Foo - Do you like the vocoder effect?

Ok here is an example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F444CELomo
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5xsiKBJGW4

There are many more, but I guess you know what I'm talking about.

Now, am I the only one who thinks it's bluntly the dumbest effect to hit the music business since like forever. Yea I know it's futuristic sounding and all, but seriously, you can acheive the same effect by hitting your vocal chords with your hand on the neck.

This effect is nothing new. It came out in sixties with almost any synth that had a vocoder. Do you ever wonder why nobody used it just untill recently.....Because it sounds DUMB and sterile.

So here is my message to these new school producers out there.

Let it go. It doesn't sound good and it's nothing new. You can only mask the bad vocals with it or ruin the good ones and those are only two things you can do with this "magical" effect and it holds no artistic merritt.

Yeah of course. its awesome.

My favourite uses of it. T-Pain in Im on a Boat. and the futurepop group Mind in a box.

nope

YouTube - Auto-Tune the News #4: spa regulation. serbians. sotomayor.
Sometimes it works.

^^^^

I guess,,,that was funny

Like all audio effects, its fun to play around with in the studio, but for an album, overuse of *any* effect gets old.

You can see this on new albums. Korg, Yamaha, Nord, or anything creates a synth with a bunch of new sounds on it. In several months to a year, you hear the same sounds overused for about 6-9 months, then fades away to obscurity. In some cases, you can date albums to what sounds they have, unless they are doing a retro sound, and their band found a Mellotron or B3 + Leslie speaker found in the attic.

:lol:

It didn't really help Cher (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5xsiKBJGW4).

Like all audio effects, its fun to play around with in the studio, but for an album, overuse of *any* effect gets old.

You can see this on new albums. Korg, Yamaha, Nord, or anything creates a synth with a bunch of new sounds on it. In several months to a year, you hear the same sounds overused for about 6-9 months, then fades away to obscurity. In some cases, you can date albums to what sounds they have, unless they are doing a retro sound, and their band found a Mellotron or B3 + Leslie speaker found in the attic.

That effect is unlike any other.

You can get away with using an old synth and still make it sound cool or to get a retro sound with an old Moog or something similar and really give a nice touch to a track

BUT this auto-tune/vocoder is just ....I mean I literally feel like my brain is deteriorating when I listen to any track that has that. I can see Paris Hilton really rocking out to a song like that, riding in a limo and looking at a sky without a thought in her head..

Yeah of course. its awesome.

My favourite uses of it. T-Pain in Im on a Boat. and the futurepop group Mind in a box.

I'm on a boat!

That effect is unlike any other.

You can get away with using an old synth and still make it sound cool or to get a retro sound with an old Moog or something similar and really give a nice touch to a track

BUT this auto-tune/vocoder is just ....I mean I literally feel like my brain is deteriorating when I listen to any track that has that. I can see Paris Hilton really rocking out to a song like that, riding in a limo and looking at a sky without a thought in her head..


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

vocoder effect? :crash:

Daft Punk gets a pass from me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9MszVE7aR4

It's so old. It's so lame. It does not compensate for the staggeringly inadequate songwriting of recent years either.

Friggin turkeys.

Oh yeah, I totally love that music is no longer about having any artistic ability and is now only about finding a cute chick you can fix with computers. It's GREAT! :mad::rolleyes::twitchy::(:cry::cry::cry:

Frampton did it the old fashioned way (starts around 2:40)

YouTube - Peter Frampton "Do You Feel Like We Do_Pt.2" 1976

Daft Punk gets a pass from me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9MszVE7aR4


Not the same. Daft Punk processed that one sample really well and made it sound good for what it is. There is also a nice filter doing the job there. Complitely a different game there.


Frampton did it the old fashioned way (starts around 2:40)

YouTube - Peter Frampton "Do You Feel Like We Do_Pt.2" 1976 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHfC3PWxqrE&feature=related)

Very much different and sounds good too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_box

Vocoders and spelling out words in lieu of actually using words gets a thumbs down from me. Well, unless you are Aretha Franklin.

This is where I argue that Neil Young's Trans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_(album)) is an overlooked gem. I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me, but I really do like the album.

So here is my message to these new school producers out there.

Let it go. It doesn't sound good and it's nothing new. You can only mask the bad vocals with it or ruin the good ones and those are only two things you can do with this "magical" effect and it holds no artistic merritt.

Oh ****, this is comedy. I am with the OP. I hate that crap. Why screw up a perfectly good song? It is just as bad as a singer holding a note for ten minutes during a concert. Let it go and get on with the song.

