Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - why doesn't someone make a SS hub...

which would be immune to stripping threads from skidding and sprinting.

the body would not be threaded, but would have splines like a freehub body. then, a specially made cog could slide on one way and not turn, and would then be secured with a lockring.

tradition and standards are valid concerns, but track riders don't have to worry about regular skid stops.

didja strip yours today?

I was under the impression that something to this end existed. I could be completely mistaken, though.

somebody does make a splined fixed gear hub.....i think miche maybe? not positive though....

which would be immune to stripping threads from skidding and sprinting.

the body could be threaded with splines like a freehub body is. then, a specially made cog could slide on one way and not turn, and would then be secured with a lockring.

tradition and standards are valid concerns, but track riders don't have to worry about regular skid stops.This guy (http://www.levelcomponents.com/) is doing it, saw one at the East Coast SS Champs last week. I've got one on the way for testing. Look for a report once I've logged some miles on it.

well well... i guess i spoke too soon.

i didn't strip my hub, but i came very close and thought about what an outmoded design this is as i tightened down.

This guy (http://www.levelcomponents.com/) is doing it, saw one at the East Coast SS Champs last week. I've got one on the way for testing. Look for a report once I've logged some miles on it.

Holy crap. I want it.

Holy crap. I want it.

I read riderx's post from the singlespeed forum at MTBR.com and shot Level Components an email. Here's the reply I got from Scott Hansen...

Hello James,

thanks for your inquiry.

the hub in question is $220 US. it comes with a 16tooth cog and is available in 120mm and 135mm spacing. 32 hole and 36 hole as well. it comes with both spacers for now. that was one of the design criteria; to be able to swap the hub from track bike to mtb, swap the spacers, flip the cog over and have everything line up. so, really you are getting two hubs in one. other design criteria were for same spoke length front and rear, left and right; high flanges so you can repair a broken spoke on the drive side even if you are running a large cog and to be completely servicable using standard tools ( you can press the bearing in with the cog in an emergency situation)......i am currently using the same hub for both my SSmtb and my track frame. i machine everything, or have the CNC Guru do the major stuff, at a local machine shop in small batches. the idea of going overseas to get the production costs down doesn't appeal to me....nice choice of rims (I told him I was building a rear wheel using Mavic Open Pros). i have a messenger in Wash D.C. riding that same setup and loves it. his down time is virtully nil now because of the ability to service the hub himself without having to hoof it cross town to the bike shop....

Looking Forward,

Scott Hansen
LeVeL Components
Cape Cod Mass


Sounds pretty interesting...expensive...but interesting...
riderx, let us know more once you get some decent miles on that thing...now why couldn't I have swung a test hub? Some guys get all the luck!

If the quality is there, I think I'd pay that price for something that is intelligently designed by someone who does it for the love of it.

well well... i guess i spoke too soon.

i didn't strip my hub, but i came very close and thought about what an outmoded design this is as i tightened down.

Just a dumb question.....How do you know that you came close to stripping your hub?

i machine everything, or have the CNC Guru do the major stuff, at a local machine shop in small batches.

I don't want to be a component snob, but aren't CNC'ed hubs inferior to cold forged hubs? When Campy advises against using track hubs on the street due to potential flange failure, I look more and more into the types of materials being used.

While the idea behind the hub has merit, I would rather spend the money for this hub on a tried and true set of forged Phil Wood hubs over a single rear hub of which no longer term data is available.

edit: Almost forgot to mention the Miche splined sprocket system. Here's a link to business cycles which carries it: http://www.businesscycles.com/tcog-miche.htm

which would be immune to stripping threads from skidding and sprinting.

the body would not be threaded, but would have splines like a freehub body. then, a specially made cog could slide on one way and not turn, and would then be secured with a lockring.

tradition and standards are valid concerns, but track riders don't have to worry about regular skid stops.


I can understand the concern about stripping the threads from sprinting.
But please explain to me how you would strip the threads from skidding. By it's very nature, s/s hubs use a free wheel and thereby preclude skidding with the hub as is done with fixed gear. Maybe my 35 plus years of riding s/s and fixed gear have been all wrong, but I don't think so.

fixedgearhead

I can understand the concern about stripping the threads from sprinting.
But please explain to me how you would strip the threads from skidding. By it's very nature, s/s hubs use a free wheel and thereby preclude skidding with the hub as is done with fixed gear. Maybe my 35 plus years of riding s/s and fixed gear have been all wrong, but I don't think so.

fixedgearheadI think it was just a mistake in using the wrong terminology by the original poster.

