Commuting - On STOP lights/signs

Admitedly I'm new to biking (been commuting to work for about two months now). Been learning pretty much from what I read on the forums and from what I can observe on the road and I just noticed that a lot of cyclists near my house totally ignore (as in don't even slow down on) stop signs and even stops lights on occasion. I thought the concept was a bike was like a car (with all the benefits and responsibilities) but clearly I'm missing something because these stop warnings are totally being ignored.

Granted it's more convenient not to slow down and any person with adequate skill on a bike can do this but the bigger question is, should we be doing this?

Opinions appreciated....

Admitedly I'm new to biking (been commuting to work for about two months now). Been learning pretty much from what I read on the forums and from what I can observe on the road and I just noticed that a lot of cyclists near my house totally ignore (as in don't even slow down on) stop signs and even stops lights on occasion. I thought the concept was a bike was like a car (with all the benefits and responsibilities) but clearly I'm missing something because these stop warnings are totally being ignored.

Granted it's more convenient not to slow down and any person with adequate skill on a bike can do this but the bigger question is, should we be doing this?

Opinions appreciated....No we shouldn't.

No we shouldn't.

Care to elaborate?

Care to elaborate?

Simple: People who run red lights without bothering to check for traffic and so on have a habit of ending up as organ donors.

Plus, if I ever want to be considered as a vehicle, I need to obey the traffic rules. Stop lights and signs are mandatory where I live (no right turns on stop lights, for example).

--J

I thought the concept was a bike was like a car (with all the benefits and responsibilities) but clearly I'm missing something because these stop warnings are totally being ignored.

Nope. It's them that's missing something.



Granted it's more convenient not to slow down and any person with adequate skill on a bike can do this but the bigger question is, should we be doing this?

My standard response to these sorts of questions is: it's a matter between you and your conscience. But, bear in mind that it's illegal, and if you get pulled over by the police, you'll most likely get a ticket.



Opinions appreciated....

Dangerous words around here :)

In the USA at least, you are legally obligated to follow all the rules of the road pertaining to stop signs and traffic signals.
Having said that, "most" bikers will slow for stop signs and stop if any traffic is there.
"most" will always obey a traffic light, although there are circumstances where you might not wait for the light to change to green ( I commute in the early morning, and some lights wont trigger for me).
And just to make sure I overuse the word, "most" police officers will ignore rolling stops from bicyclists assuming they are riding safely. Of course it only takes one exception to ruin your day. :)

Rules may vary. Where I live, a red light means exactly that (like I said earlier, no right turns). A stop sign means stop. A track stand will do, but you will have to stop your bike completely. What is a "rolling stop" BTW?

I may do other stupid things during my commute, but ignoring traffic lights or stop signs consistantly would really be a shortcut to the organ donor list.

--J

What is a "rolling stop" BTW?
Rolling stop (illegal) is where you slow down as you approach the stop sign, then roll on through instead of coming to a complete stop.

<--- Read what my avatar says.

I ride a bike for personal pleasure
I don't ride for a commute nor business
So I'm never in a hurry to get anyplace, and there is nothing to be gained by pitting oneself against a vehicle weighing 100xs as much as mine, so I give the right of way
Many riders I see seem to ride with an attitude which fosters antagonism from drivers, drivers who couldn't care less about bikers
It will take a generation at least to change both drivers and riders attitudes on the streets
So I try to make my little contribution to courtesy......one ride at a time

I believe bikes should be governed by regulations which are different from both motorized vehicles and peds. I will not stop for a stop sign or light if the roads are all clear and no copper is present. I just won't do it.

I slow down a lot for stop signs. I keep just enough momentum that I don't have to unclip (can't do a track stand although it would be cool ot learn). If there is traffic I unclip and wait my turn. I always stop for stop lights. If it is a stop light I know will not be triggered by my bicycle I wait for traffic to clear. I have yet to be pulled over, but I am a firefighter/first aider in my town so I don't forsee any problems :)


LALA do you care to mention what these regulations would entail. I'm sure you have sparked more than just my interest.

