Panoramic
06-09-04, 08:27 AM
Could someone please tell me what counter steering is when riding fast through a turn? Thanks
Road Cycling - Counter Steering???
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bikenutr2000
06-09-04, 08:41 AM
It's when you apply pressure to the steering wheel towards the opposite direction you want to turn, hence "countersteer". So, to turn right you are going to steel to the left and vice versa. Most people don't believe it works until they try it. For it to be effective you need to be moving pretty good, when you try it apply a LITTLE pressure and you will see what happens, when countersteering you don't turn the wheel much. If forces your bike to lean into the turn much better then you can lean the bike into the turn. Once you feel comfortable you will countersteer all the time.
Have fun
Have fun
LordOpie
06-09-04, 09:00 AM
umm, bikenutr, your explanation seemed wierd, especially, "...apply pressure to the steering wheel towards the opposite direction you want to turn..."
I actually learned what I think of counter-steering in my motorcycle class...
you press the handlebars in the direction you want to go with the hand on that side -- right turn, right hand, bike leans right -- but get out of the seat/saddle and lean your body the opposite way... kinda keeping your body perpendicular to the ground.
This works for fast -and- slow turns. I mostly use it in mtb'ing for tight slow switchbacks.
I actually learned what I think of counter-steering in my motorcycle class...
you press the handlebars in the direction you want to go with the hand on that side -- right turn, right hand, bike leans right -- but get out of the seat/saddle and lean your body the opposite way... kinda keeping your body perpendicular to the ground.
This works for fast -and- slow turns. I mostly use it in mtb'ing for tight slow switchbacks.
Ebbtide
06-09-04, 10:14 AM
Is counter steering an actual conscience technique you employ, or does it just happen naturally.
I've been riding bikes forever and never once had to think about performing a counter steer, it just happens when cornering, right? Is it possible others are overthinking this common concept?
I've been riding bikes forever and never once had to think about performing a counter steer, it just happens when cornering, right? Is it possible others are overthinking this common concept?
MichaelW
06-09-04, 11:21 AM
It comes pretty naturally if you spent hours playing on a bike when you were a kid. There is a problem for riders who didnt mis-spend their youth on two wheels. They have to learn to ride.
SchreiberBike
06-09-04, 11:38 AM
Every rider of every two wheel vehicle knows how to countersteer. They just aren't conscious of it. Countersteering is part of going straight and of turning, you can't ride a bike or a motorcycle any other way.
The fact that you have to steer for a moment in the opposite direction from the direction you want to go is why it's hard to learn to ride a bicycle. Becoming conscious of countersteering and learning to use it to your maximum advantage gives you more control, especially in emergency situations.
The fact that you have to steer for a moment in the opposite direction from the direction you want to go is why it's hard to learn to ride a bicycle. Becoming conscious of countersteering and learning to use it to your maximum advantage gives you more control, especially in emergency situations.
pacesetter
06-09-04, 11:48 AM
It's when you apply pressure to the steering wheel towards the opposite direction you want to turn, hence "countersteer". So, to turn right you are going to steel to the left and vice versa. Most people don't believe it works until they try it. For it to be effective you need to be moving pretty good, when you try it apply a LITTLE pressure and you will see what happens, when countersteering you don't turn the wheel much. If forces your bike to lean into the turn much better then you can lean the bike into the turn. Once you feel comfortable you will countersteer all the time.
Have fun
Do you drive your car this way? or does your bike have a steering wheel.
Have fun
Do you drive your car this way? or does your bike have a steering wheel.
pacesetter
06-09-04, 11:49 AM
Every rider of every two wheel vehicle knows how to countersteer. They just aren't conscious of it. Countersteering is part of going straight and of turning, you can't ride a bike or a motorcycle any other way.
The fact that you have to steer for a moment in the opposite direction from the direction you want to go is why it's hard to learn to ride a bicycle. Becoming conscious of countersteering and learning to use it to your maximum advantage gives you more control, especially in emergency situations.
Fully agree.
The fact that you have to steer for a moment in the opposite direction from the direction you want to go is why it's hard to learn to ride a bicycle. Becoming conscious of countersteering and learning to use it to your maximum advantage gives you more control, especially in emergency situations.