I don't want to be a component snob, but aren't CNC'ed hubs inferior to cold forged hubs? Here is an interesting article (http://www.robertpowersmotorsports.com/BilletvsForged.html) on forged vs. machined. Not pertaining to bike parts, but the info should still apply. I take it that using the proper material for whichever process is being used is probably the greatest factor in determining strength, along with design, and not whether it was forged or machined.

This guy (http://www.levelcomponents.com/) is doing it, saw one at the East Coast SS Champs last week. I've got one on the way for testing. Look for a report once I've logged some miles on it.
look sweet. I'll see how they last out there b4 dropping 220 large. I remember when the Chub first came out. I have only heard one good review from xcutterx on that one.

I think it was just a mistake in using the wrong terminology by the original poster.

yes. fixed gear is what i'm implying here.

Just a dumb question.....How do you know that you came close to stripping your hub?


cause i pulled the lockring and cog off and saw the visible wear on the threads from the cog being pulled back and forth as i skidded and accelerated.

the cog threaded back on and i used a heavier loc-tite, but if there was any more wear, it might have been a lost cause.

Very cool stuff, I think he might actually be on to something there. If you read the Leigh High Velodrome press release on his website they say that one of the main advantages is the ability to quickly change cogs between races with only simple tools and no fear of really screwing it up. I like the idea that in 10 minutes with only a torx wrench I could swap cogs before a ride. My big concern is buying a $220 hub and a few cogs and then having the company fold and not being able to get more cogs after a certain point.
I'd certainly be willing to pay that much for a hub though for an uber wheelset. A Phil hub is already $140, another $80 thrown onto a $500 wheelset wouldn't make me too sad if it was really a better design, I also really like the fact that it's made locally (to him anyway) that's starting to matter to me. Maybe in a year when I'm ready for a set of uber wheels I'll get one.

cause i pulled the lockring and cog off and saw the visible wear on the threads from the cog being pulled back and forth as i skidded and accelerated.

the cog threaded back on and i used a heavier loc-tite, but if there was any more wear, it might have been a lost cause.If you don't run a front brake, you might want to consider it. I've got one for emergency situations and had a hub strip on me as I went back pedal to stop at an intersection. Luckily I had that front brake so I didn't fly into the busy intersection since I was moving pretty fast.

If you don't run a front brake, you might want to consider it. I've got one for emergency situations and had a hub strip on me as I went back pedal to stop at an intersection. Luckily I had that front brake so I didn't fly into the busy intersection since I was moving pretty fast.

blasphemy!

no, i do ride a front brake in the winter time when the roads are wetter, but i like everything about riding brakeless as well, and ride a gearing in the mid-60s for easy starting and stopping. i check my equipment pretty regularly and realize this probably wouldn't have happened so easily if i'd used loc-tite last time.

miche makes a track hub with a splined interface.

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/miche_track_cogs.htm

i think that carrier converts hubs to allow for the splined interface. i've seen pictures of their hubs without a splined interface though, so their hubs might require this carrier as well. i'm not sure if they make a hub that has those splines built in...

I think this LeVel guy reinvented the wheel as far as the cog mounting design is concerned. I much rather prefer someone make a fixie hub that uses Shimano splines (individual cogs are cheap and easy to obtain) that take a Shimano cassette type lockring. This way one does not have to worry if the company folds down and the special cogs become unavailable, or to pay for overpriced cogs. Besides, the spline system looks cleaner, not to mention Shimano stuff is top notch and reasonably priced. One of the supposed advantages of his cogs is that it is easier to do trailside repair since you use common torx wrench. But this should be a very rare occurance to warrant a proprietary cog design.

One of the supposed advantages of his cogs is that it is easier to do trailside repair since you use common torx wrench. But this should be a very rare occurance to warrant a proprietary cog design.

Also, I did not think of this last night, but I think the main benefit of such a hub would be the ability to micro adjust the chainline.

The web site mentions this:


Fixed Gear cog with eye2knuckle interface. Sizes 15 thru 20 tooth. Asymmetrical stepped InI cog allows for micro-chainline adjustment.
and


The chain line is most important. The cogs are custom laterally asymmetrically designed so you can adjust the chain line from the minimum (44.2mm) to a theoretical max (51.30).

I think this is just a function of being able to flip the cog facing the drive side or the non drive side. If you look at the following picture you can see that you can flip the cog and how that would effect the chainline.

http://www.levelcomponents.com/images/hub2.jpg

It would be great if they could design the "knuckle" interface to stick out a bit more so that one could add something like washers behind the bolts to get an exact chainline down to the mm. It seems that flipping the cog is probably too great of a change when one wants to dial in just 2 or 3 mm of chainline difference.

']look sweet. I'll see how they last out there b4 dropping 220 large. I remember when the Chub first came out. I have only heard one good review from xcutterx on that one.

