Foo - What's the point of college education?

Really.

I've been given the opportunity to have up to a Bachelor's degree financed for free (Vocational Rehab). After just finishing the second semester of the freshman year at a community college, I find myself second guessing my decision. I remember now why I've tried college before (3 times over 15 or so years) and didn't stick with it. I really only want to learn that which would start paying the bills the quickest.

I'm considering telling my case worker that I've changed my mind. I think that I would be happier just learning a trade, instead of earning a degree.

/rant.

Discuss.

Really.

I've been given the opportunity to have up to a Bachelor's degree financed for free (Vocational Rehab). After just finishing the second semester of the freshman year at a community college, I find myself second guessing my decision. I remember now why I've tried college before (3 times over 15 or so years) and didn't stick with it. I really only want to learn that which would start paying the bills the quickest.

I'm considering telling my case worker that I've changed my mind. I think that I would be happier just learning a trade, instead of earning a degree.

/rant.

Discuss.

When they say college isn't for everyone, they didn't just refer to dropouts and the academically inadequate.

To me, I saw university as a direct gateway to increasing my ability to find jobs that actually mean something. To me, "meaning something" involves working with computers and helping people. The farthest one can get without a Bachelor's nowadays is independent IT consulting, and that's if the person is incredibly lucky and has a deep network pool. However, even if you do reach that level of work, finding people that will actually pay you serious money for your work will be tough, since few people are willing to see beyond someone without college education. (Best Buy is far from serious money, unless you live with your parents and have minimal bills. But I don't think many people want to be there at 35.) The age of entering the corporate world by showing someone your skills is mostly over, at least in our vocation.

With that said, if you have not the slightest motivation to enter a corporate workplace, then college might not be that useful. Yes, college is a haven to enrich your intellectualism and become a more well-rounded person, but many of the studies available to students function more as pathways to graduate studies instead of assistants in landing them specialized careers.

If I were in your position, I would go, as the main detractor for many people wishing to go to college is money...

It's your chance to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to be come more well-rounded.

You have to work at a job that will make you happy. Sometimes that doesn't always involve a college degree.

I lost my full-ride when I elected to leave before getting a degree. I've lived a full and meaningful life. I've enjoyed it immensely. I've recieved accolades for what I've accomplished. I've recently witnessed several HR directors almost cry as they find themselves unable to employ me because of either, their corporate requirements or collective bargaining agreements and my lack of degree. I'm currently working with the third one who is attempting to create a new position in an effort to hire me. The first two failed. Not at creating and justifying the new positions they created but in getting them defined without degree requirements.

You can probably guess how would respond if I were in your situation.

College isn't just about studying. It's also about learning more than what's in the classroom, interacting with people you might not otherwise hang out with, and of course, partying.

I love college. I'll admit that my age and the fact that I haven't stepped into the "real world" makes it better. The social part of it might make it worthwhile, but there's more to it than that. Edification. I feel like college has honed my thought process, taught me reasoning. It has of course done wonders for my writing and speaking abilities. When I am surrounded by and talk to smart and educated people (eg. professors), I feel like I become smarter and a better communicator. I enjoy learning and feel the experience conditions my mind in a way that I like.

My brother never went to college and he's the sous chef de cuisine (2nd in command) for a hotel kitchen at some snazzy golf resort in Arizona. Free golf, all sorts of hotel discounts across the country with the resort chain, nice benefits. He's better off in his career than some of my friends who did go to college.

With that said, if you have not the slightest motivation to enter a corporate workplace, then college might not be that useful.

I know you know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. ;) College isn't just for those wanting to work in a corporate or office environment.

Edited to add, neither does a corporate environment always require a degree. (Wasn't it Gates that didn't finish college? Or am I thinking of someone else?)

I'm 30 and going to school. I spent 12 years working on things I enjoyed and decided I wanted the challenge of an education and I also didn't want to keep seeing my friends die. That sucked. There are some jobs that require an education, so that's what I'm doing, but if you're happy with something that doesn't require the huge amount of time and expense, then by all means, do that.

Oh, and having a degree is something that will always be with you, always helping you. It will make job searches perpetually easier.

I know you know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. ;) College isn't just for those wanting to work in a corporate or office environment.

:thumb::thumb:

I really questioned my 1981 Bachelor's degree when I was looking for a job, holding a B.A. in Psychology in a crappy economy. It did help me acquire a position in the military, and then, finally, in 1989, got me a foot in the door to what has become a respectably well-paying job. I figure I earn 2x or 3x what I would be getting now without it. Definitely worth it to me - even though I do have to put up with some really stupid crap on the job (like most folks do).