Ray

I treat a stop sign like a yield sign. I slow to less than 5 mph and coast through if there's no vehicles crossing. I regularly see cars and trucks going through stop signs at more than 10 miles per hour. If there's cross traffic, I ride real slow (less than 1 mph) and wait my turn. (Can't do a track stand). Usually a driver will wave me through. I give a little wave back in acknowledgement (sp) in return.

For stop lights I usually try to trip the sensor with my bike. I like to see the look on drivers's faces when they see me do that. :) If I can't trip the sensor that way, I'll ride up onto the ped crossing and push the little button. I don't like to do that because I'm less visible to cars when I'm in that position.

I always wait for the light to turn green and look all four ways before I go. One time I decided to get a two second jump on the green light when a truck decided to try to beat the red. I had to take evasive action to avoid being hit. I figure I'll wait the few extra seconds from now on.

I believe bikes should be governed by regulations which are different from both motorized vehicles and peds. I will not stop for a stop sign or light if the roads are all clear and no copper is present. I just won't do it.

Just out of curiosity, do you drive a motor vehicle as well?

Just out of curiosity, do you drive a motor vehicle as well?

I try to avoid operating motor vehicles, but I do.

I personally will obey all traffic rules as much as possible. If it was like 2am with not a car in sight I would bike on through (the same I would do in a car). I totally agree with the sig mentioned "Same roads, same rights, same rules".

Personally I think blatently ignoring traffic rules in front of cars only fuels the road rage that drivers have towards cyclists. i.e. "lousy cyclists, not only do they not belong on the road, but they think they're above the rules too"

Yeah, seeing a bike beat you home is very enraging for autos. :)
I agree, tho, some peoples do get mad when they see a bike beat a light and they can't.

However, most people are emotionally underdeveloped. :p


I personally will obey all traffic rules as much as possible. If it was like 2am with not a car in sight I would bike on through (the same I would do in a car). I totally agree with the sig mentioned "Same roads, same rights, same rules".

Personally I think blatently ignoring traffic rules in front of cars only fuels the road rage that drivers have towards cyclists. i.e. "lousy cyclists, not only do they not belong on the road, but they think they're above the rules too"

Lots of interesting answers. Now that I know that it's wrong in principal and legally, I'm just curious if anyone has ever been given a ticket for not making a full stop at stop signs/lights.

As an aside, I just realized that the situation is quite similar to a ticket I got recently...

I started work at this company about 8 months ago and it's right by Venice Blvd (which is a relatively busy street). There is only one restaurant on our side of the street and so I was told that you can just cross the street (aka Jaywalk) to go to the other side of the street where there were 3 more places to chose from. So everyday for the next few months, I (and pretty much everyone in the office) did exactly that. I didn't think it was too wrong because cop cars would even drive past me while I was on the middle island until one day I got pulled aside by a cop for Jaywalking.

Ticket was for $110 and suffice to say that I've stopped jaywalking ever since. But the curious thing though is everyone in the office, who I've told this story too, some major penny pinchers, still continue to jaywalk.

Moral of the story, does one have to be punished or get hurt before "insignificant" laws are obeyed?

I obey traffic rules, including slowing down for a school zone (15 mph) that is on a nice flat section and usually a tailwind. I admit my stops aren't complete stops, but I unclip one leg, and slow to the point of being almost stopped, and then continue if it's clear. Traffic lights I always follow. I generally don't have to trip the light sensors, since there are enough cars going the same way that one of them triggers the light. When it is a problem, I move over and do the pedestrian thing. I'm curious how lsits tries to trigger the signal with the bike. I just don't think I weigh enough, even if I jumped up and down on the bike.

Common misconception.
Lights are not triggered by weight. They are actually use induction changes.
Just put your bike over the squiggly line where they lay the wire down under the pavement.

Yeah, seeing a bike beat you home is very enraging for autos. :)
I agree, tho, some peoples do get mad when they see a bike beat a light and they can't.

However, most people are emotionally underdeveloped. :p

Which rules do think should be different for bicycles?

I think Idaho has a good law for bicycles. For bikes, stop signs are yeilds, stop lights act like stop signs.

One thing I notice as a bicyclist is I can hear much more then when I'm driving in a car. Using more of my senses gives me a greater perspective around me then. I stop when cars are around, and I breeze through when they aren't. I don't think any bicyclist ignores the law, but I think we all take a few allowences.