Excuse me but it looks like they have a track cog bolted to that hub. I still question how you "skid" a freewheel single speed hub by back peddling. If they somehow can bolt a freewheel to that hub it becomes, by it's very nature, a freewheeling single speed hub and therefore can't be skidded.

fixedgearhead

Excuse me but it looks like they have a track cog bolted to that hub. I still question how you "skid" a freewheel single speed hub by back peddling. If they somehow can bolt a freewheel to that hub it becomes, by it's very nature, a freewheeling single speed hub and therefore can't be skidded.

fixedgearheadYou've been sleeping in class again. :D Please review the above posts.

It would be a lot, LOT easier to machine a Shimano spline straight onto the hub shell - that way you wouldn't be stuck with some proprietary design only available from one company. Then, you could use one of those nice Boone Ti cogs :)

It would be a lot, LOT easier to machine a Shimano spline straight onto the hub shell -
Well then Mr. Thylacine, I do believe you've found your niche. You've got to know people with the machining capability and you certaily have the design capability. I only have to ask, can you go use that pattern on your stuff or will Shimano try to sue you for using a propritary pattern without permission. If you can use it then go for it. It's not rocket science, it'll give you a new project, and I'll buy one of the first batch.

Excuse me but it looks like they have a track cog bolted to that hub. I still question how you "skid" a freewheel single speed hub by back peddling. If they somehow can bolt a freewheel to that hub it becomes, by it's very nature, a freewheeling single speed hub and therefore can't be skidded.

fixedgearhead
I'm not sure if this is off topic, I just read the forum for the great info, but from my history in bmx I do know that there are freecoasting hubs that have a backpedal mechanism that locks them much like backpedaling on a fixie would, I have known a few people who rode flatland with them in my time.....maybe his problem pertains to a similar hub??

Sure, I'll just add it to the bottom of the list here of "Cool things I'd like to make and sell".

I'm not sure if this is off topic, I just read the forum for the great info, but from my history in bmx I do know that there are freecoasting hubs that have a backpedal mechanism that locks them much like backpedaling on a fixie would, I have known a few people who rode flatland with them in my time.....maybe his problem pertains to a similar hub??
Hey Mike, how you and Debbie and the baby doing? Fancy seeing you here. Freecoasters are way different, we don't want to coast at all here, that's the key.
I still want Thylacine to get off his ass and do some actual design work. Lazy aussies. :)

which would be immune to stripping threads from skidding and sprinting.

the body would not be threaded, but would have splines like a freehub body. then, a specially made cog could slide on one way and not turn, and would then be secured with a lockring.

tradition and standards are valid concerns, but track riders don't have to worry about regular skid stops.

i just thought of another option. you can get those .125" thick cassette cogs, weld a splined freehub body so it won't spin any longer, and position the cog where you need it with spacers on the cassette.... viola. a fixed splined cog. xcutterx and i did it on my roommate's fixie. the idea was suggested by a track rider who had a tt 8 speed zipp disc that he wanted to use on the track.

You've been sleeping in class again. :D Please review the above posts.
thanks for grabbing that one

i just thought of another option. you can get those .125" thick cassette cogs, weld a splined freehub body so it won't spin any longer, and position the cog where you need it with spacers on the cassette.... viola. a fixed splined cog. xcutterx and i did it on my roommate's fixie. the idea was suggested by a track rider who had a tt 8 speed zipp disc that he wanted to use on the track.

So you managed to weld Steel to Aluminium eh? You're a freakin' genius. :p

Okay, so you just 'froze' the freehub by welding it solid, is that what you're saying?

looks sweet to me, too. I too would also be concerned with it's ability to work with other parts, cogs, freewheels, lock rings, etc.

that anecdote about the bike messenger is odd. how frequently would anyone need to change their sprockets out, or otherwise 'service' the hub? its like what-- they get a heavy load of mail and are like 'shhit its time to switch to the 18t again, good thing i dont have to go to the shop now that i have my new LeVel hub!' :rolleyes:

Hello,
I would be glad to answer any questions you have about the Level Components InI hub. I ride one every day, I work on one as a messenger
My bike set up,

Gunnar Street Dog, Level Hubs front and rear, Thompson seatpost and stem, No brakes, Velocity DeepV rims or Mavic CXP33s. Phil Wood BB, Campy track cranks.

Q: How has it held up to a year of working as a bike messenger?

A: Outstanding. The fit and finish of the hub is wonderfull. The higher flange gives you a nice tight wheel. There is nothing to strip.

Q: I've never stripped a cog, why should I buy a more expensive hub.