Fully agree.
dragracer
06-09-04, 12:23 PM
I had discovered what is now known as "countersteering" when I was a kid. Riding my motorcycle around the yard, I soon figured out something strange was going on. Turn the handlebars right to turn left(and visa versa). I told/asked a few people about it but they all thought I was crazy I think. Years later I started reading articles in motorcycle magazines about countersteering. I took a motorcycle rider safety course at one time and they also taught "countersteering". You don't have to steer this way, you can lean, or press your weight onto a footpeg, but It's definately the most efficent way to steer a motorcycle. Since there is less mass to a bicycle, the affect is not as noticable, but it's still there. Especially at higher speeds.
Here's how it works(more or less)......in case anyone actually cares.....
When you turn the handlebars to the right, the mass of the rest of the bike is still trying to go straight ahead....thus leaning it to the opposite direction(left). If you continued to turn the handlebars right, you would simply fall over to the left. Obviously we don't want to fall over, so as soon as the bike begins to lean in the direction we want to turn, we instinctively turn the handlebars back to the straight(or slighttly left) position to hold the turn. Once you are leaned over, the shape of the tires takes over to make you turn. If the tire was totally flat on the bottom it would be very hard to turn. Take a funnel and lay it on the floor and roll it. What does it do? It rolls in an arc/circle right? Same principle.
If you've ever watched motorcycle drag races, you might know that coutersteering doesn't work well when a bike has a real wide, flat tread on the rear tire. The riders actually have to lean their bodies to one side or the other to get the things to turn.
Sorry got a little off subject there, but who knows, maybe someone will learn something from my rambling. :D
EDIT....Just found this writeup on countersteering that seems to be pretty good in case anyone is interested.... CLICKY (http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html)
Here's how it works(more or less)......in case anyone actually cares.....
When you turn the handlebars to the right, the mass of the rest of the bike is still trying to go straight ahead....thus leaning it to the opposite direction(left). If you continued to turn the handlebars right, you would simply fall over to the left. Obviously we don't want to fall over, so as soon as the bike begins to lean in the direction we want to turn, we instinctively turn the handlebars back to the straight(or slighttly left) position to hold the turn. Once you are leaned over, the shape of the tires takes over to make you turn. If the tire was totally flat on the bottom it would be very hard to turn. Take a funnel and lay it on the floor and roll it. What does it do? It rolls in an arc/circle right? Same principle.
If you've ever watched motorcycle drag races, you might know that coutersteering doesn't work well when a bike has a real wide, flat tread on the rear tire. The riders actually have to lean their bodies to one side or the other to get the things to turn.
Sorry got a little off subject there, but who knows, maybe someone will learn something from my rambling. :D
EDIT....Just found this writeup on countersteering that seems to be pretty good in case anyone is interested.... CLICKY (http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html)
GreenFix
06-09-04, 12:58 PM
umm, bikenutr, your explanation seemed wierd, especially, "...apply pressure to the steering wheel towards the opposite direction you want to turn..."
I actually learned what I think of counter-steering in my motorcycle class...
you press the handlebars in the direction you want to go with the hand on that side -- right turn, right hand, bike leans right -- but get out of the seat/saddle and lean your body the opposite way... kinda keeping your body perpendicular to the ground.
This works for fast -and- slow turns. I mostly use it in mtb'ing for tight slow switchbacks.
I apologize this is off the bicycling topic:
Lord Opie,
To keep yourself a little safer, and make your motorcycling more fun and smoother, do not lean the opposite way you want to turn. Appropriate body position on a motorcycle is usually neutral. Keep centered and relaxed on the seat, and turn your head so that the horizon remains horizontal. This is mostly for moderate to high speed stuff. For slower turns, adjusting your body weight to be centered over the motorcycle (by leaning the opposite way you are turning) will increase your control by keeping you center of gravity over the motocycles contact patch. It allows you to lean the bike over much further than if you were sitting neutrally on the bike.
Your and Bikenutr's descriptions of counter steering are actually both mostly correct. It all depends on your point of reference.
