Tandem Cycling - S&S couplers vs Folding Tandem Two'sDay

I'm thinking of upgrading from an old steel Sovereign. My wife and I have been tandeming together for a couple years, and have done a few rides within a 300 mile radius of where we live by putting the tandem on a car rooftop rack (TandemTopper).

As I look towards retirement in the next few years, I'd like to have a tandem we can travel with. I would be interested in hearing from many of you on the pros/cons of: (a) S&S couplers; (b) folding tandem (i.e., Tandem Two'sDay).

Some specific questions I have:
1. Relative performance & joy of the ride
2. Relative convenience (assembly speed/ease; maintenance)
3. Travel cost
4. Suitability for tourding load (do the 20" wheels hold up on the folding tandem?).

I have this mental picture of doing a cruise with the tandem onboard to take ashore for shore excursions (this probably reveals my lack of tandem traveling AND the fact that I've never been on a cruise!).

I also have a picture of doing some long trips, like flying to Europe, New Zealand, etc., and doing multi-week tours.

It might be fair for you to also comment, if you think appropriate, on the compromises of either of these solutions vs. just shipping a standard tandem.

Appreciate any first-hand experiences you may have to share.

Never ridden a Tandem Two'sDay (or Bike Friday either). Ours is a steel coupled Co-Motion. I think it rides similar to a steel non-coupled Co-Motion (i.e. like a "real" tandem).

The couplers make travel possible but not easy. Packing / unpacking takes at least an hour at either end - maybe more like 1.5 hours depending on how methodical & particular you are. I would bet a Two'sDay would be much quicker & easier.

Only been on a cruise once. I think you have to have all of your belongings in your (very tight) cabin. Any bike would likely take up a lot of precious space.

If you plan to travel a lot, I think the Two'sDay is the way to go.

My $.02

We had a Bikefriday Tandem Traveler XL. It was actually a very nice bike. The ability to adjust size made it work well for riding with our daughter as she grew.

For serious riding, with 2 adults I would favor a full size coupled tandem. The Bikefriday is definitely less stiff, and not a real confidence building ride descending at speed, climbing out of the saddle, or throwing it into turns.

Packing and unpacking the Bikefriday was about a 45 minute operation, and just about as complicated as taking apart a bike with couplers. The Tuesday may be a bit easier because it folds. However for airline travel you're still going to have to take it apart to pack it into two cases.

We were looking to buy our first tandem earlier this year. Since we travel alot we wanted a tandem that we can pack, but we could not afford a new Co-Motion Copilot (somehow that would describe our 'dream bike'). That is when we looked into a Tandem Traveler XL. I spoke to the sales guy at Bike Friday various times and he seemed very knowledgeable (can't remember his name though). He pointed us to a LBS that had a Traveler XL in stock. We never did testride it though, since testriding an unfmailier tandem on icy streets in 20 degree Chicago weather did not appeal to us.
We ended up buying a lightly used Co-Motion Speedster Co-Pilot for about the same money we would have spend on a new Bike Friday Traveler XL with cases and various upgrades.
Had we been able to testride the BF Traveler XL, the decision might have been different or not

A few observations that I learned from my search:
-An S&S coupled traditional tandem and a Bike Friday Traveler XL are not comparable other than that they can be disassembled to fit in a case. Feel, stiffness, etc. will be considerably different (see comments from Merlin). On the other hand:
- A BF Traveler XL will run a lot cheaper than a traditional S&S coupled tandem. Even with a lot of upgrades you would still not get to $6k, which I gather is the starting point for a new S&S coupled tandem.
- Taxes. Not sure if this applies to you, but sales tax in Chicago is 10.25%. BF allows the Point of Sale to be their manufacturing location in Eugene, OR, which has 0% sales tax. You can either pick it up in OR, or have them ship it to you in the travel cases. That added up nicely for us. It is my (unverified) understanding that Co-Motion doesn't allow that, since they focus on sales through their dealer network.
- Seasonality. I had conversations with BF in January. And they had some great deals that ended in late January. I think in total the quote was almost $1k less than it would have been in high season. Not saying an LBS couldn't match that on a traditional tandem, but still...

I know these comments barely address your questions, but I think they may be useful in the decision making process.
Duppie

Some specific questions I have:
1. Relative performance & joy of the ride
2. Relative convenience (assembly speed/ease; maintenance)
3. Travel cost
4. Suitability for tourding load (do the 20" wheels hold up on the folding tandem?).

.


I owned a Tandem Tuesday for about 5 years and sold it and purchased a Co-Motion Supremo with couplings 3 years ago for travel( cheaper mid-life crisis purchase than a car ). I sold the Tuesday and an older Satana Steel Soverign to get the Co-Motion. The Tuesday rode well, but not nearly as nice as the Co-Motion. The Tuesday was nice especially when my son was small. I used it with both my son and wife as stokers. I have a Calfee and the Co-Motion is pretty close to the Calfee. The Calfee is a little better.

I think the assembly and re-assembly times are close, with the Tuesday maybe being slightly faster ( 10 minutes ). The Tuesday would have an advantage for quick folds to take on a train or bus, but I never used that feature on our trips. I just would pack, ride, and pack back up. The travel cost are identical since they both fit into two standard size suitcases. I have not had to pay extra charges for any of the trips I have taken, although I have not traveled in the year. I never had any problems with the more speciallzed parts of the Tuesday ( 20 inch wheels tires,...), but I would think the more standard parts on the Co-Motion would make repair on a trip easier ( I always carried a spare tire with the Tuesday on a trip). I never did touring with the Tuesday with heavy loads ( camping equipment ), only light motel tours, it was fine for that. My son was collecting rocks for a few days in my paniers without my knowledge and it survived that. I have also only done motels with the Co-Motion and only with my wife, who is stronger than me, and does not collect rocks.

rock-collecting?! LOL

Thanks so much for the information. I especially appreciate the comments on the ride, as that is most helpful. We find our steel Sovereign to be whippier than we'd like, so the consideration of relative frame stiffness of a S&S vs. Tues'day is an important observation. Also, that the packing times are similar, not 5 or 10 minutes for the Tues'day, is important. Sounds like just folding it might work for the cruise idea, or for putting it in a rental car, but for extended tours, it isn't much of a consideration since you'll be dismantling to put on a plane anyway.

