"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Question about catching dropped riders in a road race.

So here's a question about road race rules.

There's an upcoming road race on a 10-mile loop that has 2 immense hills. The Masters 35/45+ guys are starting 5 minutes before the Cat 4s. You can guarantee that there is going to be a ton of overlap between the front of the Cat 4 field and the off-the-back master's riders. In fact, both fields will probably be demolished to tons of small groups and scattered riders.

Being optimistic, if I catch up to a Master's rider that has been dropped, can I work with him?

Let's make 2 assumptions: (a) I'm not in the lead group of the race, so I'm no longer in the rolling enclosure and (b) He's been dropped out of his rolling enclosure.

I think it's safe to say that if you're in the rolling enclosure, you shouldn't be allowed to draft the field in front of you, right? Unless... what if you go off the front and catch the master's field before your field does? What are the rules on jumping in another field?

FWIW, I'm thinking about the Lost River Classic in MABRA. With the two climbs, it's gonna be epic.

USAC rules say that in a road race, you may not work with riders who started in a different race than you, no matter the circumstances. The party being overtaken usually must yield.

Though you may not be called out for it if you're that far behind.

It's against the rules, but if you're both dropped nobody will really care.

The big no no is if you are OTF and draft someone from another field.

Thanks guys. Mike, can you tell me where that's in the rule book? I need a source to give a pal.

what if you go off the front and catch the master's field before your field does? What are the rules on jumping in another field?

I've been in this exact situation twice. Both times the field was neutralized by my lead vehicle to let me pass.

"3B5. Taking pace or assistance from any outside means is forbidden, including holding onto a motor vehicle or taking pace from riders in a different race that is concurrently on the same course [relegation or disqualification]"

the [] is the penalty

perfecto.

Although like someone said, i doubt it's enforced for riders way OTB. Refs probably think "whatever gets them across the line pedaling..."

is this w/respect to Lost River?

You can't but everyone does when they are truly out of contention.

Not many people are going to worry about two isolated, dropped riders from different fields. If you get dropped, then jump in that masters field that's about to catch your own race, someone may have a legitimate complaint about you.

is this w/respect to Lost River?

yes

If you're catching a slower rider, how long do you really want to work with them?

How about don't get dropped so this isn't an issue?

Thanks guys. Mike, can you tell me where that's in the rule book? I need a source to give a pal.

The officials will make you aware of the rule before the start.... dont worry

If you're catching a slower rider, how long do you really want to work with them?

As a hypothetical if it is a lower cat/higher cat race and the "slower" rider is the lower cat and is falling off the back to help the higher cat teammate that had a mechanical/"nature break"/"just wasn't paying attention" moment it might work.

On second thought that scenario in a typical race would require that pigs fly.:lol:

I know of one race where riders from different fields working together is explicitly allowed... and supposedly one year a bunch of 4s started off fast on the unmarshalled neutral rollout, caught the masters pack 5 minutes ahead, and then paced a masters teamate up to the p/1/2s. He was a serious contender for the overall and was going to be riding with the top p/1/2 riders anyhow, but that move put him 5 minutes up on them without him having to break away from them.

That's probably why it's normally not allowed.

How about don't get dropped so this isn't an issue?

I'm not worried about the getting dropped part since this is finally a climber's course. However there are some long gradual descents and a good bit of flat, too. I'm worried about masters guys that get dropped on the climb trying to hang onto the group of the field behind them, not knowing it could be the lead group.

And this information wasn't for the officials. My team's organizing the race, so I asked the race organizer and he didn't know. So he told me to find out for him.

I know of one race where riders from different fields working together is explicitly allowed... and supposedly one year a bunch of 4s started off fast on the unmarshalled neutral rollout, caught the masters pack 5 minutes ahead, and then paced a masters teamate up to the p/1/2s. He was a serious contender for the overall and was going to be riding with the top p/1/2 riders anyhow, but that move put him 5 minutes up on them without him having to break away from them.

That's probably why it's normally not allowed.