Now my partner started going on a light as it was turning green and got a ticket from a cop. She must have said something worth while, because when she went to fight it, the cop never turned it in.

Generally I avoid intersections with stop lights just so I don't have the temptation to roll through a red light. :)

What about lights at a T intersection? My attitude is if I am not in the interstection officially (since I ride the shoulder if one is available) then the light doesn't apply unless I am in the lane. What do you think, am I way off base here? That is probably the only time I will cruise through a red. Otherwise I stop even at the stupidest (long even though there is no traffic) red lights.

When I'm riding I try to give other vehicles on the road what I want from them: consistent and predictable behavior.

Stop sign means stopping forward progress. Red light really means stop - put down a foot (I can't track stand). A school bus with flashing lights means don't pass no matter what.

I don't care what the drivers are doing. Most of them are following the law, so I can't excuse my behavior based on a few idiots.

I only make exceptions when there are lights I can't trip. I've even eliminated cutting through a parking lot to avoid a intersection with lights and using the side walk to avoid busy areas.

In the last few days I've seen fellow bike commuters blowing through signs, lights, past school buses with lights and guards up, and all in front of traffic waiting or approaching.

And on the weekends I see packs of wannabe racers blowing through intersections, clogging lanes.

I don't like it anymore than I like car drivers speeding, swerving, rolling signs, running red lights, etc. It destroys the consistency in traffic conditions that I think is necessary for safe travel.

A different set of rules for cyclists would create further inconsistency.

What about lights at a T intersection? My attitude is if I am not in the interstection officially (since I ride the shoulder if one is available) then the light doesn't apply unless I am in the lane. What do you think, am I way off base here? That is probably the only time I will cruise through a red. Otherwise I stop even at the stupidest (long even though there is no traffic) red lights.

I've thought about that and my conclusion is this: the state law here indicates that bikes have the rights and responsibilities of cars, but must travel on the right side of the lane. I believe this includes the shoulder. I don't see that that creates any exception to obeying traffic lights. I think I would be upset if a car pulled over to the shoulder and then jumped through a red light. If I don't want cars doing it, then I shouldn't do it.

Yay, Idaho! This is what I'm talking about!


I think Idaho has a good law for bicycles. For bikes, stop signs are yeilds, stop lights act like stop signs.

One thing I notice as a bicyclist is I can hear much more then when I'm driving in a car. Using more of my senses gives me a greater perspective around me then. I stop when cars are around, and I breeze through when they aren't. I don't think any bicyclist ignores the law, but I think we all take a few allowences.

Now my partner started going on a light as it was turning green and got a ticket from a cop. She must have said something worth while, because when she went to fight it, the cop never turned it in.

Generally I avoid intersections with stop lights just so I don't have the temptation to roll through a red light. :)

I think Idaho has a good law for bicycles. For bikes, stop signs are yeilds, stop lights act like stop signs.

One thing I notice as a bicyclist is I can hear much more then when I'm driving in a car. Using more of my senses gives me a greater perspective around me then. I stop when cars are around, and I breeze through when they aren't. I don't think any bicyclist ignores the law, but I think we all take a few allowences.

Now my partner started going on a light as it was turning green and got a ticket from a cop. She must have said something worth while, because when she went to fight it, the cop never turned it in.

Generally I avoid intersections with stop lights just so I don't have the temptation to roll through a red light. :)


Being able to hear and see approaching cars more easily is a big factor when it comes to slowly rolling through stop signs. Another factor is that if I actually do see a car approaching it's rather easy to unclip and stop quickly. Cars can't do that - too much momentum. The problem with unclipping and stopping isn't that it's hard to stop - it's that it's a lot more effort to start moving again and reclip, relative to rolling slowly and looking both ways.

I say this only about stop signs. Stop lights are different because they are usually only on bigger roads and thus there is more traffic moving more quickly and a stop is therefore very prudent and safe.

I definitely agree with being predictable. If I can manage my speed to hit the intersection after all cars have passed through, I will do so and slow down to 5-10 mph. If not, then I will stop.