I love college. I'll admit that my age and the fact that I haven't stepped into the "real world" makes it better. The social part of it might make it worthwhile, but there's more to it than that. Edification. I feel like college has honed my thought process, taught me reasoning. It has of course done wonders for my writing and speaking abilities. When I am surrounded by and talk to smart and educated people (eg. professors), I feel like I become smarter and a better communicator. I enjoy learning and feel the experience conditions my mind in a way that I like.Then why do you come here to ask such spectacularly rudimentary questions?

I know you know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. ;) College isn't just for those wanting to work in a corporate or office environment.

Edited to add, neither does a corporate environment always require a degree. (Wasn't it Gates that didn't finish college? Or am I thinking of someone else?)

Bill Gates didn't finish college, you're right. That was also 30 years ago. The atmosphere of corporate America has changed a lot since then. Jobs that were 20 years ago part of an emerging field are now commonplace and you have to compete for an entry level spot; just knowing your stuff doesn't make you a shoe-in any more.
Not that you can't get a corporate job w/o a degree, but it's going to be more difficult that 30 years ago. My uncle worked his way up to a high-level executive job over 30 years with the same company, and had wet-behind-the-ears MBA graduates under his command who were questioning his ability to manage the department due to his lack of an advanced degree (he actually had a 2-yr Associate's degree.) The company 1) had to explain to these kids that more years of experience in the company than they've been alive counts for more than an MBA, and 2) sent my uncle for night classes to get his MBA just to shut the kids up.

You can get your Bachelor's paid for, so why not use it to learn to do something you want to do?

That being said, I wholly disagree that a college degree will necessarily make your life better.

But then, I'm far from the one to ask about this kind of thing. I'm 24, have a Bachelor's degree in physiology (worse than useless, for the most part). I still don't know what to do with myself. Probably never will; I kind of want to do everything, but don't really do any one thing particularly well, and I've accepted that. That being said, I would really like to make more than 13k a year, and I'd like to have health insurance, so I really just need to pick something feasible and do it. Nothing's going to jump out and bite you and tell you what to do for a career. That's my opinion, anyway. If only I weren't a hypocrite.

Basically, I think you just have to pick something you can tolerate that won't dominate your life. I think it's entirely possible for someone to not ever be able to find a traditional job that suits them and still pays relatively well. You will never like everything about your job. As long as it's not your whole life, it's doable.

The year before I started school, my salary was around $9k. My first job after college... started at $45k. No-brainer.

So, by and large, the consensus is to go for the degree.

I'll concede that an education is important. What I'm studying and what I want to study aren't the same.

Before the Dr. told me I was legally blind, and that my vision could basically go overnight, I was preparing to go back to school on my own. I've been in the warehousing/logistics field for a little over ten years now, and love it. I was going to pursue an ISOCOM degree, but now I don't think that would be the wisest. Currently taking Psych/Sociology courses towards a Rehab Services degree, which means I'll be a counselor for people dealing with disabilities.

If I stick with the school thing, I just might try to pull off a dual major: the aforementioned Rehab Svcs and a I/O Psych (which is the closest I can get to an ISOCOM). It's gonna be rough while working as many hours as possible to try and keep a roof over the family's heads...

To quote Woody Allen, "Everything your parents told you was good for you is bad for you...sunshine, milk, red meat, college..."

When they say college isn't for everyone, they didn't just refer to dropouts and the academically inadequate.



Exactly. I just left school with an associate of the arts degree after going to school for 4 years, not because I'm a moron, but because general education is not for me. In order to sit in a classroom and actually pay attention (I bull****ted my way through high school and most of college with a 2.7-3.0) it needs to be a situation where I know I'm going to be applying that knowledge in a few weeks, not years down the line. Like, a couple weeks ago my boss had a few of us supervisors take a certified pool operator course and I aced the test after studying the book for an hour...because it's knowledge I use daily.

My only regret about going to college, is that I had to go there in order to find out that it wasn't for me. I had great times and learned a lot about everything except anything related to academia, but I don't think college is going to factor much into my life.

Exactly. I just left school with an associate of the arts degree after going to school for 4 years, not because I'm a moron, but because general education is not for me. In order to sit in a classroom and actually pay attention (I bull****ted my way through high school and most of college with a 2.7-3.0) it needs to be a situation where I know I'm going to be applying that knowledge in a few weeks, not years down the line. Like, a couple weeks ago my boss had a few of us supervisors take a certified pool operator course and I aced the test after studying the book for an hour...because it's knowledge I use daily.

