"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - I need stiffer wheels

Every time I sprint in my "race" wheels, I'm reminded of just how whippy they are.

They are Mike Garcia specials:

Front rim: Nimble spider (28H)
Front hub: speedcific
Front spokes: DT revo

Rear rim: Velocity aerohead (28H)
Rear hub: DT Swiss 240
Rear spokes: DT revo

Total weight without skewers - ~1450g

I lost a race yesterday by 0.04 seconds and the wheels were whipping all over the place at the end. They aren't out of true.

I need stiffer wheels that are comparably light. I'm not especially concerned about them being aero or carbon. Any recs?

*Cough*ksyriums*cough*

*cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*

*cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*

The problem ain't the power ... the problem is putting the power down.


Phatman --> I assume you mean ES? Got any experience in winding them up?

*cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*

*cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

Before you blow some money on new wheels, check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.

*cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

Before you blow some money on new wheels, check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.


Thanks ... I'll take a look at the tension and bearings.

And for the record, I had one of my better throws and fell just short of pulling a "Barlevav."

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/files/2008/06/rrc_harlem1sm.jpg

If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.

FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

There, that's better.

Mac

FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

There, that's better.

Mac

So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all. :rolleyes:

A stiffer wheel comes from:

More spokes
Thicker spokes
Stiffer rim
Higher spoke bracing angle (i.e. wider flange spacing, spoke heads in)
Stiffer hub

I feel I'm forgetting something on my list, someone help me out.

Mac

lacing pattern(s)

i don't know about "thicker spokes", as i'm sure there's some pretty bad thick spokes, but bladed spokes help

So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all. :rolleyes:

OK :rolleyes:, on the off chance that your wheelbuilder totally forgot to tighten your spokes at all, then yes, increasing spoke tension will stiffen your wheel.

BUT, if your spokes are tensioned anywhere near properly - that is, they aren't so loose that they're going into "negative tension" (compression), then HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL. Increasing your spoke tension from say 80kg to 100kg to 180kg will do nothing to stiffen the wheel. Nothing. It will increase your chances of cracking the rim near the spoke hole though.

Mac

One thing that makes for stiff wheels is deep rims. Your rims are 19mm. Stiff wheels use at least 30mm rims. That is mild. 40-60mm is considered average for racing.

lacing pattern(s)

i don't know about "thicker spokes", as i'm sure there's some pretty bad thick spokes, but bladed spokes help

Thicker spokes = larger cross sectional area = lower stress = less strain (elongation) = stiffer. Assuming same applied load

Mac

One thing that makes for stiff wheels is deep rims. Your rims are 19mm. Stiff wheels use at least 30mm rims. That is mild. 40-60mm is considered average for racing.

Not always true. My 32 hole open pros are stiff as hell.

*cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

Before you blow some money on new wheels, check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.


If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg


FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

There, that's better.

Mac

+ infinity


So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Come on, seriously? There is no need for an attitude especially when you are clearly wrong.

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

First question is what's your budget?

All things flow from there.

I found those nobiums to be flexy too.

If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals. plenty of us "mere mortals" weigh a lot more than most pros and some of us, judging by the cav is god thread, can put out more power than the best of them. I doubt many heavy pro sprinters are on uber-light wheels anyway.

On the other hand while a wheel flexing may be unpleasant how slow is it really as long as you're not fighting to control the bike? During the end of your sprint you ideally shouldn't be putting anywhere near maximum force on your pedals anyway. You'll likely get more power in a lower gear spinning faster and your bike will flex less too.

Intervals even if we pretend they won't make you .04s stronger will help you ignore the flex and will help you judge what gear to sprint in better.

Still if your dt revs are annoying you and you can afford it why not get something that will be both more pleasant to ride on and more durable.

Under $1K. Should be do-able for alloy and that weight.

When it's flat I just race my op's.

Still if your dt revs are annoying you and you can afford it why not get something that will be both more pleasant to ride on and more durable.

Thanks.
I didn't say they weren't pleasent or durable. In fact, they're both those things and light to boot. They're one of the reasons I was sprinting for the win out of a group of 5 instead of as a field. However, I'm not happy with 2nd.

Well you're complaining about them whipping around so clearly they aren't all that pleasant to race on. Give yourself some credit, it was your legs not moderately light non-aero wheels that got and kept you in the break.

OK ladies ... I still need stiffer, yet moderately light wheels. Any ideas?

After technique, tire pressure (and tire selection) will make a difference with regards to traction etc, pressure more than wheels, especially when it comes to "tires skipping around". To me it sounds like slightly better technique would give you the most return for the buck. Stiffer rims really help, same with wide flanges, as mentioned above.

Having slightly less pressure would help keep your tires down, but, honestly, you'll have some tire movement regardless. Check out some slo-mo replays of Petacchi and Co.

Your wheels are about as light as my race wheels, and they're pretty light. Why lighter? Lighter gets you a slightly better jump, but overall I'd aim for more aero, esp in the rims. 19mm is not aero at all, and you'll pick up mph if you get a taller rimmed wheel, say 58mm+. They use less spokes because they're stronger/stiffer rims. I figure my aero wheels are worth up 4-6 mph at my best, 3-4 mph right now.

cdr

+1 to everything Sac02 is saying.

If the OP wants stiffer wheels, a simple solution would be to swap those noodle Revo's out for straight 14 guage spokes. Revolutions are not known for making stiff wheels.

