upgrading. Transition has felt better than when I upgraded to Cat 3.


Absolutely a neccessity. Here in FL, there are many bunch kicks in the 3's. Many of those top placers are not at all prepared for the next step, but upgrade anyway and suffer the humiliation of being completely unprepared.

So did you start winning Cat 3 races?

Well, I have only done one Cat 3 race so far this year (yesterday). I was doing a lot of work for a teammate who is leading the points series and I led him out for the sprint so no haha I got 11th. Hopefully soon! Maybe when the crits roll around.

points.

Well, I have only done one Cat 3 race so far this year (yesterday). I was doing a lot of work for a teammate who is leading the points series and I led him out for the sprint so no haha I got 11th. Hopefully soon! Maybe when the crits roll around.

sounds like a good start anyway :thumb:

points

points for 4->3 and 3->2.

Why? I'll tell you. The Oregon calendar makes no sense; they have their state road race in the first weekend of June, the MTB championships in early May, and aside from stage races, you can very rarely race twice in a weekend. The stage races are also all within a month and a half or so of each other, in a June to mid-July timeframe. It's not like it gets hot here, either, which limits what you can do in some parts of the country. While they have a good amount of races, and are very organized, the actual organization of the calendar does not promote the development of talent in the state.

[/rant]

The Oregon race calendar is skewed way too early - especially for road races. It seems that every year riders complain on the OBRA chat board, and promoters come in saying that the early races get big fields, and the mid to late summer races don't, so they put their races in the spring. I would be really happy to see all the races shift to about a month later but I can't blame promoters for holding races when people show up. Maybe we just don't have a enough riders here. I don't know what the solution is but I'll try to do every road or circuit race I can through the summer. Seems like mostly I'll be doing crits after the road race championships this weekend.

As far as stage races - there was one in early May, should have been one in late May but it was cancelled for lack of pre-regs, and there is one over Labor day weekend so they span the calendar pretty well - plus the stage races in WA round things out with Enumclaw, Walla Walla and maybe more. By the way there may be some good road races in WA in the summer that are worth the drive.

after reading the entire thread i'm guessing the way to move up is to accumulate...wait for it....points

the advice of staying in a category where you are placing often to learn tactics and racing a lot when peaking to efficiently garner points appealed to me

do all points have a shelf life of 365-366 days from the day they were earned?

i am watching my 28 day Power Profile in wko+ which shows that i can sprint with the lower 3s and ftp with the lower 4s; i think this is an accurate assessment of my capabilities; should the Power Profile be a factor in the decision to upgrade? has it actually influenced anybody's decision to move up or stay put?

i'm a 7 for 10 cat 5; 3-3rds; teammates have mentioned that i'm ready for a win and that i need to learn how to do that; makes sense to me

has anybody lingered in a lower cat until they got kicked out because they consistently placed or won and found that to be satisfying?

after reading the entire thread i'm guessing the way to move up is to accumulate...wait for it....points

the advice of staying in a category where you are placing often to learn tactics and racing a lot when peaking to efficiently garner points appealed to me

do all points have a shelf life of 365-366 days from the day they were earned?

i am watching my 28 day Power Profile in wko+ which shows that i can sprint with the lower 3s and ftp with the lower 4s; i think this is an accurate assessment of my capabilities; should the Power Profile be a factor in the decision to upgrade? has it actually influenced anybody's decision to move up or stay put?

i'm a 7 for 10 cat 5; 3-3rds; teammates have mentioned that i'm ready for a win and that i need to learn how to do that; makes sense to me

has anybody lingered in a lower cat until they got kicked out because they consistently placed or won and found that to be satisfying?

Don't make upgrade decisions based on power. Base it on race performance, race limiters, and goals.

Don't make upgrade decisions based on power. Base it on race performance, race limiters, and goals.

