Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - brainstorming wanted about my problems from 50-90 miles

Somewhere around 50 miles, my legs turn to lead and this is pretty much the case until 90 miles. Then I start feeling better, and I'm pretty much ok the rest of my ride. So far this has been the case with 3 200k's, 1 300k, and 1 400k. I think I may be eating enough, but I guess it could be as simple as not eating enough early in the ride. Has anyone else ever had this sort of consistent low period in their longer rides?

The only electrolytes I have been using is Nuun and some Gatorade. There haven't really been any hot rides yet, so I'm not sure this is the problem. I'm hoping to add electrolyte tablets on the upcoming 600k this weekend.

When you're on your rides do you start eating about 250 calories per hour right away within the first hour of your ride?

I find what works for me is to consume about 500 calories for breakfast, and then at about the 1-hour point, I start nibbling my cookies, granola bars, etc. I use a bento bag which I find very handy for nibbling ... my food is right in front of me, and I'm not committed to eating a whole cookie or granola bar at once. I try to keep consuming about 250 calories every hour by nibbling like that.

Then at my first control, I'll eat a bit more ... like a banana, or a whole cookie, or a packet of salted almonds or something ... both for variety and to up my calorie intake a bit. I also drink a 575 ml bottle of coke, iced tea, orange pop, or 100% orange juice at the control. This adds to my calorie count and supplements my beverage intake. I repeat this sort of thing at most controls, and will try to eat an actual meal about every 100 km.

I think most people have a low point like that when they first start riding centuries. On centuries, the calorie intake is part of the problem, but another part of the problem is a mental one ... you're far enough into the ride to feel a bit tired, but you've still got a ways to go. Not sure why you'd be experiencing that on longer rides though ... unless it is the calorie intake.

I can have low periods but they vary with the terrain. Generally I don't feel like my legs have warmed up until 50 miles or so into the ride.

You may be pushing yourself too hard in your first 50 miles or it might be a caloric intake issue. You could try varying your effort expended during those first 50.

Generally speaking your body cannot process more than 250 calories per hour so any excess just accumulates in your digestive system. You can't "make up" for a lack of calories by eating more later, as long as you keep riding. Like Machka I strive for 250 calories per hour but do so with a consistent intake rather than striving for variety. For me, that's worked the best. Every person is different.

I think it's during that mileage range for most of us that we begin moving from getting energy primarily from muscle glycogen to getting our energy from only blood glucose (what you're eating on the ride) and body fat. You can lessen this effect by eating properly on the ride and maximizing your blood glucose. But even if you're eating 250 to 300 calories per hour (and burning in excess of 500 calories per hour), you will have to start using body fat after the muscle glycogen is expended. Most folks have 2000 to 3000 calories readily available from muscle glycogen, which may last 4 to 5 hours before it's pretty much expended. Also, you will start to suffer much of the same symptoms if you don't hydrate properly during the ride.

On any long ride, the most important eating and drinking takes place in the first 3 hours. You do that right, you're probably good for the distance because your appetites will take over and tell you what to do.

It usually takes me about 20-30 kilometres to warm up, then I'm good for about another 100km. Then I might hit a low spot for 30k. Once I'm through that, I perk up for 50k or so. For me, this seems a pretty consistent cycle, so to speak.

I'd concur that it's important to keep calories going in from the start. That's why I like some kind of liquid food to supplement the "nibbling." I always begin with at least one banana in jersey pocket, a bottle of some kind of energy drink and a bottle of Boost/Ensure, also in a pocket.

Sounds like you're not eating enough in the first few hours and are having a minibonk. Machka's prescription should be very helpful.

Are you starting the ride with faster people and then end up getting dropped? It's very tempting to go with the faster people, but you have to be very careful not to blow through all the glycogen and end up with leaden legs. I've spent many hours regretting hanging on ten minutes too long with the faster riders.

I do not think kk4df is correct that we uniformly use up all the glycogen and then switch to blood glucose at around fifty miles. Maybe he/she can provide a cite for this?

If you keep fueling up at 250 to 300 calories per hour, and you are careful to "avoid unnecessary accelerations" (as Jan Heine says) then it is my understanding that you can avoid using up your muscle glycogen. Instead, at randonneuring speeds, we are getting about half our calories from carbohydrates eaten at 250 to 300 calories per hour, and half from burning on-board fat -- at least, that is what the Hammer people claim, and is the same as in the book I'm reading called Paleo Diet for Athletes, by Professor Loren Cordain and Joe Friel. The quote from the book is "Fat burns in a carbohydrate fire", which is why it is so important to keep eating carbs as you ride.

Anyway, certainly it has been my experience that fueling properly and riding at a steady, hard pace does not empty your legs of muscle glycogen. If it did, then there are quite a few very hard sprints that I've done at the end of a 200K or on the second or third day of a 1200Km that I don't think would be possible with "empty" legs.

Could be that the Gatorade doesn't sit well with your stomach, too. That was the case for me.