Great. Now youtube thinks I like Cher and the black eyed peas. My recommendations are shot.
Thanks

Seriously.... lame effect.

This is where I argue that Neil Young's Trans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_(album)) is an overlooked gem. I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me, but I really do like the album.

I sort of do. I saw him on the Trans tour. I really like the Crazy Horse stuff better, but this was interesting.

Chuck Garvey of moe. uses it sparingly and to great effect.

This is where I argue that Neil Young's Trans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_(album)) is an overlooked gem. I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me, but I really do like the album.


I managed to never hear a note of Trans in 20+ years, due to the fact that every single review of it I read completely panned it. Hard.

And then 3 or 4 nights ago I'm channel surfing and PBS has this Neil Young special on, during which they showed a brief clip of him performing some Trans material live (with Nils Lofgrin in the band -- Nils & Neal are both wearing headset mics run through vocoders, and there's not an ounce of dry unprocessed vocals in the mix, just pure vocoded synth.)

Freaking amazing

...in that "I am 100% speechless" sense of amazing.

Not only is it a crutch for people that can't actually sing, it sounds terrible.

But then again, 99.9999999% of modern popular music is feculent tripe anyway.

No. I find the pulse annoying. You can hear the fade and oscillation.

i shudder every time I hear that Jamie Foxx song about his alcohol blasting from some high school jerks' windows

No. I find the pulse annoying. You can hear the fade and oscillation.

Well, not if you speed it up.

Don't try this at home.

This is where I argue that Neil Young's Trans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_%28album%29) is an overlooked gem. I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me, but I really do like the album.


Sample and Hold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwGkh--jHqI) is awesome

Sweet :). Foo surprises me yet again.

oh, and in regards to the OP's question:

I actually like (or at least bemusedly tolerate) the vocoder effect. What I can't stand is the AutoTune effect which winds up sounding almost exactly like a vocoder.

Yeah, I know, splitting hairs... The thing is, with a real vocoder no one ever believed they were fooling anyone into thinking it was a real person singing, it was all about making a synthesizer sing. But with AutoTune, it starts out with producers & artists (sic) trying to make people think a real non-singer can sing, and then getting carried away with the effect.

Plus AutoTune (and Melodyne etc.) are too grainy and two-dimensional imho.

It's been used in many many tunes in the past present and no doubt the future, I'm pretty sure its NOT the future of music, but it will be used again and that doesn't bother me a bit, matter of fact I think "Boom Boom Pow" is great for rippin' it up on the dance floor, at least me and the wife think so. :thumb:

I think "Boom Boom Pow" is great for rippin' it up on the dance floor, at least me and the wife think so. :thumb:

:twitchy:No offense, but if I here that song one more time I think I will commit hari kari:crash::crash:

It's been used in many many tunes in the past present and no doubt the future, I'm pretty sure its NOT the future of music, but it will be used again and that doesn't bother me a bit, matter of fact I think "Boom Boom Pow" is great for rippin' it up on the dance floor, at least me and the wife think so. :thumb:


Actually I like that song from Black Eyed Peas and I like the band in general, especially Fergies vocals and the way she looks, but the use of auto tune in almost every verse took something away from it even it proves their point.

edit: but this is coming from the music geek so....

Actually I think the song would have been much better if they used a real vocoder instead of auto tune...but i guess they are so 3008.

Actually I like that song from Black Eyed Peas and I like the band in general, especially Fergies vocals and the way she looks, but the use of auto tune in almost every verse took something away from it even it proves their point.

edit: but this is coming from the music geek so....

Actually I think the song would have been much better if they used a real vocoder instead of auto tune...but i guess they are so 3008.

Seen this?

http://www.collegeotr.com/pennsylvania_state_university/fergie_to_perform_pee_pants_at_beaver_stadium_in_april_6063

^^^

Yea and now i'll have to delete it from my memory banks yet again

thank a lot

Thanks to this thread, I've learned I can't tell the difference between a vocoder, autotune, or a talkbox. And from a trip through the interwebz, neither can most people. Actual exchange:

"If you're anti-autotune you're officially not allowed to listen to any of your favorite Daft Punk songs."
"Educate yourself on audio synthesis before commenting about it. The Autotune that is so popular in rap music is a completely different process of vocal treatment than what Daft Punk uses via the Vocoder."
"Daft Punk didn't use vocoders or autotune, they used a Talk Box."

So, for the education of those of us who are tone-deaf, would one of you musicians please put a sample through autotune, a vocoder, and a talkbox so we can [possibly] hear the difference?

