General Cycling Discussion - Red Lights & Stop Signs

I don't really understand something, so maybe someone can clear this up for me. I see/read about cyclists who move up between lanes of cars waiting in traffic or at red lights so they can be at the head of the line (or they just blow through the light, but that's a different can of worms).

I consider myself a vehicle when I am on the road. Which means I am subject to the rules of the road. When I am approaching a red light or stop sign, I take the lane and I get in line behind the car in front of me to wait for the red to change. Just like the cars around me. I sit there, sometimes pretty far back, and I move with traffic and wait my turn to cross the intersection, like I would in a car. Sometimes it takes me 5 minutes to get through the intersection, like it would had I been in my car. Since I *am* a vehicle, I do as other vehicles do.

It seems to me that I never read about anyone else on these boards doing this, and yet everyone insists they are vehicles and want to be treated like vehicles, but waiting in line like a car doesnt apply? If it is case of cyclists being impatient and not wanting to sit in traffic, how is this attitude any different than a motorist that doesn't want to be stuck behind a slow cyclist? It only slows your commute by a few minutes, and it is ok for someone to take the lane and slow down motorists, but not for cars to slow down a cyclist?

Or, is there some safety issue I am not aware of that makes sitting in line to go through a red light dangerous to the cyclist?

p.s. If you sit in line like I do, sorry, I never read about it on these boards but I certainly read about/see videos of/see real life incidences of cyclists riding up the lane past cars to get to the front of the line at a stop.

I have been rear ended waiting in traffic lines.

I have been rear ended waiting in traffic lines.

And you can be rear ended if you are taking the lane, too, if some moron comes flying up behind you. So why is it safer to take the lane while moving but not to wait at a stop?

From a safety stand point, I'd rather be at the front and get through the intersection fast and back into a bike lane. I figure if I sat back my visibility as a bicycle is lower and cars are going to want to pass at unsafe distance in order to get themselves through the intersection. No one has given me grief for doing this yet, and given that most cars move fairly slow off the line, I tend to get out of everyone's way much sooner.

And you can be rear ended if you are taking the lane, too, if some moron comes flying up behind you. So why is it safer to take the lane while moving but not to wait at a stop?

Because the vehicles keep moving and then stopping. It only take one vehicle to start a chain reaction, bumping the vehicles in front of them.

I don't wait in the lines.
I split the lane up to the front.
It is legal in Texas and California.

It seems to me that I never read about anyone else on these boards doing this.

p.s. If you sit in line like I do, sorry, I never read about it on these boards but I certainly read about/see videos of/see real life incidences of cyclists riding up the lane past cars to get to the front of the line at a stop.

Some of us don't talk about how we ride. Some of us just ride. And if we talk, we talk about the ride.

Because the vehicles keep moving and then stopping. It only take one vehicle to start a chain reaction, bumping the vehicles in front of them.

I don't wait in the lines.
I split the lane up to the front.
It is legal in Texas and California.

Fair enough.

However, it just seems to me like it is yet another thing that will get motorists pissed off at cyclists :(

I'll wait on the white line between the rightmost through lane and the right turn lane. It gives me a clear view, keeps me from inhaling as much crap, and it feels safer. And it's legal. I don't lean against vehicles at the light, and I don't slow traffic by doing this. What makes you assume bicyclists are doing this just for the purpose of being first in line?

When there's no right turn lane, and the rightmost through lane is very narrow, I'll get in line. Whenever you're standing between bumpers just a few feet fore and aft, it's natural to be a bit concerned. There are drivers that don't respect your right to be in the lane and will take the opportunity to show you how they feel as ride your wheel through the intersection. It's the option I take when there are no other options.

Its never bothered me. I'm not too concerned about bicycles or motorcycles splitting lanes and moving up to the front of stopped traffic. That way I know where they are. But splitting lanes through slow moving traffic is different - cars can change lanes pretty quickly and cut you off. Just my two cents.

