Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Strongest 36h Mavic Rim

I'm 6'7" and 375lbs. I used to play basketball competitively and goofed around racing mountain bikes back in the day following the NORBA circuit for a couple of races each year. However, as a large frame cyclist I was just never competitive. It didn't bother me, Tinker Juarez and Ned Overand couldn't dunk.

I'm more overweight now than the body weight of the average cyclist. I have a very different definition of what a Clydesdale is than just the metric of just being over 200lbs. I find that mark kind of funny. At my old playing weight, and I was a stick, I was over 200lbs. I feel like I'm a Clydesdale now, but I certainly wasn't then.

I want to build up a 36h wheelset for my road bike. I may end up using a 48h rear hub, and only go 36h on the front wheel.

My question is what is the absolute strongest Mavic rim that is available (or was available) in 36h. This conversation should start with rims that were strong enough for heavy loaded touring or tandems. I weigh more than many tandem couples.

Yes it has to be a Mavic rim.

It would be the A719 rim, but you will have to use 700x28 or larger tires for these rims..

The A719 come in 32, 36 and 40 hole versions.. If you needed a 48 hole rear you would need the older T520 Mavic rim which is very similar to the A719 in weight..

You may want to look at prices at peter white cycles for pricing..

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp

Welcome, mtnbke.

Woo! A forward to add to the Clyde basketball team.

I would go with the 40/48h if possible. I have 40h Velocity Dyad wheels, ST spokes and a Hugi hub. These wheels were built for a tandem and after 4,000 miles have given me no issues at 330#.

Good luck and keep us posted on the build!

We have another tall biker (Maximus) who is in the midst of building a rear wheel as well.

It would be the A719 rim, but you will have to use 700x28 or larger tires for these rims...


This is not true, they are 19mm wide and can run 700*23's quite easily. They are the same width as my Velocity's Deep V's. I have a set of the A119, same width 19mm, and have run 23's with no issues. Now, I am more comfortable using 28's which is what I have been running for some time on them, but they can use 23's if you wanted.

The A719 rim is 24.6mm wide, not 19mm like the standard road rims..

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB=%272118-36%27

Welcome, mtnbke.

Woo! A forward to add to the Clyde basketball team.

Played a little at the three, mostly a four.

Silly little people always think I'm a five when we play pick up.

I always say I'm no more a natural center because I'm taller than you, than you are a natural point guard because you're shorter than everyone else. The little people never seem to find that funny.

Welcome, mtnbke.

Woo! A forward to add to the Clyde basketball team.

I would go with the 40/48h if possible. I have 40h Velocity Dyad wheels, ST spokes and a Hugi hub. These wheels were built for a tandem and after 4,000 miles have given me no issues at 330#.

Good luck and keep us posted on the build!

We have another tall biker (Maximus) who is in the midst of building a rear wheel as well.

I recently had a 48 spoke Dyad built up and its been failing on us every single ride. Since its been built up its been out like five times, and back to the wheelbuilder all five times. Its failing with just me on it, not even both on the tandem.

As for the Mavic question it has to be a Mavic rim. I'm looking into a Chukker or maybe a B43 for the tandem now.

Is there a vintage or old out of stock rim that I might be able to find NOS that Mavic made that would work other than the T520 or A719?

I'm looking for the most bombproof Mavic rim ever in 36, 40, and 48 drill. Thoughts?

I recently had a 48 spoke Dyad built up and its been failing on us every single ride. Since its been built up its been out like five times, and back to the wheelbuilder all five times. Its failing with just me on it, not even both on the tandem.

As for the Mavic question it has to be a Mavic rim. I'm looking into a Chukker or maybe a B43 for the tandem now.

Is there a vintage or old out of stock rim that I might be able to find NOS that Mavic made that would work other than the T520 or A719?

I'm looking for the most bombproof Mavic rim ever in 36, 40, and 48 drill. Thoughts?

I'm not sure what is wrong with the A719 or T520?? You limit yourself to Mavic and then are looking for something older that will be extremely difficult to find, even if it ever existed in the first place.

The A719 rim is 24.6mm wide, not 19mm like the standard road rims..

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB=%272118-36%27

He's looking at the inner width, not the outer width. The generally recommended tire width range is around 1.5 to 2.5 times the inner width.

