Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Midnight 400K start: to sleep or not to sleep...

I'm planning a 400K that starts at midnight. I'm hoping that I can get to the start city with time for a nap. Assuming I have time, should I really try to get as much sleep as possible, or just a cat nap. I've done 24-hour races, but they always started in the morning.

We have a 400 that starts at 3am and I rarely get more than a couple of hours sleep before this ride.

Good sleep deprivation training for the 600!

Some sleep studies indicate that adults generally sleep in about 90 minute cycles (REM cycles). If I'm in a situation where my sleep might be limited, I've found that what works for me is to sleep a multiple of 90 minutes.

So if you've got time for an 1.5 hour or 3 hour nap, that's what I would recommend doing.

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack here but I'm curious... What is the thinking behind starting a 400k brevet at midnight as opposed to a more humane time like 6:00 am?

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack here but I'm curious... What is the thinking behind starting a 400k brevet at midnight as opposed to a more humane time like 6:00 am?

The only reason I could see would be so that the finish was (for most riders) in the late evening, as opposed to 12-5 AM.

Other than that I think I've heard of some 600's starting in the evening, to get people ready for night starts at PBP.

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack here but I'm curious... What is the thinking behind starting a 400k brevet at midnight as opposed to a more humane time like 6:00 am?

Probably to get people used to the night start on the PBP.

I'd recommend getting as much sleep as possible before any ride, no matter what time it started, but especially if it had a start time like midnight. I think the best way to avoid problems with sleep deprivation is to do whatever you can to avoid being sleep deprived.

I've never understood the night-time start times. I suppose some find them fun, but I think they put riders on the road in a condition where there's more likely to be problems. Most people will not have had adequate sleep the night before the event starts. Most people aren't on a third-shift schedule, so it's going to screw with most people's natural sleeping/waking cycles. If event organizers want to measure how well their riders perform under reduced sleep, and people want to know how they make decisions and function while sleep deprived, then there's really no reason to involve a bicycle in the equation.

I actually like the night starts. I can sleep at any time of the day, but my natural clock suggests I sleep between about 3 am and 11 am ... I've always been like that.

So the night before the ride, I aim to get about 12 to 15 hours of sleep, and I'm up about 11 am. Then I take another nap in the late afternoon/evening, and I'm ready to roll for a night start. I might have a little bit of a down period just as the sun comes up, but it's only temporary.

The best part is that you set off on the ride, and you can't see your computer but you keep riding and riding in the dark, and then when the sun comes up high enough to read the computer, you realize that you've done 150 km, or whatever, already. :)

The worst time to start a ride is about 3 am!!

a more humane time like 6:00 am?

6:00 am is humane? :notamused:


my natural clock suggests I sleep between about 3 am and 11 am

Me too, but lately I've been more like 4am - noon.

The last double I did I took off about 6am after maybe 45 minutes of bad sleep. About 40 miles into the ride I knew I was in trouble. I made it, but it wasn't pretty. This year I'm planning a solo 'triple' so I'm thinking since this will involve some night riding no matter how I slice it, I might as well leave at my normal ride start time (early afternoon) and ride through the night.

I'm planning a 400K that starts at midnight. I'm hoping that I can get to the start city with time for a nap. Assuming I have time, should I really try to get as much sleep as possible, or just a cat nap. I've done 24-hour races, but they always started in the morning.

I did a 400k about two weeks ago that had a 1 am start time and a start location that was about 90 minutes from my house by car.

Like Machka, I also abide by the 90 minute sleep cycle theory, so after leaving work at 5pm, I rode home, had a quick dinner and was in bed by 7pm. Woke 3 hours later at 10, got my kit together and was at the start by midnight. I could've given myself more time to sleep, but, again, didn't want to get into another sleep cycle. Randonneuring is, if anything, a great way to wean oneself off the old snooze alarm.

In my experience, when I get a nap with a couple of sleep cycles in before the ride, I can usually go for about 17 hours before the sleep deprivation catches up to me and I start to get groggy. With a 1 am start, this usually means that I start getting sleepy around 6pm, and the effects can be countered with the standard tactics (caffeine, sweets, brief sprinting, etc.)

I have also done a couple of fleches that are similar in time and distance to a 400k with 5 or 7pm starts that were not preceded by any sort of nap. Under those conditions, I find that sleep deprivation hits me about 6 hours into the ride, when it's around midnight or 1am, and the sleepiness is excacerbated by cold temperatures, darkness and isolation, which makes things much more difficult.