My only regret about going to college, is that I had to go there in order to find out that it wasn't for me. I had great times and learned a lot about everything except anything related to academia, but I don't think college is going to factor much into my life.

I'm pretty much the same. I'd rather learn the specific knowledge for the job, and then take the gen eds at leisure later.

If someone else is paying, for goodness sakes go.

I have an A.A., one semester at a four year, $4000 in debt and no real job.

If somebody offered to pay my way I'd be back at a 4 year in a split second.

Then why do you come here to ask such spectacularly rudimentary questions?

About calc 2?

A semi-necessary evil/cog in the machine that fattens the wallets of couch potato, George Carlin worshipping professors. Thank god my degree was free. Anyone w/ any real world, thought provoking experience(s) should find college to be a step back in their evolution.

The bachelor's degree is what a high school education was a decade or so ago. No degree, and your resume gets roundfiled because its just a filter to weed out candidates. A degree means your resume will actually be put up to the keyword searches.

These days, a high school education gets a person a McJob, as Wal-Mart knows they will be able to read pay stubs and follow basic health rules when cleaning an aisle. A B. S. gets a person something that in a couple years, enough experience has been obtained, or a niche has been carved that a reasonable living can be made. For the jobs that actually will get you a decent car (or bike), a decent home, and other cool things, you either need to go back to college for a J. D., a M. D., a Master's, or carve yourself a niche in the field.

Another advantage is layoff time: Yes, your hiring manager may not care about what degrees or certifications one of their employees has because they are very good, but the HR guys and upper line managers don't know or care about how good someone is, and will hire and fire by how many pieces of paper someone has. During layoffs, if its not senority that is the main criteria, the people with the fewest letters behind their names go first.

What is ironic is that a M. S. opens doors. However, in some cases, a Ph. D. shuts doors because employers think that someone is too specialized.

To sum up my rambling: Now is a very good time to stay in school and finish up your degree. Unless you are very lucky or well connected, jobs are extremely hard to come by. By the time you get your B. S., the economy should have improved where you can get something that will pay the bills.

You won't get rich working for somebody else - JP Getty. You said you want to make money, find a market and become an entrepenuer.

I know you know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. ;) College isn't just for those wanting to work in a corporate or office environment.

Edited to add, neither does a corporate environment always require a degree. (Wasn't it Gates that didn't finish college? Or am I thinking of someone else?)

You're right; I tried to elaborate more on that first point in my post.

In regards to the second quote, it was also Bill Gates that said something like this,


"Success is a lousy teacher. It cons smart people into thinking they can't fail."

The bachelor's degree is what a high school education was a decade or so ago. No degree, and your resume gets roundfiled because its just a filter to weed out candidates. A degree means your resume will actually be put up to the keyword searches.

These days, a high school education gets a person a McJob, as Wal-Mart knows they will be able to read pay stubs and follow basic health rules when cleaning an aisle. A B. S. gets a person something that in a couple years, enough experience has been obtained, or a niche has been carved that a reasonable living can be made. For the jobs that actually will get you a decent car (or bike), a decent home, and other cool things, you either need to go back to college for a J. D., a M. D., a Master's, or carve yourself a niche in the field.

Another advantage is layoff time: Yes, your hiring manager may not care about what degrees or certifications one of their employees has because they are very good, but the HR guys and upper line managers don't know or care about how good someone is, and will hire and fire by how many pieces of paper someone has. During layoffs, if its not senority that is the main criteria, the people with the fewest letters behind their names go first.

What is ironic is that a M. S. opens doors. However, in some cases, a Ph. D. shuts doors because employers think that someone is too specialized.

To sum up my rambling: Now is a very good time to stay in school and finish up your degree. Unless you are very lucky or well connected, jobs are extremely hard to come by. By the time you get your B. S., the economy should have improved where you can get something that will pay the bills.

How long have you been out of school? Just curious.

About calc 2?

Did you ever figure out whether or not to drink boiling water?

fattens the wallets of couch potato, George Carlin worshipping professors.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Anyone w/ any real world, thought provoking experience(s) should find college to be a step back in their evolution.

I'd like to hear about the kind of thought provoking experiences that would let someone pass their medical boards or design a microprocessor without going to college first.

A semi-necessary evil/cog in the machine that fattens the wallets of couch potato, George Carlin worshipping professors. Thank god my degree was free. Anyone w/ any real world, thought provoking experience(s) should find college to be a step back in their evolution.

what?

