Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - I need your advice on gearing...

I'm considering a wide range double (a la pass hunter/ alpine gearing... whatever you want to call it) for a new build, and I'm wondering what gearing combos you might recommend for moderately hilly terrain?

I have used both half step plus granny and mountain bike gearing on my touring bikes in the past, but would like to try something different. Would a 28/50 plus a 12-28 9spd cluster be limiting on a long ride (400k+)? should I consider a 48 instead? I know this would be fine for at least a century, but Im not all that familiar with rides much longer than this.... yet :)

FWIW, i consider myself a fairly strong rider, but i dont really know in ralation to others... I usually ride alone. I commute 35 miles/ day and can keep up with all but the fastest weekend warriors on the local 20 mile loop on the weekends, and this is on my on my 35# touring bike with 26 inch wheels. My longest ride was about 160 miles fixed, riding 48/17, but this was in England, on moderately flat terrain, with rolling hills...

Im interested in setting the crankset up with a short BB, so that the outer ring would accommodate the entire range of the cluster, with the granny for long or steep climbs... Am I going down the wrong track here? Would this approach greatly limit my randonneuring success?

Thanks in advance :thumb:

Sounds like you have it all well thought out and it makes perfect sense for your abilities and the kind of rides you do. For riding fixed on moderately hilly terrain I use a 42 x 15 with 700-C wheels, so fairly similar gear inches.

Anyway, yes, looks go to me; go for it!

Rick / OCRR

i run a 30/46 or 32/46 double.
love it.
most of my riding is in the 'big' ring.
climbing, etc. in the small ring.
i can run this on a 107 or 103 bb spindle.
rear is campy 13-29 or 13-26. 10 spd.

thanks for the replies,

Bmike, sounds pretty similar... do you find that you are cruising towards the bottom or top end of your cluster in back on longer rides? (ie, would you consider a change from a 46 to a 48/50? should I consider a 46/48 instead of the 50?) I know this is highly subjective, just trying to get a feel for others preferences...

I guess I'm worried that my gearing will be a bit too steep as i get fatigued. At about 55/60 bucks per chainring, I only want to buy once if possible...

thanks again

thanks for the replies,

Bmike, sounds pretty similar... do you find that you are cruising towards the bottom or top end of your cluster in back on longer rides? (ie, would you consider a change from a 46 to a 48/50? should I consider a 46/48 instead of the 50?) I know this is highly subjective, just trying to get a feel for others preferences...

I guess I'm worried that my gearing will be a bit too steep as i get fatigued. At about 55/60 bucks per chainring, I only want to buy once if possible...

thanks again

i've got several sets... but i'm really happy in the 46.
cruising while rested i'm in the lower 1/3. (higher gears)
cruising at then end of a 200k or fleche i'm in the middle of the cassette.
i also cross chain and climb in the 46/29. (gasp) - but i'm trying to ride myself of that habit.
my fixed experience at a century was 42/16.

thats very helpful, thanks...

That TA crankset you use is pretty nice. Would you recommend it? I am also considering the white industries double, with the variable bolt circle (benefit- smaller granny potential, problem- unique chainrings...) The other option is a TA cyclotourist 50.4 bcd, if i can find one.

the cheap route is a sugino triple set up as a 110/74 double. But this is a fancy build for my new frame, so i want to keep it classy... :)

any other thoughts would be most appreciated!

Would a 28/50 plus a 12-28 9spd cluster be limiting on a long ride .... ?

Personally (and gearing is a very personal thing) I can't imagine running a 28/50 -- too big a jump. Because I like to keep front spacing as tight as possible, I lean towards triples for wide-range gearing. A ten-tooth jump is as much as I want on a bike meant for lighter use -- like randonnees. For me that means a 30-40-50 up front.

Here's my rando gearing page (http://www.veloweb.ca/randopages/randoratios.html).

FWIW, i consider myself a fairly strong rider, but i dont really know in ralation to others."strength" in itself isn't a contibuting factor to deciding a give gear range or gear setup.

The pertinent statistic to consider is your expected "loaded bike" power-to-weight ratio. My experience, (and strength with load) suggests that 28x28 low gear is fine for just about all situations. Typically, 8 and 9 speed gear lusters have cancelled any need for more ratios, even across a wide gear range.

However, an extremely heavy rider, or someone with a very poor power-to-weight ratio would benefit from a triple, because the center ring would serve as additional lower, ratios that would be used very often. You probably don't need that, you'll just run the 50t sprocket up to the 24t or 28t cog........