So why are so many of you into Co-Motion's instead of Santana? I was thinking towards Santana because of the tubing set they use (I do want some seriously larger diameter tubing/stiffer frame than our old steel Sovereign has). Is it that Co-Motion is cheaper, or are their S&S frames better than Santana's in some way, or is there another factor I'm missing? I do see Co-Motions for sale on the classifieds boards fairly frequently, but S&S coupled Santana's are rarely posted there.

We ride a Co-Motion Speedster Co-pilot. The feedback you've recieved so far is pretty accurate. I'll add a couple of items based on our experience.
1) The bike fits in two standard checkable cases. This convenience was important to us. Schlepping the bike around the airport is pretty simple, and the roller cases we have make toting our other luggage pretty simple.
2) Disassembly/Assembly takes me about 1 hour each way now that I know what I'm doing. The process has the added benefit of a slightly more detailed understanding of the bike.
3) Because the cables also have couplers, they can be replaced with standard-length cables.

We chose Co-Motion over Santana because of the availability through a LBS. The help and support from th LBS is very important to us. I'm decent with a wrench, but having a professional backup is excellent.

Best of luck!

We own a recent model aluminum Soverign that we upgraded to CF fork and stoker seat post, disc brake, sweet 16 wheel set, etc. We absolutely love the bike! We also have a SS coupled steel Cabrio triplet that bakes down into a tandem. The Cabrio is our traveling tandem. The only upgrade we did on it was a disc brake. We have taken the Cabrio (as a tandem) on loaded tours and we have only one complaint: The way Santana places the SS couplers leaves a large section (front half of the bike) that does not fit into a 26X26 case even after removing the fork. Santana says that it is the best way to protect the frame during transit but I do not buy that. It would fit perfectly in Santana's oversized case but that case is likely way over 50 lbs witrh the bike inside and will not fit inside most cars.

We have been researching and test riding tandems this spring. We also have single Bike Friday touring bikes so consequently we were able to get in touch with a lot of locals with tandem Bike Fridays. Consequently, we have had a few extended test rides -- i.e. over a weekend -- with regular (big wheels but no couplers) and folding/separable Bike Friday tandems. A few weeks ago, we learned that another baby is on the way, so we decided to wait before purchasing.

Some conclusions:

(1) A Bike Friday does have more flex than the Santanas we tested; although it will vary according to the weight of the riders for which it was designed. Moreover, you can distinguish between flex of the seat mast and flex of the boom tubes. This too is by construction. On a bike designed for a heavy team (~400 lbs) we thought that the bike was very stiff whereas on one designed for a light team (<300 lbs) we could feel an oscillation while climbing the sidestreets of Georgetown. Note that swapping for titanium tube increases the flex. Consequently, there are people that select the titanium tubes for the seat masts and chromoly tubes for the top/boom tubes for the structural frame. It creates a very light suspension post but maintaining steadier handling. At least that was their claim. From discussions with the salespeople, you can request a stiffer frame.

(2) A Tandem Tuesday for a relatively large couple fit into the trunk of our Toyota Echo with a rear rack still attached. The wheels were still on. It took us about five minutes to carefully fold the bike.

(3) Like a S&S coupled bike, you can quick separate the Bike FRiday XL model. We could do it in a little less than 10 minutes and easily fit it into the trunk of our Toyota Echo. Unfortunately, we have not found a S&S coupled bike for us to test yet.

(4) The XL can often be packed into a single suitcase. Although weight limits come into play such that people will keep a few parts in a separate duffle bag to avoid surcharges from overweight luggage.

(5) S&S coupler suitcases are much more expensive. More than twice the price from what I gather.

(6) Unfortunately, we have not had the opportunity to really push the limits on handling and barrelling down a hill. We don't have a lot of experience with tandems and learning on someone else's tandem would not be very nice of us. But from conversations, what Merlin writes is pretty consistent. That is, when you are pushing the edges, one can sense a flex in the bike. Given that this is all anecdotal, I can't determine whether this could be eliminated via asking for a stiff bike.

(7) The small wheels are much stronger than those on bike wheel bikes.

(8) Acquiring appropriate (tall) gearing is somewhat of an issue with the small wheel bikes. There are articles about this elsewhere but if you are really interested in the topic, I can discuss more thoroughly. Note that you also have less of a tire selection than big-wheel bikes. Tubes may or may not be an issue according the size of the tire you use. If you use an ERTO 406 wheel and generally use wide tires, then the common BMX tubes will fit the bike provided you had the foresight to have the tims drilled for schaeder valve. Narrow presta valve tubes can be somewhat hard to find in a new city. Our rims are drilled for schraeder valves but we use adaptors to use presta valve tubes.

(9) The smaller wheels -- maybe the wheelbase too ... I never measured the distances across the different bikes -- usually lead to quicker steering of a low-trail bike which by our judgement is probably an advantage with a long wheel base bike such as a tandem. But YMMV.

Anyway, we obviously still have a lot of time to make up our mind and we do enjoy the convenience of our regular Bike Fridays. They really are great bikes for travelling for a variety of reasons that ride quite well. I consider my New World Tourist -- the loaded touring bike -- my best all-rounder bike. We plan on trying out a few more big-wheel bikes and perhaps squeeze in a long descent someplace.

I have an aluminum Santana Sovereign and while I think it is a very nice bike, I only ride it with the kids on short rides now. While I understand that there are some Santana owners that are very pleased, and I can understand why, I am very disappointed with the bike and the manufacturer.

My wife and I ride brevets and on these long distance rides fit is extremely important. The Santana has many unique sizes which limits your options to parts manufactured by Santana. Consequently when we were dialing in or making changes to the fit for us, non-Santana parts that I would have preferred to use were not an option due to the incompatible size.

I would also take much of the marketing literature that Santana puts out with a grain of salt. While in Paris before the start of Paris-Brest-Paris 2007 (a 750 mile non-stop ride with 5,200 participants from all over the world), we had lunch with a couple from Seattle that had a custom built titanium Litespeed. The owner was considering the purchase of a Santana, but ended up with the Litespeed. He had the Litespeed built to accommodate Santana's Sweet 16's. He said that the in spite of all the talk about the Sweet 16's being stronger, they proved to be very weak and unreliable on long rides where durability is paramount. He had some hand built standard spoke wheels for PBP.