I think Bike nutter was referring to turning the handlebars away from the direction of your turn (think of the turning as if a motorcycle were sitting still). At speed if you turn the handlebars to the left, the bike will pitch to the right very quickly. This is the definition of countersteering.
What you are referring to is not necessarily countersteering, depending on how your hands are positioned on the bars. Again think of the the motorcycle sitting still. If you simply put pressure on the top of the right grip the steering will do nothing, but the bike might lean to the right. If you push on the right grip on one side (like a one handed push up), then the wheel will turn to the left. At speed on the motorcycle the result is the bike pitching to the right exactly as bike nutter described.
If you take your bike out you can convince yourself of how different counter steering feels as opposed to using bar pressure to lean the bike. They are very different, and countersteering is worlds quicker.
Countersteering will not work at low speeds. Think about riding around a parking lot or climbing a hill on a bicycle. Turn the wheel to the right; you go right.
The physics of countersteering can be much more elegantly explained using a quick google search. The short explanation is that it has to do with the gyroscopic forces of the wheels in motion. You can demostrate this to yourself using a bicycle wheel and a bar stool with a swivel top. Sit on the stool, hold the axle of the wheel in your hands and spin the wheel fast (or get someone else to do it). Try to turn the wheel to a side and see which direction you will spin on the stool. You can't get the same effect spinning the wheel slowly.
I know some of this was explained on other posts, but I felt like rambling.
I actually learned what I think of counter-steering in my motorcycle class...
you press the handlebars in the direction you want to go with the hand on that side -- right turn, right hand, bike leans right -- but get out of the seat/saddle and lean your body the opposite way... kinda keeping your body perpendicular to the ground.
This works for fast -and- slow turns. I mostly use it in mtb'ing for tight slow switchbacks.
I apologize this is off the bicycling topic:
Lord Opie,
To keep yourself a little safer, and make your motorcycling more fun and smoother, do not lean the opposite way you want to turn. Appropriate body position on a motorcycle is usually neutral. Keep centered and relaxed on the seat, and turn your head so that the horizon remains horizontal. This is mostly for moderate to high speed stuff. For slower turns, adjusting your body weight to be centered over the motorcycle (by leaning the opposite way you are turning) will increase your control by keeping you center of gravity over the motocycles contact patch. It allows you to lean the bike over much further than if you were sitting neutrally on the bike.
Your and Bikenutr's descriptions of counter steering are actually both mostly correct. It all depends on your point of reference.
I think Bike nutter was referring to turning the handlebars away from the direction of your turn (think of the turning as if a motorcycle were sitting still). At speed if you turn the handlebars to the left, the bike will pitch to the right very quickly. This is the definition of countersteering.
What you are referring to is not necessarily countersteering, depending on how your hands are positioned on the bars. Again think of the the motorcycle sitting still. If you simply put pressure on the top of the right grip the steering will do nothing, but the bike might lean to the right. If you push on the right grip on one side (like a one handed push up), then the wheel will turn to the left. At speed on the motorcycle the result is the bike pitching to the right exactly as bike nutter described.
If you take your bike out you can convince yourself of how different counter steering feels as opposed to using bar pressure to lean the bike. They are very different, and countersteering is worlds quicker.
Countersteering will not work at low speeds. Think about riding around a parking lot or climbing a hill on a bicycle. Turn the wheel to the right; you go right.
The physics of countersteering can be much more elegantly explained using a quick google search. The short explanation is that it has to do with the gyroscopic forces of the wheels in motion. You can demostrate this to yourself using a bicycle wheel and a bar stool with a swivel top. Sit on the stool, hold the axle of the wheel in your hands and spin the wheel fast (or get someone else to do it). Try to turn the wheel to a side and see which direction you will spin on the stool. You can't get the same effect spinning the wheel slowly.
I know some of this was explained on other posts, but I felt like rambling.
catatonic
06-09-04, 01:14 PM
Do you drive your car this way? or does your bike have a steering wheel.
In high speed car maneuvering (80mph+), effective countersteering is essential. I've pulled turns in excess of 100mph easily using proper countersteer to exit a turn. In a car what you do is hit the turn using proper line...in some turns your car will start to slide (for a RWD layout this is actually very normal), so once you get past the apex of the turn you gradually go back to center, and if you see your still off line, a bit of counter-steer is all it takes to put you back. For rally drivers, there are entire race courses on how to use counter-steering.
