Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Help The Historian with his Brooks

Ok, despite being advised that "one sweaty 50 mile ride and it's yours", the Brooks B-66 remains as hard as a rock. And 12 hours after finishing the ride, I'm not. It's not numbness, but there's certainly less feeling in the area 'down there.'

I have a two week 700 mile tour scheduled in little more than two weeks. I'm starting to panic. Folks, how long does a Brooks take to 'soften?' And if it does, will I then avoid the reduced blood flow I'm suffering? Is it just a matter of my getting acclimated to longer rides again?

I've had the b66, b67 and b17, they never do 'soften' up. I would try tilting the seat a bit forward. I never had a numbness issue.

Are you using padded shorts?

You might consider one of Sheldon's ideas on leather saddle treatment.

http://sheldonbrown.com/leather.html

I tend to agree with Mazama on this one......I , at 265#, have never had an issue with "breaking in" a Brooks.....you DO have to have it positioned correctly or you will definitely have issues......but once you find the sweetspot, you'll never go back.....imho, of course ;^)

....some want the saddle to form to their butt....and that's fine, takes quite a while....several hundred to several thousand miles........but I and others prefer a "platform" type of fit....where it "fits" right out of the box, based on positioning....

Clear as mud?

I have come to the understanding that saddles only do so much to adjust to us, and it is each our own ability to adjust to them that allows us to be comfortable with a specific saddle.

I have come to the understanding that saddles only do so much to adjust to us, and it is each our own ability to adjust to them that allows us to be comfortable with a specific saddle.

Same conclusion for me.

Imperfect butts will never find the perfect saddle.

I've had the b66, b67 and b17, they never do 'soften' up. I would try tilting the seat a bit forward. I never had a numbness issue.

Are you using padded shorts?

Yes, I am using padded shorts.

By tilting the seat forward, do you mean lowering or raising the nose? The recommended position is with the nose up to force the rider back on his sit bones, but I found that a little uncomfortable on short rides, which means I'd find it more so on longer ones. I'd lowered it and thought I'd found the sweet spot, but it appears not so sweet. I was definitely riding on soft tissue during the ride, and kept 'scooting back' on the saddle so I was riding on my sit bones.

Is sliding the saddle forward a possibility?

Worse comes to worse, I suppose I can use the saddle I used last year, the 59 buck Serfas RX Gel. Even though I was very saddle-sore and chafed by the tour end, blood flow was 'normal' to the region. (When I woke up each morning, I found I had an extra tent-pole. Moderators, can I say that? :-))

Yeah, tilt it down a bit, especially if you are bent over riding. How you ride; upright, bent, drops, etc? would be a big factor.

Yes, I am using padded shorts.

By tilting the seat forward, do you mean lowering or raising the nose? The recommended position is with the nose up to force the rider back on his sit bones, but I found that a little uncomfortable on short rides, which means I'd find it more so on longer ones. I'd lowered it and thought I'd found the sweet spot, but it appears not so sweet. I was definitely riding on soft tissue during the ride, and kept 'scooting back' on the saddle so I was riding on my sit bones.

Is sliding the saddle forward a possibility?

Worse comes to worse, I suppose I can use the saddle I used last year, the 59 buck Serfas RX Gel. Even though I was very saddle-sore and chafed by the tour end, blood flow was 'normal' to the region. (When I woke up each morning, I found I had an extra tent-pole. Moderators, can I say that? :-))

Historian, I think you're getting it. First, I don't think there's any sense to having the saddle force you to be anywhere that isn't natural. Your legs have a certain inherent geometry, and with some freedom, your butt wants to be in a certain place relative to the pedals. It's up to us to place the saddle so it supports you in that position. The place where it's normal to be supported is on your sit bones, not soft tissue. If you're too far forward on the saddle you'll be supported by your soft tissue. If you're too far back you'll have chafing in non-mentionable places.

