Tandem Cycling - Thinking about a CF tandem

I know that nobody can make this decision for me, but I would like to get some feedback.
For some time I have been intrigued with the idea of getting a carbon fiber tandem.
Right now my choice would be Calfee because they have the most experience with CF tandems and the price is reasonable compared to other manufacturers.
My wife and I have been riding tandems for 25 years. Our first tandem was custom built by Andy Gilmour out of Columbus steel tubing. After a number of years it became appearant that the design did not accomodate the stoker very well resulting a jarring ride. It was also not very light weight.
We decided to look for a replacement and test rode a steel Comotion with a beam and a Santana Sovereign with aluminum frame. The Santana was by far the better bike for us and we went ahead and got it. That was in 1996. Since then we have really enjoyed the bike and parts have worn, parts have been upgraded. Having ridden steel , aluminum and carbon fiber single bikes over the years I know the benefits of carbon fiber being light weight, stiff and providing superior damping of road shock and vibration. Although the Santana rides very smooth for an aluminum bike it still feels like an aluminum bike to me. There are things I could do to make it lighter and ride nicer like a carbon fiber fork and STI shifters. But I am hesitant to keep putting money into it. Although we are not hard core riders, we typically ride twice a week, tandem riding is a source of great enjoyment for us especially when we travel and ride in new places. So here is my case for spending a lot of money on a new CF tandem:

1. It will be lighter, 28 lbs vs 35 lbs.

2. It will be more comfortable to ride.

3. It will enhance the enjoyment of riding a tandem together.

I spoke at length with Mike at Calfee and really wanted to do a test ride before placing an order.
He offered a test ride on a medium/small bike that they have for demos.
I told him that a medium was too big for me and I could probably ride it if he put on a short stem but it may not feel right and I would then be dissapointed and not get a true feel of how the bike rides.
He told me that was probably going to be the case and also that the bike has couplers which also would affect the feel. So in the end he recommended that we come to the factory in Santa Cruz and discuss what what our needs are and he assured me they would be able to satisfy us without a test ride.
He offered to provide some references which I am waiting for. I have heard nothing but positive things about Calfee tandems. The truth is I can't really afford one right now but I know this is going to be a long process and wanted to get started on it. Since my older daughter is graduating from UCLA in a few months we be in a better financial situation later this year. It still makes me feel queasy spending $5K on a tandem frame. I am hoping I can sell the Santana for enough money to pay for the new parts. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks - Joel

For a very thorough review of one person's experience with a CF tandem take a look at...

http://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem.html

Although it could be sub-conscience, I'll assume your list is in order of priority.

#1) To save 7 lbs on a tandem + team weight seems silly to me. Especially since 35lbs is not a heavy tandem by any stretch of the imagination. It's a good sturdy middle of the bell curve weight. Yes, there are lighter, but so what? There's a bunch out there that are 10-15lbs heavier too.

#2) Maybe/probably, but no guarantees.

#3) Not sure how this is a result of either 1 or 2. When I'm out riding I don't think to myself, "Wow, I'm having such a great ride today because of my steel/CF frame I'm riding today." But if you do, then it might.

I agree that weight and material may not make a rider faster, but I can say that with my eyes closed I can tell the difference on my 17lb carbon bike than on my 21lb steel bike (singles). I enjoy the ride of the carbon bike more, and it feels like it moves with me a bit more than me moving it. On my tandem I find that the stoker following my leads makes more of a difference than anything else, although I assume that you have that figured out by now. Not a lot of help, but I've never heard anything bad about Calfee's bikes.

Although it could be sub-conscience, I'll assume your list is in order of priority.

#1) To save 7 lbs on a tandem + team weight seems silly to me. Especially since 35lbs is not a heavy tandem by any stretch of the imagination. It's a good sturdy middle of the bell curve weight. Yes, there are lighter, but so what? There's a bunch out there that are 10-15lbs heavier too.

If I think in terms of 3.5 lbs less weight on a single, then it does not seem so silly.
On flats and downhill yes it does not matter, but uphill I think it matters although its a small amount.
If I think if it terms of total weight reduction including bike and riders its 2.5%

#2) Maybe/probably, but no guarantees.

No way of knowing until I actually got the bike. Thats probably the hardest part to get over.

#3) Not sure how this is a result of either 1 or 2. When I'm out riding I don't think to myself, "Wow, I'm having such a great ride today because of my steel/CF frame I'm riding today." But if you do, then it might.

Like I said before I have ridden steel, aluminum and CF over a 30 year period. Yes I can tell the difference and yes it is a factor of my enjoyment. Even within CF there is great variation. I like my Trek 5200 but when I test rode a Time VXR it blew the doors off the Trek. Other CF bikes were not any better than my Trek old as it is.