He's looking at the inner width, not the outer width. The generally recommended tire width range is around 1.5 to 2.5 times the inner width.

Yep, I was.

I'm not sure what is wrong with the A719 or T520?? You limit yourself to Mavic and then are looking for something older that will be extremely difficult to find, even if it ever existed in the first place.

Yep, and yep. You build your bikes up how you want, I'll build mine how I want.

I'm currently in the middle of building up a 'tout Mavic' indexing 8 speed Mavic SSC group. Mavic derailluers, Mavic hubs, Mavic Cassette, Mavic crank, Mavic bottom bracket, Mavic seatpost, Mavic stem, Mavic bars, Mavic headset, Mavic tape, Mavic computer, Mavic pedals, the whole shebang.

LeMond won a tour on an 'All Mavic' bike. Sean Kelly raced on Mavic SSC. Mavic put together the first full groupe. Everybody else has Shimonoculture and a credit card can get you a Campy gruppo vintage or modern in a hurry. Putting together a 'tout Mavic' isn't something you can just buy off the shelf, or even just acquire quickly. Its just another fun way to try and enjoy cycling as a hobby, and appreciate the history of cycling.

Nothing is wrong with the current product Mavic A719 or the old T520.

I'm not concerned with how difficult it will be to find, or whether even you'd choose those rims instead of current product, or even if I can find the vintage/classic rims. I just simply want to know what rims Mavic has ever made that are classified as absolutely bombproof rims in 36, 40, and 48 drill in case I stumble upon some.

I had Mavic T rims on our tandem. Terrible results! Tried a few other box rims, Sun, and a couple others. Only thing that has held uner our over 400 lb team is Velocity Deep V's in a 48 spoke wheel.:thumb:

I can't get 1 year out of Mavic rims on my single at 230 lbs. No Mavic fer me!:D

Yep, and yep. You build your bikes up how you want, I'll build mine how I want.

I'm currently in the middle of building up a 'tout Mavic' indexing 8 speed Mavic SSC group. Mavic derailluers, Mavic hubs, Mavic Cassette, Mavic crank, Mavic bottom bracket, Mavic seatpost, Mavic stem, Mavic bars, Mavic headset, Mavic tape, Mavic computer, Mavic pedals, the whole shebang.

LeMond won a tour on an 'All Mavic' bike. Sean Kelly raced on Mavic SSC. Mavic put together the first full groupe. Everybody else has Shimonoculture and a credit card can get you a Campy gruppo vintage or modern in a hurry. Putting together a 'tout Mavic' isn't something you can just buy off the shelf, or even just acquire quickly. Its just another fun way to try and enjoy cycling as a hobby, and appreciate the history of cycling.

One of my many bikes is a Sean Kelly KAS Team bike... Vitus Aluminum with Full SSC Group, I even have the SSC Tubulars on Mavic 501 hubs..

As far as wheels go you may want to send an email to Peter White and see what he may recommend.. I have a few friends who had wheels built by them with good results..

hi,
my LBS reccomended the RS20 for my wheels after I broke a few spokes on my mavric wheels,I weigh around 240.
And I must say the RS20 are really strong wheels for the 300 bucks I paid.
Doug

http://media.rei.com/media/rr/658a8754-ed49-4538-b124-8be755447a81.jpg

A quick question: Would you be willing to look at or consider 29'er rims? That opens the field to a few more choices, albeit modern/current ones.

You might want to try calling a tandem vendor and see what they have available in 700c rims.. They may have rims available that are not built up yet.. Someone like Santana Tandems

http://www.santanatandem.com/

Nothing is wrong with the current product Mavic A719 or the old T520.

I'm not concerned with how difficult it will be to find, or whether even you'd choose those rims instead of current product, or even if I can find the vintage/classic rims. I just simply want to know what rims Mavic has ever made that are classified as absolutely bombproof rims in 36, 40, and 48 drill in case I stumble upon some.

Those Mavics are actually considered the most bombproof of the line by pro wheel builders. Too early for me to vouch for them but I just got a 40 hole tandem wheel for the rear of a bent I'm putting together: T520, laced 4 cross. Minimum size tire recommended by the manufacturer is 28c.