In a bike, it seems to be countersteer is a way to cheat your way into gripping further back on the front wheel...thus shortening your wheelbase for the duration of the turn.
Shorter wheelbase + same turning input usually = tighter cornering.
Now getting a lower angle also helps, but i forgot the exact physics behind it.
In high speed car maneuvering (80mph+), effective countersteering is essential. I've pulled turns in excess of 100mph easily using proper countersteer to exit a turn. In a car what you do is hit the turn using proper line...in some turns your car will start to slide (for a RWD layout this is actually very normal), so once you get past the apex of the turn you gradually go back to center, and if you see your still off line, a bit of counter-steer is all it takes to put you back. For rally drivers, there are entire race courses on how to use counter-steering.
In a bike, it seems to be countersteer is a way to cheat your way into gripping further back on the front wheel...thus shortening your wheelbase for the duration of the turn.
Shorter wheelbase + same turning input usually = tighter cornering.
Now getting a lower angle also helps, but i forgot the exact physics behind it.
redfooj
06-09-04, 01:40 PM
bikes and cars are different... bikes turn by lean.. cars turn by slip angles... they learn the opposite way vs bikes....
bike countersteering is subconscious
countersteering in car, in most context, is correcting oversteer
bike countersteering is subconscious
countersteering in car, in most context, is correcting oversteer
khackney
06-09-04, 02:10 PM
Here is a post from a past thread...
Well... try this. Picture a bicycle moving straight down the road with the rider directly centered on the bike. If the rider steers the tires to the right but does not allow his head to move farther to the right the bike is now leaning left. Countersteering is using the leverage of the tire contact patch to force the bike or motorcycle to lean in the desired direction. Kind of like powersteering for two wheels. If you don't coutersteer, you rely solely on your shifting weight to overcome the gyroscopic effect of the two spinning wheels. On a motorcycle with relatively heavy tire/wheel weight the bike will literally fight you if you don't coutersteer.
With practice you start the lean by countersteering and then catch the amount of lean and hold it by decreasing the counter pressure. Remember, with the light weight of a bicycle these moves are pretty subtle. You don't want to "whip" right and then go left.
Here is a link to that discussion:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=39121
Well... try this. Picture a bicycle moving straight down the road with the rider directly centered on the bike. If the rider steers the tires to the right but does not allow his head to move farther to the right the bike is now leaning left. Countersteering is using the leverage of the tire contact patch to force the bike or motorcycle to lean in the desired direction. Kind of like powersteering for two wheels. If you don't coutersteer, you rely solely on your shifting weight to overcome the gyroscopic effect of the two spinning wheels. On a motorcycle with relatively heavy tire/wheel weight the bike will literally fight you if you don't coutersteer.
With practice you start the lean by countersteering and then catch the amount of lean and hold it by decreasing the counter pressure. Remember, with the light weight of a bicycle these moves are pretty subtle. You don't want to "whip" right and then go left.
Here is a link to that discussion:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=39121
Boomer
06-09-04, 02:18 PM
Several weeks ago, my brother-inlaw, an avid motorcyclist, told me about countersteering. He told me the exact stuff posted on this thread. So the next morning, I tried countersteering on my ride. I was going about 15 mph approaching a 90 degree right turn. I leaned into the turn like I always do and halfway into the turn I nudged the handlebars to the left. HOLY$#!T!!! The bike wobbled like a bucking bull and I hung on for dear life to regain balance. I just don't get it!
Velo Dog
06-09-04, 02:30 PM
I'm with ehenz: I've been riding for 30 years, and every time somebody brings up countersteering, I go out and try to do it and I can't figure it out. I'm probably doing it unconsciously, but I sure can't MAKE myself do it.
dragracer
06-09-04, 02:32 PM
Several weeks ago, my brother-inlaw, an avid motorcyclist, told me about countersteering. He told me the exact stuff posted on this thread. So the next morning, I tried countersteering on my ride. I was going about 15 mph approaching a 90 degree right turn. I leaned into the turn like I always do and halfway into the turn I nudged the handlebars to the left. HOLY$#!T!!! The bike wobbled like a bucking bull and I hung on for dear life to regain balance. I just don't get it!
