slvoid
06-08-04, 07:54 AM
http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
View Full Version : If we run out of gas, can we make our own biodisel?
Joat
06-08-04, 08:05 AM
Dunno about Biodiesel, but I get about 60 miles to the burger atm...
Pat
06-08-04, 08:13 AM
Well, they talked of converting either used cooking oil or unused cooking oil to diesel fuel. The current US price of cooking oil compared to diesel fuel does not warrent going through the process right now in the USA. However, if you were a really dedicated penny pincher, converting used cooking oil might make sense. I would think that enterprising individuals could obtain used cooking oil for free from local restaurants. On a large scale, it won't happen. There just is not a large enough supply of cooking oil and used cooking oil to power the US auto fleet.
Also, I read through the process and it was pretty messy and the chemicals are caustic and potentially dangerous. Any half way decent chemist could do it. But if this became a popular process, I just bet there would be a rash of interesting industrial accidents.
Also, I read through the process and it was pretty messy and the chemicals are caustic and potentially dangerous. Any half way decent chemist could do it. But if this became a popular process, I just bet there would be a rash of interesting industrial accidents.
slvoid
06-08-04, 08:25 AM
I just bet there would be a rash of interesting industrial accidents.
That would be so cool.
That would be so cool.
khuon
06-08-04, 08:25 AM
Also, I read through the process and it was pretty messy and the chemicals are caustic and potentially dangerous. Any half way decent chemist could do it. But if this became a popular process, I just bet there would be a rash of interesting industrial accidents.
This would be akin to exploding meth labs. Maybe if it got popular enough, all the drug brewers will switch to producing and selling biodiesel. It might not be less dangerous but it's for a better cause. :D
This would be akin to exploding meth labs. Maybe if it got popular enough, all the drug brewers will switch to producing and selling biodiesel. It might not be less dangerous but it's for a better cause. :D
Hunter
06-08-04, 08:37 AM
There is a naturally growing plant that can be converted to fuel, paper, feed, clothing, rope, building materials, requires little to no effort to grow, etc. sad thing is because it is in the same family as a banned contraband you cannot grow or possess it legally.
foehn
06-08-04, 09:07 AM
man. i wish they would legalize that crap and then regulate it so i don't have to be around dope heads but i still get all the other benefits of it. stupid dope heads. *sigh*
And do you realize how much money the government could make off it's legalization? Fees, taxes, etc? And the strength could be controlled. . .plus all the stuff that could be made out of the no-high stuff and the savings in law enforcement--or perhaps that would be shifted elsewhere!
And do you realize how much money the government could make off it's legalization? Fees, taxes, etc? And the strength could be controlled. . .plus all the stuff that could be made out of the no-high stuff and the savings in law enforcement--or perhaps that would be shifted elsewhere!
slvoid
06-08-04, 09:38 AM
And do you realize how much money the government could make off it's legalization? Fees, taxes, etc? And the strength could be controlled. . .plus all the stuff that could be made out of the no-high stuff and the savings in law enforcement--or perhaps that would be shifted elsewhere!
I always wondered if the FBI like, sells $10 million worth of crack to a drug dealer in an undercover sting, takes his money, then next week arrests him, takes the crack back, and then sells it again for $10 million, and it gets repeated ad nauseum with the same barrel of crack.
I always wondered if the FBI like, sells $10 million worth of crack to a drug dealer in an undercover sting, takes his money, then next week arrests him, takes the crack back, and then sells it again for $10 million, and it gets repeated ad nauseum with the same barrel of crack.
Dahon.Steve
06-08-04, 10:14 AM
http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
If we run out of gas?
When this happens, we'll be using hydrogen. Simple right. In the mean time, you'll just have to keep paying higher and higher gas each year. We're not changing anytime soon so get used to the higher prices because the situation is going to get worse for the motorist and homeowner in the next 15 years.
Look at it this way. The price of gas just went down recently so there's no need to be concerned anymore. The motorist is happy and can now make plans for the next SUV purchase. The car-free society like myself are not concered either. Don't worry and be happy. Biodiesel and alternatives will not be considered untill the price of gas is somewhere around $10.00 dollars a gallon.