What's normal and expected in one location, will be unexpected, dangerous, and draw the ire of motorists in another location. Even within a city, different regions have different expectations.

If you wait at an intersection in Pune for the traffic to clear, you will not get through until 11:00 at night. You have to pick someone who looks weak, and go. If you do that in Peoria where there's 1/100th the traffic, you're dead.

So the question is, in your location, are motorists expecting bikes to be moving between lines of cars to the front, or aren't they?

First, you should always do what you is safe for you since no one else will for your safety.

Second, most motorists really don't care where you are as long as you're not in their way. You don't earn any brownie points for yourself or other cyclists by waiting in line with cars.

And finally, although bicycles are legal vehicles, they have almost no similarity with cars. Weight, speed, and visibility are drastically different. When you're riding a bicycle, remember that it's a bicycle, not a car. Be mindful of its limitations and take advantage of its strengths.

First, you should always do what you is safe for you since no one else will for your safety.

Second, most motorists really don't care where you are as long as you're not in their way. You don't earn any brownie points for yourself or other cyclists by waiting in line with cars.

And finally, although bicycles are legal vehicles, they have almost no similarity with cars. Weight, speed, and visibility are drastically different. When you're riding a bicycle, remember that it's a bicycle, not a car. Be mindful of its limitations and take advantage of its strengths.

You just said it all real good.

As a general rule, at a traffic light I stop but will move up to the front of the line as far to the right as I can be without being in the way of anyone making a right turn. If I have to make a left turn I take the lane and move as far forward as safe or follow the other vehicles through the turn. Some of my friends modify that by moving to the right front fender of a left turning vehicle.

If there is no turning lane I will take the lane if the car in front of me is making a right and if it is not making a right I will pull to the crosswalk on the lead car’s right. But I will not split traffic at a light and have to try and out race two cars through an intersection. Now that is in California where right turns on a red light are legal and turn lanes are common place. I also live in a bike friendly small town. However I ride the same way in Orange County so I believe it is pretty common practice.

Second, most motorists really don't care where you are as long as you're not in their way. You don't earn any brownie points for yourself or other cyclists by waiting in line with cars.


Damn. And here I thought I was going to get the Super Cyclist of the Day Award, with included cookies and milk. :p

Or, is there some safety issue I am not aware of that makes sitting in line to go through a red light dangerous to the cyclist?

The safest place for a bicyclist to wait out a red light is lane splitting at the head of the line*, stopped just kitty corner off the front car, trying to make your butt look as big as possible. By waiting in front of a car like that, the driver will very likely have seen you. Once the light changes, a bicycle can out-accelerate a car for the first 20 feet or so. This means that you'll likely be through the intersection and safely in a bike lane before the first car catches up to you - and that driver will have seen you. If you're going straight and that first car decides to turn right (perhaps without signaling), the driver will have seen you and you'll also be out of their way before they can even make the right turn. If you're making a left (and lane split between the left turn lane and the straight through lane), you'll be safely in an empty zone before the first cars pass 10 feet to your left and 10 feet to your right.

* To the right of the rightmost straight through lane, or to the right of the rightmost left turn lane, or in rare cases to the right of the rightmost right turn lane.

If you wait in line behind other cars, a large gap may open up ahead of you as the cars ahead of you pull away. Drivers behind you may end up passing you. A yellow light runner may come flying up behind you without having seen you. (The car that passed you will have blocked the light runner's view.) Also - you might get caught by a yellow light. Most yellow light cycles aren't long enough for a bike to get through an intersection. This means you might still be in the intersection when the cross traffic gets a green light.

BTW, I'm in California and here it is legal to lane split between stopped traffic. It is very common for motorcycles to lane split on the freeway during commute jams. Even though they are only supposed to do that when the traffic is stopped fully, you can expect motorcycles to filter between cars whenever traffic slows to say 30.

Reason: Lane splitting is not legal in Illinois.