Like Mr. Beanz, I'm a Velocity Deep V fan. I haven't had good luck with Mavics- namely the Ksyriums- both the Elite and SLs. That is funny considering those wheels have a max rider weight of 250 lbs and I'm only 210 lbs. However, at your size, I would consider what Socal rider said about contacting Santana Tandems. One of the wheelsets they'll suggest you getting are 48 hole Velocity Deep Vs. My LBS told me that they are bulletproof and most of his road tandem customers are using those. When the owner first saw mine, he said, "You bought tandem wheels?" With the exception of my Felt and Beanz's Lemond, I've only seen Velocity Deep Vs on tandems and fixed gears.

Like Mr. Beanz, I'm a Velocity Deep V fan. I haven't had good luck with Mavics- namely the Ksyriums- both the Elite and SLs. That is funny considering those wheels have a max rider weight of 250 lbs and I'm only 210 lbs. However, at your size, I would consider what Socal rider said about contacting Santana Tandems. One of the wheelsets they'll suggest you getting are 48 hole Velocity Deep Vs. My LBS told me that they are bulletproof and most of his road tandem customers are using those. When the owner first saw mine, he said, "You bought tandem wheels?" With the exception of my Felt and Beanz's Lemond, I've only seen Velocity Deep Vs on tandems and fixed gears.

For our tandem we had a custom wheel built on a Hope 140mm Cassette Hub w/Arai drum brake. The rim was a Velocity Dyad and I let the shop talk me into double butted spokes instead of straight 14g. The Dyad is supposed to be a bombproof rim. However, the wheel failed within the first five miles. It was retensioned, complete sections of the wheel had changed tension, and retrued. Its failed another five times, it has never lasted five miles without going into the brakes. I think something went awry with the wheel build, as the past two failures have happened with only me on the bike.

They are going to rebuild the wheel using a Velocity Chukker. Its like a Deep-V, but a Deep-V is only for very narrow tires as its only 19mm wide. A Chukker actually has a deeper section rim and is wider. Unfortunately the B43 will not have a braking surface or I'd get that.

However, the Mavic inquiry is for an 'all Mavic' bike, so other rim recommendations don't help.

Sadly I might have to wait 'till next season to build up the rear wheel, as I don't think a 36h Mavic rim is going to hold my weight (375lbs/170kilos).

I would love to get a set of the SSC rims as they perfectly match (obviously) the SSC kit I'm building the bike around.

I just picked up the SSC brake levers this week. Can't wait to get 'em in the mail. Found 'em in Belgium.

http://i.ebayimg.com/13/!BTYg(vQB2k~$(KGrHgoOKjoEjlLmRkbZBKIIz0H+,!~~_12.JPG

Anybody remember any historic 36h, 40h, or 48h Mavic rim being considered "bombproof"?

Definitely stick with the straight gauge spokes on your new build.. If you have issues again, may be time to find a new builder..

Yup, that's the builder's failure. I paid a high end local shop to build a wheel for me. A velocity Deep V, 32 spoke. It didn't make it thru the first 40 mile ride. I took it back and the moron said it's supposed to be that way. I took it apart, put replaced with new spokes, tooka chance and and built it myself.

It now has over 19,000 miles on it with one itsy bitsy minor truing at mile 18000!:thumb:

I just can't see paying someone to build another wheel. I read Sheldon Brown's site on wheelbuilding. I check out wheels that local builders have built, maybe one out of 5 meet the standards that Sheldon mentions. :eek:

For our tandem we had a custom wheel built on a Hope 140mm Cassette Hub w/Arai drum brake. The rim was a Velocity Dyad and I let the shop talk me into double butted spokes instead of straight 14g. The Dyad is supposed to be a bombproof rim. However, the wheel failed within the first five miles. It was retensioned, complete sections of the wheel had changed tension, and retrued. Its failed another five times, it has never lasted five miles without going into the brakes. I think something went awry with the wheel build, as the past two failures have happened with only me on the bike.

They are going to rebuild the wheel using a Velocity Chukker. Its like a Deep-V, but a Deep-V is only for very narrow tires as its only 19mm wide. A Chukker actually has a deeper section rim and is wider. Unfortunately the B43 will not have a braking surface or I'd get that.

However, the Mavic inquiry is for an 'all Mavic' bike, so other rim recommendations don't help.

Sadly I might have to wait 'till next season to build up the rear wheel, as I don't think a 36h Mavic rim is going to hold my weight (375lbs/170kilos).