I used to experience the same consistent sluggishness accompanied by a gray gloomy feeling at the 60 to 80 mile point of all my long rides regardless of effort or terrain. I'm more consistent about the quantity and especially the regularity of calories and amount of water I drink now and rarely experience it. I think (but am not sure) that it had more to do with hydration than with calories.

i think everything posted thus far is as good as gold. i've heard it from others on century rides that around mile 80 " my butt hurts, my legs hurt and my back/neck are killing me" or " i start looking for a grassy spot on the road side where i can crash and lie there till the snows come to cover me up". but just like everyone else has said, gear down, slow down, eat something, drink something and by mile 90 you're singing again. for what its worth i now train for longer events[160-200 miles], i still run into the same walls except now they're at mile 150 instead of 80. enjoy the ride and stretch your long days out gradually.:thumb:

for what its worth i now train for longer events[160-200 miles], i still run into the same walls except now they're at mile 150 instead of 80. enjoy the ride and stretch your long days out gradually.:thumb:

This is consistent with my experience too. Basically, I tend to hit a slump at about n-20 where n is the number of miles I'm riding that day. I'm thinking it's purely mental.

well, it happened again on my 600k. I am convinced it has to do with using up my reserves and screwing up the transition. I ate quite a bit more than I'm used to eating early on. On edit: I'm considering the idea that it may be hydration.

I probably could hang with the faster riders at the 100 mile mark, but I'm way behind by that point. I didn't stay with them at all and still blew up. In fact, I was riding by myself. One of the more experienced riders suggested Perpetuem, so I'm going to try that. I'm also going to try to improve my training.

Now that I know everything is going to be fine at 90 miles, I doubt that it's mental. When it first happened I was very concerned. Once my body gets into starvation mode, I can really ride hard without any problem as long as I keep myself fed.

There's no physiological reason for you to experience something or the other at a given "mileage mark."

Whatever you feel, is a function of how you draw down your metabolites (glycogen?) not any particular time or distance value. Or more likely, how you begin to drink and sustain yourself.

But most likely, you start these rides with a particular level of emotion, and when you "settle in" you go through period that seems tougher before finding your sustainable pace.

If indeed, you feel a specific "heaviness" in your legs, it may, or may not have something to do with how much sodium you are ingesting and how you may or may not have genetic aspects of your kidneys and or blood vessels in your legs that result in a "pooling" of fluids in your extremities.

All of this, is pretty a much a "pool" of something or other........

I have similar issues sometimes, and it is almost always light-to-moderate dehydration combined with salt and electrolite depletion. Just consuming calories does not alleviate or prevent it from happening. Drinking enough water and consuming 150-250 calories per hour of regular food works for me. Just make sure that the foods have enough salt to replenish what you are losing through sweat, and that the calories that you consume consist of a good mix of complex carbohydrates, fats, and maybe some protein to keep your stomach settled while riding.

I've found that if I make sure to drink enough water such that I have to get off the bike to use the restroom every 90 minutes or so, and that the foods that I eat while riding include extra salt and that the calories do not all come from just processed starches and sugars, then I'm fine.

I prefer regular foods that are easy to carry and consume while riding, and just drink water. Foods that include some fiber (whole-grains), with a little bit of fat, and/or protein also help keep my stomach settled while I'm riding. Foods that don't break or crumble easily are easier to fish out of a little paper/plastic bag in your jersey pocket. Foods that really work for me include snack crackers (whole-wheat, cheese or peanut butter sandwich crackers, etc.), pretzels, roasted and salted nuts, string cheese, fruit newtons, bananas, dried fruit, and granola bars. I usually carry a gu-gel or two, but only consume those as a last resort.

Take care.

I've found that if I make sure to drink enough water such that I have to get off the bike to use the restroom every 90 minutes or so, and that the foods that I eat while riding include extra salt and that the calories do not all come from just processed starches and sugars, then I'm fine. I find this advice - most distressing. I believe you may be in error. Oh, oh, please reconsider, before posting this misleading information in the future.


I usually carry a gu-gel or two, but only consume those as a last resort. Right, and of course you make this statement - because all those other salty snacks and water you previously ate and drank worked so well????????????

Signed,
The New Kinder - Gentler - Dr. Dick

I find this advice - most distressing. I believe you may be in error. Oh, oh, please reconsider, before posting this misleading information in the future.

Right, and of course you make this statement - because all those other salty snacks and water you previously ate and drank worked so well????????????

Signed,
The New Kinder - Gentler - Dr. Dick

If you're going to take the time to basically call someone out, you ought to take the time to substantiate your argument.

If he's stopping to pee every hour and a half, it seems unlikely to me that he is dehydrated. So what's wrong with his argument?

If you're going to take the time to basically call someone out, you ought to take the time to substantiate your argument.I'm not making an argument that needs any "substantiation," - whatever that may "mean" to you. Do you want to "throw down" - 'cause I'm built Ford Tough! Grrr.




If he's stopping to pee every hour and a half, it seems unlikely to me that he is dehydrated. So what's wrong with his argument? Did you even think about the previous post? Just how would you go about "drinking to produce bladder fullness per ninety minute schedule?" Answer - you can't, nor should you try.......

For this limited, lay discussion, one might attempt to remind cyclists that if they "have NOT pissed" for 90 or so minutes, but they "usually" do in normal life - then maybe they should drink more, and more often on their ride. But telling some one empty their bladder every ninety minute for good health - of gosh - I'm afraid to say it -but YES - trying to pee every ninety minutes is a "DickCranium Award Winning idea."

And - for anyone that cares - the "secret" of long distance cycling is to "preserve" NORMAL bodily functions in the face of continuous exercise. If you happen to pee every ninety minutes in your daily life, then go ahead plan for that while riding.

However, in full sized adults, in good urinary health, Dr. Dick would estimate much less frequency.