Lindsay at EC a few years ago?

http://www.usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf

http://www.usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf

you're like the librarian who, when asked where a particular book is located, tells the kid "The car rack is over there. You know dewey decimal, right?"

sorry, thought he asked for the rule book

sorry, thought he asked for the rule book

i'm just cracking a bad joke at your expense, don't mind me :thumb:

Similar non-US experience from last weekend:

I start in the "B" group on a local 66 km RR. On the way back with about 10 km to go I suddenly notice that the first 3 riders have a large gap and are pulling away. I sprint past the back and bridge at 50+ km/h. As I get closer to the break I notice that the (ridiculous) pace is being set by an "A" category rider (holder of a couple of local TT records) who was dropped by his pack.

I didn't realize that I also towed up another rider, who is an LBS owner and sponsor of the race. I wasn't happy about the increased pace, but figure with 10 km to go the 5 of us would stay away for sure. The LBS owner had other ideas and blasted the A category rider who dropped off the back of our pack.

kaNUK

so did you stay away?

Of course not, with our locomotive gone everyone sat up and waited for the sprint, lol.

Lost that by half a wheel (which I'm Ok with :thumb:)

kaNUK

I had some juniors jump on my wheel at a Tradezone as I passed them (trying to bridge from a chase group to the peloton after getting caught behind a crash - I wasn't up to anything impressive). They hopped on my wheel, I thought they were people who'd followed me off the chase group, they got yelled at as we passed the line.

Now with all these really really short laps here in DC crits, it's not unlikely to imagine a really good break lapping the field - at which point people from the peloton would likely hop on their wheels, not knowing what was up... And what if the officials didn't recognize what happened? I've wondered about this... not that I'm likely to be the one lapping the field.

You can work with riders from the same race that are not on the same lap. It's ok to jump on guys that are lapping the field...

You can work with riders from the same race that are not on the same lap. It's ok to jump on guys that are lapping the field...

True, but it is NOT okay to work with riders who have been lapped, though, right? Or else you could have 5 guys on your team essentially sit out the first 4 laps and then have them fresh for the last lap.

That makes no sense. You're saying the lapped riders can work with the lapping but not vice versa. How else could you rejoin the field? Otherwise, you'd need to try to break away again.

These rules don't apply for crits, where (generally) only one field is on the course. Most crits should allow for lapped/lapping riders to work together, provided the rider being lapped didnt drop back from the field just to help the lapping rider.

That makes no sense. You're saying the lapped riders can work with the lapping but not vice versa. How else could you rejoin the field? Otherwise, you'd need to try to break away again.

Yeah, it makes sense. If you are in a break and lap the field, you win when the field crosses the line on the last lap even if you are not the first person in the pack to cross. On the other hand, if you get dropped and lapped, you should have been pulled, and if you have not been, you can't just rejoin the field and start helping your teammates. And yes, if a break laps the field, technically to "catch" them, the rest of the field would have to break away for them and lap them.

True, but it is NOT okay to work with riders who have been lapped, though, right? Or else you could have 5 guys on your team essentially sit out the first 4 laps and then have them fresh for the last lap.

Lapped riders are usually cut. If the whole field is lapped by a few riders the field is not cut. The lapping riders usually just integrate into the pack. Everybody finishes on the lap of the lead riders, so the leaders will be sprinting in the midst of the rest of the field.

Yeah, it makes sense. If you are in a break and lap the field, you win when the field crosses the line on the last lap even if you are not the first person in the pack to cross. On the other hand, if you get dropped and lapped, you should have been pulled, and if you have not been, you can't just rejoin the field and start helping your teammates. And yes, if a break laps the field, technically to "catch" them, the rest of the field would have to break away for them and lap them.

If a lapped rider is not cut I do not believe (but could be wrong) that there is a rule against them rejoining the field and simply being a lap down. I seem to recall that there may be a rule against dropping back to help pull a break up to the back of the field.

from the rule book (for crits):

3D3. The following are alternative methods for handling lapped riders in criteriums (i.e. riders who have been caught by the lead rider(s) in the race). The method chosen by the organizer with the Chief Referee must be clearly explained to the riders prior to the start of the race.
(a) A rider who falls so far behind as to be considered out of contention may be removed from the race by the Chief Referee.
(b) Alternatively, lapped riders may be permitted to remain in the race and all will finish on the same lap as the leaders. At the finish, these riders will be placed according to the
number of the laps they are down and then their position in the finish.
3D4. Riders on different laps may work with each other except that no rider may drop back to assist a rider who has broken away from the field [disqualification for accepting such assistance].