While I can not address the Calfee in particular, I can comment on going from a aluminum Santana Sovereign to a carbon tandem (in our case and Arizona). While our new bike is lighter, it is not the aspect of the upgrade that has made the most difference for us. The two things that have made a night and day change are the custom geometry and the shock absorption of the new frame. We got a very long stoker compartment, which has made huge difference in my wife's enjoyment of tandeming. More importantly, the carbon frame is so much more comfortable that my wife has willingly given up her shock post that she was so attached to on the Sovereign. She really feels that she is more comfortable on the carbon frame without a shock post than she was on the Santana with one.

Not to say we were unhappy with our Sovereign, we rode it for many years and really enjoyed it. It is just that our carbon frame works much better for us.

Hope this helps,
Scott Harper

We paid ASU_GT a visit, and checked out his Dragonfly. If you had been ideating about a carbon framed tandem, seeing this Dragonfly in person would not tend to dissuade you. Does this look like it would be fun and fast, or what?

I know that nobody can make this decision for me, but I would like to get some feedback.



So here is my case for spending a lot of money on a new CF tandem:

1. It will be lighter, 28 lbs vs 35 lbs.

2. It will be more comfortable to ride.

3. It will enhance the enjoyment of riding a tandem together.




I have heard nothing but positive things about Calfee tandems. The truth is I can't really afford one right now but I know this is going to be a long process and wanted to get started on it. Since my older daughter is graduating from UCLA in a few months we be in a better financial situation later this year. It still makes me feel queasy spending $5K on a tandem frame. I am hoping I can sell the Santana for enough money to pay for the new parts. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks - Joel


You want my opinion? It's so very apparent that you really want one, so....go ahead and order one. You can always find rational justifications if you look hard enough. For example, if you had been thinking of buying a new car then by simply putting that off for 6-8 months the insurance cost saved alone might help to finance a large portion of it! :D


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Disclaimer: we're very new to the world of tandems. My wife and I test rode three brands: Santana Sovereign, Co-motion "something", and daVinci Joint Venture. Our only comparison in terms of ride was our Giant OCR1 singles. The particular co-motion suffered from not having a CF fork and thus transmitted more rode vibration. The Santana and Joint Venture both had very good rides. The daVinci rides like a Cadillac, albeit one that handles really well. I now cringe at the thought of getting on my road bike. More exotic materials (CF) do give the designer additional degrees of freedom and in my next life I might give it a try, but my advice would be to definitely ride 3-4 brands and do the economic trade. The new steel high-end tandems are decently light and my wife and I are not featherweights (maybe 340+ lbs as a team) so I'm not sweating 6-7 lbs especially after you add rack, trunk, cages, pedals and such

This coming from an old geek who has 2 GPS cyclometers on one bicycle.

Seems easy enough to me, buy the best bike/frame you can afford at the moment and make the best of it. Life is too short as we all know, do what you like and enjoy every moment!

I think you need to look at how you want to use the bike - As an example, if you plan to travel with it extensively, I would avoid the CF if only because nicks, scratches, and dings have more serious consequences on a CF frame than a Steel/Al/Ti frame.

Having damaged/repaired 3 Al and 1 CF frame, Steel, Ti and the exotic alloys are my favorite frame materials.

As far as the weight is concerned, personally I have more pounds to lose before I would worry about the weight of my frame.

I would have a very good friend to put the first scratch in the frame for you.

Seems easy enough to me, buy the best bike/frame you can afford at the moment and make the best of it. Life is too short as we all know, do what you like and enjoy every moment!

Great Advice!

However, Spending $10k on a bike verses spending $2.5k on a bike does not necessarily translate into a better tandem experience for the rider(s). It's all about expectations & feeling good about your ride!

Have ridden our Zona carbon fiber custom tandem for over 25,000 miles.
Unfortunately the builder, Bob Davis, has retired from the bike building business.
Enclosed some photos, including close up of the lugwork (with window cutouts).
For all the reasons that have been mentioned carbon is a great choice. Pricey, yes, but so is a good custom steel or alu or magnesium tandem.
We have ridden/tested over 30 brands/models of tandems (including a Gilmour) from custom to US production to imports in our 34+ years of tandeming.
Buy the best you can afford . . . in the long run it's cheaper than upgrading an older bike.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Thanks everyone for all the great feedback.
I don't there was any thing said that was not helpful.
If anything I think it confirmed I still want to pursue it.
And that picture of the Dragonfly is really convincing!

Joel

More importantly, the carbon frame is so much more comfortable that my wife has willingly given up her shock post that she was so attached to on the Sovereign. She really feels that she is more comfortable on the carbon frame without a shock post than she was on the Santana with one.