Don't think of it as lane splitting. Think of it as following your lane as far as you can. In other words, your bike lane, which extends all the way to the intersection. And even if no bike lane is marked, pretend you have a 2 inch wide bike lane - because you really do: If traffic were moving and you were keeping to the right, you'd be creating an impromptu narrow bike lane.

Since I *am* a vehicle, I do as other vehicles do.

It seems to me that I never read about anyone else on these boards doing this, and yet everyone insists they are vehicles and want to be treated like vehicles, but waiting in line like a car doesnt apply?


Motorcycles are vehicles, they split lanes.
A bike is more similar to a motorcycle than it is to a car.
If you want to have a model for acting like a vehicle, look at the motorcycle, not the car.

why should I wait in line? The traffic is caused by cars, not by bicycles. If it were a line of bicycles I would wait. It is just one more of the advantages to riding a bicycle.

When I am approaching a red light or stop sign, I take the lane and I get in line behind the car in front of me to wait for the red to change.
...
It seems to me that I never read about anyone else on these boards doing this,...

I do what you do. I guess I don't talk about it much because I live in a small town where the situation doesn't come up very often, and when it does it is usually at one particularly busy intersection. But when cars get backed up at that intersection, I get in line and I wait my turn. I do that because to do otherwise at that intersection would be dangerous. I'd be risking a right or left hook. I'd be confusing the drivers. And I'd be making them angry too. So I am polite and I follow the rules and I wait in line.

Lane splitting is illegal here. I wait in line...I gotta stop anyway and I can move through the intersection when the light changes as fast as any car. In over 40 years I have never been rear-ended while waiting in line at or moving through an intersection.

That said, if the line is long enough that I would have to wait for multiple cycles of the light...I have no problem using the advantages of being on a bicycle to shorten my own wait time, if the alternative is available, safe and fairly legal. ;)

Don't let the impatience and feeling of entitlement of some cyclists impact how you ride - you do what works best for your safety and comfort.

Motorcycles are vehicles, they split lanes.


Depends on the state. It's illegal here.

Don't think of it as lane splitting. Think of it as following your lane as far as you can. In other words, your bike lane, which extends all the way to the intersection. And even if no bike lane is marked, pretend you have a 2 inch wide bike lane - because you really do: If traffic were moving and you were keeping to the right, you'd be creating an impromptu narrow bike lane.

I never thought of it that way and it does make some sense. I personally am not comfortable with it when there are a lot of cars waiting at the stop, and I absolutely will not do it on the left of the lane, which I see people do frequently.

I know that the left is where people mostly expect to see cars passing, not bikes, and I have actually seen motorists jump in alarm when a cyclist has ridden up the lane to their left. To the right, they at least somewhat seem to expect to see a bike. In my limited experience, anyway.

Motorcycles are vehicles, they split lanes.
A bike is more similar to a motorcycle than it is to a car.
If you want to have a model for acting like a vehicle, look at the motorcycle, not the car.

Only the the butthole motorcylists with chips on their shoulders do it here. It's illegal in Illinois, and I know it totally pisses off motorists when it happens.

Only the the butthole motorcylists with chips on their shoulders do it here. It's illegal in Illinois, and I know it totally pisses off motorists when it happens.

So why are you so concerned about pissed off motorists?

Most of them are pissed when they get behind a wheel.

why should I wait in line? The traffic is caused by cars, not by bicycles. If it were a line of bicycles I would wait. It is just one more of the advantages to riding a bicycle.

And people think motorists have entitlement issues.

:rolleyes:

So why are you so concerned about pissed off motorists?

Most of them are pissed when they get behind a wheel.

Why am I concerned? That's an odd question to ask considering you too read these boards and see what pissed off motorists do to cyclists. Unless you ignore those posts?

I don't believe in entitlement for motor vehicles. Motorists are not entitled to the road any more than a bicyclist is. However, I do believe that 2000 lbs of metal can kill me in an instant and act accordingly. If that means treating a motor vehicle with kid gloves and respect, so be it. I'd rather be alive to ride another day than be killed trying to prove a point.