Having said this, we did ride our Santana on PBP (with custom built standard spoke wheels) and finished well in spite of having some issues with a crank arm. (I don't think the crank arm had anything to do with Santana.) Also understand that Randonneurs regularly experience problems that someone doing short rides never will - so understand that my experience is likely skewed.

I believe the Santana is generally a good bike, but be aware of the fact that if you ever switch out a stoker or captain - or if you find that you want to make some small adjustments down the road your options will be unnecessarily limited with a Santana.

"Part-time epistemologist"

Didn't know what this was so I checked it out on Wikipedia.

I thought you might be an amature at performing a procedure some women have before childbirth.

Everyones got to have a hobby.

Perfect timing to run into this thread- we`re thinking pretty hard about selling out Burley in order to get one if its Friday cousins. I still wonder why there`s normally so little discussion on BFs here, but this thread has been chock full of good info- muchos thank yous to everyone.

Invisiblehand in your conclusion number three, I take it you mean that you can break the bike down enough to fit it easily into your car even if it isn`t disassembled to the point where you could stuff it into the travel cases?

"(3) Like a S&S coupled bike, you can quick separate the Bike FRiday XL model. We could do it in a little less than 10 minutes and easily fit it into the trunk of our Toyota Echo. Unfortunately, we have not found a S&S coupled bike for us to test yet."

Last summer we did the End to End ride in England with another tandem couple: One small wheeled Green Gear Travel Tandem and one coupled Co-Motion.

We originally wanted to take our old Co-Motion (without couplers) that we tour with here in Calif. Heard that some airlines might not allow full size tandems so we investigated shipping it to Penzance in advance but the price quotes we got were about $900 one way. I was considering the generous offer by Cornucopia to let us borrow his coupled travel tandem/triple, but didn't want to keep it from them for such a long trip. By chance I happened to be talking at work to someone I barely knew and we got to talking about bicycling. He told me that he and his wife had just toured England on their brand new Co-motion tandem (with S & S couplers) and that they had purchased the works from Co-Motion: front and rear racks and panniers, carrying cases etc. Since he was about my size I sort of jokingly asked if he would be willing to rent it to me for a month or so for our End to End ride. To my surprise he said "sure" and we settled on what I thought was a reasonable price--$600 (he let me name it).

Following the bike owner's suggestions, we packed up this way: The tandem came apart and fit into two soft cases, which just meet the airline size and weight (50 lb) limit for checked luggage without additional charge. We checked one additional piece of soft luggage which contained our helmets, cycling shoes, the folded up rear panniers, the rear rack (which wouldn't fit in the two main bicycle cases), and
some miscellaneous clothes and personal items (this one was almost 50 lbs too). Most of our clothing fit in with the bikes as extra padding. We carried the smaller front panniers (which have straps to make them into backpacks) as the carry on luggage on the plane. The other couple with the small wheeled bike packed similarly and their two bike cases (hard cases) were about the same size as the co-motion cases.

No problems with the airlines in checking the bags and having them end up where we were. With two couples with similar packages we were too big a load for some taxi's and needed to find larger ones or, one with a trailer. One advantage to the soft cases, is that once we arrived and put the bike together, we could put one bike case and the extra suitcase along with whatever else we didn't want to carry on the bike into one of the bike cases and just have one case to ship to our final destination, rather than two cases which was the situation with the other couple.

Both tandems came apart and went together without too much difficulty even for someone like me of very modest mechanical skills, although the other captain who is a bit more handy with such things helped me some. One nice thing about the way the Co-Motion comes apart is that you can leave the forks in place--just remove the handlebars (not completely because the cables are still attached) as I am told that some coupled bikes require more disassembly in the front.

The main difference at least for our trip between the two types of tandems was that tires and some parts are harder to find for the small bike so it's wise to carry more than one spare tire. Also, of course, some don't like the way the small wheel bike feels. But after a 1,000 miles in 13 days, much of it in the rain, both bikes worked great.

I have tried to attach a couple of photos of what the bikes looked like loaded up in England. Not sure if I did it correctly.

End to End is on my list of things to do. We hope to be able to do it with our kids, not right now as they are too young, but not before they don't what to hang with mom and dad anymore. (a narrow window)

After our experience of traveling with a full size tandem we purchased a Steve Rex with Couplers. We have one hard case and one soft that turns into a backpack. The idea being that one person can (me) can carry half the bike on my back, wheel the hard case and carry one duffel while my wife deals with tickets, passports, etc. This only works if you have one tandem and no kids to take care of however.

We had given thought to getting a Bike Friday, but opted for the coupled Rex as it fit our need for a better fitting brevet bike too. We have since fitted our Santana with a child stoker kit. If money was no object I would get a Bike Friday to go along with the Rex as it sounds like it would be a lot easier to travel with and to fit a growing child at the same time.

How did you ship your case from John O'Groats to Lands End?

Invisiblehand in your conclusion number three, I take it you mean that you can break the bike down enough to fit it easily into your car even if it isn`t disassembled to the point where you could stuff it into the travel cases?

"(3) Like a S&S coupled bike, you can quick separate the Bike FRiday XL model. We could do it in a little less than 10 minutes and easily fit it into the trunk of our Toyota Echo. Unfortunately, we have not found a S&S coupled bike for us to test yet."

That is right R y R.

In an earlier thread, I asked whether people did a quick disassemble of their coupler bikes -- the answer was yes -- so I figured that a test with an XL was in order. I imagine that with practice one could get pretty quick at the process.

I took a photo of the Tandem Tuesday going into the trunk. I'll try to find it on the laptop sometime this weekend and post it here.

From traveling as a couple with two single Bike Fridays, I can't emphasize enough that ERTO 406 20" wheels are almost always the better choice. Tire/tube selection and availability is much better: this is the size most BMX guys/gals use. I can always find a schraeder valve tube. And a shop that carries BMX stuff will generally have a few fat (~50 mm) smooth tread tires. The fatter tires add some pneumatic trail, more cornering traction, low rolling resistance if you get a high quality one, and more suspension.

