Living Car Free - GM/Chysler bankrupcty

I haven't formed much of an opinion yet, but I'm curious as to what those of us in the car-free or car-lite lifestyle feel about GM and Chrysler going bankrupt? i'm open to all opinions.

It's too bad they never made a serious effort to compete with the Asians and Europeans in making smaller, cleaner and more fuel efficient cars, opting instead to keep pushing size and power while spending millions to lobby against tougher fuel and emissions standards. I've only set foot in the United States a few times in the last couple of decades, but I'm always surprised to see those super macho ads on TV pushing gas-guzzling Hummers, pick-up trucks and SUV's. What a shame!

Doesn't effect me one way or the other. Don't drive, however even if I did I would never touch a North American made car.
Since the government of Canada now owns a part of GM, I'd just like to know how much I can sell my portion for. Even if it's $0.01 I'll take it.

It's too bad they never made a serious effort to compete with the Asians and Japanese in making smaller, cleaner and more fuel efficient cars, opting instead to keep pushing size and power while spending millions to lobby against tougher fuel and emissions standards. I've only set foot in the United States a few times in the last couple of decades, but I'm always surprised to see those super macho ads on TV pushing gas-guzzling Hummers, pick-up trucks and SUV's. What a shame!

I know - this was all so predictable. In some number of months, a much smaller GM will most likely emerge. But if they retain their corporate culture of wanting to build muscle cars, I fear this will happen yet again at some point in the future.

Most people seem to hold onto the idea that buiness & gov't leaders actually know what the are
doing and can wave a magic wand to make it happen. 'Taint so.

At best they throw out the best guess and let the people doing the job make it work..or not.

so what happens to the billions we lent them? we better be the first ones paid back.

Companies come ... companies go.

they will emerge from bankruptcy and fail anyway, Ford too

It's too bad they never made a serious effort to compete with the Asians and Japanese in making smaller, cleaner and more fuel efficient cars, opting instead to keep pushing size and power while spending millions to lobby against tougher fuel and emissions standards. I've only set foot in the United States a few times in the last couple of decades, but I'm always surprised to see those super macho ads on TV pushing gas-guzzling Hummers, pick-up trucks and SUV's. What a shame!

+1. The silly thing is that GM's other brands -- Opel, Vauxhall, and if you count them as a cousin, Subaru and a Korean manufacturer whose name escapes me, and GM's Holden brand in Oz -- have made smaller, better-packaged and more efficient cars that GM didn't think to bring to the US.

Ford would be in the same position if they didn't have such huge cash reserves already. Thankfully for them, they have a bit of time to bring their own well-received European models to the States.

Many people forget that GM is so much bigger than Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. The parts contractors from whom they buy their parts also make stuff for other carmakers (I've read of one who makes interior trim pieces not only for GM but also for Ford, Toyota, and Honda). When an operation this size goes down, a lot of people are going to feel it.

Oh, and let me say a bit about the point I've highlighted:


It's too bad they never made a serious effort to compete with the Asians and Japanese in making smaller, cleaner and more fuel efficient cars, opting instead to keep pushing size and power while spending millions to lobby against tougher fuel and emissions standards. I've only set foot in the United States a few times in the last couple of decades, but I'm always surprised to see those super macho ads on TV pushing gas-guzzling Hummers, pick-up trucks and SUV's. What a shame!

While GM was lobbying against emissions standards in the 1970's, Honda was spending its cash in R&D to come up with a way to meet the same emissions standards. Honda's result was the CVCC engine, which made the Civic the first car to meet those standards without requiring a catalytic convertor.

Look at who's doing better now.

/Honda fanboy mode off ;)

I'm glad we quit bailing them out and are letting them go into bankruptcy.

I heard this quote on the radio not too long ago - "Capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without hell."

I wish I could remember who said that.

I know - this was all so predictable. In some number of months, a much smaller GM will most likely emerge. But if they retain their corporate culture of wanting to build muscle cars, I fear this will happen yet again at some point in the future.