I consider myself a vehicle when I am on the road. Which means I am subject to the rules of the road.

There is an old saying If that is the law then the law is an ass. Laws specific to trucks and cars cannot be applied to bicycles. Attempting to replace common sense with laws does not work.

I was in central Rome once. They had no traffic lights. The traffic was moving. People were crossing the street. I did not see any danger. Italians navigated the system with common sense not traffic lights.

As far as waiting in line behind stopped cars and moving with them like a vehicle, a bicycle moves at 5-10 mph. Trapping a car behind you is rude and stupid. When cars are not moving, bicycles should be moving, when cars are moving bicycles should not block them.

As far as waiting in line behind stopped cars and moving with them like a vehicle, a bicycle moves at 5-10 mph. Trapping a car behind you is rude and stupid. When cars are not moving, bicycles should be moving, when cars are moving bicycles should not block them.

So, when a car is stopped at a red light or a stop sign, and stop and go traffic is moving at about 5 mph, a bicycle should not be in the line of traffic even though they are perfectly capable of moving at the same speed as the cars at that moment? Or are you saying that taking the lane is rude and stupid since obviously bikes can't go as fast as cars can?

And people think motorists have entitlement issues.

:rolleyes:

well explain to me what benefit could possibly be gained from me waiting in the queue?

- I get to breathe the lovely exhaust fumes
- I get to sit and wait for no reason

It is legal to filter where I am, and motorcycles do it all the time, it doesn't affect motorists and definitely affects my journey time. If I was driving and I saw a cyclist waiting in the queue it would piss me off as a driver because it is a completely ******** thing to do UNLESS there is no other option or it is illegal.

The safest place for a bicyclist to wait out a red light is lane splitting at the head of the line*, stopped just kitty corner off the front car, trying to make your butt look as big as possible. By waiting in front of a car like that, the driver will very likely have seen you. Once the light changes, a bicycle can out-accelerate a car for the first 20 feet or so. This means that you'll likely be through the intersection and safely in a bike lane before the first car catches up to you - and that driver will have seen you. If you're going straight and that first car decides to turn right (perhaps without signaling), the driver will have seen you and you'll also be out of their way before they can even make the right turn. If you're making a left (and lane split between the left turn lane and the straight through lane), you'll be safely in an empty zone before the first cars pass 10 feet to your left and 10 feet to your right.

* To the right of the rightmost straight through lane, or to the right of the rightmost left turn lane, or in rare cases to the right of the rightmost right turn lane.

I fail to see your logic as to why this is the safest place for a bicyclist to be. In a road full of cars, you are expecting the vehicles to pass you at each intersection. Most of the time cars won't pass a bicycle with anything like a safe passing distance so you are subjecting yourself to constant buzzing by the cars you passed at the light. On the other hand, staying in line with the cars lets them go in front of you without having to repass. The cars behind you would have to pass you anyway so you aren't doubling the number of passes that you have to endure.


If you wait in line behind other cars, a large gap may open up ahead of you as the cars ahead of you pull away. Drivers behind you may end up passing you. A yellow light runner may come flying up behind you without having seen you. (The car that passed you will have blocked the light runner's view.) Also - you might get caught by a yellow light. Most yellow light cycles aren't long enough for a bike to get through an intersection. This means you might still be in the intersection when the cross traffic gets a green light.


If you are worried that cars are going to pass you, why invite them to do it over and over again by filtering to the front of the line? As my wife says, the best place to be at an intersection is the last vehicle through the light. You have breathing space before vehicles turn from the side street.

Why am I concerned? That's an odd question to ask considering you too read these boards and see what pissed off motorists do to cyclists. Unless you ignore those posts?

