Living Car Free - I should of been car-free from the start

I've had car payments and insurance so long I could of owned out right 2 homes and a fat nest egg. I figure I spend money on cars to get better jobs that didn't cover the whole expense of the cars. My 4 kids have been preached to for years that cars are an economic tool to be used wisely, if you don't need one save your money. Chime in with opinions ,please .

I'm just a kid who drives his dad's pickup, but already it's costing me way too much money. I don't even have to pay for the car or insurance, just gas and, well, speeding tickets... Anyways, when I go off to college I'm taking my bike, but no car. I used to love cars, but when I realized how expensive it is to own one, they weren't so cool anymore.

I don't ever plan on buying a car. With a bike and a bus pass i figure i can get just about anywhere i need to go, no matter how far. Riding bikes way more fun anyways.

I live in California and you might think it would be the perfect place to be car free. But as the OP described there is the job issue. The average commute in California is something like 35 miles. Once you start advancing in the job market that distance seems small. I was car free for 8 years because I rode my motorcycle 24/7 till our son was about 5.

We almost always bought used cars and paid cash. Because of the ability to drive longer distances I managed to earn more and finally took a better paying job only 16 miles from our home.

Did the American dream work for me? Well we put our son through school, retired, sold our vacation home and live in a home that is paid for with two cars that are paid for and insurance that is less than $1000.00 a year. My driving has been reduced by about 66 percent since I retired.

I am not as worried about how much owning a car has cost me over the years as I am about the economy right now. It seems as if we can have done everything right and are still expected to pay for people that did everything wrong.

It seems as if we can have done everything right and are still expected to pay for people that did everything wrong.

Right, anyone's who's suffering "did everything wrong". How about a little poor bashing?

Right, anyone's who's suffering "did everything wrong". How about a little poor bashing?
I understood the post to mean that the frugal now have to support the profligate.

Thanks gwd. I don’t believe there was anything in that post that remotely indicated I was bashing the poor. The increased taxes to pay for bailouts will not go to help the poor unless the poor are getting monster bonuses. I just hate to see 401k turning into 201ks.

I'm just a kid who drives his dad's pickup, but already it's costing me way too much money. I don't even have to pay for the car or insurance, just gas and, well, speeding tickets... Anyways, when I go off to college I'm taking my bike, but no car. I used to love cars, but when I realized how expensive it is to own one, they weren't so cool anymore.

I don't ever plan on buying a car. With a bike and a bus pass i figure i can get just about anywhere i need to go, no matter how far. Riding bikes way more fun anyways.

I wonder what percentage of the younger population shares your views. I often run into young people who seem to understand the high cost of automobile ownership, but that doesn't seem to stop they from wanting a vehicle. It is only if they end up in dense urban situations or where car ownership is a complete drudgery, do they seem to relinquish their hope.

But, as you say, riding bike is way more fun...

Sorry if I misunderstood.

I'm 26 and since I moved out on my own at 18, I've spent approx 25k on cars/parts/maintenence. I'm selling my current car this or next month, and hopefully bringing that down to 20k-ish. Not bad, considering what the average American spends, but still more than I'd like, considering I want to retire in my early 40's.

I suspect the OP must have purchased very expensive cars. To be able to pay off two homes in full and having spent that money on cars is incredible. Lets hope this recession ends the need to lease a new car every four years. It's a circular trap.

I just hate to see 401k turning into 201ks.

I think it's crazy to invest in the stock market. Heck, my 401K didn't recover from the Dot.com crash! LOL!

What's so sad about the situation is the only time we have economic prosperity is when Wall Street creates a bubble. Since we don't have manufacturing to pull us out of recessions, we have to deregulate the market to free up the capital markets so we can create another bubble.

:crash:

I've had around 40 cars in the past 24 years of driving. Everything from Porsches to classic muscle cars not including 5+ motorcycles. Purchase price ,insurance and upkeep does run into big money over time. Wish I would of enjoyed those years and not worked so hard for them.

I suspect the OP must have purchased very expensive cars. To be able to pay off two homes in full and having spent that money on cars is incredible. Lets hope this recession ends the need to lease a new car every four years. It's a circular trap.

With 4 kids, the OP could have easily had a 2 (or 3 or 4 at times) car family.

I suspect the OP must have purchased very expensive cars. To be able to pay off two homes in full and having spent that money on cars is incredible. Lets hope this recession ends the need to lease a new car every four years. It's a circular trap.

Depending on what year the homes were purchased, one could have easily purchased two homes in the 60's and 70's for the price of one of today's luxury car/SUV. Figuring what the wife and I paid on motor vehicles over the years, we could have bought another home at our current one's original purchase price.

I wonder what percentage of the younger population shares your views. I often run into young people who seem to understand the high cost of automobile ownership, but that doesn't seem to stop they from wanting a vehicle. It is only if they end up in dense urban situations or where car ownership is a complete drudgery, do they seem to relinquish their hope.

But, as you say, riding bike is way more fun...

It seems that many young people today are choosing to live in the dense urban situations. That's good, because it means they're less likely to own a car, and probably won't drive it much if they do own one.

