Road Cycling - If steel is real, then what is carbon fiber?

I've been looking to upgrade my AL bike to something more comfortable for long rides. I've been looking at all steel bikes around the $1500 to $2000 range (not that many). The trend seems to be to combine carbon with aluminum or steel to produce a better ride. Last I heard, an all carbon bike could be made stiff enough to rattle your teeth loose, known for it's stiffness to weight ratio. Has that changed? Does this carbon bonding to metal really smooth out the ride? How does it compare to all steel?

Carbon is indeed stiff. It's appeal to me is that, although stiff, it gets rid of the "road buzz" and remains responsive, good at sprinting, climbing ... etc. All the while doing this with minimal weight to strength. The carbon bikes I rode impressed me, but I'm a bit scared to ride one on a permanent basis because of my size.

As for carbon and aluminum combos they are definitely smoother than their all aluminum bretheren. I found the steel and carbon Lemond Zurich to be exceptionally smooth. If you want smooth look at the '04 Zurich or Buens Aires. For me, all steel is the right balance of smooth and liveliness.

All that being said I currently ride an all aluminum bike. A replacement is being sought as we speak.

It is actually reinforced plastic. Carbon fiber just sounds cooler.

The carbon bikes that I have ridden felt very smooth. One or two had a dead feeling though.

Then I found Titanium............................

I just built up a scandium frame with carbon seatstays and carbon fork, its a nice ride, very responsive...it's got snap is how my riding buddy put it. BTW, he rides a serotta custom ti. I also have a kestrel, stiff and very smooth...I would not say it has a dead feel. I also have a full steel bike; the ritchey road logic is a great steel bike, but the it an't light! I just rode my scandium 75 miles and it was great! but my kestrel might be smoother. :rolleyes: I've been on ti and found ti was not stiff enough, but many of the new ti bikes are stiffer, but they all weigh in over 3 pounds...both my scandium and kestrel are sub 3.

I've been looking to upgrade my AL bike to something more comfortable for long rides. I've been looking at all steel bikes around the $1500 to $2000 range (not that many). The trend seems to be to combine carbon with aluminum or steel to produce a better ride. Last I heard, an all carbon bike could be made stiff enough to rattle your teeth loose, known for it's stiffness to weight ratio. Has that changed? Does this carbon bonding to metal really smooth out the ride? How does it compare to all steel?

A lot has been written about the ride qualities of the various materials. Check out:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

I ended up buying a Merlin last September after riding a steel frame from a custom builder, a
Giant Composite 1 and a Jamis Eclipse. I really wanted to like the Giant...but to me it did
feel a bit lifeless. So I went with my gut feel and went with the titanium, as it was the only
one I rode that made me really WANT to stop riding my old aluminum Vitus-Cilo with the
glued AL frame.

So now I am a TI fan. For about $2k you can get a Habanero titanium bike complete.

Check out

http://www.habcycles.com/

Carbon fibre is a very versatile family of materials. I would judge each CF bike individually rather than generalise them as a whole. This is true of any material actually but is especially true of carbon fibre.

BTW, I actually think it's better to have a fairly stiff but shock damping frame such as can be made with CF and then tune the ride feel with the wheels. I think the wheels contribute more to actual road feel than the frame.

A lot has been written about the ride qualities of the various materials. Check out:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

I ended up buying a Merlin last September after riding a steel frame from a custom builder, a
Giant Composite 1 and a Jamis Eclipse. I really wanted to like the Giant...but to me it did
feel a bit lifeless. So I went with my gut feel and went with the titanium, as it was the only
one I rode that made me really WANT to stop riding my old aluminum Vitus-Cilo with the
glued AL frame.

So now I am a TI fan. For about $2k you can get a Habanero titanium bike complete.

Check out

http://www.habcycles.com/

How do you compare the Hab TI versus your old Vitus. I've got a old Vitus 979 and am looking at a possible acquisition of a Merckx Majestic TI or a Hab TI. I do have an Carbon fiber Monocoque BIK, (BIK is a predecessor of the Aegis Aro Svelte before the company became Aegis) and it rides very comfortably but is heavy for a CF bike.

Do you have any BB flex with your Hab? Is the road shock/buzz really absorbed thru the frame?

Thanks for any feedback.

Has anybody here seen the new Bianchi Vitrara? (not sure of the spelling). It's steel with carbon chain and seat stays. With an Ultegra group it's about $2,100. I saw it at the LBS yesterday and it looks interesting. I'm wondering how it rides, should be pretty smooth.

Has anybody here seen the new Bianchi Vitrara? (not sure of the spelling). It's steel with carbon chain and seat stays. With an Ultegra group it's about $2,100. I saw it at the LBS yesterday and it looks interesting. I'm wondering how it rides, should be pretty smooth.

I'm test riding it tomorrow. I started a thread yesterday asking if anyone has heard anything about it, and I got no response. I'll let you know what I think. It's Virata.

http://www.bianchiusa.com/virata.html

If steel is real, then what is carbon?

My other good bike.