I would love to get a set of the SSC rims as they perfectly match (obviously) the SSC kit I'm building the bike around.

I just picked up the SSC brake levers this week. Can't wait to get 'em in the mail. Found 'em in Belgium.

http://i.ebayimg.com/13/!BTYg(vQB2k~$(KGrHgoOKjoEjlLmRkbZBKIIz0H+,!~~_12.JPG

Anybody remember any historic 36h, 40h, or 48h Mavic rim being considered "bombproof"?

Thinking about the lack of braking surface, some touring bikes are now being built with road disc brakes. It makes sense a touring bike often has a heavy load and is ridden in all kinds of weather. So maybe it's a rim intended for those bikes.

Really though it could also be that the drawing on the web site is a quick and dirty, AFAICT there are no photographs of the rim online, so until there are we can not be sure.

Thinking about the lack of braking surface, some touring bikes are now being built with road disc brakes. It makes sense a touring bike often has a heavy load and is ridden in all kinds of weather. So maybe it's a rim intended for those bikes.

With all the problems mtnbke has with finding a strong enough wheel, I'm surprised that he's gone with a hub braking system (drum/rim combo), and he should definitely stay clear of a full hub mount (disc) setup. There's no reason to add more strain to the spokes with braking forces.

With all the problems mtnbke has with finding a strong enough wheel, I'm surprised that he's gone with a hub braking system (drum/rim combo), and he should definitely stay clear of a full hub mount (disc) setup. There's no reason to add more strain to the spokes with braking forces.

I'm just saying that it's possible that particular rim is designed for disc brakes, not saying that he should go that way. I've seen a few touring bikes with road discs and it looks like a nice way to go. If my lotto group at work wins tonight, I'll let you know in a few weeks how well they work :D

Thinking about the lack of braking surface, some touring bikes are now being built with road disc brakes. It makes sense a touring bike often has a heavy load and is ridden in all kinds of weather. So maybe it's a rim intended for those bikes.

Really though it could also be that the drawing on the web site is a quick and dirty, AFAICT there are no photographs of the rim online, so until there are we can not be sure.

Got the email from Velocity. Unlike the Deep-V which they can sell to the fixie crowd by not machining the paint from the braking surface they thought they would go one better with the B43. Even though its the strongest non-commercial rim going, they thought they would completely ignore the Clydedale/tandem/triple/quad/quint market and make sure it had no braking surface.

I've blown multiple tires on my single overheating the rims on mountain descents. I've been terrified on my tandem hitting 60mph while having the ARAI drum brake MAXXED out (with baby in trailer).

I think disc brakes on a tandem are suicidal. Then again with my (our weight) I've 'tested' brakes more so than the next person. Any brake on a tandem that stops working when it overheats shouldn't be on the tandem.

Back to Mavic rims:

Anybody know anything about Mavic Module [fill in blank] rims?

With all the problems mtnbke has with finding a strong enough wheel, I'm surprised that he's gone with a hub braking system (drum/rim combo), and he should definitely stay clear of a full hub mount (disc) setup. There's no reason to add more strain to the spokes with braking forces.

I think you're confusing me with another poster.

I would NEVER ever ever put disc brakes on any bike I own. My tandem has Scott/Pederson self-energizing cantilevers and an Arai drum (drag) brake. I think disc brakes on a tandem are suicidal.

My mountain bikes use cantilevers (not V-Brakes) and my road single uses calipers.

Being a difficult load to stop and weighing more than most tandem teams I've developed some informed opinions about brakes. I've learned that a "real" brake lever instead of STI levers makes all the difference in the world.

STI levers completely compromise braking. Maybe you don't notice it if you are a hundred and nothing, but when you're my size confident braking is something you obsess over.

On my road single I pull the STI levers and run "real" levers. I use Kelly Take-Offs to bring a downtube shifter up next to the lever so I can have some semblance of integrated from the drops shifting. I'll probably try Paul's Thumbies soon. I hate bar-ends because they make the top tube cockpit smaller. When you have a 100cm inseam you don't want things sticking out from your bars.

The funny part is even though I'm probably the heaviest cyclist in the world, I'm a HUGE weight weenie.

I love the fact that "real" brake levers, Kelly Take-Offs, and downtube shifters save weight on my bike.