BTW, here is a video of someone packing an XL using a single suitcase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db9k0pnmTEU

Note that there are a lot of different setups. This person used a SRAM Dual Drive without a crossover chain but with an Arai drum brake. So if one selects a different component group, the process would be probably be different. But I think that the basics are there.

"Part-time epistemologist"

Didn't know what this was so I checked it out on Wikipedia.

I thought you might be an amature at performing a procedure some women have before childbirth.

Everyones got to have a hobby.

:lol:

[How did you ship your case from John O'Groats to Lands End?[/QUOTE]

We went the other direction so had to ship cases from Land's End (actually Penzance near Land's End) to Wick where we spent our last night near John O' Groats. Neville, the proprietor of the place we stayed in Penzance took care of it for us and used UPS or something similar in the UK. Anyway, no problem as the cases were in Wick when we got there.

BTW, here is a video of someone packing an XL using a single suitcase.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db9k0pnmTEU

Dang- that`s pretty compact. I can`t imagine fitting our current tandem and 26" wheels into one suitcase even with the help of a Sawzall.

On a side note- Eugene is within a day`s drive from home and only an hour or two from my sister`s house, where we find ourselves a few times a year anyway. Does anybody know if BF maintains a fleet of test drive bikes at the plant? The website has dealer listings and offers to find other BF owners, but the bikes are SO different from what I`m used to and they offer many options for things I have no experience with. I wouldn`t hold my breath looking for a dealer with a bike in stock in the correct size and with similar build to what we might want. That is, if we KNEW exactly what we wanted. BF does indeed seem like the perfect solution for my wife and I, but I`d sure like to see how I like their H bars and how the split dropbars feel and how do I like DD, and how would this and that affect the fit, etc, etc....

Dang- that`s pretty compact. I can`t imagine fitting our current tandem and 26" wheels into one suitcase even with the help of a Sawzall.

On a side note- Eugene is within a day`s drive from home and only an hour or two from my sister`s house, where we find ourselves a few times a year anyway. Does anybody know if BF maintains a fleet of test drive bikes at the plant? The website has dealer listings and offers to find other BF owners, but the bikes are SO different from what I`m used to and they offer many options for things I have no experience with. I wouldn`t hold my breath looking for a dealer with a bike in stock in the correct size and with similar build to what we might want. That is, if we KNEW exactly what we wanted. BF does indeed seem like the perfect solution for my wife and I, but I`d sure like to see how I like their H bars and how the split dropbars feel and how do I like DD, and how would this and that affect the fit, etc, etc....

Fleet? I don't know about that. They definitely have demo models.

Check out a few posts on the Bike Friday YAK group. It can be searched via Google. You might find a local Bike Friday Club where some of the locals might discuss and/or let you test ride their bike. Our experience is that people are quite willing to share their experiences and let you go for a test ride.

So why are so many of you into Co-Motion's instead of Santana? I was thinking towards Santana because of the tubing set they use (I do want some seriously larger diameter tubing/stiffer frame than our old steel Sovereign has). Is it that Co-Motion is cheaper, or are their S&S frames better than Santana's in some way, or is there another factor I'm missing? I do see Co-Motions for sale on the classifieds boards fairly frequently, but S&S coupled Santana's are rarely posted there.


There are several threads on Co-Motion vs Santana. I think a big part of the difference in the two is how they're designed to ride. Co-Motions tend to be built as performance bikes with quick handling, whereas Santana's tend to be set up more for stability.

Our Co-Motion Robusta feels more like riding a high end single racing bike than any other tandem we've ridden.

So if you're going to race, do comptetive group rides, or just ride fast, there's a good chance you may prefer a Co-Motion. On the other hand if you're a less aggressive team, and want a quality bike, with secure handling, then Sanata may be more to your taste.

There also is some undercurrent in the Forum that is somewhat anti Santana, given some arguably over the top marketing practices by Santana.

Some fantastic posts here! Thanks for all the input. Good to hear from some Bike Friday owners and testers too. Sounds like stiffness of the frame is partly a function of how you specify it; I wonder how a "stiff" version compares to an S&S coupled large tube Santana or whatever. Sounds like a test ride is critical, but hard in my part of the country since no dealers nor do I see them on rides. :-(

I'd like to know more about the proprietary parts on Santanas that are a problem, driving one poster to Comotion. Is there a discussion of that somewhere else? i.e., like a list of the parts/issues?

Some great feedback here! Thanks so much.

I'd like to know more about the proprietary parts on Santanas that are a problem, driving one poster to Comotion. Is there a discussion of that somewhere else? i.e., like a list of the parts/issues?

Some great feedback here! Thanks so much.


I think the most notable thing would be the 160mm rear axle spacing. 145mm is more the defacto standard today. Santana claims the 160mm allows for a stronger wheel. However, there is debate regarding whether there's any significant advantage, and it does limit your wheel choices.

Also Santana uses 1 1/4" steerer tubes, which could limit choices if you wanted to use a different fork.


When we were looking to upgrade to a higher end tandem, I just assumed I wanted a Santana, because that brand was what I associated with high end tandems. Reading Santana's literature, I was more convinced that Santana was the only choice because of the advantages taughted for 160mm rear spacing, 1 1/4" headtubes, Win Zip discs, etc.

After reading a number of threads here, I became convinced that a lot of the Santana dogma is just that dogma, and that a Co-Motion would better fit us.

Personally, I would test ride both, and tandems form other manufacturers and pick the one that best suits your needs and style.

I'd like to know more about the proprietary parts on Santanas that are a problem, driving one poster to Comotion. Is there a discussion of that somewhere else? i.e., like a list of the parts/issues?

Proprietary isn't really the correct term for most of the somewhat unusual sized components spec'd by Santana; they're just a bit non-standard and in most cases -- short of the rear wheel drop-out spacing -- you can use substitute parts IF you don't object to spacers, shims or other modifications.

Anyway, that said:


1. Head tube / head set at 1 1/4" means the selection of stems and forks will be somewhat limited.

2. Fork geometry at 55mm rake makes your fork choices very limited as no one else is using that spec. anymore. Moreover, when combined with the need for a 1 1/4" steerer you're pretty much left sourcing your forks from Santana.