"Tilting Forward" refers to lowering the nose. I tend to adjust my own saddle nose down, scooching in just the smallest increment at a time. I actually measured (being an engineer,) and got less than a degree per change. If you lower it too far, you tend to fall down the slope, and be too far forward. If the nose is too high, you get too much pressure again on soft tissues.

I like to lower the nose just enough to reduce perineal pressure, and move the saddle forward (slide it on its rails) to get the wide part of the saddle under your sit-bones.

So yes, you can slide the saddle forward or back, and it might help you.

This issue is usually position. Move your saddle forward about a 1/4 inch, then level the saddle, placing the level on the back edge and on the highest part of the nose. Ride and make further adjustments in micro increments. If your seatpost does not allow micro increments, get a better seatpost.

Just to add to the chorus, the Brooks will not soften though it will form to you a little...

There is a possibility depending on how upright your riding position is, and the width of your sit bones that you should go with a different width Brooks. How is the width of the brooks compared to the saddle you have used?

Yeah, tilt it down a bit, especially if you are bent over riding. How you ride; upright, bent, drops, etc? would be a big factor.

Relatively upright. Saddle height is slightly above the handlebars.

Mine felt 'right' straight away, but I've found if it slips back slightly I feel much less comfortable (after a while I feel like I'm sitting on soft tissue, not sit bones). I'd try sliding it forward slightly - probably only need a few mm.

I do need to find a better seatpost to stop it doing that.

I'm not terribly experienced in these matters, but when I was finding the "sweet spot" for my brooks, It took a while. I ended up with the seat in a slightly nose down attitude, which meant I had to slide the seat forward just a little so I did not feel like I was sliding forward while I was riding. I do about 20 miles a day, four or five days a week for an average. No bike shorts. No problems at all. It did seem to take a little more effort to find the right adjustment than the seat that came on the bike did. I'm glad I made the effort. I would never switch back.

Relatively upright. Saddle height is slightly above the handlebars.

That saddle is for seriously upright. Does it feel like your thigh bones are being levered out of their hip sockets? That's what it was like for me.

You may need a different saddle. Ever try a B17?

How are things going after adjustments?

How are things going after adjustments?

Mine or the bike's? :-)

I went for what was intended as a recovery ride and test of the new saddle position, and instead turned into a 20 mile photography expedition, then a race to my car before the thunderstorm hit. I felt less discomfort with the saddle nose RAISED slightly and the saddle moved forward as far as it will go. I still felt some irritation in the, ahem, but I think that's from yesterday. It's pretty sore and I'm pretty chafed, particularly where the leg meets the buttock.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3627/3561875234_16fed7c4cd_b.jpg

The only drawback is that the saddle now feels too high for me when mounting and dismounting. (Please guys, no posts telling me I need a higher saddle position or suggesting 'workarounds' for my structural problems.) As much as my knees like it, I'll have to bring it down slightly so I can get on and off the bike.

Just to add to the chorus, the Brooks will not soften though it will form to you a little...

There is a possibility depending on how upright your riding position is, and the width of your sit bones that you should go with a different width Brooks. How is the width of the brooks compared to the saddle you have used?

The Brooks is wider in the back.

That saddle is for seriously upright. Does it feel like your thigh bones are being levered out of their hip sockets? That's what it was like for me.

You may need a different saddle. Ever try a B17?

No, I've never tried a B17. My thighs are chafed, but that happens with every saddle.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3342/3561105599_b6dfe18d72_b.jpg

Humpf! Maybe raising the handlebars would help?

Keep tinkering with it.

Here's my position during the ride, about when the saddle began to bother my, ahem, you know.

http://www.oleyvalley.net/photos/cheesesteak4.jpg

http://www.oleyvalley.net/photos/cheesesteak5.jpg

I do think Brooks saddles change over time*... but the process is likely to be slow unless you use an "accelerant". You have chosen a 210mm wide Brooks, which is very wide. B-17s are 170mm which is still wide. What's more, the springs may cause the saddle to float around under you causing the chafing... My guess based on the area of chafing you report, is that the B-66 is too wide for you.