Believe it or not, even when you are 375lbs, a light bike still feels light, and a heavy bike still feels heavy. No kidding. I didn't really expect it either.

The other weird thing. Believe it or not I've got a bike with Xero Lite paired spoke wheels. The wheels are a little out of true, but are holding up with 24 spokes much much better than the 48 spoke Dyad. I took that bike out for a 28 mile the other day. I can't go 5 miles on the tandem (with only my on it) without having to stop because of a wheel failure (rim completely in the brakes).

If you ever have a chance to grab a set of Xero Lite wheels that were spec'd on an Giant OCR1 don't hesitate. If they work for me at 375lbs, they'll work wonderfully for anyone.

Now about bombproof Mavic rims that only have 36 spokes...

Thoughts?

The front wheel will be built from my NOS Mavic 501 36h hub. A thing of beauty. I'd love to use vintage SSC rims, to match the components, but I suspect they wouldn't support my weight, and I definitely can't afford to throw $100 at an experimental rim.

Anyone have any working theories on whether Phil Wood (rolled threads), Wheelsmith, or other spokes are 'best' for building extremely strong wheels for outlier riders?

mtnbke,

I'm a little confused. If I remember correctly, the Mavic groupo wasn't reknowned for durability or braking performance. Have you ridden these componencts before? Forgive if my recollection is incorrect. I never road the full SSC groupo but do remember the brakes being more or less identical to modolo's that weren't the greatest of stoppers. In particular I remember the brake levers flexing like Reynolds aluminum wrap. If you are as concerned with stopping as you've claimed, this choice alone really causes me to question whether you'll be at all happy with your project.

On the subjects of rims and braking: You've stated that you've blown tubes due to over-heating of rim brakes and that you've maxed out you drag brake and were still hitting speeds you weren't comfortable with, then go on to say that you view disk brakes as suicidal. How can this be? Wouldn't disks provide more reliable braking than the drum brake and therefor less rim heating if you needed to augment with rim brakes? I ask this honestly, as I was thinking of putting disks on a Commutourer that I'm contemplating and which would be carrying weights equal to you once I load it up.

LeMond won a tour on an 'All Mavic' bike. Sean Kelly raced on Mavic SSC. Mavic put together the first full groupe. Everybody else has Shimonoculture and a credit card can get you a Campy gruppo vintage or modern in a hurry. Putting together a 'tout Mavic' isn't something you can just buy off the shelf, or even just acquire quickly. Its just another fun way to try and enjoy cycling as a hobby, and appreciate the history of cycling.


If you have enough money, you can assemble outdated Mavic equipment VERY quickly - just offer about triple the going price for each component. You're just being a snob. If you wanted something *truly* custom, you could probably start from scratch with CNC'd shifters, an AVR based computer, and derailleurs driven by linear actuators.

I buy Shimano because it's cheap, ubiquitous, and offers good quality for the price.

BTW- Raleigh sold the first complete groups decades before Mavic sold their first rim. Almost every part on the bike was built in the same factory complex!



I ask this honestly, as I was thinking of putting disks on a Commutourer that I'm contemplating and which would be carrying weights equal to you once I load it up.

Considering that discs are used to stop 800 pounds of overloaded Harley + 250 pounds of rider + 200 pounds of rider's girlfriend on a regular basis, I'm wondering what sort of brakes he's using. Hydraulic discs offer more force than cable-driven discs, but, unlike DOT brake fluid or mineral oil, cables can't boil. (Also, some hydraulic brakes basically have two settings: "On" and "Fly over the handlebars". This might be less of an issue on a loaded touring bike, where "on" *is* "fly over the handlebars" for any other bike.

If you're worried about overloading a disc brake, the Avid Code line has four pistons (better than some automotive brakes) and huge 203mm rotors which should be quite difficult to overheat. I'd still use a traditional drum-based drag brake on a tandem, but these things could probably stop a full-blown motorcycle.

And I bet you could find a CNC shop that would refit supermoto brakes to a bicycle. Anything designed to go from 90 to 20 and do it again in thirty seconds will stop ANYONE.

mtnbke,

I'm a little confused. If I remember correctly, the Mavic groupo wasn't reknowned for durability or braking performance. Have you ridden these componencts before? Forgive if my recollection is incorrect. I never road the full SSC groupo but do remember the brakes being more or less identical to modolo's that weren't the greatest of stoppers. In particular I remember the brake levers flexing like Reynolds aluminum wrap. If you are as concerned with stopping as you've claimed, this choice alone really causes me to question whether you'll be at all happy with your project.