If we run out of gas?
When this happens, we'll be using hydrogen. Simple right. In the mean time, you'll just have to keep paying higher and higher gas each year. We're not changing anytime soon so get used to the higher prices because the situation is going to get worse for the motorist and homeowner in the next 15 years.
Look at it this way. The price of gas just went down recently so there's no need to be concerned anymore. The motorist is happy and can now make plans for the next SUV purchase. The car-free society like myself are not concered either. Don't worry and be happy. Biodiesel and alternatives will not be considered untill the price of gas is somewhere around $10.00 dollars a gallon.
Seanholio
06-08-04, 10:59 AM
If we run out of gas?
When this happens, we'll be using hydrogen. Simple right. In the mean time, you'll just have to keep paying higher and higher gas each year. We're not changing anytime soon so get used to the higher prices because the situation is going to get worse for the motorist and homeowner in the next 15 years.
Unfortunately, this just plain ain't so. Hydrogen is only a condiut of energy, as it is not readily available. It has to be broken out of molecules which contain it, and then it is ready to provide energy. How do we generate the electricity to break the hydrogen out? Currently most electricity in the US is provided by natural gas, oil, and coal plants.
When the fuel runs out, something other than hydrogen will have to be harvested as the source of energy.
When this happens, we'll be using hydrogen. Simple right. In the mean time, you'll just have to keep paying higher and higher gas each year. We're not changing anytime soon so get used to the higher prices because the situation is going to get worse for the motorist and homeowner in the next 15 years.
Unfortunately, this just plain ain't so. Hydrogen is only a condiut of energy, as it is not readily available. It has to be broken out of molecules which contain it, and then it is ready to provide energy. How do we generate the electricity to break the hydrogen out? Currently most electricity in the US is provided by natural gas, oil, and coal plants.
When the fuel runs out, something other than hydrogen will have to be harvested as the source of energy.
madpogue
06-08-04, 11:23 AM
Actually (and UK folks, please chime in to elaborate / elucidate / correct here...), in some cases it is cheaper to buy "new" vegetable oil than to buy diesel fuel. I read that recently, in the UK, the fuel tax was getting so high that it was cheaper to buy cheap rapeseed (canola) oil than to buy petro-diesel. People were actually "busted" buying it by the bottle and putting it in their petrol (?) tanks. The authorities tried to collect the petrol tax from them. Dunno how the whole thing turned out.
khuon
06-08-04, 12:01 PM
you know... i could probably do that anyway.. but it wouldn't be legal. i need a badge! :D
Badges? Badges? We don't need no...
Ahhh nevermind... getting old. :D
Badges? Badges? We don't need no...
Ahhh nevermind... getting old. :D
slvoid
06-08-04, 12:07 PM
Unfortunately, this just plain ain't so. Hydrogen is only a condiut of energy, as it is not readily available. It has to be broken out of molecules which contain it, and then it is ready to provide energy. How do we generate the electricity to break the hydrogen out? Currently most electricity in the US is provided by natural gas, oil, and coal plants.
When the fuel runs out, something other than hydrogen will have to be harvested as the source of energy.
Can't we just have a solar plant sitting there breaking down those little H's and O's? It's not like it needs to be on 24/7, just whenever there's sunlight and it'll keep storing up those gases.
When the fuel runs out, something other than hydrogen will have to be harvested as the source of energy.
Can't we just have a solar plant sitting there breaking down those little H's and O's? It's not like it needs to be on 24/7, just whenever there's sunlight and it'll keep storing up those gases.
iceratt
06-08-04, 12:22 PM
All this talk, about the the dangers of a meth lab; I just don't get it. My wife says that I produce enough meth to supply the energy needs of our household. I'm not cooperative, though. She ain't getting close to me with that hose!
madpogue
06-08-04, 12:32 PM
what is that from anyway? It's from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, by John Huston, starring Walter Huston (John Huston's father) and Humphrey Bogart. The exact line is from a Mexican character who says (according to http://www.imdb.com ): "Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges."