*Agreed that they will only change "so much" though.

I do think Brooks saddles change over time*... but the process is likely to be slow unless you use an "accelerant". You have chosen a 210mm wide Brooks, which is very wide. B-17s are 170mm which is still wide. What's more, the springs may cause the saddle to float around under you causing the chafing... My guess based on the area of chafing you report, is that the B-66 is too wide for you.

I would tend to agree...the sides of that saddle are flexing out on him and causing chaffing - you can even see it in the pics. The B66 may be too wide, but it might be corrected by lacing the saddle to prevent the sides from flexing outward.

Neil, I think you would have been better off with an Imperial myself...narrow as a B17, already laced, has a perineual cut out.

Finally, lowering a saddle a skosh isn't a sin...adjust it for your comfort, not to someone else's idea of proper position.

I would tend to agree...the sides of that saddle are flexing out on him and causing chaffing - you can even see it in the pics. The B66 may be too wide, but it might be corrected by lacing the saddle to prevent the sides from flexing outward.

Neil, I think you would have been better off with an Imperial myself...narrow as a B17, already laced, has a perineual cut out.

Finally, lowering a saddle a skosh isn't a sin...adjust it for your comfort, not to someone else's idea of proper position.

I see the Imperial is 145 bucks at Wallingford. Sigh. It's never cheap, is it? :(

I have a brooks and keep it to remind me of the PITA it was now I ride a cheap seat called a cloud nine and love it YES even on LONG rides . A Brooks is just not for everyone IMHO.

I have a brooks and keep it to remind me of the PITA it was now I ride a cheap seat called a cloud nine and love it YES even on LONG rides . A Brooks is just not for everyone IMHO.

Is it a B17? I might be able to help relieve you of that PITA. :)

I see the Imperial is 145 bucks at Wallingford. Sigh. It's never cheap, is it? :(

The Imperial is, in my experience, more likely to be comfortable right out of the box than the B-17. Also, they only come in black. Perhaps you can return your B-66?

The Imperial is, in my experience, more likely to be comfortable right out of the box than the B-17. Also, they only come in black. Perhaps you can return your B-66?

It was a gift. :(

The B-17 Imperial is, IMO, worth every penny. I was lucky enough to get in on the test batch, and I have thousands of miles on mine now. I won't switch to any other saddle for long distance riding.

It was a gift. :(

Well... there's always regifting? Or offload it on evilbay to partly fund an Imperial? :) Here's a pic of one, FYI.

Regift! Hint, hint :)

I see the Imperial is 145 bucks at Wallingford. Sigh. It's never cheap, is it? :(

Mine was free. :D

Mine was free. :D

We don't all have Sugar Daddies, Chip:roflmao2:

We don't all have Sugar Daddies, Chip:roflmao2:

well actually, a lot of us did...twern't our fault your butt wasn't considered worthy. Eat more donuts! :D

I see the Imperial is 145 bucks at Wallingford. Sigh. It's never cheap, is it? :(

Based on your pictures, I'd stay with the B66 for that riding position. I see your back as very upright, even though your handlebar is level with your saddle or nearly so. I don't think you're leaning forward enough for a B17.

I'd also tilt the saddle so the nose is angled up half as much as in Post #9. When you sit on a sprung saddle like that the springs in the rear compress more than the one in front, exaggerating the nose-up that we see in that picture. If you can stand to try it, tilt it so the top edge of the narrow front portion (sometimes called the horn) is level. This should make a significant improvement is "ahem" pressure and possible numbness.

The spring compression also lowers your position relative to the unloaded saddle. This makes the even 'bar position function as if it were raised. That's why your back is so straight even though you have an even 'bar position. I wouldn't change your saddle or handlebar heights, just tilt that saddle so that the front section is level, or nearly so. If you find yourself sliding down after this, the saddle is either tilted down too far for you, or the saddle needs to be slid forward on its rails, as the same angle.