3. Octalink bottom brackets at 73mm x 129mm or other 'styles' (earlier Kajita square taper BBs) also at very wide widths are pretty much a sole-source item from Santana. The wider shells are part and parcel to the beefy, un-dimpled rear stays used by Santana and the superwide BB spindles are tied to the 160mm rear spacing.

4. Rear drop-out spacing at 160mm is supported by a few hub manufacturers but, for instance, Santana is the US distributor for all of Shimano's 160mm rear hubs. Chris King, Phil Wood and Hadley all support the standard...

5. Since around 1999 the Santana front derailluer mount has used a special clamp called the 'far-out' that is mated to a bolt-on front derailleur. The far out clamp simply moves the front derailleur position futher away from the frame to improve the chainline associated with the 160mm rear spacing.

6. If you opt for their OEM 10" WinZip rear disc you'll find yourself sole-sourcing Santana for any future OEM replacement parts related to the caliper or rotor; however, they use Shimano's brake pads.


I'm sure I've missed something, but I think those are the biggies. As for the the mumbo jumbo regarding special tubing it's just that: all of the better tandem builders are using tandem-specific tubesets OR when it comes to custom builders by adapting more than adequate stock tubes for things like seat tubes, forks, etc. to work with custom drawn or shaped straight gauge tubing to meet the design needs of their tandems. For example, I want to say that the rear chain stays on our Erickson tandems are actually some VERY beefy fork blades from Reynolds.

Getting back to the Brand X vs. Brand Y dialog, Co-Motion tends to build their frames to be stiffer in all aspects using custom zonally-butted tubesets from its preferred tubing suppliers, whereas Santana shoots for a bit more lateral compliance using triple-butted tubesets from its preferred tubing suppliers. Most folks can adapt to either whereas some teams will end up having a strong preference for one vs. the other. As for the materials used, it really doesn't matter: Co-Motion aims to make all of their tandems have similar handling characteristics, the weight differences notwithstanding as so does Santana. While we have often time discussed the difference in steering geometry and how it makes the different tandems handle, much of the difference comes from the combination of the frame characteristics and fork geometry such that simply changing forks will not necessarily make a Santana handle like a Co-Motion any more than going the other way will make a Co-Motion handle like Santana. Moreover, most average tandem buyers probably wouldn't notice the difference and would adapt to either rather quickly.

It really is just one of those things where you must find what suits: Ford vs. Chevy, Honda vs. Toyota, Lexus vs. Infinity, BMW vs. Mercedes, etc...

Here is a picture of us putting the Tandem Twosday into the Echo. We fiddled with it a bit more -- one of those push and twist moves -- and it slipped inside. I recall that we had to keep the handlebar post from slipping too far out of the fold. The rear rack is still on the bike.

invisiblehand, how do you KNOW it fit in the trunk?! LOL

Tandemgeek, your list didn't include Sweet-16 wheels. Are they available from other manufacturers now too? On the other hand, reversegear's comments above give me pause. Are these over-hyped by Santana? http://santanatandem.com/Techno/Sweet1607.html

Regarding framesets/tubing, Santana's website seems to imply that the Easton 7000 aluminum is not available from other manufacturers (or is that simply the "custom-drawn...double-butted" tubesets?). http://santanatandem.com/Techno/FNAluminum07.html Is that true? Hype? On this page, Santanta claims that triple-butted is 2 lbs. heavier: http://santanatandem.com/Techno/TubingCompare07.html It would be nice if there was a technical site providing objective details/comparisons on tandem tubesets and framesets. Anyone know of such a site?

I guess two of my reasons for Santana is (a) name recognition/resale value; (b) I have a lot of respect for Bill McReady. But the BikeFriday concept has me looking more widely, and maybe I should consider Co-motion and others more as well.

Back to Bike Friday/Tandem Tues'day: Merlinextraligh, can you elaborate on your stiffness/frame flex comments? Specifically, invisiblehand commented on some BikeFriday's being built for heavier teams and those being stiffer (I found the same on the BikeFriday website). So my question to you is, when you commented on more flex in the BikeFriday's, was that on a frameset that was for "light" or "heavy" teams? And, invisiblehand, am I to understand that you found ALL BikeFriday's to be more flexible than the Santana's, or was it only the "light" frameset that was?

Thanks again to all. Great discussion!

... your list didn't include Sweet-16 wheels. Are they available from other manufacturers now too?

No I didn't as they are not standard on the basic Santana models. As far as being an option, last time I checked Sweet 16s are also in short supply and only being fitted to Santana's Team bikes where they are spec'd as the OEM wheels for that bike.

Sweet 16s are not available from anyone other than Santana; moreover, I'm pretty sure Santana has actually been getting the individual parts from Shimano and assembling the wheels for quite a few years so it's really not even available as a part number item from Shimano.



... Are these over-hyped by Santana?

ALL of the low-spoke count or other high-end wheels marketed to the masses for general use are over-hyped. In fact, I just spent the last year and a half validating that fact for myself by playing around with a couple of the 145mm offerings. However, that said, they really do look quite nice and can make you believe you can go faster: the mind is a very powerful thing so if you believe it.... then it may be true.

Best bet for tandems that are used for sport / fast recreational riding are a reasonably light (~1,900 - 2,000 grams) conventional set of wheels that use the appropriate number of spokes for a team's weight and a narrow, deep section rim.



... Santana's website (fill in the blank)

It's called marketing; try not to get sucked into the vortex if at all possible. There isn't anything you'll read from Santana that doesn't suggest all other product offerings by other manufacturers are sub-par. Weights, butting and all of that other noise are meaningless information until such time as you have two fully assembled tandems available to ride. At that point you as a consumer can then decide which tandem appeals to your sense of aethethics, handling and has the cachet that makes you like one more than the other. Short of having a tandem that has a whippy frame (i.e., cheap or older models or uber-light frames that have no business sitting under folks who aren't uber-light) or being over-aggressive on a tandem that wasn't made for racing, none of the recognizable builders making tandems are putting junk out there. Moreover, wheels, tires, tire pressure, forks and the size and weight of the riders will all alter how a given tandem handles to the point where a few pounds, the alloy used, or how many butts the tubeset simply don't matter.



... I guess two of my reasons for Santana is (a) name recognition/resale value; (b) I have a lot of respect for Bill McReady. But the BikeFriday concept has me looking more widely, and maybe I should consider Co-motion and others more as well.