+1. Also, as many will tell you, the CAT's on the Power Profile are meaningless, even more so for the lower your weight is, IMO. For example, it's easy to get a great 5sec w/kg if you only weigh 130lbs. But you could be sprinting on a flat section next to someone weighing 170lbs who has a less w/kg than you and get creamed.

after reading the entire thread i'm guessing the way to move up is to accumulate...wait for it....points

It's usually the best way IMO, but some people I know have struggled in cat 4 and then dominated in cat 3 because of the different racing dynamics.


the advice of staying in a category where you are placing often to learn tactics and racing a lot when peaking to efficiently garner points appealed to me

I agree, but on the other hand there aren't usually much in the way of tactics in a cat 4 race (although there can be some) so moving up to cat 3 could be beneficial if that's where all your teammates are.


do all points have a shelf life of 365-366 days from the day they were earned?

Yes, but note that you only get "points" in cat 4 or above. There are no upgrade points from cat 5, only experience, and experience does not expire.


i am watching my 28 day Power Profile in wko+ which shows that i can sprint with the lower 3s and ftp with the lower 4s; i think this is an accurate assessment of my capabilities; should the Power Profile be a factor in the decision to upgrade? has it actually influenced anybody's decision to move up or stay put?

No, and I hope not...


i'm a 7 for 10 cat 5; 3-3rds; teammates have mentioned that i'm ready for a win and that i need to learn how to do that; makes sense to me

ok... so win ;)


has anybody lingered in a lower cat until they got kicked out because they consistently placed or won and found that to be satisfying?

Well you can't get kicked out of cat 5. IMO if you are consistently winning in a lower category and you are getting satisfaction out of beating people without any challenge then you should ask yourself if you need the easy wins for your ego or if you staying because you are afraid of the challenge.

Cat 5 4 3 is the same fitness pool. Most people get to 3 within a year. But some are better handlers than others.

Cat 5 4 3 is the same fitness pool. Most people get to 3 within a year. But some are better handlers than others.

I imagine it will be a little longer till I'm a 3. :o

It's usually the best way IMO, but some people I know have struggled in cat 4 and then dominated in cat 3 because of the different racing dynamics.

I agree, but on the other hand there aren't usually much in the way of tactics in a cat 4 race (although there can be some) so moving up to cat 3 could be beneficial if that's where all your teammates are.



Yes, but note that you only get "points" in cat 4 or above. There are no upgrade points from cat 5, only experience, and experience does not expire.



No, and I hope not...



ok... so win ;)



Well you can't get kicked out of cat 5. IMO if you are consistently winning in a lower category and you are getting satisfaction out of beating people without any challenge then you should ask yourself if you need the easy wins for your ego or if you staying because you are afraid of the challenge.

That's my main motivation. We're a small team--most of the guys are 3's--and I'm getting a little tired of racing on my own.

That, and I'd like to race Nevada City at least once.

Cat 5 4 3 is the same fitness pool. Most people get to 3 within a year. But some are better handlers than others.

My plan.

Upgraded 5 -> 4 in four races. Three of four of those races were cat 4/5 fields, and all but one I finished on the podium. As such, I've already got 12 points toward a 4 -> 3 upgrade with more than half the season left, including a local NRC event (lots of points still up for grabs!).

Cat 5 4 3 is the same fitness pool. Most people get to 3 within a year. But some are better handlers than others.

proof?

otherwise..

BALONEY

Hmm, by definition getting to cat 3 requires either a boatload of experience or beating out most everyone else in the race. So "most people" cannot get to cat 3 in a year, it is just numerically impossible. Now if you meant most people who get to cat 3 did so in a year, then maybe so. I would be doubtful, but would be willing to entertain evidence.

Well, if you do it on points, by definition it's within a year.

Well, if you do it on points, by definition it's within a year.

That doesn't mean that you went from 5 -> 3 in a year, it just means you can't use points older than a year. You could have been a 4 for a while before you got any points. And you could end up having old points expire before you have collected enough to upgrade.

ok... so win ;)

coming up...RR on 6/13 and 6/14


Well you can't get kicked out of cat 5. IMO if you are consistently winning in a lower category and you are getting satisfaction out of beating people without any challenge then you should ask yourself if you need the easy wins for your ego or if you staying because you are afraid of the challenge.

interesting that cat 5 is the only category you won't get kicked out of; i see your point; the question comes from watching some races with some local notables, and from hearing stories about how they consistently dominate; but i might be mixing up category races of all ages and age group races of all categories and in what type of races they dominate in

too bad the Power Profile got stomped on; it made it all look so easy