It seems that many young people today are choosing to live in the dense urban situations. That's good, because it means they're less likely to own a car, and probably won't drive it much if they do own one.

One question I have is the urban density where automobile ownership is a complete PITA. In one of the NY Times carfree commentaries in another thread, one of the authors talked about a density of roughly 50 persons per acre to make public transportation a paying venture. There must be some density "tipping point" for carfree people.

I also notice that in more heavily populated centers, you see a lot more bicycle and foot traffic.... and it seems to get smaller as a community spreads out. There must be some magical point where a person will say, "Hey, I can easily walk those distances. I don't need a car"... but what is it?

One question I have is the urban density where automobile ownership is a complete PITA. In one of the NY Times carfree commentaries in another thread, one of the authors talked about a density of roughly 50 persons per acre to make public transportation a paying venture. There must be some density "tipping point" for carfree people.

I also notice that in more heavily populated centers, you see a lot more bicycle and foot traffic.... and it seems to get smaller as a community spreads out. There must be some magical point where a person will say, "Hey, I can easily walk those distances. I don't need a car"... but what is it?

That's a good question but I think there are too many variables involved for there to be one answer. Weather, terrain, culture, availability of public transport, and income levels probably all play a significant role. New Orleans, for example, has decent weather 8 or 9 months of the year (mid-May through mid September it's a steamy furnace), is board flat, has a viable streetcar service, a history of a walking/biking culture, and a sizeable working poor population that's not car free completely by choice. The result is a fairly bike/ped friendly city despite a population density of only about 1,000 /km² (pre-K; it's less now).

A comparison of population densities in Manhattan and Portland, two communities with vibrant bike/pedestrian cultures, is also instructive. Almost 26,000/km² in Manhattan vs. only 1,500 /km²in Portland, OR.

[QUOTE=Dahon.Steve;8988692]I think it's crazy to invest in the stock market. Heck, my 401K didn't recover from the Dot.com crash! LOL!

my dentist said to me a long time ago that the stock market is for horseplayers. people just went into the stock market because the rate of money growth in bonds would not set them up for retirement.
personally i think it all went wrong when companies, to cut costs, got rid of pensions and said to the workers buddy your on your own.

[QUOTE=Dahon.Steve;8988692]I think it's crazy to invest in the stock market. Heck, my 401K didn't recover from the Dot.com crash! LOL!

my dentist said to me a long time ago that the stock market is for horseplayers. people just went into the stock market because the rate of money growth in bonds would not set them up for retirement.
personally i think it all went wrong when companies, to cut costs, got rid of pensions and said to the workers buddy your on your own.

I think the whole economic mess was based on a 2 part problem ,stock prices and home values. Stock prices no longer reflected their worth,price to earnings ratio no longer meant anything. Home values going up double digits yearly with people tappinng lines of credit based on poor economic decisions. Everyone trying to keep up with others forgetting common logic.

I might point out that young people are living in urban environments for a simple reason: They're young. When you're 25, you live in a tiny apartment (likely shared) because you can't afford a mortgage and it puts you in close proximity to clubs and bars. When you're 45, you live in suburbia because you have enough money for a house, you have a spouse and kids that need the space, and you're no longer interested in getting hammered every evening.


I wonder what percentage of the younger population shares your views. I often run into young people who seem to understand the high cost of automobile ownership, but that doesn't seem to stop they from wanting a vehicle. .

Reasons Why I Want A Car:

1. I have family all over the country, and a 600 mile bike trip is a bit much.
2. Carrying 100lbs. of crap to a convention is difficult.
3. You're not sweaty, dirty, and winded after a 20-mile car trip.
4. Cars work really well in winter.
5. You can't carry a full-size computer on a bicycle. Especially if you're bringing a monitor.
6. You can drive a car even if you're sick or have sprained something recently.
7. It's a lot harder to steal a car than a bike.
8. You can't wear nice clothing on a bicycle.
9. Cars don't require perpetual maintenance.
10. Cars very rarely have flats.

Reasons why I don't have a car:
1. Initial cost.
2. No place to put it.
3. Cost of insurance.
4. Cost of maintenance.
(I think you get the picture.)


I'm 26 and since I moved out on my own at 18, I've spent approx 25k on cars/parts/maintenence. I'm selling my current car this or next month, and hopefully bringing that down to 20k-ish. Not bad, considering what the average American spends, but still more than I'd like, considering I want to retire in my early 40's.


How on earth do you manage that? That's over $3,000 dollars a year - sans insurance!

[QUOTE=Dahon.Steve;8988692]I think it's crazy to invest in the stock market. Heck, my 401K didn't recover from the Dot.com crash! LOL!

my dentist said to me a long time ago that the stock market is for horseplayers. people just went into the stock market because the rate of money growth in bonds would not set them up for retirement.
personally i think it all went wrong when companies, to cut costs, got rid of pensions and said to the workers buddy your on your own.

Dentist, huh? I usually go to my barber for financial advice, but maybe I should rethink that.