I don't believe in entitlement for motor vehicles. Motorists are not entitled to the road any more than a bicyclist is. However, I do believe that 2000 lbs of metal can kill me in an instant and act accordingly. If that means treating a motor vehicle with kid gloves and respect, so be it. I'd rather be alive to ride another day than be killed trying to prove a point.

Sidewalks and MUVs were designed for insecure riders like you.
Ride Safe.

I fail to see your logic as to why this is the safest place for a bicyclist to be. In a road full of cars, you are expecting the vehicles to pass you at each intersection. Most of the time cars won't pass a bicycle with anything like a safe passing distance so you are subjecting yourself to constant buzzing by the cars you passed at the light. On the other hand, staying in line with the cars lets them go in front of you without having to repass. The cars behind you would have to pass you anyway so you aren't doubling the number of passes that you have to endure.

If you are worried that cars are going to pass you, why invite them to do it over and over again by filtering to the front of the line? As my wife says, the best place to be at an intersection is the last vehicle through the light. You have breathing space before vehicles turn from the side street.

Sometimes you can get far enough of cars that they are stopped at lights which you can safely jump - pedestrian lights, turning left (or right if you are in the US), such that you never see the vehicles again. This is much safer in my mind as long as you do it responsibly and I see people who don't do it responsibly, but there will always be those.

Its mostly a safety thing. Bikes are slow off the start and car drivers are impatient because that green arrow will turn red and they will have to wait for the next green. Bikes get in their way if too slow. Its actually being considerate for bikes to move up to the front so the cars can pass the bike on that left turn.

The first thing to remember about a cat is that a cat is not a dog.
The first thing to remember about a bicycle is that a bicycle is not a car.

I wait at red lights for the light to change, and I generally just take my place in line. I'm as fast off the start as the cars are, especially around corners -- it's not until they start to get up to speed that I'd be holding them up. Keep in mind, a majority of the roads I travel on are 55 mph. I cross the intersection in the lane, then move to the side as I clear the intersection.

My favorite place to be is a car or two back, and if I do filter up that's as far as I'll go. Being a car or two back gives me time (as those cars get moving) to get into my clips and to start pedaling. I'm not holding up the cars behind as long as I'm going the speed of the cars ahead :thumb:, and I like to think that improves good will among the drivers behind me.

I don't trigger most of the lights around here, so having a car in front of me helps with that, too. I'll often let a car pass me so he can get on the trigger.

While I'm stopped, I keep an eye on what's behind me until there's something behind me. Once I have a car behind me, I don't worry about it anymore (seriously, it would take a pretty major bump from the cars behind him to send him into me).




So why are you so concerned about pissed off motorists?

Most of them are pissed when they get behind a wheel.

Ya know, "Share the Road" means you, too.

I do exactly as you do, for the same reasons. It just doesn't make sense to me to want all of the benes of being a vehicle, and none of the responsibilities.

Besides, being a Police Commissioner, behoves me to follow the rules....... LOL

The safest place for a bicyclist to wait out a red light is lane splitting at the head of the line*

If there is an accident in the intersection, vehicles or parts thereof flying in random directions become a hazard. I can think of at least three occasions in the last five years where I was nearly hit by a car following projectile motion after a crash in front of me.

The corner isn't always the best place to be. (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/06/03/toronto-accident.html)

Sidewalks and MUVs were designed for insecure riders like you.
Ride Safe.

Dude, don't be an idiot. The insecurity seems to be on your end...along with the impatience and the rudeness. Perhaps you'd be better suited to driving yourself? Your insecurity crack to someone who is just stating their opinion was uncalled for. Drive safe.

The first thing to remember about a cat is that a cat is not a dog.
The first thing to remember about a bicycle is that a bicycle is not a car.

But both cars and bikes are vehicles and thus subject to the rules of the road for vehicles.
Viva la difference...and the similarities. ;)

Dude, don't be an idiot. The insecurity seems to be on your end...along with the impatience and the rudeness. Perhaps you'd be better suited to driving yourself? Drive safe.