Ohio Trekker
06-08-04, 12:34 PM
The article I read last week mentioned a company that sells actual conversions for diesel engines. The vehicle starts with regular diesel because the grease is to viscous until heated, once the vehicle starts and produces enough heat through an exchanger to thin out the cooking oil, a switch is flipped and the engine runs off the cooking oil. Before you park for long periods of time you flip the switch back to purge the cooking oil from the engine and the diesel is ready for tne next start. The people who use the cooking oil are charged with heating it enough to remove excess water, and filtering it to remove burned food particles before putting it in the oil tank of their vehicle. The cost of the conversion is $850. Those who use the used cooking oil have found restaurants more than happy to give them the oil, since typically a restaurant pays $40 or more per month to have it removed.
The problem with the whole system is that the government would have to get involved to do it on a larger scale as happens in some areas, in particular when they talk about bio-diesel which is often not a staight cooking oil fuel as above, but rather a mixture of cooking oil with diesel. The only advantage is that you would need no conversion upfront, although at today's prices the conversion mentioned above would pay for itself pretty fast. There is an interesting article http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/biodiesel010523.html where the cost of bio-diesel is quoted as being "three times" as expensive as regular diesel. Give me a break. I particularly love the part of the article where they say the black sooty exhaust is replaced with a lighter exhaust that smells of french fries. The "Government" problem and hence expense is looking at it as a cleaner burning fuel that is better for the enviroment as opposed to an alternate fuel. I'm sure it won't be long before the government starts getting worried about taxing people for using cooking oil in their diesels. Heaven forbid we should miss the chance to tax someone for not conforming with the existing tax structure.
As for it being an alternate fuel, there just wouldn't be enough of it to go around.
The problem with the whole system is that the government would have to get involved to do it on a larger scale as happens in some areas, in particular when they talk about bio-diesel which is often not a staight cooking oil fuel as above, but rather a mixture of cooking oil with diesel. The only advantage is that you would need no conversion upfront, although at today's prices the conversion mentioned above would pay for itself pretty fast. There is an interesting article http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/biodiesel010523.html where the cost of bio-diesel is quoted as being "three times" as expensive as regular diesel. Give me a break. I particularly love the part of the article where they say the black sooty exhaust is replaced with a lighter exhaust that smells of french fries. The "Government" problem and hence expense is looking at it as a cleaner burning fuel that is better for the enviroment as opposed to an alternate fuel. I'm sure it won't be long before the government starts getting worried about taxing people for using cooking oil in their diesels. Heaven forbid we should miss the chance to tax someone for not conforming with the existing tax structure.
As for it being an alternate fuel, there just wouldn't be enough of it to go around.
foehn
06-08-04, 01:40 PM
I always wondered if the FBI like, sells $10 million worth of crack to a drug dealer in an undercover sting, takes his money, then next week arrests him, takes the crack back, and then sells it again for $10 million, and it gets repeated ad nauseum with the same barrel of crack.
You might have a point there. If the FBI is making beaucoup bucks, they might not want to legalize - all that money would dry up. . .So where did they get the money in the first place; once they have made back their initial "investment" do they (the FBI, in this case) get to keep for their own organization's use?
You might have a point there. If the FBI is making beaucoup bucks, they might not want to legalize - all that money would dry up. . .So where did they get the money in the first place; once they have made back their initial "investment" do they (the FBI, in this case) get to keep for their own organization's use?
ngateguy
06-08-04, 01:59 PM
It's from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, by John Huston, starring Walter Huston (John Huston's father) and Humphrey Bogart. The exact line is from a Mexican character who says (according to http://www.imdb.com ): "Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges."
Also used By John Belushi in "Going South"
On the mater of hemp it needs to stop being compared to its other more toxic :D brother
The only way to get high of odf smoking hemp is to hyper ventilate
Also used By John Belushi in "Going South"
On the mater of hemp it needs to stop being compared to its other more toxic :D brother
The only way to get high of odf smoking hemp is to hyper ventilate
Seanholio
06-08-04, 02:34 PM
Can't we just have a solar plant sitting there breaking down those little H's and O's? It's not like it needs to be on 24/7, just whenever there's sunlight and it'll keep storing up those gases.
The efficiency of solar plants isn't high enough to provide sufficient quantities of H2 and O2 for all the drivers who will want it. Solar farms are not terribly efficient, ATM. IIRC the high-efficiency solar panels available right now are about 5% efficient at converting sunlight into electricity.