Remember, your weight will have the effect of tilting the saddle nose-up when you sit on it.

After trying that see if thigh chafing is reduced. I'm not too clear on whether that is a severe problem for you, but the change I'm suggesting will change everything down under.

I don't see a B17 Imperial helping you, since I don't see the shape of a B17 being right for your riding position. Save your $$$, you still haven't fully exploited the saddle you have.

well actually, a lot of us did...twern't our fault your butt wasn't considered worthy. Eat more donuts! :D

Yea, I missed out on the whole trial thing for those. Alas, my 20+ yr old B17 on my tourer and I get along splendidly..

Yea, I missed out on the whole trial thing for those. Alas, my 20+ yr old B17 on my tourer and I get along splendidly..

Seriously, the Imperial isn't any more comfy for me than my B17s, but for some that cutout makes a difference.

as an aside, I can see from the first photo you posted why you have said you can't find clipless that work for you.

The subject of saddles, and especially Brooks saddles come up a lot on BF. Here is my 2-cents.

Brooks do not work for everyone. I had the exact same issues that you have with a B17. I could not imagine trying a B66. They are the right width in the back, but there is way too much "saddle" between the rear of the saddle and the nose.

I prefer a very firm saddle that is wide in the back and very narrow in the front, and has a cut-out between the two. Saddle brands that I've found really work for me include Specialized Body Geometry (Avatar and Alias) and Terry (Liberator and Fly) brands. I also prefer leather over any synthetic.

I also think that you should try a narrower saddle, just to see how it feels. It seems counter-intuitive, but if the rear of the saddle holds your weight on hip/seat bones, then the narrower the rest of the saddle is the better. Most of the discomfort that you seem to be having is chafing and mashing in the middle. Both can be caused by having a big saddle pushing your flesh towards the middle of your body.

See if your local bike shop has some saddles laying around that you can try out. People often switch-out their saddles on new bikes, and lots of bike shops have a stockpile of them in the back. Many bike shops will let you try out a few, if you promise to buy the one you like from them.

Good luck!

If you want to try some saddles, I still have five/six left from my 20 plus I went thru. I can drop off the box some time. All synthetic covers. No fancy names.

Have you oiled the saddle? Try that.

Does the saddle have a tension adjustment?

I'm glad you tipped the nose up. That's what I would recommend. When I see a saddle tipped down, I find I'm usually looking at a mis-adjusted bike.

Some soreness should be expected at the sit bones. Those are the two bones in back. On a bike seat, your weight is divided between these two plus your pubic bone. You can find your public bone right behind your scrotum. Anyway, riding a few days on your new saddle can create some soreness at these three points, and the muscles around them will toughen up in time.

If your genitals themselves are sore, something is wrong, and you should correct it. You may want to explore a bit. This could be tricky if you're overweight. Get naked. Squat so that your butt is near the floor. Hold onto something firm with one hand and explore your nether region with your other hand. Feel around to find your sorest points. If they're right near the three bones I mentioned, it's probably a sign that you are breaking in your butt properly. Give it time. Try to ride at least every three days. If you can only ride once a week, that may suffice, but the toughness you build up can be lost if you don't ride frequently enough.


After your exploration, wash your hands. :lol:

OK, ever since I stepped up the mileage on the Brooks, I've been having problems. And now I'm showing signs of what appears to be a urinary tract infection - foul-smelling urine, a burning sensation when I urinate ( and sometimes when I don't) , etc. At least I hope it's a UTI - the alternative explanation is prostate trouble. Until I can get to my doctor, I'm drinking tons of water, taking cranberry extract, and avoiding soda, coffee, and (GULP!) tea. (Since doing so, the foul smell in my urine has lessened, but the burning sensation still comes and goes.)

I'm scheduled for a metric century on Saturday, and two shorter rides Sunday. Should I do them? I rode 24 miles today with no more discomfort than I had when sitting in an office chair. Should I switch back to one of the other ass-hatchet saddles I've used?