On the subjects of rims and braking: You've stated that you've blown tubes due to over-heating of rim brakes and that you've maxed out you drag brake and were still hitting speeds you weren't comfortable with, then go on to say that you view disk brakes as suicidal. How can this be? Wouldn't disks provide more reliable braking than the drum brake and therefor less rim heating if you needed to augment with rim brakes? I ask this honestly, as I was thinking of putting disks on a Commutourer that I'm contemplating and which would be carrying weights equal to you once I load it up.

Unlike other component manufacturers (Campy, Shimano, Suntour) Mavic didn't have a "second best way". They offered no other price point groupe. It was pro level SSC or somebody else's components.

On the contrary, the Mavic SSC stuff was bombproof. Everything is completely modular, and the components can be taken apart with circlips. Back in the day you could get every last little part. The problem was that the stuff didn't wear out, or break. That and it was the most expensive component group by far. Pretty much only pro tour teams bought the stuff.

There is no difference between a Mavic 875 mountain rear derailleur and the Mavic 840 or 841 short and medium cage road derailleurs, other than the cage length. In fact you can swap the cages out (completley modular remember) and convert the 840 into an 841. The 875 had different graphics, but is the same nonetheless. Case in point there is no difference between the 501 road hubs and the 531 Mountain bike hubs. Everything is exactly the same (hub shell, bearings, internal lock ring and steel lock nut) the only variance is the rear axle width (135mm vs. 130mm/126mm). The Mavic 631 starfish crank has always been considered one of the stiffest cranksets around (however, only goes up to 180mm). The crank design is brilliant with the big and small ring being seperated by a spacer. The crankset converts to a triple with a 'tripleizer', and you can convert any of the front derailleurs (860,862) to the 870 triple cage by just popping a circlip and swapping.

I'm not using the vintage SSC calipers. I don't like vintage & classic single pivot brakes. I don't like riding with a single pivot brake pad rubbing on the rim. I picked up a set of current product Mavic SSC double pivot calipers. If you check out the reviews you'll find that many people who have ridden Record Exoskeleton, DA, and Zero-Gravity calipers prefer the SSCs. I already know I'm going to love the calipers.

As for the vintage SSC levers I just received my set of NOS levers. These have been the most expensive part of my 'tout Mavic' build by far. I found 'em on eBay in Belgium. As a rule a 'real' brake lever is like the difference between night and day, compared to modern STI stuff when it comes to braking. You can be sure that if I have any problems with the SSC levers that they will come right off the bike. I don't know which ones you rode, maybe the 440SSC brakeset?

Here is a pic of my SSC levers (below).

On the tandem, pulling a kiddie trailer we've gone right past 55mph with the drag brake maxed out on scary steep descents (Wisconsin Horrible Hilly route). We had no idea the route was going to be that 'hilly', seriously. Maybe its because we're from Colorado, and we are mountain snobs, I dunno.

I've definitely had more than my fair share of tube blowouts from the rims getting blisteringly hot. Its dangerous and downright scary.

However, make no mistake. Not matter how 'hot' your rims get on a single, even with a blown out tube (which is dangerous in its own right) the brakes don't just vanish no matter how hot they get.

With disc brakes, when they overheat they stop working effectively, that is they fade. Just like on a car.

Disc brakes are de rigeur now, but they are heavier, dangerous, and place considerable additional tension on wheelsets (already compromised with tandem or Clydesdale riders). I will never, ever own a bike with disc brakes.

I consider it outright negligence that tandem manufacturers equip tandems with disc brakes and without an Arai drag brake. If one were to set up a disc brake on a bike as an auxillary brake you'd discover the 'failure' point of the brake in a hurry. No disc brake made is rated for drag brake use, which tells you everything you need to know.

Drag brakes are very heavy on a tandem, but they are very necessary for anything but the most lightweight team. A drag brake is a brake you set, and typically even pedal against (no point in just sitting there after all).

Mark my words, its a matter of time before someone gets really hurt or killed on a disc only bike (either a tandem or a heavy Clydesdale single).