Drive what safe?

I do exactly as you do, for the same reasons. It just doesn't make sense to me to want all of the benes of being a vehicle, and none of the responsibilities.

Besides, being a Police Commissioner, behoves me to follow the rules....... LOL

Leadership by example? You commie! :D :beer:

Don't think of it as lane splitting. Think of it as following your lane as far as you can. In other words, your bike lane, which extends all the way to the intersection. And even if no bike lane is marked, pretend you have a 2 inch wide bike lane - because you really do: If traffic were moving and you were keeping to the right, you'd be creating an impromptu narrow bike lane.

That's the way I do it. The cars in line have passed me outside my lane. At a light I just catch up. Also the lines get long. If I stopped at the back, I couldn't make it through before it changed again.

Dude, don't be an idiot. The insecurity seems to be on your end...along with the impatience and the rudeness. Perhaps you'd be better suited to driving yourself? Your insecurity crack to someone who is just stating their opinion was uncalled for. Drive safe.

Your opinion of my crack was uncalled for.
Go back to work.

Drive what safe?

The car that would fit your 'tude better than a bike.
You wanna be my poster child for Cagers On Bikes...keep it up.

If there is an accident in the intersection, vehicles or parts thereof flying in random directions become a hazard. I can think of at least three occasions in the last five years where I was nearly hit by a car following projectile motion after a crash in front of me.

The corner isn't always the best place to be. (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/06/03/toronto-accident.html)

Then you always got the short-cutters too. Turning a car/truck while keeping the appropriate lane position seems to be a lost competency any more.

He is your poster pic.
It has a Safe Inside.

How many cups of coffee have you drank this morning?

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/50MIL.jpg

Sidewalks and MUVs were designed for insecure riders like you.
Ride Safe.

I'm insecure because I respect that fact that a 2000 lb vehicle can kill me? Oooookay. Oh, crap. I wear a helmet, too! I am a scared wittle wider that shouldna be on the woad. :rolleyes:

You ride safe, hon.

well explain to me what benefit could possibly be gained from me waiting in the queue?

- I get to breathe the lovely exhaust fumes
- I get to sit and wait for no reason

It is legal to filter where I am, and motorcycles do it all the time, it doesn't affect motorists and definitely affects my journey time. If I was driving and I saw a cyclist waiting in the queue it would piss me off as a driver because it is a completely ******** thing to do UNLESS there is no other option or it is illegal.

If it is legal for you to do it, then by all means you should be able to. The drivers will be expecting it. Unfortunately, in the States, there are only one or two states where it is legal to do so, and when riders do it anyway, it is illegal. You can't just create your own rules of the road and still consider others to take you seriously as a vehicle. Yes, motorists do things illegally ALL the time. However, the biggest difference is that motor vehicles are safely ensconced in their status as vehicles. Bicycles are not, yet, and riding illegally isn't going to win any brownie points or get bicycles to be accepted any easier as a vehicle by John Q. Public.

And to have the attitude that since someone is on a bike makes them better than someone in a car, doesn't have to follow the same rules of the road as the cars, and yet wants the same rights as a motorist and *****es, moans and has fits when they don't get it...that's entitlement. Just as so many cyclists complain about cager entitlement, I see cyclist entitlement running just as rampant.

It seems to me that I never read about anyone else on these boards doing this

I've never seen the need to write about, doesn't mean I don't do it. Especially since some of the roads I commute on are just dangerous.

I saw a cager nail a curb with both tires on the right side of their car this morning just after they passed me. I have no idea whether were over compensating for having moved over to pass me, not paying attention to the road, or just a bad driver.

I do it. When I get to the front I usually trackstand. Because it's fun and quicker (and therefore safer) once the light changes. annc put it well and I'll just add that I am responsible for my own safety, but I'm not particularly concerned about what goes on inside a motorist's head as long as he/she drives safely, legally, and predicatably--just as I attempt to do.