LMAO! You don't have to jerk or "nudge" the handlebar......it's a very minute turn(actually just slight pressure) in the opposite direction to establish the lean and thus the turn. It's not even really noticable....you probably do it all the time without even knowing it. Check out this page and the mpeg video of a motorcycle rider using countersteering. CLICKY (http://www.vsa.cape.com/~wayg/mrep/csteer.htm) If you watch it several times you can see whats happening. Watch it frame by frame and it really shows up good. Like I said before...it's MUCH more noticable on a motorcycle because of the greater mass(weight). And you DO NOT countersteer once you are already in a turn....only to establish the "lean" and start the turn.
Cars and bikes have virtually nothing in common in the physics involved in "turning". A 3 wheel motorcycle/tricycle(sidecar/3 wheeler/tricycle) turns like a car since you don't actually lean to turn....unless you get one wheel off the ground. :p
LMAO! You don't have to jerk or "nudge" the handlebar......it's a very minute turn(actually just slight pressure) in the opposite direction to establish the lean and thus the turn. It's not even really noticable....you probably do it all the time without even knowing it. Check out this page and the mpeg video of a motorcycle rider using countersteering. CLICKY (http://www.vsa.cape.com/~wayg/mrep/csteer.htm) If you watch it several times you can see whats happening. Watch it frame by frame and it really shows up good. Like I said before...it's MUCH more noticable on a motorcycle because of the greater mass(weight). And you DO NOT countersteer once you are already in a turn....only to establish the "lean" and start the turn.
Cars and bikes have virtually nothing in common in the physics involved in "turning". A 3 wheel motorcycle/tricycle(sidecar/3 wheeler/tricycle) turns like a car since you don't actually lean to turn....unless you get one wheel off the ground. :p
Boomer
06-09-04, 03:05 PM
Dragracer,
OK, I can see that countersteering can increase speed through a turn for motorcycles. But since bikes are only at a fraction of the speed of motorcycles, have you found the difference in the countersteering technique to be noticable. Put another way, will countersteering make a difference for you in a criterium?
OK, I can see that countersteering can increase speed through a turn for motorcycles. But since bikes are only at a fraction of the speed of motorcycles, have you found the difference in the countersteering technique to be noticable. Put another way, will countersteering make a difference for you in a criterium?
LordOpie
06-09-04, 07:22 PM
good info!
smeghead
06-09-04, 08:01 PM
dragracer - that makes a lot more sense now to this thread!
sorebutt
06-09-04, 08:44 PM
I think we are all do it and not even thinking of it. Thats part of learning how to ride a bike. And you never forget.. :)
However, if you are relatively new to road biking and you find yourself going down hill at 25+ mph, you will be over cautious with your maneuvers, and you will under-counter-steer and you and up with very wide turns.. takes time to build confidence and let yourself do what should come naturally..
I have found that while going down hill, and am typically all tucked in (elbows in, knees to the TT, hands on the drops), when I get to a turn I stick my (turn side) knee out and the shift in weight and the aerodynamics of the out knee, helps me turn with more confidence.. y'all should try it..
However, if you are relatively new to road biking and you find yourself going down hill at 25+ mph, you will be over cautious with your maneuvers, and you will under-counter-steer and you and up with very wide turns.. takes time to build confidence and let yourself do what should come naturally..
I have found that while going down hill, and am typically all tucked in (elbows in, knees to the TT, hands on the drops), when I get to a turn I stick my (turn side) knee out and the shift in weight and the aerodynamics of the out knee, helps me turn with more confidence.. y'all should try it..
catatonic
06-09-04, 09:40 PM
bikes and cars are different... bikes turn by lean.. cars turn by slip angles... they learn the opposite way vs bikes....
bike countersteering is subconscious
countersteering in car, in most context, is correcting oversteer
True, but both invlove moving the wheel the opposite way that most would assume.
As far as high speed car cornering, you can have a perfect line, but still have slip...so countersteering is crucial for them.