For more read:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tandem-brakes.html

The thing to remember is that a rim brake is a disc brake, and that disc brakes get their braking power as a function of the size of the rotor. You're not going to get a bigger rotor than your 700c rim. That's a 622mm rotor.

Yes, the rim absorbs heat directly, and can compromise the tube and tire quickly with a heavy load, however a disc brake is a 'temporary' brake under load, although it does not transfer heat to the tube/tire. A drag brake accomplishes the same benefits as a disc brake but in a much safer and even continual use fashion. There is a reason that drag brakes are made out of cast steel. They are simply heat sinks. Aluminum wouldn't do nearly as good of a job at absorbing the heat that gets created from converting momentum.

Considering this thread is about building the 'strongest' Mavic wheel possible, it is necessary to point out that disc brake wheels compromise wheel strength. Wheels are built in dynamic tension. There is a compromise of weight versus strength with every wheel. More so even than the frame of a bike, the wheelset is the bikes soul. Reducing rotational weight is so much more significant than reducing static weight in terms of how a bike performs (this from the guy who weighs more than anyone on these forums). Optimal disc brake wheelsets, for a given rider, are heavier than optimal rim brake wheelsets. A rim brake wheelset can be built 'just as strong' using lighter double butted spokes for a given application. The forces subjected by a disc brake to a wheelset require stronger/heavier spokes for a given application.

Why would you want heavier brakes, heavier wheels, and a 'temporary' brake when you need it most? Like many things in cycling disc brakes have ingrained themselves into the marketplace, but 'better' they are not.

Most cyclists don't even remember how effective a high end pair of cantilevers were. Let alone something like a Mafac tandem brakeset, which will crush rims and bend frames they are so powerful (yet so lightweight).

I don't anticipate I'll have any trouble with the SSC brake levers. The current product SSC calipers are some of best road brakes going. However, thanks for sharing your experience.

I'd love to be able to use the actual SSC groupe rim (not every other Mavic SSC branded rim). However, I've never heard anyone accuse it of building into a strongish wheel.

Any other candidates other than the A719 or T520 for a super strong 36h Mavic wheel?

If you have enough money, you can assemble outdated Mavic equipment VERY quickly - just offer about triple the going price for each component. You're just being a snob. If you wanted something *truly* custom, you could probably start from scratch with CNC'd shifters, an AVR based computer, and derailleurs driven by linear actuators.

I buy Shimano because it's cheap, ubiquitous, and offers good quality for the price.

BTW- Raleigh sold the first complete groups decades before Mavic sold their first rim. Almost every part on the bike was built in the same factory complex!

Well you're wrong on several counts.

First of all 8 speed stuff is considered absolutely bombproof compared to Shimano 9 and 10 speed, or Campy 8, 9, 10, or 11. Mavic SSC 8 speed uses the same standards as Shimano 8 speed. Many people who like to do International unsupported touring select 8 speed stuff, and wouldn't swap it for anything more modern if you paid 'em. There is no comparison in terms of longevity, strength, durability, and with Mavic (assuming you can source the bits) repairability.

As a rule the 9 and 10 speed chains are considerably weaker than 8 speed. The chainrings and cogs are considerably less strong, and wear faster, and are noticeably less stiff for bigger stronger riders (or with heavy loads and low gearing). Think about it, 9 and 10 speed is only possible by introducing more dish the wheels (making wheels less strong in the process), making the cogs narrower, the chainrings narrower, and the shifting indexing more precise and over shorter throws. The fact is that 9, 10, and Campy 11 is much more finicky than 8 speed.

You can call it 'outdated', to me Mavic 8-speed is the pinnacle of bicycling componentry.

The funny thing is that even though Mavic stuff was otherworldly expensive (as compared to Dura Ace or Campy Record) its not now. Go figure. That doesn't change the fact that this stuff was produced in very limited quantities, and is getting harder and harder to source, but its an outright bargain compared to how obnoxiously expensive Campy Super Record 11 is, or a Dura Ace group. I personally think that Di2 is just snobbish. Its late to the party that Mavic Zap and Mechtronic threw years ago, and is (overall) heavier than a non-electronic DA group (and more expensive).

I think owning a BMW 3 series is snobbish. Its not that great of a car, certainly nothing like the 5 series. Its for people that are obsessed with brand identity. However, owning an Alfa, that's just a choice to own a CAR.