55/Rad

I've been looking to upgrade my AL bike to something more comfortable for long rides. I've been looking at all steel bikes around the $1500 to $2000 range (not that many). The trend seems to be to combine carbon with aluminum or steel to produce a better ride. Last I heard, an all carbon bike could be made stiff enough to rattle your teeth loose, known for it's stiffness to weight ratio. Has that changed? Does this carbon bonding to metal really smooth out the ride? How does it compare to all steel?

I just ticked over 1100 miles on my 2004 Lemond Zurich. I was impressed when I first test rode one last November and was more impressed on a second test ride in February. I purchased one in April and could not be happier. I have said in other threads and I will repeat here there are just not enough O's in the world to put into smooooooooooooth to describe this bike.

I also took two test rides of the Trek 5200 all carbon fiber bike and was also impressed with it, but it felt skittish to me on descents and it transmitted a lot more bumps and things than the Zurich.

The Bicycling test of the Zurich said that you cannot believe it is not an all steel bike unless you keep checking. At $2200 for the double and $2230 for the triple, it is a fantastic deal. The bottom line on the Bicycling review as you can get a sexier bike, but not a better one. For a few hundred less, you can get the Buenos Aires with the same frame, but instead of an all Ultrega grouppo, you get a mix of 105 and Ultraga and a different wheel set.

I am 6'3", currently weight 240lbs, and have been averaging over 20miles per day since late April. I don't race and have no desire to. I ride for the pure enjoyment of it and the Zurich makes it very, very enjoyable.

It is actually reinforced plastic. Carbon fiber just sounds cooler.

technically, no. :rolleyes: plastic is made from petroleum--oil. carbon fiber is made from strips of carbon and kevlar.
however, carbon fiber can be molded and shaped similar to plastic. but carbon fiber is not cheap, or cheap to mold, whereas plastic is.

technically, no. :rolleyes: plastic is made from petroleum--oil. carbon fiber is made from strips of carbon and kevlar.
however, carbon fiber can be molded and shaped similar to plastic. but carbon fiber is not cheap, or cheap to mold, whereas plastic is.
the epoxy resin is a plastic when cured.

Carbon reinforced with plastic. :)

55/Rad

I actually went from Carbon to Steel. My conclusion Steel is Real!!!

I've got one Steel bike (Bianchi) and one Ti bike (Airborne) and I can't make up my mind which one is the best ride....... It depends on my mood, I guess....

if you place a carbon fork on your steel frame, it will smothen the ride, I know this because my other bike has a steel frame and a carbon fork, it its smothen the ride

but what if the bike has a high quality metal fork? my racing bike is a really nice itailan handmade frame with matching fork. will a carbon fork really do much?

my steel frame is a Pinarello, and it has a carbon Fiber Fork, and it matches beautiful

Carbon fibre

Carbon fibre, the essential reinforcing material in many components of a Formula 1 racing car, including the body, suspension, brakes and clutch, starts out life as a well-known plastic, polyacrylonitrile (PAN).
Other precursors, pitch and rayon, can also be used, but PAN results in the strongest product. Carbon fibre is produced in a 4 step continuous process.

Source:http://www.carbonfiber.gr.jp/english/index.html



Oxidation
First the PAN is heated in air to a temperature of 3000C, where its molecular structure is changed. The fibres change colour from white to black. To achieve the highest quality, and therefore the strongest carbon fibres, this oxidation process must penetrate right through to the centre of each individual strand.

The material generated at this stage can be used as a finished product, a fibre with exceptional temperature resistance properties which is used to make fireproof garments. Fabrics made from oxidised PAN have become a convenient replacement for asbestos, largely banned on toxicity grounds.


Carbonisation
The second stage of the process removes all of the elements in the polymer with the exception of carbon. This is done by heating the fibre to a temperature between 10000C and 30000C in a nitrogen-rich atmosphere. The temperature determines the strength of the final fibre, the highest temperature producing the highest grade of material.


Surface treatment
The carbonised fibre is surface treated to ensure maximum adhesion with the polymer matrix that will bind the fibres together in a composite structure.


Surface coating
Next the surface of the fibres is coated with a finishing agent, usually an epoxy resin, which protects the fibres during subsequent processing and ensures an intimate contact with the polymer matrix in which the fibres are eventually embedded.


Carbon fibre fabrics

Prior to their combination with the epoxy resin matrix, carbon fibres are usually woven into a fabric. For many applications this carbon fibre weave is often "pre-impregnated" with the plastic resin before delivery to the user. A combination of useful properties can be achieved by weaving two materials together. A typical example is a mix of carbon fibre with an aramid fibre, providing both high strength and resistance to penetration, all achieved with extremely light weight.

but what if the bike has a high quality metal fork? my racing bike is a really nice itailan handmade frame with matching fork. will a carbon fork really do much?