Regarding the night time starts, I prefer late night starts for this reason and also because it confines the time commitment of the 400k to one day. A 400k that starts at 6am on a Saturday will tend to end, for me, at 3am on a Sunday and will likely require significant portions of Sunday for rest and recuperation. Starting at 1am, means that I finish at 10pm, and gets me to bed at a normal time. I also prefer dealing with the night at the beginning of the ride when I'm fresh and awake, rather than at the end, when I'm tired.

I can't comment on the logic of using the night time starts to train one for the starts on PBP (if you're an 84 hour starter, you get to start in the daylight anyway, so why not give folks a daytime start option on a 400?) but I can see the logic in using the night time starts to force everyone to deal with some night riding. Particularly fast riders can put a 400k away in 15-16 hours, so a 6am start would mean a 9pm finish. Around this time of year, that's pretty much a sunrise to just after sunset ride, and is poor training for any of the longer rides.

If you want to train yourself for the 36th hour of any 1200k (not just PBP), I'd recommend going into your 400k without sleep. I'd also recommend riding your 600k straight through. Both experiences offer decent simulations of late hour grogginess and give you a chance to sort out tactics for dealing with it.

Regarding the logic of a midnight start, I can not speak to the specific reason for that brevet, but as an organizer of brevets it might have more to do with a control along the course being open for a limited time - during the day for instance. I have varied the start time on rides so that the time that a control is open matches the hours that an establishment is open. This is not a problem if all your controls are 24 hour operations but it can be a huge problem on longer rides, in remote areas, with limited control options. My guess is that the night start at PBP has something to do with the limiting the traffic congestion around SQY. The start at PBP effectively closes those roads, and that could be a problem - just try and close that many roads in your town or city.

Some organizers just figure you are a randonneur, deal with it.

If event organizers want to measure how well their riders perform under reduced sleep, and people want to know how they make decisions and function while sleep deprived, then there's really no reason to involve a bicycle in the equation.

As an organizer, I'm not particularly interested in measuring anything other than the overall preparedness of rider and machine.

If we were to apply the logic above then all long brevets would be verboten. We should just ban the sport.

Our 3am starts (the UIE 2,000 started from here six hours ago) are logistical and, in some cases, to get over a particular pass, or other busy highway before the morning traffic begins.

As an organizer, I'm not particularly interested in measuring anything other than the overall preparedness of rider and machine.

If we were to apply the logic above then all long brevets would be verboten. We should just ban the sport.

Our 3am starts (the UIE 2,000 started from here six hours ago) are logistical and, in some cases, to get over a particular pass, or other busy highway before the morning traffic begins.

Nothing in my post logically leads to banning the sport. It's my opinion is that there is no sound reason to require all riders to start brevets after a full day of wakefullness. It can be especially inconvnient for those with work or other responsibilities the day of the ride, and I question from a safety perspective whether whatever gains one might get from the "experience" of being sleep deprived are worth it in terms of the added risk of having more riders out at night when the bars are still open and having riders on the road when they've only had a few hours' sleep before an event.

Using a certain start time to get most riders clear of a pass, a big town, or some other feature makes a lot of sense.

For those who think this kind of experience -- riding sleep deprived -- should be required of all riders, I do call hogwash, though. I've finished 400K in daylight before. I don't think that I, and the others that can do this, are somehow lacking in randonneuring experience by virtue of how fast we can ride. I don't recall whether the BQ PBP survey asked questions about this, but I'd guess that there's no correlation between whether one had ever ridden a 600K straight-trough, or whether one had done a brevet with a night-time start, and success rate on PBP.

I know others disagree; that's fine. It's the internet folks. Opinions are worth what you paid for them.

Edited to add: By "nighttime," I'm talking about 10pm, midnight, 1am -- that kind of thing. It's admitted an imprecise term. 3am seems fine to me, if there's a good reason for it.

I kind of like the 3am start for the simple fact that traffic is super low and everything is really peaceful. As someone who is still new to the sport but has both ridden a 3am brevet and helped organize brevets that start early I really appreciate that start time.

In my line of work(baker) I am required to begin my work day at 5am(sometimes earlier) this makes waking up just a few hours earlier a little easier on me. Plus you do get to enjoy the best part of the day (sunrise) I am also very used to riding at weird early hours of the morning to commute to work especially in the winter months which I feel help when it comes time for a 3am brevet start.

Best of luck to the 3 crazy guys Keith, Yutaka(from Japan) and Eric who set off on the 2nd ever ultimate island explorer 2000km brevet this morning. I got to see these guys off from Tim Horton's here in Victoria B.C at the ripe hour of 3am. Even though it was very early in the morning it was very inpsiring to see 3 guys setting off for a super adventure.