I'd like to hear about the kind of thought provoking experiences that would let someone pass their medical boards or design a microprocessor without going to college first.

Thanks for quoting me out of context --- my above statement was predicated by, "A semi-necessary evil/cog in the machine..."

Yes, as the machine/system is set up, passing a medical board or designing a microprocessor requires college. However, the intelligence and training it takes to do either of those needn't be dependent on college. People were thinking, learning, inventing, etc long before universities were bilking them of $$$.

I'll just say that after starting to work at the age of 12, graduating high school when I was 17 and joining the Army, college was a bit of an educational letdown. I don't regret it, but in the overall scheme of things, I give it a hearty "meh". Capiche?

I'll just say that after starting to work at the age of 12, graduating high school when I was 17 and joining the Army, college was a bit of an educational letdown. I don't regret it, but in the overall scheme of things, I give it a hearty "meh". Capiche?

I would tend to disagree. The military was more of a trade school. College was much more enlightening. I can't say I agreed with the way many things are done at university, but I can say that I disagree with more things within the military.

I would tend to disagree. The military was more of a trade school. College was much more enlightening. I can't say I agreed with the way many things are done at university, but I can say that I disagree with more things within the military.

I basically agree w/ you -- the part in bold print is a very interesting topic and probably part a separate discussion. I think that it's a question of "do the ends justify the means?" -- I've seen stellar results/ends in the Army, yet at the same time some very questionable methods/means. Interesting stuff though! :thumb:

However (for me), for this reason, I felt the military to be more enlightening.

However (for me), for this reason, I felt the military to be more enlightening.

On the other hand, I hated it.

Thanks for quoting me out of context --- my above statement was predicated by, "A semi-necessary evil/cog in the machine..."

Yes, as the machine/system is set up, passing a medical board or designing a microprocessor requires college. However, the intelligence and training it takes to do either of those needn't be dependent on college. People were thinking, learning, inventing, etc long before universities were bilking them of $$$.

Even putting back the "semi-necessary", I still don't agree. Technology has advanced too far in the last 30 years. The information I learned going to college 25 years ago is only a fraction of what is taught now for an engineering degree. There is no way life experience can make up for that in today's world.

True, people were thinking, learning, and inventing long before there were universities. But I seriously doubt the majority would be able to keep up with the current technology and advancements and achieve the same results today without getting a higher education.

Even putting back the "semi-necessary", I still don't agree. Technology has advanced too far in the last 30 years. The information I learned going to college 25 years ago is only a fraction of what is taught now for an engineering degree. There is no way life experience can make up for that in today's world.

True, people were thinking, learning, and inventing long before there were universities. But I seriously doubt the majority would be able to keep up with the current technology and advancements and achieve the same results today without getting a higher education.

+1

Not to mention those that have to make up for what primary/secondary education didn't do.

On the other hand, I hated it.

OMG, I hated about 95% of it w/ a passion. But the other 5% was great (I'm an adrenaline junkie).

Also, me and a friend made the most of our weekends via roadtrips in his Volkswagon bus to Lafayette (noticed you're in Baton Rouge) and Houston. Getting at least 80 miles away from the base was key to preserving my sanity and avoiding a criminal record!!!

True, people were thinking, learning, and inventing long before there were universities. But I seriously doubt the majority would be able to keep up with the current technology and advancements and achieve the same results today without getting a higher education.

There's a lot more background knowledge these days. Stuff like back in the day (wayyyyyyyy back) a grad student had to know all the restriction enzymes and all their cut sites, but now there's more enzymes known than anyone can remember, never mind the DNA sequences they recognize.

Getting back to the OP, I think of a 'college education' as more than meeting vocational requirements. Depending on what you want to do, you can string together night classes to learn all the material you need to know to execute a particular function (to the extent that it's codified anyway, things like knowing how to teach you pretty much can't learn in school, you need to learn by doing, and maybe also need to have a knack for it too).

I don't know too many people from undergrad daze who stayed in the field of their major so if you are looking at it as a purely vocational exercise, you might be disappointed in the outcome of the investment (of money and/or time) if you leave the field and don't use any of the training you acquired.

Another advantage is layoff time: Yes, your hiring manager may not care about what degrees or certifications one of their employees has because they are very good, but the HR guys and upper line managers don't know or care about how good someone is, and will hire and fire by how many pieces of paper someone has. During layoffs, if its not senority that is the main criteria, the people with the fewest letters behind their names go first.