I'm not sure "want" was ever the operative word. They made what they could sell at a profit. Given their cost disadvantage, they could never make an inexpensive, fuel efficient car and we weren't in any hurry to buy them from them. They were doing OK in the midsize market but Toyota and Honda were building much better sedans at similar prices and the US car companies were losing market share every year.What they made that we wanted were trucks, suv's, Cadillacs and sports cars. They were priced such that they could sell them at a profit and with relatively little competition. When gas went to $4/gallon they had comparatively few small fuel efficient cars and made almost no money off the ones that they did have. By the time gas prices had retreated, the mortgage/credit crisis hit and people stopped almost all big ticket purchases which put the nail in the coffin of Chrysler and GM. It will be interesting to see if a government guided car company can become competitive or will we as taxpayers be owners of a "Skoda" type of car company building vehicles that the government designs but nobody wants to own?

The silly thing is that GM's other brands -- Opel, Vauxhall, and if you count them as a cousin, Subaru and a Korean manufacturer whose name escapes me

I believe that was Daewoo...

I hate to see the taxpayer saddled with these companies.

Oh, and let me say a bit about the point I've highlighted:



While GM was lobbying against emissions standards in the 1970's, Honda was spending its cash in R&D to come up with a way to meet the same emissions standards. Honda's result was the CVCC engine, which made the Civic the first car to meet those standards without requiring a catalytic convertor.

Look at who's doing better now.

/Honda fanboy mode off ;)

:thumb: Honda has always been a step ahead of the pack. They also have the knack to take a 1.2 litre engine and match it to a tranny that makes it feel and perform like a car with twice as much power. I have had a Honda or two starting with a 1978 Civic 1200 and the current Fit and slightly used CRV we just purchased.

Honda also had a hands off driving system about 20 years ago that didn't require any special wires buried in the pavement, it used a close proximity radar, video cameras that keyed off the paint stripes and a micro processor. I saw a demo at the Sears Point Raceway, and it was impressive to see a string of cars lapping along at highway speeds with the drivers' hands off the steering wheel.

Aaron:)

I haven't formed much of an opinion yet, but I'm curious as to what those of us in the car-free or car-lite lifestyle feel about GM and Chrysler going bankrupt? i'm open to all opinions.

**** em.

On one hand I hate to think of all the lost jobs; people being left in the dust. But on the other hand I hate the vast majority of GM and Chrysler products. Not gonna make me a product I like, then I don't care if your company goes under. Honda will get my money instead.

The ones who are really going to suffer the most are the 20,000 jobs GM is going to cut as a result of the bankruptcy. Where are the unions? You haven't heard a word from them this whole time at all and they really need to stand up to the fact that GM is going to close 20 manufacturing plants and outsouce thousands of jobs!

With this bankruptcy, GM will cut up all those pensions from people who worked their entire lives. Their health insurance is history and they will be forced to apply for medicare! Incredible. I can't believe we are paying billions to deindustrial our nation and outsource thousands of jobs! Heck, John Mccain could have done this job. I'm very dissapointed in Obama.

I hope those losing their jobs find their way to this forum. The only solution for them now is to become car free.

On one hand I hate to think of all the lost jobs; people being left in the dust..

I do too. But, back in the 1920s lots of people, horse shoers, wagon makers, horse pooper scoopers, lost their jobs when car started to become more prevelant. What good would it have done back then to subsidize and bailout the horse buggy industry? Because horse buggies had their day, and that day had passed, they would have been on the public dole forever.

Chrysler has had it's day. They are as irrelevant as horse waste removers in a 1930s city. GM may have some usefulness left, but their usefulness is in building trucks, vans and other utility vehicles. The direction Obama has them goin, building sub compacts, will only put them further in the grave.

I feel that car companies are under share holder pressure to keep growing and bringing out new cars. How much more useful would car manufacturers be to us, if instead of bringing out one or more new cars every year, they brought out a new car every 3-5 years which was radically different and actually made a difference in terms of emissions / comfort / safety etc.

They waste so much money on R&D for 1 mpg, or 1 mph higher top speed. We, as a population, don't require a new car every year let alone 2.

The pressure has been on them and other companies to keep growing, which is completely unsustainable. I'm glad we are going to lose car companies, not because of the people who will lose their jobs - that is sad, but unavoidable - but because maybe it will cause people to rethink how they develop cars.