The efficiency of solar plants isn't high enough to provide sufficient quantities of H2 and O2 for all the drivers who will want it. Solar farms are not terribly efficient, ATM. IIRC the high-efficiency solar panels available right now are about 5% efficient at converting sunlight into electricity.
slvoid
06-08-04, 02:49 PM
The efficiency of solar plants isn't high enough to provide sufficient quantities of H2 and O2 for all the drivers who will want it. Solar farms are not terribly efficient, ATM. IIRC the high-efficiency solar panels available right now are about 5% efficient at converting sunlight into electricity.
I thought current panels were approaching 20%. Solar collectors can also funnel heat energy to produce electricity. I remember people in countries using tinfoil to boil water.
I thought current panels were approaching 20%. Solar collectors can also funnel heat energy to produce electricity. I remember people in countries using tinfoil to boil water.
HalfHearted
06-08-04, 05:31 PM
I thought current panels were approaching 20%. Solar collectors can also funnel heat energy to produce electricity. I remember people in countries using tinfoil to boil water.
Boiling an open pot of water doesn't take much energy - generating steam under high pressure to run a turbine requires gobs of energy.
Boiling an open pot of water doesn't take much energy - generating steam under high pressure to run a turbine requires gobs of energy.
roadbuzz
06-08-04, 07:34 PM
Odd thing is, when Rudolf Diesel designed the diesel engine, I believe he intended it to run off some other kind of oil (vegetable? whale?), but petroleum was becoming fairly common at the time, and when he found that, um, diesel oil worked well, optimized his design to use that.
DieselDan
06-08-04, 08:16 PM
Diesel did intend for his engine to use vegtable oil. Later engineers discovered that a thin mineral oil would burn more effecently, and named it for the engine's inventor.
slvoid
06-08-04, 09:28 PM
Boiling an open pot of water doesn't take much energy - generating steam under high pressure to run a turbine requires gobs of energy.
I remember powerplants using solar focusing mirrors powerful enough to drive megawatt turbines using liquid sodium metal.
Check this out for more info: http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/s/so/solar_power.html
I remember powerplants using solar focusing mirrors powerful enough to drive megawatt turbines using liquid sodium metal.
Check this out for more info: http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/s/so/solar_power.html
Hunter
06-08-04, 10:46 PM
man. i wish they would legalize that crap and then regulate it so i don't have to be around dope heads but i still get all the other benefits of it. stupid dope heads. *sigh*
I am not talking about Marijuana, I am talking about Hemp. Hemp is the useful plant. Like I said it is in the family of.......
I am not talking about Marijuana, I am talking about Hemp. Hemp is the useful plant. Like I said it is in the family of.......
ngateguy
06-08-04, 10:56 PM
I am not talking about Marijuana, I am talking about Hemp. Hemp is the useful plant. Like I said it is in the family of.......
Same family as hops another useful plant
:beer:
Same family as hops another useful plant
:beer:
Pat
06-09-04, 01:40 AM
Also used By John Belushi in "Going South"
On the mater of hemp it needs to stop being compared to its other more toxic :D brother
The only way to get high of odf smoking hemp is to hyper ventilate
Well, the original is from "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" which was far earlier then John Belushi movies.
On the mater of hemp it needs to stop being compared to its other more toxic :D brother
The only way to get high of odf smoking hemp is to hyper ventilate
Well, the original is from "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" which was far earlier then John Belushi movies.
madpogue
06-09-04, 12:03 PM
Also used By John Belushi in "Going South" Well, it's been used gazillions of times in various forms since Treasure. But Treasure (1947) was where it was "coined".
On the mater of hemp it needs to stop being compared to its other more toxic :D brother
The only way to get high of odf smoking hemp is to hyper ventilate Yeah, the real reason hemp is illegal is that it's a threat to many corporate industries that are vigorously protected by governments made up, in great part, of people hired from (and, often, eventually returning to) those industries.