Santana tandems depreciate just like every other tandem except in the minds of the folks at Santana and the folks who have bought into their marketing pitch about resale value, hook line and sinker. After all, when the original buyer sells a Santana the warranty goes away: it's just a tandem sold 'as is' the same as any other exceptional tandem built by Co-Motion, Bilenky, Rodriguez, Cannondale, Trek or any one of dozens of other builders who ALSO make fine tandems and offer excellent customer support after the sale.

By the way, it's Bill McCready... not McReady. By all means give him his due for being a catalyst behind the resurgence in tandems here in the states and for the outstanding job he does at selling the tandem lifestyle: no one does that better than Bill and Santana. But, by all means get his name right.

As for other offerings all I can say is, our first tandem was a Santana: it was exceptional. We've since then owned a couple Ericksons, a Cannondale off-road model, a couple Ventana off-road models and more recently acquired a Calfee road tandem. None of them have been anything less than excellent as has the customer support and reliability. There are lots of great tandems available so consider it a buyers market. Do your homework, know your budget and follow your gut.

We never rode a Bike Friday/Tuesday but I have two observations:

It seems very flexible. It adapts well to different size riders.

It seems very flexible. The frame that is. In all our years of tandeming and hundreds of organized rides only rode by one once. It was the slowest of the bunch. A local team owns one for traveling but after using it for a loaded tour they are looking for a regular SS coupled tandem.

Just my 2 cents...

invisiblehand, how do you KNOW it fit in the trunk?! LOL

Because I got it in after adjusting the handlebars. We wanted to be very careful with other people's tandems.


And, invisiblehand, am I to understand that you found ALL BikeFriday's to be more flexible than the Santana's, or was it only the "light" frameset that was?

Thanks again to all. Great discussion!

My wife and I are a low to mid 300s couple. We rode a XL tandem built for a very light couple -- I don't know their weight, but we were obviously much heavier than them (50 lbs?) and Peter at Bike Friday verified that it was built for their weights -- and the flex was very noticeable. We noticed no discernible flex in the very Tandem Tuesday in the picture. We only met the captain who was a few inches taller than me. We tried another XL briefly that was more like the Tuesday with regards to feel.

We rode two Santanas: one was chromoly while the other titanium. At the very least they were as stiff as the Tuesday. We are still in the process of checking out the chromoly bike. The titanium one also had narrow tires (25 mm) so it can be hard to identify stiff frame versus harsh tires. Regardless, I am relatively confident that the answer to the question is yes; i.e., titanium > chromoly > Tuesday. And I would say that comparing the two stiffest models of each class was something like comparing a stereotypical steel bike to an aluminum one if that makes sense. That is, most of this -- except the "light couple" XL -- is a relatively subtle sensation accumulated over a ride. Just as a reminder, we didn't ride either bike aggressively.

Sorry for the long explanation, but I want to be precise.

Personally, I would ask for the stiffer tandem if we go with the Bike Friday. I figure that if one wants a softer ride it is pretty easy to get fatter tires or adjust tire pressure. Obviously, as long as you spec a full-size tandem that can fit wide tires, you can do the same with a Santana, Co-motion, and so on. Although I recall that one can replace the boom tubes on any Bike Friday tandem for greater/less flex.

Back to Bike Friday/Tandem Tues'day: Merlinextraligh, can you elaborate on your stiffness/frame flex comments? Specifically, invisiblehand commented on some BikeFriday's being built for heavier teams and those being stiffer (I found the same on the BikeFriday website). So my question to you is, when you commented on more flex in the BikeFriday's, was that on a frameset that was for "light" or "heavy" teams? And, invisiblehand, am I to understand that you found ALL BikeFriday's to be more flexible than the Santana's, or was it only the "light" frameset that was?



Our Tandem Traveler XL was custom built for us, (team weight 340lbs) so I'm presuming Bike Friday spec'd the tubing that they deemed appropriate for our size. I think the flex is just inherent in the design.

You've got the better part of 2 feet of seat tube extended above the point that it's supported by any other tube. Then you put the stokers handlebars on the top of that, and that's a pretty big lever to flex the seat tube. Same thing for the stem, you've got a couple of feet of tubing sticking up above the top tube. There's just no way that similarly sized tubing is going to be as rigid when its one tube sticking up, as it s going to be when it's 3 tubes triangulated.

All that adds up to very noticeable "stoker wag" If you go into a turn, and the stoker and captain aren't leaning in together there is pronounced flex in the frame. If you climb out of the saddle a little out of synch there is very noticeable flex, and sprinting out of the saddle was definitely an act of faith.

I still think it was a good bike for its intended purpose. it was great with a child stoker on the back. It was acceptable to me with an adult stoker. (However, my wife hated to ride on the back because the flex was unsettling.)

If you're going to ride smooth at moderate paces, you may find the Bike Friday Tandem to be fine.

If you're a bigger team, a more powerful team, and or you're going to push the bike hard such as climbing steep grades, descending at speed, cornering hard etc, I think you would likely find a full sized S&S coupled tandem much more enjoyable to ride.

Our Tandem Traveler XL was custom built for us, (team weight 340lbs) so I'm presuming Bike Friday spec'd the tubing that they deemed appropriate for our size. I think the flex is just inherent in the design.

One of the reasons I am reasonably confident that the Bike Friday has more flex is that the diamond frame has proven to be a pretty robust design for a hundred or so years. If the low tube, long seat mast, long handlebar mast design was optimal, it would have evolved to be the dominant design, IMO. A Bike Friday can only make sense when you include factors other than performance in your decision.

I can't really speak to the OP's question, but wanted to note that Co-motion and Santana are not the only games in town when it comes to a coupled traditional tandem. Bilenky was the first to apply S&S couplers to a tandem, and build a fine bike.(ours is a non-coupled version) A local team have a Di Vinci coupled bike that they are extremely happy with (it is their second tandem, not sure what the first was).

Bilenky can also add couplers to an existing bike....expensive, but maybe worth it if you have a tandem you are otherwise happy with.

Link to Bilenky website (http://www.bilenky.com/Home_.html)

Proprietary isn't really the correct term for most of the somewhat unusual sized components spec'd by Santana; they're just a bit non-standard and in most cases -- short of the rear wheel drop-out spacing -- you can use substitute parts IF you don't object to spacers, shims or other modifications.