If you consider my attempting to cobble together a Mavic group 'bicycle snobbery' so be it. I hate the Shimonoculture that has pervaded cycling for too long. Back in the day there were four legitimate high end pro level mountain bike component groups: Mavic, Campagnolo, Suntour, and Shimano. For the last twenty years there has only, really, been Shimano.

Sure Wal-Mart is cheaper, and has lots of stuff. It doesn't mean Wal-Mart is 'better' for the economy, and that anyone who refuses to shop there is just being a 'snob'.

I personally think its obnoxious to buy a new bike in this era. Why buy a new Sora, Tiagra, or even Ultegra bike when you could be riding on a world class bike with classic Tour level componentry? It makes no sense to me. I'd rather have good than new.

As for where your whole indictment of 'custom' came from, that's not mine to own.

I don't remember ever claiming I wanted to put together something that nobody else had ever ridden. In fact I specifically made mention of the fact that Mavic SSC was spec'd on many pro teams bikes, that LeMond won a tour on it (cleanly), and that Sean Kelly used to ride the kit as well. That's a bunch of other people other than me...

Also you might want to brush up on your bicycle education...calling the components on a Raleigh bicycle a "group" is pretty disingenuous. An old Raleigh is a house brand bike. I think that a component group is a very clear and simple concept, and that you, were simply being contrarian. Mavic sold their first rims in the thirties (albeit years after Raleigh started making complete bikes), but the first 'complete' groupe is Mavic, and its in the 70s. Calling what hangs on a house brand bike a "group" is just goofy.



Considering that discs are used to stop 800 pounds of overloaded Harley + 250 pounds of rider + 200 pounds of rider's girlfriend on a regular basis, I'm wondering what sort of brakes he's using. Hydraulic discs offer more force than cable-driven discs, but, unlike DOT brake fluid or mineral oil, cables can't boil. (Also, some hydraulic brakes basically have two settings: "On" and "Fly over the handlebars". This might be less of an issue on a loaded touring bike, where "on" *is* "fly over the handlebars" for any other bike.

If you're worried about overloading a disc brake, the Avid Code line has four pistons (better than some automotive brakes) and huge 203mm rotors which should be quite difficult to overheat. I'd still use a traditional drum-based drag brake on a tandem, but these things could probably stop a full-blown motorcycle.

And I bet you could find a CNC shop that would refit supermoto brakes to a bicycle. Anything designed to go from 90 to 20 and do it again in thirty seconds will stop ANYONE.

In every iteration of motorsport there is a very fine boundary between getting your brakes warm enough to work effectively, and overheating them to the point of failure. A bicycle (a fixie excepted) unlike the motorized examples offered here can not 'engine brake', and no motorcycle or motorized vehicle will rival a bicycle in terms of efficiency (the contact patch of bike tires on the pavement is the size of a quarter). Motorcycles and cars offer more wind resistance, and have more tire friction, and parasitic drag (vehicular disc brakes being a primary example). Failure due to overheating brakes is commonplace in racing, and on mountain descents in day to day traffic (hence the need for runaway ramps along I70 in Colorado).

Disc brake failures are commonplace in cycling. Perhaps you don't hear about them, but if you were to investigate the tandem mountain bike scene you'd discover, very quickly, how common complete brake failure is. Again, no disc brake (including tandem disc brakes) are rated for continual use. If you're a Clydesdale, on a fully loaded unsupported touring bike you're pushing over 300lbs, easily. I'd think long and hard about equipping such a bike with discs. That's an accident waiting to happen on anything but the shortest descents.

I've overheated and blown tubes just coming off Colorado National Monument (less than a mile descent). If I would have had disc brakes on those rides, I'd be dead (watch American Flyers again).

A bicycle is a performance machine, constrained by the narrow wattages the human engine can exert. Everything on a bicycle is a delicate balance of weight, strength, and efficacy.

Drag brakes work, and very well. However, I sure wouldn't want one on my single. Disc brakes are fine I guess, but I sure wouldn't want them on any mountain bike, road bike, or tandem. Too heavy and too dangerous. I'll take the lighter and safer calipers and cantilevers any day (no V brakes for me).

Now instead of being difficult do you have anything to contribute to the conversation of what Mavic rim is the strongest?