As far as me on my bike, I'm pretty sure I countersteer. I'm more of one of those guys that stnads semi upright while allowing my bike to lean more...so I do get some outward motion on the handlebars.
bike countersteering is subconscious
countersteering in car, in most context, is correcting oversteer
True, but both invlove moving the wheel the opposite way that most would assume.
As far as high speed car cornering, you can have a perfect line, but still have slip...so countersteering is crucial for them.
As far as me on my bike, I'm pretty sure I countersteer. I'm more of one of those guys that stnads semi upright while allowing my bike to lean more...so I do get some outward motion on the handlebars.
dragracer
06-10-04, 07:23 AM
Dragracer,
OK, I can see that countersteering can increase speed through a turn for motorcycles. But since bikes are only at a fraction of the speed of motorcycles, have you found the difference in the countersteering technique to be noticable. Put another way, will countersteering make a difference for you in a criterium?
I wouldn't say it will increase speed. You only have a certain amount of lateral traction to play with so when it's used up, it's just used up. The faster you go around a corner, the more centrifugal(sp?) force comes into play so it takes more traction to hold the bike on it's "line". Has nothing to do with steering. All countersteering does is make your bike "lean over" quicker. If you just inititate a turn by shifting your weight....there is some lag between the time you shift your weight and the time the bike leans. Countersteering makes the bike lean immediately. To answer your question, yes there is a definate difference from motorcycle to bicycle....but the principle is still the same. I think the greater mass of the motorcycle makes more of a difference than the greater speed. And I would say yes, countersteering would absolutely help you make transitions into corners... and especially from one direction to the opposite direction(left turn into an immediate right turn, and visa versa) a lot quicker.
OK, I can see that countersteering can increase speed through a turn for motorcycles. But since bikes are only at a fraction of the speed of motorcycles, have you found the difference in the countersteering technique to be noticable. Put another way, will countersteering make a difference for you in a criterium?
I wouldn't say it will increase speed. You only have a certain amount of lateral traction to play with so when it's used up, it's just used up. The faster you go around a corner, the more centrifugal(sp?) force comes into play so it takes more traction to hold the bike on it's "line". Has nothing to do with steering. All countersteering does is make your bike "lean over" quicker. If you just inititate a turn by shifting your weight....there is some lag between the time you shift your weight and the time the bike leans. Countersteering makes the bike lean immediately. To answer your question, yes there is a definate difference from motorcycle to bicycle....but the principle is still the same. I think the greater mass of the motorcycle makes more of a difference than the greater speed. And I would say yes, countersteering would absolutely help you make transitions into corners... and especially from one direction to the opposite direction(left turn into an immediate right turn, and visa versa) a lot quicker.
JohnnyTheFox
06-10-04, 07:34 AM
Right.... this is very confusing, Im assuming its not the same as opposite lock in a car as some people seem to be confusing? Thats when you need to keep the car going straight but youve given it too much gas so you correct it.
So if I am coming up to a right hand corner 20mph what exactly should I do to countersteer.
So I turn the handlebars to the left, meaning my weight is forced to the right making me lean in quicker, then relax the handlebars into the turn? That it?
So if I am coming up to a right hand corner 20mph what exactly should I do to countersteer.
So I turn the handlebars to the left, meaning my weight is forced to the right making me lean in quicker, then relax the handlebars into the turn? That it?
Smoothie104
06-10-04, 07:47 AM
yup, everyone does it, whether you realize it or not. If your headset was locked straight ahead, you would not be able to turn the bike just by leaning your body.
http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/outdoors/2001/2/No_Body_Steer_Motorcycle/print.phtml
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
Guys, just get rolling along at like 20mph, then put your hands on the tops of the bars, now just barely push on the left side,(which is equal to a very slight pull or turn to the right side) and the bike turns to the left, and vice versa. You learn this as a kid, but its subconcious for most people.
http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/outdoors/2001/2/No_Body_Steer_Motorcycle/print.phtml
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
Guys, just get rolling along at like 20mph, then put your hands on the tops of the bars, now just barely push on the left side,(which is equal to a very slight pull or turn to the right side) and the bike turns to the left, and vice versa. You learn this as a kid, but its subconcious for most people.