After watching the recent rounds of Microsoft layoffs, and having worked through the P&G layoffs of 7 years ago, it's obvious that seniority and degrees have almost nothing to do with layoffs in giant organizations. You're right that HR doesn't know from squat about how good you are at your job... nor do they care. You're a job description and an employee number to them. Together with the accounting department, you're an employee number and a payscale.
Unless you've got an extremely necessary and specialized skill which no one else can perform, you can have 20 years with a company and 2 doctoral degrees and they'll still let you go if they can replace you with a kid fresh from his Bachelor's degree for 1/3 of your salary.
I've seen it happen plenty of times. HMO's are notorious for doing this after taking over a hospital: Replace the supervisory staff of Ph.D. clinicians with a couple of kids straight from their MBA program, then wonder why the quality of service goes down the tubes inside of 6 months.

Even putting back the "semi-necessary", I still don't agree. Technology has advanced too far in the last 30 years. The information I learned going to college 25 years ago is only a fraction of what is taught now for an engineering degree. There is no way life experience can make up for that in today's world.

True, people were thinking, learning, and inventing long before there were universities. But I seriously doubt the majority would be able to keep up with the current technology and advancements and achieve the same results today without getting a higher education.

I agree w/ the part about college being an effective tool for learning what you WANT to learn.

I just don't think that should someone with the intelligence, desire and study habits necessary to become an engineer, etc should have to take classes in "music appreciation", etc, etc. 60 of the 120 credits I needed for my degree went these types of general electives -- which, IMO, were just necessary evils.

Not to mention seeing Johnny fratboy and Susie sorority getting wasted for the 1st time (hello, sheltered life) while burning through their parents $$$.

I have little doubt that my kids got wasted time to time while burning through our money.

I am an engineer, and I WISH that I had the time/flexibility to take a music appreciation course when I was in school. I had very few electives to work with. I missed the 'real' GI Bill, so I worked and borrowed to get through school.

But it goes back to the OP. College is not vocational school. It's not meant to be. The idea is to get a 'well rounded' education, at least as rounded as possible. Sometimes that means being exposed to ideas that don't always coincide with one's belief structure.

I have little doubt that my kids got wasted time to time while burning through our money.

I am an engineer, and I WISH that I had the time/flexibility to take a music appreciation course when I was in school. I had very few electives to work with. I missed the 'real' GI Bill, so I worked and borrowed to get through school.

But it goes back to the OP. College is not vocational school. It's not meant to be. The idea is to get a 'well rounded' education, at least as rounded as possible. Sometimes that means being exposed to ideas that don't always coincide with one's belief structure.

Agreed. Although I'll add (another) $.02 and mention that there are tons of places w/ as many or more divergent ideas than a college campus. In other words, don't drink too much of the professor's Kool Aid. :D

College is an opportunity to explore many things educationally speaking. Focusing solely on the money earning potential is shortsighted imo.

College opens the doors to much more income. Sure, you might be able to make more today without your BA/BS, but in 10 years, that entry level BA/BS job will probably earn 2-3x more than they did when they started.

I know this isn't true 100% of the time, but it's certainly something to think about when deciding to stick out a free ride or not.

College is an opportunity to explore many things educationally speaking. Focusing solely on the money earning potential is shortsighted imo.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's tough seeing people in concentrations solely for potential financial success, only to regret their decision later on. However, I don't see any good in going through college having no idea of what to do when it's all over.

I honestly feel that I learned many many things in college that make me a better person. One of the most important things I learned was to persevere and finish things I started.
I also learned to try to write well, but I don't always do that real good.

I have little doubt that my kids got wasted time to time while burning through our money.

I am an engineer, and I WISH that I had the time/flexibility to take a music appreciation course when I was in school. I had very few electives to work with. I missed the 'real' GI Bill, so I worked and borrowed to get through school.

But it goes back to the OP. College is not vocational school. It's not meant to be. The idea is to get a 'well rounded' education, at least as rounded as possible. Sometimes that means being exposed to ideas that don't always coincide with one's belief structure.

The reason why I saw college as a launchpad for my career is because most of the really important things I've learned about life, love and friends were taught outside of college. I would argue that commuters like myself don't fully delve into college life, which is perfectly fine by me. The two years I've spent in that abyss were more than enough.

What helped me become incredibly more well-rounded was living on my own in Brooklyn. Additionally, when compounded with working a corporate job every other semester (or, in one case, for two consecutive semesters) and not living in a college town, I believe that one begins to get a better understanding of what happens after all the free booze and chicks are done.