Reasons Why I Want A Car:

1. I have family all over the country, and a 600 mile bike trip is a bit much.
2. Carrying 100lbs. of crap to a convention is difficult.
3. You're not sweaty, dirty, and winded after a 20-mile car trip.
4. Cars work really well in winter.
5. You can't carry a full-size computer on a bicycle. Especially if you're bringing a monitor.
6. You can drive a car even if you're sick or have sprained something recently.
7. It's a lot harder to steal a car than a bike.
8. You can't wear nice clothing on a bicycle.
9. Cars don't require perpetual maintenance.
10. Cars very rarely have flats.



I wouldn't know where to begin with this list...

I might point out that young people are living in urban environments for a simple reason: They're young. When you're 25, you live in a tiny apartment (likely shared) because you can't afford a mortgage and it puts you in close proximity to clubs and bars. When you're 45, you live in suburbia because you have enough money for a house, you have a spouse and kids that need the space, and you're no longer interested in getting hammered every evening.

I'm in my fifties and I live in Europe in a flat, which I own, close to the town center with my spouse and kid. If we "need space", we walk to one of the local parks or go cycling. My wife and I like going to local bars and having a beer or a glass of wine or two. We've never been interested in "getting hammered". Nor would we dream of trading our lifestyle for the so-called American dream of living in a suburb and driving everywhere.

I might point out that young people are living in urban environments for a simple reason: They're young. When you're 25, you live in a tiny apartment (likely shared) because you can't afford a mortgage and it puts you in close proximity to clubs and bars. When you're 45, you live in suburbia because you have enough money for a house, you have a spouse and kids that need the space, and you're no longer interested in getting hammered every evening.



Reasons Why I Want A Car:

1. I have family all over the country, and a 600 mile bike trip is a bit much.
2. Carrying 100lbs. of crap to a convention is difficult.
3. You're not sweaty, dirty, and winded after a 20-mile car trip.
4. Cars work really well in winter.
5. You can't carry a full-size computer on a bicycle. Especially if you're bringing a monitor.
6. You can drive a car even if you're sick or have sprained something recently.
7. It's a lot harder to steal a car than a bike.
8. You can't wear nice clothing on a bicycle.
9. Cars don't require perpetual maintenance.
10. Cars very rarely have flats.

Reasons why I don't have a car:
1. Initial cost.
2. No place to put it.
3. Cost of insurance.
4. Cost of maintenance.
(I think you get the picture.)




How on earth do you manage that? That's over $3,000 dollars a year - sans insurance!

REALLY? Cars do not require perpetual maintenance? At what point do you get when a car doesn't need maintenance anymore? When it's stopped running and is sitting on cinder blocks? And what maintenance does a bike need? New tires and break pads as they ware out? An occasional overhaul of the hubs and bottom bracket, new cables? With exception to your first point about long distance travel, I think your list is ridiculous.

I had three flats in my four years of owing a car, I have not yet had one in 1.5 years on my bike (knock on wood). I won't assume that my experience is typical, but in it cars seem to get more flats than bikes.

Reasons Why I Want A Car:

1. I have family all over the country, and a 600 mile bike trip is a bit much.
2. Carrying 100lbs. of crap to a convention is difficult.
3. You're not sweaty, dirty, and winded after a 20-mile car trip.
4. Cars work really well in winter.
5. You can't carry a full-size computer on a bicycle. Especially if you're bringing a monitor.
6. You can drive a car even if you're sick or have sprained something recently.
7. It's a lot harder to steal a car than a bike.
8. You can't wear nice clothing on a bicycle.
9. Cars don't require perpetual maintenance.
10. Cars very rarely have flats.

Reasons why I don't have a car:
1. Initial cost.
2. No place to put it.
3. Cost of insurance.
4. Cost of maintenance.
(I think you get the picture.)


1. I have family all over the country, and a 600 mile bike trip is a bit much.
Train? Bus? Airplane? Rental?

2. Carrying 100lbs. of crap to a convention is difficult.
Wrong, if you have a trailer or utility bike.

3. You're not sweaty, dirty, and winded after a 20-mile car trip.
Nor if you ride a bike at a reasonable speed and you're in reasonably good shape.

4. Cars work really well in winter.
Something tells me you haven't driven a car much in winter, or else winters are pretty mild where you live.

5. You can't carry a full-size computer on a bicycle. Especially if you're bringing a monitor.
Get a laptop.

6. You can drive a car even if you're sick or have sprained something recently.
Not if you've sprained your right ankle. (and yes I know from experience.)

7. It's a lot harder to steal a car than a bike.
Personally, I've had two cars stolen and only one bike.

8. You can't wear nice clothing on a bicycle.
No you can't. I can. Or I can change if it's raining.

9. Cars don't require perpetual maintenance.
That doesn't even begin to make sense. I'm thinking you don't have much bike experience. Which is cool, but it's smart not to say something is impossible, when really you just don't know how to do it.

10. Cars very rarely have flats.
But I'd rather change 20 bike flats than one car flat. You don't need a jack for a bike, and there are no lugnuts. A bike tire can easily be changed and back on the road in 5 minutes.