Flange spacing is important, as is number of spokes and thickness. Rim depth has little to do with lateral stiffness of a wheel. Spoke tension, even less so.

Edit: Ok I'm wrong about rim depth. Deeper usually does mean stiffer.

To address the actual question posed: Be patient on Ebay and score a set of Fulcrum Racing Zeros for under $1K. Or go slightly heavier (1500ish) and get a set of Racing Ones for $700-800. Both are stiff as heck.

Not always true. My 32 hole open pros are stiff as hell.

Not as stiff as CXP-33s would be with the same config. A stiffer rim makes a stiffer wheel.


if your spokes are tensioned anywhere near properly - that is, they aren't so loose that they're going into "negative tension" (compression), then HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

Truth


+If the OP wants stiffer wheels, a simple solution would be to swap those noodle Revo's out for straight 14 guage spokes. Revolutions are not known for making stiff wheels.

I came here to suggest this... I'd say 2.0/1.8/2.0 upfront, leave the revs on the NDS rear, and put some 2.0/1.8/2.0 on the DS. Takes about 30 minutes per side. You'll be done before So You Think You Can Dance? is over.

One thing that makes for stiff wheels is deep rims. Your rims are 19mm. Stiff wheels use at least 30mm rims. That is mild. 40-60mm is considered average for racing.

This isn't necessarily true in all cases.

I've been trying to decide between Zipp 1080's and 808 Clydesdales. The 1080 is a deeper rim (108mm vs the 82mm 808), but the 808 Clyde has 24 spokes in front vs. the 1080's 16. The guys at Zipp assure me that the 808 Clyde is a much stiffer wheel. It has a max rider weight of 275. The standard 808 is about the same stiffness-wise as the 1080.

So it looks like a deeper rim might make a slight difference, but more (or bigger) spokes seem to be the real key.

OK :rolleyes:, on the off chance that your wheelbuilder totally forgot to tighten your spokes at all, then yes, increasing spoke tension will stiffen your wheel.

BUT, if your spokes are tensioned anywhere near properly - that is, they aren't so loose that they're going into "negative tension" (compression), then HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL. Increasing your spoke tension from say 80kg to 100kg to 180kg will do nothing to stiffen the wheel. Nothing. It will increase your chances of cracking the rim near the spoke hole though.

Mac

True... I guess the situation i was getting at with my spoke tension comment was on the off chance that spokes had loosened or were not pre-tensioned there might be an issue. Either way, I kinda said it in a rude way, and I apologize for that.

OK ... I've got a plan. In fact, it's kinda like looking for a hotel or restaurant through one of those travel guides while on vacation. After all, my life is like one big freakin' vacation.

1. swap out the spokes on the existing set with beefier ones --> $
2. swap out the spokes and the rims to something taller --> $$
3. swap out the spokes and the rims to something taller and carbon --> $$$
4. buy all new alloy wheels purposefully designed to be stiffer and lighter (ES's or R0's or R1's) -->$$$
5. buy all new carbon wheels purposefully designed to be stiffer and lighter (I've had some good suggestions offline) -->$$$$

6. get kicked in the ass by my wife for spending more money on biking -->priceless

You can probably recoup some of the cost of new wheels by selling your old ones.

OK ... I've got a plan. In fact, it's kinda like looking for a hotel or restaurant through one of those travel guides while on vacation. After all, my life is like one big freakin' vacation.

1. swap out the spokes on the existing set with beefier ones --> $
2. swap out the spokes and the rims to something taller --> $$
3. swap out the spokes and the rims to something taller and carbon --> $$$
4. buy all new alloy wheels purposefully designed to be stiffer and lighter (ES's or R0's or R1's) -->$$$
5. buy all new carbon wheels purposefully designed to be stiffer and lighter (I've had some good suggestions offline) -->$$$$

6. get kicked in the ass by my wife for spending more money on biking -->priceless

#4. Custom build. Way under $1000 for a great set of wheels.

FWIW, out of all of the wheels I have ridden I have found the Campy G3 wheels the stiffest. Stiffer than my deep dish carbon wheels. I've never had a quality, custom built set so I won't go there.

#4. Custom build. Way under $1000 for a great set of wheels.

My current wheels were custom (Mike Garcia). I'm regretting not telling him to use beefier spokes (although that's a relatively easy one to fix).

Not sure what weight restrictions you're putting on here, but I've found my Soul 4.0's to be plenty stiff. I'm no heavy weight though...

I weigh about 150 lbs and put out around 1220 w for 5 sec (or 1k for 15sec), if you want to measure up to yourself for stiffness.

If you're looking for carbon, I can't recommend anything.

However, your best bets seem to be either swapping spokes, or buying a new set of wheels and selling your current set. Those will be the the cheapest options. The mavics aren't really all that aero...

It's the revs. They have their applications but I generally do not apply them to driveside. I have had ok luck with them on the front.

In general I agree with WR recommendation for some comps.

personally, I don't get really worked up about wheel stiffness. If the wheel flexes enough to rub on the brake pads then it becomes an issue. (of course you can always open up the rear QR)

If its not rubbing the brakes then I figure its stiff enough.

I bet you can get good deals on Mavic R-Sys right about now...

I bet you can get good deals on Mavic R-Sys right about now...

Smart*****!!

Funny, but there are several sets for sale up there right now. Just waiting for some unsuspecting sucka.

Thanks for all your suggestions/posts.