Of course I know it won't, and we will be back in this situation in another 20 years time, but hey! As brought up in my replies to other threads, I also think that the need to keep expanding is caused by our out of control population growth around the world. As smart / intelligent as we humans claim to be, we act pretty stupidly.

The ones who are really going to suffer the most are the 20,000 jobs GM is going to cut as a result of the bankruptcy. Where are the unions? You haven't heard a word from them this whole time at all and they really need to stand up to the fact that GM is going to close 20 manufacturing plants and outsouce thousands of jobs!

With this bankruptcy, GM will cut up all those pensions from people who worked their entire lives. Their health insurance is history and they will be forced to apply for medicare! Incredible. I can't believe we are paying billions to deindustrial our nation and outsource thousands of jobs! Heck, John Mccain could have done this job. I'm very dissapointed in Obama.

I hope those losing their jobs find their way to this forum. The only solution for them now is to become car free.


Unions are the reason they are in this mess to begin with. Unions and their members got greedy, making $30 an hour and striking because it wasn't enough. Get real. I don't feel sorry for the Unions at all, with the government in control the Unions will still get their money, make no mistake about it they have entirely too much lobbying clout. I feel sorry for the smaller companies that are going to have to lay off people because of this. Those people don't have Unions to pay their bills. Last I heard if you were laid of from GM, GM had to pay your salary for over 2 YEARS because of the unions. Those people can find a new job within 2 years.

The ones who are really going to suffer the most are the 20,000 jobs GM is going to cut as a result of the bankruptcy. Where are the unions? You haven't heard a word from them this whole time at all and they really need to stand up to the fact that GM is going to close 20 manufacturing plants and outsouce thousands of jobs!

With this bankruptcy, GM will cut up all those pensions from people who worked their entire lives. Their health insurance is history and they will be forced to apply for medicare! Incredible. I can't believe we are paying billions to deindustrial our nation and outsource thousands of jobs! Heck, John Mccain could have done this job. I'm very dissapointed in Obama.

I hope those losing their jobs find their way to this forum. The only solution for them now is to become car free.

Sorry, but I just can't agree with this sentiment.

GM was going to go bankrupt no matter what. The unions bargained for contracts, and GM accepted them. However, GM management screwed the company up and those same union workers are going to be hung out to dry. It sucks for them, and I wish it weren't happening. However, the union can't force GM to stay unprofitable. There comes a point where the money runs out, and that time has come.

Obama tried to prevent it from happening, but he had no idea the depth of incompetence in the US auto industry's management. No government official could have solved this problem, I don't care how glorified they are.

You are right about those employees needing to shift their paradigm. So, hey! We don't totally disagree! :thumb:

Here's an idea. He doesn't seem like much of a car free advocate but
his idea for GM would benefit car free people.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=248

Here's an idea. He doesn't seem like much of a car free advocate but
his idea for GM would benefit car free people.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=248

I don't like the guy, but those are some valid points he makes. I for one would love to see bullet trains. We used the mass transit system in Italy (I know it pales in comparison to other parts of Europe, but it is the extent of my experience with trains ok!!!) it was nice and seemed to be efficient. I think traveling the US by train would be great.

In my opinion it is representative of the total failure of the concept of personal motor vehicle travel. We as a society have massively subsidized the personal motor vehicle as a mode of transport, spending hundreds of billions of dollars on an interstate highway system and a network of roads. We have redesigned our cities in order to better support the motor vehicle, we have eliminated most other transit options such as urban street cars and a viable inter-city rail network, and still we cannot manage to keep our motor vehicle manufacturers from failing. When the patient has been on life support for the past 40 years, and now stops breathing, asking what we can do to save him is the wrong question.
The experiment has failed, let's move on.

http://m.detnews.com/detail.jsp?key=470428&rc=top&full=1

My prediction is that GM will soon be making only small cars and they will successfully introduce the Volt. They really have no choice, since they've been directed to do this by the government.

However, the government can force GM to build small cars, but they cannot force American consumers to buy them. consumers will continue to have no interest in buying small cars and electric cars, as long as the government continues to provide cheap gas.