Thanks! :)

Thanks to this thread, I've learned I can't tell the difference between a vocoder, autotune, or a talkbox. And from a trip through the interwebz, neither can most people. Actual exchange:

"If you're anti-autotune you're officially not allowed to listen to any of your favorite Daft Punk songs."
"Educate yourself on audio synthesis before commenting about it. The Autotune that is so popular in rap music is a completely different process of vocal treatment than what Daft Punk uses via the Vocoder."
"Daft Punk didn't use vocoders or autotune, they used a Talk Box."

So, for the education of those of us who are tone-deaf, would one of you musicians please put a sample through autotune, a vocoder, and a talkbox so we can [possibly] hear the difference?

Thanks! :)


K then

First off, in my first post I was half way misleading. Basically I was specifically refering to the Auto-Tune, which is based on a vocoder, except it can make vocals sound very perfect in tune and also like a vocoder where it can be programed in a way that it seems like the vocals are being played like a synth. Some artists, like Britney Spears, use it in a way that it can not be detected by most people and some use it in the way that it can be detected like Cher in Believe (sounds like a vocoder to me, but hey...)where it produces that futuristic feel but lacking in harmonics that a vocoder can produce. Most "artists" use it in a way where it cannot be detected by most listeners.

Autotune Exposed..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xX6OwNk8sk
Brittney: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkIytHD5v9c (trust me, it's there)
http://www.hometracked.com/2008/02/05/auto-tune-abuse-in-pop-music-10-examples/
T-Pain - I'm Sprung.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ichSb-1HSiY
Keith Urban - Somebody Like You.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9s-ZTCawak (pay close attention)
Aqualung-Strange & Beautiful.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt_DipsGf_w
Robbie Williams-Angels.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73KIIOBCfK0
Avril Lavigne - Complicated.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeBQZGlhtR4
jojo- too little too late.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfbz2nwMkKg
Backstreetboys-Incomplete.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YLEcXKcEvA

Jay-Z - D.O.A. [Death of Autotune].... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMuf_ekJhOs

Autotune - Black Eyed Peas [Boom Boom Pow Parody] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l0LXWiHUkA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Tune

_________________________________________________________________
Vocoder can be programed in almost the same way as auto tune where it will sound like the vocals are played like a synth without too many harmonics, or you can add harmonics and make it sound like so many things. I used to have Korg MS 2000 and I know this for a fact. What you do is sing through a mic and play the keys at the same time. It can sound like a robot, intergalactic choir when you play chords, devil, chipmonk, I mean possibilities are endless. You can add any kind of filter, oscillator, envelope, AND it can all be donne LIVE. Most artists program it in a way where a lot of harmonics and effects are added.

Kraftwerk - The Robots.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXa9tXcMhXQ
Imogen Heap - Hide and Seek.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHk2lLaDzlM
Griffin - No Humans Allowed.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtJ-lCghS1s&feature=related
Daft Punk - One More Time.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgtBlnOX6VA (that might be auto tune, not sure)
Styx - Mr. Roboto.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBtZk13miAE

microKORG VOCODER.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6Dt_CQ0-TQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocoder

_________________________________________________
Talk Box uses guitar to control the vocal. When you sing into it, the tone of quitar tunes the vocals and adds distortion like harmonics to the vocals and therefor syncs it with the guitar and makes it seem like one, IF I'm not mistaken. It can be used with any instrument.

Pink Floyd - Keep Talking.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwS2Cgsy8Do
Peter Frampton and Talk Box Live.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9D-kUEp03c
Bon Jovi - Livin' On A Prayer with talk box (by Stuart Blight).. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtJaYEGh3Sk
http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/yradish/66/songs-that-feature-talk-box/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_box

I had a microKORG for a while, and I could not for the life of me get that vocoder to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA

K then

First off, in my first post I was half way misleading. Basically I was specifically refering to the Auto-Tune, which is based on a vocoder, except it can make vocals sound very perfect in tune and also like a vocoder where it can be programed in a way that it seems like the vocals are being played like a synth. Some artists, like Britney Spears, use it in a way that it can not be detected by most people and some use it in the way that it can be detected like Cher in Believe (sounds like a vocoder to me, but hey...)where it produces that futuristic feel but lacking in harmonics that a vocoder can produce.

Autotune Exposed..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xX6OwNk8sk
ummm, why is he naked?