Not to say we were unhappy with our Sovereign, we rode it for many years and really enjoyed it. It is just that our carbon frame works much better for us.

Hope this helps,
Scott Harper

Good point about the shock post. Our Santana originally came with a Tamer telescoping one and after few years my wife complained it was not working anymore. Replaced it with a Rockshox and then a few years later with the current Thudbuster ST. It would be nice to not need one.

Have ridden our Zona carbon fiber custom tandem for over 25,000 miles.
Unfortunately the builder, Bob Davis, has retired from the bike building business.
Enclosed some photos, including close up of the lugwork (with window cutouts).
For all the reasons that have been mentioned carbon is a great choice. Pricey, yes, but so is a good custom steel or alu or magnesium tandem.
We have ridden/tested over 30 brands/models of tandems (including a Gilmour) from custom to US production to imports in our 34+ years of tandeming.
Buy the best you can afford . . . in the long run it's cheaper than upgrading an older bike.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Oh, thats a great picture of your garage. Looks like lots of great memories on that wall behind you.

Increased isolation from road shock is probably the most quantifiable difference the average tandem team will experience in making a switch from an alloy frame to one that is fabricated from composites. The difference is something that can be perceived on the first ride over familiar roads used when riding any other type of frame material.

All of the other differences such as reduced weight, etc... are secondary and of marginal value to all but the most elite teams and can be matched by other very lightweight frames. However, once again, the discriminator between a pair of 25lb tandems where one is aluminum, magnesium or perhaps even steel and the other is a composite frame would be the degree of isolation from road shock.

We had the opportunity to test a Calfee at home and were not impressed. For our test ride we swapped our wheels, seats, and seatposts and rode on roads and bumps that we are very familiar with. After back-to-back rides against our aluminum Trek it did not ride any smoother, which matches the owners opinion of the ride. If at all possible get a test ride and then ride your current bike over the same course. For comparison purposes you should at least use the same tires at the same pressure. The builder can tell you what team weight the bike is made for, but I don't know if that's much of a factor or if it's just a sales pitch.

We had the opportunity to test a Calfee at home and were not impressed.

Was it an older model with the internal tube? Or, was it one of the newer, open frame designs? In fact, do you remember what year model it was? Was it made for your friends or did they buy it second hand?


The builder can tell you what team weight the bike is made for, but I don't know if that's much of a factor or if it's just a sales pitch.

At least at present it's a factor. The modulus of the carbon, the tubing dimensions and the amount of hand-wrapped material used at the joints are spec'd based on the team weight and other factors. There were several trade-offs that were made in the design of our frame to come up with the final solution. Moreover, when we initially found the assembled bike to have some stability issues and had not yet isolated the source as the rear wheel, Calfee offered to add more material and rework the back end of the frame to add more stiffness.

We bought a Comotion Machiatto (custom-aluminum) a year ago and have loved every minute on the bike. It's as light as the CF, a few thousand dollars less, and seemingly more durable. It uses a "no lateral tube" design (like Calfee Dragonfly) and has my stoker happy with the CF seatpost with no shock post. It has made us faster (we had a Santana Arriva which my LBS took in trade).

Hi,

We had an Aluminum Santana for 5-6 years and then bought a calfee in 2005.

We got a test ride on it and it really convinced us.

We have a lot of chip seal roads and the Calfee is much nicer the 3rd hour of the ride.
It steers a little quicker and rides so much better.

I say if you can afford it (and only you can make that choice) go for a carbon tandem.


Rob

Hi,

We had an Aluminum Santana for 5-6 years and then bought a calfee in 2005.

We got a test ride on it and it really convinced us.

We have a lot of chip seal roads and the Calfee is much nicer the 3rd hour of the ride.
It steers a little quicker and rides so much better.

I say if you can afford it (and only you can make that choice) go for a carbon tandem.


Rob

Rob,

Thanks for the direct comparison with the same bike we have.
That makes for a convincing reason to go ahead.

Joel

Was it an older model with the internal tube? Or, was it one of the newer, open frame designs? In fact, do you remember what year model it was? Was it made for your friends or did they buy it second hand?
The bike we tested was custom built for its current owner without the lateral tube. Not sure what year.

If you have the means, I say go for it. We are very happy with our Calfee Dragonfly. Is it lighter? Yes. Is it faster? Yes (but likely b/c we make it go faster). Is it fun to ride? Absolutely! Do we ride more? Yes and we're well into year two on the "new" bike. :thumb:

If you think you get attention riding a tandem, you can count on a lot more. You'll get the local club guys geeking out on your new ride.