For those who think this kind of experience -- riding sleep deprived -- should be required of all riders, I do call hogwash, though.

Who thinks that riding sleep deprived should be required of all riders? I don't think anyone really suggested that's what the point of the midnight start is. Unless the information that circulated through the randonneuring world on or about April First is an April Fool's joke, clubs were encouraged to have a night start for their 400Ks so that riders could get used to the night starts on the PBP.

Yes, there are a few riders who do the 4 am start, but the bulk of the riders do the 10-11 pm start ... and evidently the night start was a topic of discussion and concern this year among the PBP people. (Possibly because of the number of people sleeping just a few hours into the ride, which didn't happen in 2003??)

The night start doesn't train people to ride sleep deprived, rather it should train people to figure out how to acquire enough sleep prior to the event. I have figured that out ... I nailed it when I did the RM1200. What I did before that ride worked really well ... and has worked since.

One of the things I researched was the 90 minute sleep cycles, and I've found that if I fit my sleep into that time period, it works for me ... both in cycling, and also in doing things like studying for and writing exams. So perhaps that's something riders need to do ... see if a 1.5 or 3 hour nap just before the event provides them with enough sleep to get several hundred km up the road in a non-sleep deprived state.

Who thinks that riding sleep deprived should be required of all riders? I don't think anyone really suggested that's what the point of the midnight start is. Unless the information that circulated through the randonneuring world on or about April First is an April Fool's joke, clubs were encouraged to have a night start for their 400Ks so that riders could get used to the night starts on the PBP.

Ok, "starting the ride without adequate sleep" instead of "riding sleep deprived." I don't think there's much of a material difference. I think the former leads more quickly to the latter, and I question the necessity of imparting this "experience" on the entire randonneuring population. (I understand there are some who work third-shift or who can readily adjust the time of day they sleep; I don't think that's a majority of randonneurs, though.)

That it's night and that most people will have been up all day, with maybe a nap at best, before they start is not the only thing tricky about the 10pm PBP start. Brevet organizers weren't encouraged to make their riders stand around for hours (in time rain!) before the ride start. And no one encourages brevet organizers to put their riders in situations where they must ride in a tight pack of cyclists for hours. Riders get a pass on "experiencing" these two things that are also hallmarks of PBP; I'd similarly spare them the increased risk of sleep deprivation.

[Cue sales pitch for the 84-hour start, at the civilized hour of 5am..... A good night's sleep, no waiting in the rain, and half the DNF rate of the 90-hour start....]

yes, just for clarification, when I posted my individual reasoning for a 1am or 3am start, it was with a mind of training riders for various aspects of nighttime riding (ie. testing your lighting setup, navigating in the dark, dealing with cold/isolation/misc environmental factors, etc.) Sleep deprivation is only one aspect of night riding, and I only meant to indicate that people should consider going into their 400k without adequate sleep only if they were interested in getting an idea of what it may be like to be 36 hours into a 1200k and develop strategies to handle that in advance. I realize that goal, in and of itself, is a bit risky and wasn't, in any way, advocating that as a universal approach.

My preference is always to go into any ride with an adequate amount of sleep. It's just for the purposes of assessing how one would do on the nighttime segments of a 1000k or 1200k, I think it's more useful to have a ride that forces one into dealing with more than 4 hours of darkness rather than one that is started in daylight and could be finished after only one hour of sunset.

Your points about the risk of having riders on the road during "the witching hour" when bars close is valid, and routes should take that into account and keep riders off main roads during that time, but again, on a 400k, where there will likely be riders on the route between 15 and 26 hours into the ride, it's unavoidable that some folks will be on the ride when bars close. In this case, I think it would still be better to have that happen earlier in the ride, when the pack is closer together and can be routed more easily, than later, when the field is spread out and it becomes harder to predict who will be where when 2am hits and the barflies reach for their car keys.

I found that sleep deprivation wasn't really an issue on a 600k. I probably would have done better with a short nap. I suppose some people need to experience sleep deprivation. Certainly, forcing people to ride at night on shorter rides is a good thing. 300k and shorter just doesn't test the lighting systems that much.

It's my understanding that the midnight start is to let us hit a few of the controls while they're open. It's over the 4th of July, so maybe it's also so we can see some fireworks on the second night. :)

Huh? Who me? Am I on the air?Yeah, well the original question was about trying to sleep directly before an event. -- Answer - yes, no maybe - your mileage may vary. C'mon, everyone and every situation is different - how you "think" sleep helps or hinders your starting routine and performance is pure, unadulterated speculation. No science either way - that I know of.