Brittney: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkIytHD5v9c (trust me, it's there)

Keith Urban - Somebody Like You.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9s-ZTCawak (pay close attention)

seriously, is there anyone who can't hear it in these? Do you really think that's subtle? It's about as subtle as electronic drumkits :D

That's why I hate it so much, it's painful to listen to everything blip up and sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

BTW - thanks for taking the time to do this. You put a lot of work in there to educate the masses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA

That was awesome

Thanks spock, very informative.

The loudness war is bad enough, now I've got something else to obsess over. :thumb:

You don't like it? Man, it's so 3008...and you're so 2000 and late! ;)

I can't stop listening to Boom Boom Pow!!!!

I can't stop listening to Boom Boom Pow!!!!


I guess you got that dig
-------------------------------ital spit, but I won't be jac
------------------------------------------------------------------kin' your st
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------yle...

-----------------Boom
boom boom/

I was specifically refering to the Auto-Tune, which is based on a vocoder, except it can make vocals sound very perfect in tune and also like a vocoder where it can be programed in a way that it seems like the vocals are being played like a synth. ...where it produces that futuristic feel but lacking in harmonics that a vocoder can produce.

Vocoder can be programed in almost the same way as auto tune where it will sound like the vocals are played like a synth without too many harmonics, or you can add harmonics and make it sound like so many things. I used to have Korg MS 2000 and I know this for a fact. What you do is sing through a mic and play the keys at the same time. It can sound like a robot, intergalactic choir when you play chords, devil, chipmonk, I mean possibilities are endless. You can add any kind of filter, oscillator, envelope, AND it can all be donne LIVE. Most artists program it in a way where a lot of harmonics and effects are added.

Talk Box uses guitar to control the vocal. When you sing into it, the tone of quitar tunes the vocals and adds distortion like harmonics to the vocals and therefor syncs it with the guitar and makes it seem like one, IF I'm not mistaken. It can be used with any instrument.


Um... some slightly more objective details for those who care:

A vocoder takes the signal from a musical instrument (usually a synthesizer) called the Carrier and separates it into several discrete frequency bands (similiar to the crossover networks which divide highs & lows between tweeters & woofers in your speaker system...only most vocoders have a lot more than two bands, typically between 12 and 32). The output of each of those separate bands is fed through a separate voltage controlled amplifier whose envelope characteristics are determined by the signal from another musical instrument (usually a sung or spoken voice) called the Modulator which has also been separated into several discrete frequency bands; the output of each of those separate bands is fed through its own envelope follower, which creates a control voltage based on the Attack/Release profile (i.e, the energy over time) of the signal passing through that. So each of those (let's say 12) envelope followers creates a voltage based on how a narrow band of frequencies behaves over time, and then maps that energy-over-time characteristic onto the corresponding narrow band of frequencies being generated by the Carrier. Those 12 discrete, independant frequency bands of synthesizer (Carrier) with these mapped-onto energy-over-time profiles extracted from the voice (Modulator) then get reassembled (summed) to yield a more-or-less full-frequency (wideband) signal that has the pitch and harmonic content of the synthesizer but with the deconstructed Attack/Release characteristics of a speaking voice morphed over it.

A Talk Box is way way simpler: It's a speaker in a box, with a hose coming out of the box. And then a brave musician puts the other end of that hose into their mouth. A musical instrument (typically electric guitar, sometimes synthesizer) is amplified & fed into the speaker. The sound from the speaker goes through the hose, into the person's mouth, and that person moves their mouth to silently form the shapes that would otherwise create speech if they were actually talking...but they're not talking, they're just moving their mouth while the sound of the electric guitar (or synth) comes out of their mouth. They're essentially changing the resonant formants of a very tiny acoustic environment which in turn filters the harmonic content of the musical signal.

I have yet to hear a decent explanation of how AutoTune really works, but my guess is that a proprietary analysis algorithm identifies the fundamental pitch of a sung note and then uses conventional digital pitch-shifting/time-compression methods (reading from a buffer at a different sample rate than it was recorded at) to alter that fundamental pitch.

So while both vocoding and TalkBoxes morph speech onto musical information generated by a second instrument, AutoTune simply alters the musical information already contained in a sung part.

But I suspect the examples Spock posted are way more helpful than either of our explanations!

I listened to as much of that Keith Urban song as I can stand and I can't hear the autotune...is it at a certain point?

All I can see in that song is pansy white-folk lovefest.

Imogen Heap is the answer.

I listened to as much of that Keith Urban song as I can stand and I can't hear the autotune...is it at a certain point?

All I can see in that song is pansy white-folk lovefest.

It starts as soon as he opens his mouth, but listen to "I wanna love somebody" at 37seconds, it's pretty blatant there.