Anyway, that said:


1. Head tube / head set at 1 1/4" means the selection of stems and forks will be somewhat limited.

2. Fork geometry at 55mm rake makes your fork choices very limited as no one else is using that spec. anymore. Moreover, when combined with the need for a 1 1/4" steerer you're pretty much left sourcing your forks from Santana.


Selection of stems is virtually limited to Santana only, esp. if you need something at all odd to make the sizing work. Fortunately their stems are not out of line when it comes to price. With hundreds of choices in stem out there at 1 1/8 inch, 1 1/4 with anything outside of +/- 15 degrees seems to be limited to Santana.

Similarly with the fork. At least they don't charge through the nose since they are a single source.

Tandemgeek, thanks for the comments. Yes, I saw the misspelling of McCready’s name as soon as I posted it, but didn’t know how to edit a post so just left it alone. I remember McCready from back when he used to write technical articles in Bicycling! magazine. I think that was back in the 1970’s. I appreciated his engineering approach. I think he brought the same talents to Santana. Sounds like you have owned lots of tandems over the years! Have you changed so often just because of new technology developments that you wanted to acquire, or is it that you have never been happy with a particular model? Or is it just restlessness? <ggg>

Originally Posted by TXbikerider (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=9068222#post9068222)
invisiblehand, how do you KNOW it fit in the trunk?! LOL

Because I got it in after adjusting the handlebars. We wanted to be very careful with other people's tandems.
>>> Sorry, I was just joking! (since you are an epistomologist) J
Thanks for filling in the details on your sense of the ride on Tandem Tues’days!

Merlinextraligh, thanks for the additional input. That is very helpful. It is my wife (stoker) that is driving my search for a stiffer tandem, as she gets really nervous about the flex back there. So what you describe, and your wife’s response, tells me this is not the direction I should be looking, other than perhaps for the cruise idea and casual riding (but I don’t have money for a garage full of tandems, so for sure an S&S tandem would need to take priority). We are about a 320 lb team, working to get to <300 lb.

Thanks again, everyone, for the very helpful comments! Sounds like I should focus on a quality S&S tandem and then maybe in the future when budget affords it, look for a quality used Tues’day just for special situations. Since there is no BikeFriday dealer around Texas area that I can tell, it was very helpful for me to get all your input!

Yes, I saw the misspelling of McCready’s name as soon as I posted it

No worries; McReady seems to be a very common misspelling of his name so when I see it misspelled I try to correct it. I believe it comes from having a surname that's also often times misspelled.



Sounds like you have owned lots of tandems over the years! Have you changed so often just because of new technology developments that you wanted to acquire, or is it that you have never been happy with a particular model? Or is it just restlessness?

1995/6 Santana Arriva to '98 Erickson: Let's call this one an upgrade to address custom sizing / handling preferences / a splash of panache

1998 Erickson: We still have this one but it had a technology upgrade around '00 with the addition of a carbon fork, new shifters/rear derailleur, shorter front cranks, carbon seatposts and a new wheelset

1998 Cannondale MT3000 to '00 Ventana ECdM: Our first mountain tandem bought in Feb '99. Let's call this one a technology upgrade as we moved from a hardtail MTB to a full-suspension model.

1998/2000 Ventana ECdM to '02 Ventana ECdM: Let's call this one a technology upgrade / deal just too good to pass up.

2002 Erickson Travel Tandem: This one was an adder to the stable. It was dimensionally the same as the '98 Erickson but had couplers for travel.

'02 Erickson to '08 Calfee: This was a 'because I wanted to', having been smitten with the Calfees shortly after our '02 Erickson was on put on order in Aug '00. The Erickson was absolutely perfect but had to be sold to help defray the cost of the Calfee.

'08 Calfee Custom Tetra Travel Tandem: This tandem incorporates everything we've learned about tandems over the past 12 years: similar geometry to the Erickson but only 30" in the stoker compartment which has proven to be the sweet spot for us, flexible brake configurations, couplers for travel, no-paint for durability and ease of repair, etc...

Sorry, I was just joking! (since you are an epistomologist)

Hey ... that is funny. :lol:

Humor can be difficult online. My bad. :(

invisiblehand, I KNOW humor is difficult online! LOL

TandemGeek, your list of purchases certainly qualifies you for your online name! Did you by any chance look at the Santana IsoGrid before looking at the Calfee? (Which, btw, I hadn't heard of until reading your posts. I've been looking at their website and it is an impressive machine). So is your Tetra without the lateral tubing? If so, how is the stiffness/whippiness compared to other tandems?

Did you by any chance look at the Santana IsoGrid before looking at the Calfee? (Which, btw, I hadn't heard of until reading your posts. I've been looking at their website and it is an impressive machine). So is your Tetra without the lateral tubing? If so, how is the stiffness/whippiness compared to other tandems?

You can find a summary of our impressions regarding the Calfee at the final installment of our Calfee Blog:
http://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem_12.html

The loss of the internal tube is more than offset by the larger diameter tubeset and compact geometry that leverage the unique anisotropic properties of composites to achieve equivalent levels of stiffness in the critical planes while affording the riders far more comfort than equally stiff framesets. However, let me underscore something that became very evident early on with this tandem: never underestimate how much influence wheels and tires and aftermarket forks will have on the overall ride and handling qualities of a frameset. Again, a tandem is the sum of its parts and as teams move away from conventional robust wheelsets and forks towards the more lightweight racing models, the tandem frame's inherent handling and stability WILL be degraded.

The Santana....

There are a variety of other design aspects inherent in the Santana tandems and design philosophy that simply didn’t resonate with us early on (again, our first tandem was a Santana) so the Beyond was never on our short list. However, because I found the IsoGrid / Beyond tandems interesting and to satisfy my own curiosity, as I often do with various builders I called and spoke at length with Bill McCready about the material, licensing and fabrication a couple years ago and it’s all rather complex but in the end yields a very nice frame.