Now, for a real "RC idea" - about starting brevets at midnight - there's no good argument that there is anything "trainable" or any other value to it. There's a good chance that starting brevets in the middle of the night is useless as well.

The bottom line, starting brevets at first light will always be the best use of riding environments. And will favor the best use of known normal circadian rhythms as well.

Obviously, some RBAs shape their brevets around their own bias toward certain ride and route features. (hills, pavement, relative's homes etc) It my understanding that they act like big babies if anyone challenges their expertise or judgment.

So its best just to pay your dues, shut up and ride.

[Cue sales pitch for the 84-hour start, at the civilized hour of 5am..... A good night's sleep, no waiting in the rain, and half the DNF rate of the 90-hour start....]

The higher dnf rate is probably not a result of starting at night, but of the lesser ability of people (like me) who choose 90 hours. If you are a newbie, or light on training or ability, you will try for 90. If you pick 84, you are probably: hard core, veteran, already finished in 85 or less, etc.

Now, for a real "RC idea" - about starting brevets at midnight - there's no good argument that there is anything "trainable" or any other value to it. There's a good chance that starting brevets in the middle of the night is useless as well.

The bottom line, starting brevets at first light will always be the best use of riding environments. And will favor the best use of known normal circadian rhythms as well.

FWIW, this may be one of like three things that RC and I have agreed on over the last several years. Katie bar the door!

I'll push my luck and say that the ability to "train" for nighttime starts probably means doing them all the time. Why should this aspect of "training" be different than any other, in which the subject needs to be exposed to a certain stress repeatedly to benefit from it. I know Danny Chew tried this when training for RAAM -- the guy really pushed the limits of what could be done with little or no sleep. I wonder what he'd say about the benefits of that training. He ended up getting 180 minutes of sleep a night on his RAAMs -- maybe it let him function much better on that little sleep than he would have without the training? Who knows. None of us are Danny Chew; we're probably better off in all scenarios with as much sleep as we can get before a ride, which means most of us are better off with start times in the morning, not too far from when we'd otherwise wake and start our day.

As for testing lighting systems, in this day and age, there are so many good choices out there that this probably isn't the issue that it once was. And the availability of information on the internets and elsewhere about what riding a 400K, 600K, or 1200K is like probably gives perceptive prospective riders a pretty good idea of what the issues are with the longer rides and what some of the solutions to those problems are.

Pending qualification on this weekend's 600K, I'll be riding the Gold Rush next month, which has a 6pm start time. I know well the reason why that ride starts then -- the Central Valley is hotter than hell this time of year. Makes sense to cross it at night. Still, figuring out how and where and when to sleep on a ride like that is a tricky proposition. Whatever the solution is, though, I think I'll be best off with as much sleep as I can get in the days before that ride starts.

As for testing lighting systems, in this day and age, there are so many good choices out there that this probably isn't the issue that it once was. And the availability of information on the internets and elsewhere about what riding a 400K, 600K, or 1200K is like probably gives perceptive prospective riders a pretty good idea of what the issues are with the longer rides and what some of the solutions to those problems are. You can replace 'lighting systems' in the above post with 'baggage', 'tires' or 'saddles'; and I think we'll still be talking about equipment that is well reviewed and well described online, but still requires a rider to personally try out said equipment and see how it works for them specifically, on their bike. The only difference is that baggage, saddles and tires can be adequately evaluated on centuries ridden between sunrise and sunset. I don't agree that a surfeit of data is an adequate replacement for experience, but I don't think we're altering each other's opinions on this thread, so I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

Pending qualification on this weekend's 600K, I'll be riding the Gold Rush next month, which has a 6pm start time. I know well the reason why that ride starts then -- the Central Valley is hotter than hell this time of year. Makes sense to cross it at night. Still, figuring out how and where and when to sleep on a ride like that is a tricky proposition. Whatever the solution is, though, I think I'll be best off with as much sleep as I can get in the days before that ride starts.

Good luck, Octopus! I'm going to be travelling to Canada on Saturday to participate in the Hare & Tortoise 1000k on Vancouver Island. The ride has a 2am start time, though, I'm not particularly sure why. Personally it works out well in that I can time my sleep stops with the availability of services along the less populated northern section of the island; but I'm also planning to get a lot of sleep time in the bank before setting out. The one warning I got from Ken Bonner was: "don't sleep by the side of the road! There's cougars out there and you won't see 'em."

Of course - I left out the part - where people "think" they are better prepared is they piss their spouses off by getting out of bed at 2:00am to go on bike ride. And it is true - that this does support the idea in knowing how to start the coffee maker and slip out the garage door without getting the dog to start begging for a walk - but then again - that's not actually training.......