A: After you pay for Var lock ring plyers, a lock ring, a cog, and a chain whip you could have two level hubs. and never worry that your going to strip out. Fixed gear MTB riding tends to strip more hubs then road riding.

Q: Does the cog allow you to alter the chain line?

A: Yes. The cog allows you to adjust your chain line for a much closer fit then a threaded system.

As to changing cogs during work, I do not do that. However after work I sometimes change a cog for the ride home. I also change if the day is really windy, or I am tired.

I think this LeVel guy reinvented the wheel as far as the cog mounting design is concerned. I much rather prefer someone make a fixie hub that uses Shimano splines (individual cogs are cheap and easy to obtain) that take a Shimano cassette type lockring. This way one does not have to worry if the company folds down and the special cogs become unavailable, or to pay for overpriced cogs. Besides, the spline system looks cleaner, not to mention Shimano stuff is top notch and reasonably priced. One of the supposed advantages of his cogs is that it is easier to do trailside repair since you use common torx wrench. But this should be a very rare occurance to warrant a proprietary cog design.

I am not sure how using a shimano cassette type lockring continues with the idea of not using a threaded cog. A shimano cassette is held onto the cassette body by using a threaded lockring cog. If you used a regular cog from a shimano cassette how would you hold it onto the hub? If you wanted to run 1/8" chains and cogs what would you do?

I suppose a steel hub would be much less prone to stripping than aluminum.

:p

the miche setup doesn't keep you from stripping a hub at all (in my case actually it made it worse)
it still threads on like normal, then the cog fits on to the threaded part...
i had a loose lock ring and at one point it slipped, the cog fell off the base part, wedged itself between the base part and the lock ring, and completely stripped the part of the hub that the lock ring threads onto...

also, i think i saw it on these boards (maybe not) but somebody is making cogs that bolt on to a disk-brake hub, where you would normally attach the disk...

Has anyone seen the new IRO SS hubs with a integrated freewheel made for Shimano cogs? http://www.irocycle.com/fixedgearandsinglespeedbikeframesfromirocycleinc/id115.html

I would love to see these without the freewheel.

the miche setup doesn't keep you from stripping a hub at all (in my case actually it made it worse)
it still threads on like normal, then the cog fits on to the threaded part...
i had a loose lock ring and at one point it slipped, the cog fell off the base part, wedged itself between the base part and the lock ring, and completely stripped the part of the hub that the lock ring threads onto

Noticed this as well. The cog is still being secured to the hub by threads, not fixed splines. The benefit for ease of cog changing is apparent, but it does not really address stripping threads...

There was photo a few posts up (#23) of a cog that is bolted to the hub. That seems reasonable... ?

a lot of observed trials hubs are fixed in the rear for a front free wheel. there are plenty of brands out there that make these hubs, and there is also a kit to turn a normal hub into a fixed gear hub :D

Like these:

From woodman components

http://www.woodmancomponents.com/products/hubs/bill_trial_plus_rsq.html

Fixed shimano cassette spline, available with or without disc mounts.

A problem I've heard addressed in another thread is that play can develop in the splines of Miche cogs. I don't know if this happens regularly when people skip and skid with them on the street, but it happened to someone on the forum a ways back. They are most likely geared (no pun intended) toward track use, as I've heard Miche hubs to be, rather than street (ab)use.

play can develop in the splines of Miche cogs
i personally never had that problem riding the miche for quite a while on the street, with a heavy gearing (50-14) and brakeless...
that said i still think they're pretty useless for the street...

that said i still think they're pretty useless for the street...
seconded

A trials hub is only fixed gear when the freewheel is built into the crank asembly. This is not a fixed gear bike, but a way to move the derailur out of the way. The disk rotor bolt on idea is not bad, but it should limit cog size, hub spacing, and depending on the design of the cog, not nearly as strong as the InI. Non of these problems exist with my Level hub. I think they will have a bolt on for disks soon. They mentioned a bolt on disk adaptor. I run a disk hub SS on my MTB. Can't wait for that. Just started fixed MTB riding, and it turned my old trail into a whole new beast.

i personally never had that problem riding the miche for quite a while on the street, with a heavy gearing (50-14) and brakeless...
that said i still think they're pretty useless for the street...

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that this was a common problem or anything - I had just heard of one single instance of it. I am following this up b/c I don't want to scare off future readers of this thread from the hardware if it's good equipment w/ a fluke failure.

Like these:

From woodman components

http://www.woodmancomponents.com/products/hubs/bill_trial_plus_rsq.html

Fixed shimano cassette spline, available with or without disc mounts.

sliding off the subject a bit, their track hub is pretty swank: http://www.woodmancomponents.com/products/hubs/bill_track_rzn.html