On the mater of hemp it needs to stop being compared to its other more toxic :D brother
The only way to get high of odf smoking hemp is to hyper ventilate Yeah, the real reason hemp is illegal is that it's a threat to many corporate industries that are vigorously protected by governments made up, in great part, of people hired from (and, often, eventually returning to) those industries.
John E
06-09-04, 12:21 PM
In 1880, in his "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" sequel, "Mysterious Island," Jules Verne forecast a post-coal hydrogen-based energy economy. One of his characters, an engineer, says, "Water, my friends. Yes, water, the hydrogen and oxygen which comprise it, either separately or together, will one day furnish mankind with an inexhaustible supply of heat and light." Of course, this also fails to acknowledge hydrogen's role as an energy storage and transfer medium that has to be generated using some other primary energy source.
The most likely fossil successor to petroleum is coal, with which the U.S. and Russia are heavily endowed.
The most likely fossil successor to petroleum is coal, with which the U.S. and Russia are heavily endowed.
LittleBigMan
06-09-04, 02:20 PM
Back in the 1970's (during the "oil crisis,") I remember living in Brisbane, Australia. My father, a microbiologist, was teaching at the University there.
We visited a colleague of his (he knew many scientists around the world) near the Gold Coast. I remember this colleague's passionate discussion about his process to convert corn into fuel by bacteria.
The bottom line: there was no way the oil companies would allow it.
Somehow, I believe it...
We visited a colleague of his (he knew many scientists around the world) near the Gold Coast. I remember this colleague's passionate discussion about his process to convert corn into fuel by bacteria.
The bottom line: there was no way the oil companies would allow it.
Somehow, I believe it...
Bobatin
06-09-04, 07:50 PM
The vehicle starts with regular diesel because the grease is to viscous until heated, once the vehicle starts and produces enough heat through an exchanger to thin out the cooking oil, a switch is flipped and the engine runs off the cooking oil. Before you park for long periods of time you flip the switch back to purge the cooking oil from the engine and the diesel is ready for tne next start. The people who use the cooking oil are charged with heating it enough to remove excess water, and filtering it to remove burned food particles before putting it in the oil tank of their vehicle. The cost of the conversion is $850. Those who use the used cooking oil have found restaurants more than happy to give them the oil, since typically a restaurant pays $40 or more per month to have it removed.
This is what one of the guys at work does with a diesel VW. He gets the oil from McD for free and pours it through a filter before putting it in the tank. It works fine.
This is what one of the guys at work does with a diesel VW. He gets the oil from McD for free and pours it through a filter before putting it in the tank. It works fine.
Dahon.Steve
06-10-04, 03:25 PM
Unfortunately, this just plain ain't so. Hydrogen is only a condiut of energy, as it is not readily available. It has to be broken out of molecules which contain it, and then it is ready to provide energy. How do we generate the electricity to break the hydrogen out? Currently most electricity in the US is provided by natural gas, oil, and coal plants.
When the fuel runs out, something other than hydrogen will have to be harvested as the source of energy.
Exactly... Trust me. When the time comes, we'll burn coal by the trainloads so those hydrogen powered SUVs' of the future can continue rolling. Our government will have no problem buring tons of coal when the remaining supply of oil is gone. Just make sure you're not living next to one of these coal buring plants running 24/7.
When the fuel runs out, something other than hydrogen will have to be harvested as the source of energy.
Exactly... Trust me. When the time comes, we'll burn coal by the trainloads so those hydrogen powered SUVs' of the future can continue rolling. Our government will have no problem buring tons of coal when the remaining supply of oil is gone. Just make sure you're not living next to one of these coal buring plants running 24/7.
khuon
06-10-04, 03:49 PM
Just make sure you're not living next to one of these coal buring plants running 24/7.
I just heard a story on NPR (yesterday) where they were talking about how scientists decided to conduct some air quality tests during the recent East Coast Blackout to see what effect having all the coal burning powerplants across the eastern sector of the USA turned off would do. They reported dramatic increases in air quality... like by a factour of ten.
I just heard a story on NPR (yesterday) where they were talking about how scientists decided to conduct some air quality tests during the recent East Coast Blackout to see what effect having all the coal burning powerplants across the eastern sector of the USA turned off would do. They reported dramatic increases in air quality... like by a factour of ten.
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