I will say the folks who I have met at rallies and who post here who own the IsoGrid Beyonds are all quite pleased with them, both in terms of performance and comfort. Of course in most cases (I only know of one or two exceptions out of about 15 Beyond owners whom I’ve spoken or corresponded with) the Beyond owners were already happy Santana owners who upgraded to the Beyond models. I think this is important in that, Santana is IMHO analogous to Toyota: they design and build a line of products that all follow a very tightly controlled set of design standards such that every Toyota has the Toyota look and feel, from base model to the high end and are well-supported by the dealer network and manufacturer. Therefore, many folks will simply want a Santana as their first tandem and stay a loyal Santana owner, reinforced by the notion and reputation that Santana has established for being “the best”. Like Toyota, Santana also realized this created a customer base that would likely be interested and have the resources for an even higher-end tandem line of product and introduced ‘exotic’ frame material-based models like the oversized Columbus Nivacrom EL “Noventa”, followed closely by the Ancotech oversized titanium models. These exotics are essentially Santana’s Lexus level of product line and the Beyond is now the flagship model in that high-end product line. Never let it be said that the folks at Santana don’t do their homework or rest on their laurels.

Again, the Beyond was simply never on my short list to begin with because of other considerations but it’s a fine machine nonetheless.

As I look towards retirement in the next few years, I'd like to have a tandem we can travel with. I would be interested in hearing from many of you on the pros/cons of: (a) S&S couplers; (b) folding tandem (i.e., Tandem Two'sDay).

Some specific questions I have:
1. Relative performance & joy of the ride
2. Relative convenience (assembly speed/ease; maintenance)
3. Travel cost
4. Suitability for tourding load (do the 20" wheels hold up on the folding tandem?).

I have this mental picture of doing a cruise with the tandem onboard to take ashore for shore excursions (this probably reveals my lack of tandem traveling AND the fact that I've never been on a cruise!).

I also have a picture of doing some long trips, like flying to Europe, New Zealand, etc., and doing multi-week tours.


A frame built with S&S Couplers is typically stiffer than an identical frame built without them. The only disadvantages of buying a bike with couplers vs. without that I can think of are:
1) The weight penalty (this can be substanstial, especially as your bike becomes more expensive).
2) The cost penalty (this can also be substanstial, especially as your bike becomes lighter...and you start worrying about buying lighter couplers).

We use a single (Santana Safeliner) case for our travels. We've been charged anywhere from nothing (God Bless Air New Zealand) to $150 Euro (Alitalia sucks royally). I would say the main advantage of a coupled bicycle is getting to and from the airport (it will fit in a regular cab). If the case should ever wear out (or we upgrade bikes), I would probably go with two S&S cases. On domestic flights, I would still expect an extra suitcase charge, but it would probably be in the neighborhood of $25-$50, vs the $50-$100 dollars we are usually charged.

RE Cruising: I've never been on one, but I doubt you would have the space in your room to store the tandem (though I have taken ours into some pretty small hotels). But cruise ships are big, so there's probably somewhere on board it could be locked up. If you have the cash to throw around, Santana runs at least one cruise a year: http://santanatandem.com/Vacations07.html

72andsunny, good points. I "want" to travel but realistically, at least until retirement, travel is a minimal part of our tandem experience. A boke w/o couplers and shipping with a single case for occasional travel is an option I should probably consider, though I think couplers will be the better long-term investment for me.

TandemGeek, after looking at your blog postings on the Calfee, it is clear that you really live up to your name! In fact, it is a bit scary, because the blog sort of leaves one with the impression that unless one is a geek too, a custom Calfee might be a bit difficult to implement and refine than a stock Santana (or Co-Motion or whatever) with builder-specified design and componentry. I suspect, though, that this is because you are a real "tweeker" and for "normal" customers, Calfee would provide a perfectly acceptable bike without technical expertise being required on the part of the customer.

I loved the matching of the new Calfee on the stand with the hardwood floors and a grand piano in the background. A combination of the finer things in life!

I suspect,... for "normal" customers, Calfee would provide a perfectly acceptable bike without technical expertise being required on the part of the customer.

Absolutely, remembering that a lot of Calfees customers either buy their bikes and tandems through a dealer and/or directly from Calfee as a fully assembled machine. In fact, as an OEM builder and retailer Calfee is able to offer exceptional pricing on Shimano-equipped bikes and tandems. I suspect had I gone with a standard Calfee build package my cost for our tandem would have been lower and the entire process would have taken far less effort on my part.


... it is a bit scary, because the blog sort of leaves one with the impression that unless one is a geek too, a custom Calfee might be a bit difficult to implement and refine than a stock Santana (or Co-Motion or whatever) with builder-specified design and componentry. I suspect, though, that this is because you are a real "tweeker"

For the most part, my blog / journal was written for other bike geeks and wanna-be geeks who may be considering a custom build and who are also very particular about their requirements and such. So, yes, in some respects I guess it could be a bit over the top for a first-time tandem buyer or simply the average consumer who is quite happy 'shopping' for a new tandem that finds the off-the-shelf offerings more than adequate. I attempted to orient the reader to the more advanced degree nature of my adventure right up front:

As noted in the preface to the journal on the very first page (http://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem.html):


I've created this journal to provide tandem enthusiasts with insight into another enthusiast's (that would be me) experience in breaking-in a new tandem and the associated discovery process with very candid and frank commentary.

The goal is to give others who go down a similar path with their first or perhaps their first custom tandem the benefit of seeing a first hand perspective to demonstrate that even a seasoned enthusiast will make mistakes and find things aren't always perfect.

They key to success is, as always, solving issues by realizing where you may have made mistakes, learning new things about your new equipment, finding the root cause of performance issues, fine tuning to suit your long-term preferences, and addressing all of these things using a logical and methodical process. Moreover, it will hopefully underscore how important relationships and communication is throughout the lifecycle of the entire process and product.

Again, and as you note, I have always been a tweaker when it comes to my machines. In fact, I began to modify our very first tandem before it left the dealer's shop by immediately upgrading the bar-end shifting to Sachs Ergo and, well, the tweaking went on for the next month such that the brakes, bar tape, seat posts, rims, and tires were all changed to suit my preferences. I stopped tweaking when I replaced the headset at 3,500 miles to a Chris King after a long tour on chipseal indexed the stock one and began instead to focus on our first custom tandem.

So, yes, I'm a bit off the right-hand end of the bell curve when it comes to the geek factor.