Good luck! I can't give advice. My wife gets UTI's often, unfortunately. She drinks plain cranberry juice with no sweeteners or other additives. Check your health food store. There are a few brands. I can't touch the stuff, because it's so tart. It doesn't bother her.

I'd agree with lowering the saddle. If the saddle's "wings" are still chafing you, you could consider lacing the saddle (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=148421). (Hey, it's a free saddle, why not?)

It should be easier to replace the saddle than to lace it. Maybe this saddle is just not right for you. It's nice to think that the expensive type that gets tons of accolades is right, but it may not be. The Italian style saddle is also pretty popular. I'm talking about the nylon shell with padding on top and a cloth covering.

Also, as you lose weight, the pressure on the three pressure points will reduce, so this becomes a less critical problem over time.

OK, ever since I stepped up the mileage on the Brooks, I've been having problems. And now I'm showing signs of what appears to be a urinary tract infection - foul-smelling urine, a burning sensation when I urinate ( and sometimes when I don't) , etc. At least I hope it's a UTI - the alternative explanation is prostate trouble. Until I can get to my doctor, I'm drinking tons of water, taking cranberry extract, and avoiding soda, coffee, and (GULP!) tea. (Since doing so, the foul smell in my urine has lessened, but the burning sensation still comes and goes.)

I'm scheduled for a metric century on Saturday, and two shorter rides Sunday. Should I do them? I rode 24 miles today with no more discomfort than I had when sitting in an office chair. Should I switch back to one of the other ass-hatchet saddles I've used?

Knock on wood, I don't have any medical issues down there, but I don't like to play with any medical issues. Right now I'd see your choices as don't do the ride, cause a lot of pain, or try something new. Not a choice: get yourself checked out. I do know several things can cause a change in urinary content.

You have a "something (relatively) new" in hand, which is the B17. Given you think you have medical "clearance," there's really nothing to lose by mounting it up and trying up to an hour on it, paying attention to on-the road angle adjustments (yes, bring your wrenches with you).

I would not ride that long distance with high discomfort and a potential issue on the B66 right now. If you find another saddle is a source of relief, re-assess.

Wanna borrow a recumbent trike for the Pike2Bike on Sunday? :)

I see the Imperial is 145 bucks at Wallingford. Sigh. It's never cheap, is it? :(

A much less expensive alternative is to send the saddle to Monarch-McLaren (http://www.selleanatomica.com/dollar%20buyer.htm). Follow that link and scroll down the page to "Brooks Upgrade Service". They will cut a Selle Anatomica slot in any Brooks saddle and reinforce the underside for 50 bucks. Their turnaround time was about ten days for mine.

I have tried an original Selle Anatomica (very comfortable, but the leather sagged under my prodigious bulk), the B-17 (an absolute torture device for me - felt like I was sitting on the top tube) and a B-17n Imperial (an improvement over the B17). On a "what the hell" whim I sent the B17 to MCM for surgery and I have to say that it is far (by a country mile) far more comfortable than it was originally, and about as comfortable as the original SA. I have only had it for a week, so I don't know if it will suffer the same sagging fate, but I am planning to lace the sides which should prevent that.

I don't know if I would do the metric century until that infection, or whatever, is cleared up either. I would run, swim, or participate in other sports where your body weight does not bear down on the offending spot; but already knowing that it hurts the problem area is an big indicator that riding that long is not such a good idea.

I reiterate that I think that you should try a saddle that is smaller in the front and middle. I used to ride an old Terry Liberator (currently the Terry Y Liberator has the wider dimensions), and while I needed that extra padding at first, it became unbearable on 2+ hour rides. I still have that old saddle on my work commuting bike. I just can't stand to ride a saddle that big on long rides.

AFTER you get your urinary issue cleared up, maybe you should try a narrower saddle with a non-gimmicky center cut-out?