SchreiberBike
06-10-04, 07:49 AM
It is confusing to think about because you are trying to do something consciously which you do unconsciously whenever you ride.
As an experiment, next time you are riding on a smooth road at a good clip, simply watch to see how you turn the handlebars tiny small amounts to go straight and to turn. Then try consciously turning your handlebars small or slightly larger amounts to see what happens and how quickly and how automatically you respond to regain equilibrium. Then try consciously establishing your lean into a turn quickly by turning the handlebars away from the direction you want to turn.
You are already countersteering if you are riding a two wheeled vehicle. By becoming conscious of it, you can become a better bike handler.
As an experiment, next time you are riding on a smooth road at a good clip, simply watch to see how you turn the handlebars tiny small amounts to go straight and to turn. Then try consciously turning your handlebars small or slightly larger amounts to see what happens and how quickly and how automatically you respond to regain equilibrium. Then try consciously establishing your lean into a turn quickly by turning the handlebars away from the direction you want to turn.
You are already countersteering if you are riding a two wheeled vehicle. By becoming conscious of it, you can become a better bike handler.
dragracer
06-10-04, 07:54 AM
Yeah! What Smoothie and Schreiber said!! :D Good links!! Keith Code is THE MAN!! He wrote the book, Literally (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965045021/qid=1086875848/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-6480668-9959206?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), on how to ride a motorcyle FAST!! :) :D
SchreiberBike
06-10-04, 07:58 AM
yup, everyone does it, whether you realize it or not. If your headset was locked straight ahead, you would not be able to turn the bike just by leaning your body.
http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/outdoors/2001/2/No_Body_Steer_Motorcycle/print.phtml
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
Great links. Thanks Smoothie.
http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/outdoors/2001/2/No_Body_Steer_Motorcycle/print.phtml
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
Great links. Thanks Smoothie.
wpbusc
06-10-04, 08:25 AM
Ok we have left out few IMPORTANT steps!
Let's assume we are going through a right handed turn.
1) As you begin the turn and start leaning to the right you apply slight foward pressure with your right arm and you can pull back slightly with your left.
2) Your outside leg, left in this case, should be be straight. You should also be applying pressure with left leg. Your right knee should be used to couter balance through the turn to correct your radius.
3) Your head should be upright and looking through the turn, not at the apex of the turn!
4) Check out the photo on this thread to see counter steering in action.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=54435
Thanks
Buddy B
Let's assume we are going through a right handed turn.
1) As you begin the turn and start leaning to the right you apply slight foward pressure with your right arm and you can pull back slightly with your left.
2) Your outside leg, left in this case, should be be straight. You should also be applying pressure with left leg. Your right knee should be used to couter balance through the turn to correct your radius.
3) Your head should be upright and looking through the turn, not at the apex of the turn!
4) Check out the photo on this thread to see counter steering in action.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=54435
Thanks
Buddy B
MichaelW
06-10-04, 11:42 AM
If you want to countersteer, without having to learn countersteering, or understand the mechanics, just lay some beer cans in a row at 3yard intervals, and ride through as a slalom . You come out of one curve, into the next by countersteering.
Hillsborough
06-11-04, 10:57 AM
If you ever see ice motor biking, they employ counter steering through their turns on top of frozen lakes in the winter.
Regards
David
Regards
David
jsfountain
06-11-04, 11:17 AM
i tried the counter steer consciencely yesterday on my ride through a fast downhill descent where i reach 26-28 mph and make a 90 degree right turn. i normally lean into the curve with right knee up and out. this time i tried it with right knee up and in towards the top tube. as i started to take the curve i gently counter steered my front wheel ever so slighty to my left and i zoomed through the turn with incredible control and on line.
normally my line for this turn can be erratic and unpredictable. but this counter steer helped me to stay in a true arc type line through the turn. i even felt that i had better control thorugh the turn at this speed.
thanks for the post!
normally my line for this turn can be erratic and unpredictable. but this counter steer helped me to stay in a true arc type line through the turn. i even felt that i had better control thorugh the turn at this speed.
thanks for the post!