I predict that GM will go out of business trying to follow the liberal dream or myth that "Americans want fuel efficient cars."

http://m.detnews.com/detail.jsp?key=470428&rc=top&full=1


Michigan, which soared the highest during the glory days of the American auto industry, will suffer the greatest under General Motors Corp.'s decision to shutter more plants and shed more workers.

In the latest round of cutbacks, announced Monday as part of GM's historic move to file for bankruptcy, an estimated 8,900 jobs will be lost at GM facilities in Pontiac, Orion Township, Livonia, Flint, and Ypsilanti Township. The cuts will follow the closure of a Grand Rapids stamping plant on Friday that employed hundreds more. Nationwide, GM plans to eliminate 21,000 jobs at 14 plants, plus three warehouses, in eight states.

Michigan's share of the total job loss: 42 percent. And that doesn't count the trickle-down impact on suppliers, stores, real estate and other segments of the state's economy.


Yes, June 1, 2009 was a day which will live in infamy in Michigan. I went to a rally in Lansing and heard Jesse Jackson speak about the failure of global trade to consider the needs of workers and consumers as well as corporations and oligarchs. I didn't agree with everything he said, but he made some good points.

Other regions will soon be in the same boat as Michigan if the recession continues only a few more months. Toyota, Honda, and VW will all be closing plants in our southern and western states before long. With the current global economy, it just makes more sense to build cars in Thailand or Morocco rather than the the US, Europe or Japan. Workers in Thailand are getting two dollars a day, according to Jesse Jackson. Ford started paying American auto workers five dollars more than 100 years ago.

Yes, June 1, 2009 was a day which will live in infamy in Michigan. I went to a rally in Lansing and heard Jesse Jackson speak about the failure of global trade to consider the needs of workers and consumers as well as corporations and oligarchs. I didn't agree with everything he said, but he made some good points.

Other regions will soon be in the same boat as Michigan if the recession continues only a few more months. Toyota, Honda, and VW will all be closing plants in our southern and western states before long. With the current global economy, it just makes more sense to build cars in Thailand or Morocco rather than the the US, Europe or Japan. Workers in Thailand are getting two dollars a day, according to Jesse Jackson. Ford started paying American auto workers five dollars more than 100 years ago.

Must be strange to see our opinions on the same side, but this time mine is right with yours.

I am not anti car and have never claimed to be. But this new kind of bankruptcy has opened my eyes to just how car centric we as a nation, or even as a world economy are. The deal made with GM is a slap in the face of every private person that has even been faced with filing bankruptcy and the executives and presidential staff people responsible for it should be ashamed of what they are doing to the working class and taxpayers of America.

I may be jumping to conclusions here and maybe I should wait to see what happens with this new kind of bankruptcy but even I have a bad feeling about this whole thing.

I may be jumping to conclusions here and maybe I should wait to see what happens with this new kind of bankruptcy but even I have a bad feeling about this whole thing.

Ever since I was a kid I've heard the aphorism "What is good for GM is good for the country." Bankruptcy? It sure seems like we're following GM there. Couldn't all the taxpayer money we've shoveled at wall street have gone toward building better infrastructure? Three trillion or so sounds to me like it could build some passenger rail systems and spruce up some schools maybe provide some health care too.

Ever since I was a kid I've heard the aphorism "What is good for GM is good for the country." Bankruptcy? It sure seems like we're following GM there. Couldn't all the taxpayer money we've shoveled at wall street have gone toward building better infrastructure? Three trillion or so sounds to me like it could build some passenger rail systems and spruce up some schools maybe provide some health care too.

very true. A big problem with national mentality is that it is like the car companies - outdated and unsustainable. We need to innovate, we need to change things, bailing everyone out is only a short term solution. Just as someone above said, what would have happened if we had bailed out all the horse and cart owners back when cars were becoming mainstream?

We need to improve the infrastructure so we don't have to rely on cars, we need to increase investment into greener alternatives.

The Aptera is a cool new vehicle. The company plans to build an all electric and a hybrid model. If the vehicle does what the company claims it can do then there would be no more pollution problems in the USA. The hybrid model will get three-hundred miles per gallon. If a small private company can make such a vehicle then why can't the large automobile manufacturers do it?