The other thing to consider is how dangerous being on a bike can be once stopped. When I'm in the intersection, regardless of whether I stopped or not, I want to be out of the intersection as soon as possible. I can stop from 10 mph in a couple of feet, but it takes about 5 seconds to accelerate from a unclipped standstill to 10 mph. Most cars obey rules, but the one that hit me as I was going through a green light and he was making a right turn on red, didn't. I'd rather take my chances with a little bit of speed than without.

My commute only has one big light to deal with, and its a funky on/off ramp going both directions on I80 in Reno. I generally am very careful because of mass amounts of traffic, and a VERY weird light setup. However, sometimes I j-walk (ride) the cross walks, and then hop onto the street again when I am past it all and its safe. This morning though I waited with all the other drivers. I don't like breaking the law, and I don't care to get ticketed for it. I don't think I'll try to do that again.

Personally I think that bicycles have the advantage in traffic because we generally are out of the traffic and can maintain a good clip, most of the time. We shouldn't need to break laws to maintain that advantage.

I'm curious how lsits tries to trigger the signal with the bike. I just don't think I weigh enough, even if I jumped up and down on the bike.

It's not about weight. All the sensors in my area are tripped by metal. If you can find the outline of the sinsor (usually a circle) just stop with your chainring directly over the perimeter. It works about 90% of the time.

I try to blow through as many intersections as humanly possible.

Yay! Crusty! Fixies don't wanna stop!


I try to blow through as many intersections as humanly possible.

"The only law I obey is the law of conservation of momentum."

*ducks*

I often treat stop signs as yeilds, but ALL stoplights are treated as stop. I wont run one for any reason.

Given on one particular intersection on my ride home I did sit for about 15 mins until a car managed to trip the sensor...for some reaosn my bike couldnt, and the crosswalk button wasnt working. It may sweem foolish to wait that long, but I would rather have people see something this silly then not see me at all until I'm their new hood ornament.

I've thought about that and my conclusion is this: the state law here indicates that bikes have the rights and responsibilities of cars, but must travel on the right side of the lane. I believe this includes the shoulder. I don't see that that creates any exception to obeying traffic lights. I think I would be upset if a car pulled over to the shoulder and then jumped through a red light. If I don't want cars doing it, then I shouldn't do it.

It is illegal for a car to bypass an intersection that way here so you are probably right. It kind of stinks though, because if I am forced to use the shoulder or the worst part of the lane according to the law, I should get some perk since if I am on the shoulder it is perfectly safe to pass the light there (barring stupid drivers but stupid drivers are everywhere and not just at stoplights). Incidentally I will stop for these lights and have never had another cyclist stop and wait. They without fail continue through.

Granted it's more convenient not to slow down and any person with adequate skill on a bike can do this but the bigger question is, should we be doing this?


Depends on the situation. Since we're providing the vehicle power, coming to a full stop is a major PITA. (especially on a hill) If there's traffic in the area, then courtesy demands that you follow the rules. If there's no traffic in the area then just use reasonable caution. Rules exist to encourage caution, courtesy and to reduce interpersonal friction, not to make us completely moronic, passive and blindly obedient. Use your head.

bkr

<--- Read what my avatar says.
Say, that would make a great bumper sticker (if it isn't already), I wonder where you could get one.
("Same rights, Same Rules, etc.")

Say, that would make a great bumper sticker (if it isn't already), I wonder where you could get one.
("Same rights, Same Rules, etc.")
http://www.lmb.org/sale.htm

I always yield to whoever has the right of way, but don't feel any need to stop if the intersection I am approaching is a 4 way and there is no car waiting. As for stop lights, if there aren't any cars approaching I wont stop either. I am exercise caution while riding my bike, I don't want to end up on the pavement. I also don't naturally assume that a car will see me at a 4 way and stop, because many times people are oblivious to what is going on around them while driving. I commute year round and haven't had a problem, non-self-induced accident yet *knock on wood*.

Phil

NE one think I would be able to get away with pleading ignorance if I got pulled over?

"Sorry officer, I don't have my License yet, I didn't know I had to stop there"

"Son it's the Law"

"K"

Yeah I don't think so.