I think steel does a great job cleaning up the rough stuff while CF takes a bit more of the high end buzz off. I have a steel bike (FOCO tubing) with CF fork and seatpost and find it amazing how smooth it really is. Even with 23mm tires it is smoother on "smooth" roads than a steel MTB I have with a cheap spring based suspension and 1.5" slicks. Both bikes are far smoother than my aluminum Hardrock with the same 1.5" slicks.

no wonder it is expensive. that's some specilized manufactoring

no wonder it is expensive. that's some specilized manufactoring

Yes and no... It does seem complicated but then again so is metal alloying. The biggest contribution to cost in manufacturing a carbon fibre frame is in the layup and the mold. This is much more time consuming and intensive than placing metal tubes in a jig and welding.

I think steel does a great job cleaning up the rough stuff while CF takes a bit more of the high end buzz off. I have a steel bike (FOCO tubing) with CF fork and seatpost and find it amazing how smooth it really is. Even with 23mm tires it is smoother on "smooth" roads than a steel MTB I have with a cheap spring based suspension and 1.5" slicks. Both bikes are far smoother than my aluminum Hardrock with the same 1.5" slicks.

I would just hate to spend 200 on a fork and not find enough improvement. my frame is a really nice frame and the forks are really good forks. once peoplel start looking at my frame they want it (G) they don't make frames like it anymore. ith as campy dropouts an even better brand bottom bracket (can't remember what it is) some cool details in the building. the fork is original. but the bike looks cool with a matching fork you don't see that much anymore.

carbon fiber products as it relates to bicycles isn't as expensive as you might think. The use is so widespread now that it has become relatively cheap.

The reason it is expensive in F1 is in development and the one-off nature of production.

The only expense in cycling is the mold- that is what is going to cost companies $$.
Alot of them cut costs by using generic carbon seatstays (for example, ORBEA's Orca leaves the lug open for the generic seatstay). There is a wholesale market for cf lugs & tubes that companies can just buy so molds aren't even necessary to sell a full carbon frame nowadays.

How do you compare the Hab TI versus your old Vitus. I've got a old Vitus 979 and am looking at a possible acquisition of a Merckx Majestic TI or a Hab TI. I do have an Carbon fiber Monocoque BIK, (BIK is a predecessor of the Aegis Aro Svelte before the company became Aegis) and it rides very comfortably but is heavy for a CF bike.

Do you have any BB flex with your Hab? Is the road shock/buzz really absorbed thru the frame?

Thanks for any feedback.

I never got to ride the Habanero. Harris Cycles, the local dealer near Boston, only had a 56cm bike built up. Since I need more like a 50cm fram, I didn't think this would be a valid test. Since there was no way I could ride a Habby, I went with the Merlin, which I could test ride at length.

Bottom line is that the ride quality of the two are probably pretty close. The big difference is that the Merlin has compact geometry while the Habby is standard.

The Merlin is the only bike I ride that made me actually WANT to stop riding the Vitus-Cilo. I personally have not noticed any BB flex, and I am not the lightest rider in the world (~ 170 lbs). The Ti ride is really comfortable, and that is even with the Ksyrium SSC SL wheels I have on the thing. It rides a lot smoother than I expected with those wheels.

The Habanero sure SEEMS like a good deal to me. When I talked with Mark Hickey, he indicated that to get around the test ride problem, they have a 2 week no questions asked return policy if you buy directly from them. I just didn't feel like going through the hassle of possibly having to deal with shipping the thing back to them if I didn't like it. And I got a pretty good deal from my LBS on the Merlin.

I never got to ride the Habanero. Harris Cycles, the local dealer near Boston, only had a 56cm bike built up. Since I need more like a 50cm fram, I didn't think this would be a valid test. Since there was no way I could ride a Habby, I went with the Merlin, which I could test ride at length.

Bottom line is that the ride quality of the two are probably pretty close. The big difference is that the Merlin has compact geometry while the Habby is standard.

The Merlin is the only bike I ride that made me actually WANT to stop riding the Vitus-Cilo. I personally have not noticed any BB flex, and I am not the lightest rider in the world (~ 170 lbs). The Ti ride is really comfortable, and that is even with the Ksyrium SSC SL wheels I have on the thing. It rides a lot smoother than I expected with those wheels.

The Habanero sure SEEMS like a good deal to me. When I talked with Mark Hickey, he indicated that to get around the test ride problem, they have a 2 week no questions asked return policy if you buy directly from them. I just didn't feel like going through the hassle of possibly having to deal with shipping the thing back to them if I didn't like it. And I got a pretty good deal from my LBS on the Merlin.

Thanks for the feedback! :)

I've been looking to upgrade my AL bike to something more comfortable for long rides. I've been looking at all steel bikes around the $1500 to $2000 range (not that many). The trend seems to be to combine carbon with aluminum or steel to produce a better ride. Last I heard, an all carbon bike could be made stiff enough to rattle your teeth loose, known for it's stiffness to weight ratio. Has that changed? Does this carbon bonding to metal really smooth out the ride? How does it compare to all steel?


get squishier wheels. the frame isn't the problem. if you must get a new frame get a cervelo super prodigy. i don' t think you could afford the soloist team. but get it if you can. it can double as a tt bike! and it's aero. that's also good for long rides.