I would still prefer excellent mass transit to be available everywhere. No matter how efficient cars become they still take up space and require massive amounts of infrastructure. That being said, I really like the new Camaro (of course I'd get the V-6 not the V-8).

In my opinion it is representative of the total failure of the concept of personal motor vehicle travel. We as a society have massively subsidized the personal motor vehicle as a mode of transport, spending hundreds of billions of dollars on an interstate highway system and a network of roads. We have redesigned our cities in order to better support the motor vehicle, we have eliminated most other transit options such as urban street cars and a viable inter-city rail network, and still we cannot manage to keep our motor vehicle manufacturers from failing. When the patient has been on life support for the past 40 years, and now stops breathing, asking what we can do to save him is the wrong question.
The experiment has failed, let's move on.

Excellent!

Not only did we spend billions on a failed transportation system of motororized transport, but we lost thousands of lives and destroyed hundreds of thousands more fighting other nations for their oil so we could continue our lifestyle. Incredible.

I predict that GM will go out of business trying to follow the liberal dream or myth that "Americans want fuel efficient cars."

It's a myth today because gas is inexpensive but it's going back up and we will be at $4.00 dollars a gallon in two years or less. The speculators are driving the price right back up even though there is excess supply of gas on the market! Once the jobless recovery is in full swing, watch how fast the price of petrol goes right back up. GM better have fuel efficient cars by then or they're finished.

Ever since I was a kid I've heard the aphorism "What is good for GM is good for the country." Bankruptcy? It sure seems like we're following GM there. Couldn't all the taxpayer money we've shoveled at wall street have gone toward building better infrastructure? Three trillion or so sounds to me like it could build some passenger rail systems and spruce up some schools maybe provide some health care too.

That is a very valid point. But what is more disturbing is how this is being done. The restrictions that were added to the personal bankruptcy laws about four years ago made it much harder for people to just walk away from their creditors. But this GM bankruptcy is nothing like the rules for the tax payer. Not only are they being aided by the government they are being rewarded for the job they did getting themselves into this position. The creditors, the tax payer, is being required, not asked, to pay the bankrupt company billions to continue operating with the very same people that took them into bankruptcy in the first place. Major executives and the Union bosses aren’t going to take a cut in pay but tax payers will take a cut in pay by paying higher and more taxes and the workers will take a cut in pay and many will lose their jobs.

GM and Chrysler at least produced a product but Wall Street and the Banks didn’t nor are they required to produce a plan like the auto manufacturers. If we would have let the natural course of the Bankruptcy laws take their course new manufactures would have come in to replace the old ones and the government would have had 3 trillion dollars to create a new infrastructure to help support those new manufacturers.

I personally believe we got the fuzzy end of this sucker and all I can do is wait till the smoke clears to see if anything is done about it. :mad: But it is my hope that I have bought my last ICE vehicle. I could see myself buying an EV if I get to the point where I can’t ride in our little town. But to not have the funding to get a proper mass transit system and yet have enough to spend my future taxes and my grandchildren’s future taxes is at least depressing.

Michael Moore says, "Goodbye, GM (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/goodbye-gm_b_209603.html)".

The Aptera is a cool new vehicle. That being said, I really like the new Camaro (of course I'd get the V-6 not the V-8).

Time will tell whether electric cars will make it "big time". In 2001 about 5 roamed the streets around here. In 2002 about 10 roamed the streets. I got an electric motor for my trike.

Forward to 2009: about 8 all electric cars roam the streets (including my 3-wheel microcar). Why less? GEM failed and closed, Zap failed and closed, Zenn is barely hanging on. All the renderings of the Alius, Aptera, Venture 1 did not appear overnight. All are terrific- I hope they do appear!

More electric bicycles, more of those buzzy 2-stroke bikes.

Maybe Canada will send a Camaro, or Mexico will send a Topaz or Azul or whatever they build........ :D

The Aptera is a cool new vehicle. The company plans to build an all electric and a hybrid model. If the vehicle does what the company claims it can do then there would be no more pollution problems in the USA. The hybrid model will get three-hundred miles per gallon. If a small private company can make such a vehicle then why can't the large automobile manufacturers do it?