NE one think I would be able to get away with pleading ignorance if I got pulled over?



Yeah I don't think so.
Are you really that lazy to hit one extra key and type Any?

Are you really that lazy to hit one extra key and type Any?

I was just trying to fit in using American English Internet Forums vernacular.

I wouldnt call that any kind of proper internet speech. NE and R U are things kids developed to sound cool.

1337 (aka leet) speak is something entirely different, and at one time actually had a legitimate purpose and is part of the history of the internet. True leet speak is actually a subsitution code where proper spelling can be interchanged with phonetics instead...for example 3 is e, 1 is l, and 7 is t....but 1 could also be i...none of it is static, and that was how it was intended to be. However, it's use has been outlived and the only people who use it are either using it mockingly or are again kids trying to act cool.

Or it might have something to do with mocking the english spelling system, really you could spell the word fish as ghoti (gh as in tough O as in women, TI as in Nation)*. I guess what I am trying to say is that it shouldn't really matter what word or spellings are used as long as the general idea is properly expressed, which I believe it was. I doubt anybody got confused...


http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhat04.html

I have been rear ended in a car for stopping right-on-red. I have had a Sac PD car lock up his brakes because I slowed on a red in right hand turn lane (imagine that) and he wasn't going to. Drivers asume we will not stop, most of them don't. As long as that is true I will continue to ride slowly through intersection at my descretion because I would rather recieve a ticket for not stopping than get run over while stopped.
As for moving through an intersection: too many lights do not recognize bikes, they are malfunctioning according to US law. Legally we are supposed to stop and wait for the light to cycle through. This supposes that the light will cycle through. I choose to ignore the lights I know to ignore me and ride the intersection based on actual traffic.

Trevor

It's nice to see all the detailed answers and opinions expressed. Although, I'm a simple kind of guy and my comment will be as follows:
Use common sense.

I was just trying to fit in using American English Internet Forums vernacular.
Well don't it just makes you look stupid (which I'm pretty sure you're not) in addition to being outside Forum Guidelines. We tend to take pride in our little corner of the net and try to maintain some credibility around here which is hard to do with sophmoric AOL'ese running rampant
Disruption... Posts which intend to disrupt the topic of conversation or steer the topic away from the focus of the forum and related news. Disruption can include harassment, multiple user profiles, multiple posting of the same post and posting completely off topic messages. Please do your best when it comes to grammar, punctuation and spelling. Consistent use of "AOL'ese" and "hAx0r" talk can be very disruptive. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=22263&highlight=guidelines

I've had a few close ones from my refusal to run lights, but the way I see it, if we are to ever be accepted as legitimate traffic in the eyes of the masses, we have to follow certain rules...the biggest being traffic lights...if it doesnt turn red, dont cross it, just do a legal right turn and loop around somewhere up the way.

...at least it's better than possibly being clipped by some foreigner who doesnt understand that the law says lights on after dark (another one of my pet peeves as a driver...people who don't turn on their lights, even after being told about it...

I apologize, I guess I spend most of my time on the SS/FG forum where people are a little more liberal with their words...

Phil



Well don't it just makes you look stupid (which I'm pretty sure you're not) in addition to being outside Forum Guidelines. We tend to take pride in our little corner of the net and try to maintain some credibility around here which is hard to do with sophmoric AOL'ese running rampant
Disruption... Posts which intend to disrupt the topic of conversation or steer the topic away from the focus of the forum and related news. Disruption can include harassment, multiple user profiles, multiple posting of the same post and posting completely off topic messages. Please do your best when it comes to grammar, punctuation and spelling. Consistent use of "AOL'ese" and "hAx0r" talk can be very disruptive. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=22263&highlight=guidelines

I find that stopping at all stoplights and stop signs gives me a better chance to scan effectively for crossing traffic. That includes not only cars, but also cyclists and pedestrians. I think that absolute obedience toi the law makes everyone safer.

Also, if I were to use one set of rules when cycling and one when driving, I suspect that my driving would become less safe. Best to always use the same rule when using a road to maintain good habit patterns. As it is, I'd feel really guilty if I blew a stop sign on a deserted street at 2 am -- and I think that is a good thing to reinforce.

Paul