It remains to be seen whether a small private company can indeed make such a vehicle. And it's unlikely that they will be more than a drop in the bucket for the foreseeable future. Aptera will probably build less than a thousand cars. Annual new car production in the USA alone runs between 10 million and 17 million.

You might say that Ford and GM went from building 1000 vehicles to building millions in the space of a few short years early in the 20th century. But remember that there were daring private investors and bankers in Michigan who provided leverage and credit to the auto pioneers. These are the unsung heroes of the Auto Age.

In the current economic crisis, there are no daring investors or banks who are willing or able to provide the billions it would take to launch an innovative car like the Aptera. That cash is mostly unavailable today due to the credit crisis and lack of investor confidence. Money's not only unavailable to established companies like GM, it's also unavailable to small startup companies like Aptera. There is no way (barring investment by a national government) that any company will be able to introduce electric vehicles in quantities that will make any difference on a national or global scale.

Sadly, until a couple years ago, one company was in a position to introduce an electric car in significant quantities, and had plans to do so. That company, of course, was General Motors. So it goes.

It's a myth today because gas is inexpensive but it's going back up and we will be at $4.00 dollars a gallon in two years or less. The speculators are driving the price right back up even though there is excess supply of gas on the market! Once the jobless recovery is in full swing, watch how fast the price of petrol goes right back up. GM better have fuel efficient cars by then or they're finished.

Then that will be another speculative bubble, and the prices will soon crash as quickly as they rose. Been there done that--less than a year ago.

IMO, only a transparent and permanent rise in oil prices is going to "fuel" investment in non-petrol cars by investors and consumers alike. And the only way to engineer that is to put a tax on energy--preferably a revenue-neutral pay-at-the-pump tax of at least two dollars.

Here's an interesting video about getting electric cars into the mainstream of our transportation: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/shai_agassi_on_electric_cars.html

The creditors, the tax payer, is being required, not asked, to pay the bankrupt company billions to continue operating with the very same people that took them into bankruptcy in the first place. Major executives and the Union bosses aren’t going to take a cut in pay but tax payers will take a cut in pay by paying higher and more taxes and the workers will take a cut in pay and many will lose their jobs.

Sorry, just about every statement in this paragraph is inaccurate. True, the Bush administration gave the car companies cash. The Obama administration, OTOH, did not give them cash. They (we, the taxpayers) bought shares in a new General Motors corporation. It remains to be seen whether our 70 % ownership will turn out to be profitable.

Second, "the very same people" are NOT running General Motors. The CEO and most of the board of directors were replaced two months ago. The car czar and Obqama himself obviously have taken a big role in running GM strategically.

Third, GM executives and UAW leaders have taken major pay cuts, exceeding those of their workers.

Fourth, there have been no tax increases to pay for GM or for any other stimulus efforts. President Obama has cut taxes, and he has promised that he will not raise taxes for anyone until the recession is over. I am getting very tired of this baldfaced lie that Obama has or will raise taxes. (I know that you personally, Robert, are not lying--you actually believe the lies that have been told to you by disgruntled politicians who will do or say just about anything to discredit the Administration.)

GM, Chrysler, and Ford are dinosaurs, and their Ice Age has come. They've been making crappy, lumbering vehicles for years. There's simply too much capacity, the industry has to contract, and to abuse another metaphor, the weakest of the herd are not going to make it.
Bankruptcy is not going to change that. Companies like suppliers are going to get stiffed, plants will close, dealers will close, many jobs will be lost. Institutional investors and investment banks will get money, and the taxpayer will foot the bill for it. How many billions could have been saved if the government did not try to prevent the inevitable despite the protests of the people?

Sorry, just about every statement in this paragraph is inaccurate. True, the Bush administration gave the car companies cash. The Obama administration, OTOH, did not give them cash. They (we, the taxpayers) bought shares in a new General Motors corporation. It remains to be seen whether our 70 % ownership will turn out to be profitable.



Roody,

It's ironic, but if you think about it - YOU (and every tax paying American out there) must buy a GM car to see this profit. The failure of this company is NOW directly in the hands of the public of which is 70% the owner!

And wouldn't you agree that it is now truly a conflict of interest if a Tax paying American bought a Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, BMW, Audi....etc....

What do you think about the tax paying people who bash GM now?

It makes me truly wonder why Obama would pour billions into this company - why did he think it was a good investment for us all? Anyone have any conspiracy theories they'd like to share?

At times the rules of the game escape me.

Roody,

It's ironic, but if you think about it - YOU (and every tax paying American out there) must buy a GM car to see this profit. The failure of this company is NOW directly in the hands of the public of which is 70% the owner!

And wouldn't you agree that it is now truly a conflict of interest if a Tax paying American bought a Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, BMW, Audi....etc....

What do you think about the tax paying people who bash GM now?

At times the rules of the game escape me.

The horse is out of the barn or the water is over the bridge, whatever you like. There is nothing we can do about it now and no one cared what we thought before. There are no rules because they changed them in the middle of the game.

We can however support Asian bike manufacturers and buy Treks, Giants, Specialized and any number of other bikes.

Its a cultural thing in my opinion. For years and years Americans wanted big gas guzzling monster cars, and the American manufacturers gave them to the public. In the 60s the Japanese came on the scene and built this reputation for reliability. When the SUV got popular the Japanese started having a car lineup of big, gas guzzling vehicles alongside fuel effecient, reliable economy cars (my friends Toyota Tundra makes my Ford F150 look like a baby truck).
What happened is that created a brand loyalty towards Japanese cars among American consumers, especially when many of the Japanese vehicles sold in the US are made here as well in US plants, so people often consider them as much an american vehicle as a japanese one.
The japanese offered a full lineup of vehicles from economy vehicles, hybrids, crazy big pickup trucks, etc, along with reliability, and generally a better luxury package for the same price as American.
Did the American companies ever have any hope of surviving? They did not evolve and adapt. The Japanese did. It was hubris on the part of the Americans

If anything, in my opinion...Obama just pulled a fast one on the American people.

The company so much hated, despised, and looked down upon is now owned by these very people. It's success or it's speculated impending failure is owned by these very people. Bottom line, you'll either pat yourself on the back if it succeeds, or flog yourself if it fails - there is no one to praise or to blame but you, and you have the power to influence what this manufacturer makes - as you've always had.

It's such an interesting twist of fate. The thing you despised the most, you now must love.

Maybe Obama is the Buddhist monk (in disguise) who told Bob Dylan - "The answer my friend is not blowing in the wind, it is at the tip of your nose"

But good old Bob probably concluded that the line was difficult to put into a melody so he shortened it. Misleading a whole generation of the populace.

The world seemed so much simpler when I was a kid.

Michael Moore says, "Goodbye, GM (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/goodbye-gm_b_209603.html)".

Moore's thoughts on this subject always make a lot of sense. It's unfortunate that noone will ever take him seriously.

--------

I'm not so quick to blame the lack of small cars for the demise of the US automakers, or think that it's the solution to their problem.

I feel that if it hadn't been for the truck and SUV business they would been out of business a long time ago. They established a niche and played to it rather successfully.

The people who have been buying US-made cars haven't really been buying small cars, and the people who have been buying small cars haven't wanted to buy US cars.

Oh man, my mind is racing at the moment....but another way of thinking about this.....

Obama's administration just put a MARK on every American out there.

All he has to do is drive down a street and tally up the new cars bought after June 1 2009, and in an instant he will have a count of which people have a true understanding of what their government is up to.

Those that have GM cars in the driveway - understand, and those that don't are either anti-American or have no clue to what their government is doing or has done.

Wow.

Oh man, my mind is racing at the moment....but another way of thinking about this.....

Obama's administration just put a MARK on every American out there.

All he has to do is drive down a street and tally up the new cars bought after June 1 2009, and in an instant he will have a count of which people have a true understanding of what their government is up to.

Those that have GM cars in the driveway - understand, and those that don't are either anti-American or have no clue to what their government is doing or has done. Wow.

Ummm everyone should go into hock to buy a piece of crap why exactly???? I know Bush told us 8 years ago to go out and spend spend spend, but a. there's no more money out there (at least credit) and b. alot of people are spent-out. Hell, I'd buy a Toyota just to thumb my nose at the gubm't for pulling this whole shenanigan on us!!