Wide gear ratios are for diverse riding terrains and loads.

Triple crank gear ratios are required for poor power-to-weight ratios, and constant heavy loads.

thats very helpful, thanks...

That TA crankset you use is pretty nice. Would you recommend it?

the cheap route is a sugino triple set up as a 110/74 double. But this is a fancy build for my new frame, so i want to keep it classy... :)

Hey there, go easy on the Sugino triple- I consider it classy. Okay, maybe not as much as a TA.
I use the 700XD with only middle and inner rings. 44/28 with a wide cassette 11-34. It's very nice gearing for my Kogswell.

95% of the time I am in the 44CR and only drop to the 28 if hauling gear. This turns the whole shebang into a wide 9-spd for the vast majority of my riding.

Great input, thank you all.

Greaterbrown identified what I'm suggesting... 95% of the time, I'd be in the big chainring, shifting only the back so effectively a 9 speed. Id have the granny for bailout gears, and when climbing mountains.

Cranium, this bike will only ever see my own weight plus a saddlebag... I have another bike with a Mtn. triple for loaded riding. I'm a lightweight guy (125-135), with a BMI of 17 or less, so my power to weight ratio is fairly good. Thanks for your input.

Randochap, I appreciate your suggestion, I recognize the utility of a triple for maximum spread of gearing with minimal spacing. I've used half step plus granny in the past to this end, and liked it, but want to try something new... I guess what im really proposing is a 9 speed system, with a bailout ring. I am collecting mountain passes, and I like the idea of riding up one side and down the other. I guess I was worried that 50 X 12-28 or so might be limiting on longer rides....

If you had to pick one chainring and a 9 speeed casette for a 400K or 600K, what tooth count would you use?

Also, does anyone know of a front derailleur that can handle the 20-22 tooth jump im proposing?
I suppose I could just do the hand shift trick and forgo the FD. :)

thanks again for the help.

I recently switched from a standard double (53/39) crank to a compact 48/36 setup. I'm using the same 12 - 27 10spd cluster for both. I find myself doing most of my flat ground cuising in the big ring with the 4th largest rear cog (19t). If I were using a 50 for my big ring instead of the 48, I think it would force me to cross chain more than I like and I'd end up right in between the big and small ring a lot, especially later in a long brevet. So, I'd recommend going with the 48 instead of a 50. What you give up on the high end is never going to keep you from finishing a brevet.

If you had to pick one chainring and a 9 speeed casette for a 400K or 600K, what tooth count would you use?

.

42t with 13-29 campy 10 spd. if in the northeast... like the westfield series or the boston series.
44t if not so climby.

i was always cross chaining and double shifting with a normal 34-50 compact double...

Yeah, this is confirming what I thought... that 50 might be too steep.

Also, does anyone know of a front derailleur that can handle the 20-22 tooth jump im proposing?
I suppose I could just do the hand shift trick and forgo the FD. :)


You'll not find a RD that will handle much more than 16T diff.
A hand shift could be workable, but you'll probably still want some type of chain guide or you could easily lose the chain during a bumpy descent.

When I worked out my gearing I decided on the lowest possible high gear I'd put up with and then backed up the gearing from there. i.e.: 100 gear inches is my top end- beyond that I spin or coast. So that's a 44/11 for my 650B bike. From there I picked a CR 16T less than that and put on the widest range cassette available. Thus, 44/28 11-34

Yeah, this is confirming what I thought... that 50 might be too steep.

sheldon's gear calculator is your friend. (http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/)
i worked on my high end... and then worked backwards.

at a certain point you fight the air more than your weight... when i'm exponentially fighting air for miniscule gains i'd rather spin comfortably and start to recover than fight. you get more bang for your buck working the climbs... so i figured out where i'd want to top out @ 100 rpm and again at 110 rpm... made a call on the gearing (46/13) and then backed out from there.




46 30
13 94.7 61.8

14 87.9 57.3

15 82.1 53.5

16 76.9 50.2

17 72.4 47.2

19 64.8 42.3

21 58.6 38.2

23 53.5 34.9

26 47.3 30.9

29 42.4 27.7

This crank & chainring will increase your options: http://www.sram.com/en/XX/products/


Coming in at 694 grams (BB30), the Sram XX Crank delivers amazing performance and durability with no penalties in weight. The first MTB crank specifically designed for 2x10 uses some of the world’s most advanced material science. The oversized chainrings are CNC machined 7075 Aluminum blanks—2mm thicker than the competition. Unparalleled stiffness is delivered by an increased Bolt Circle Diameter (BCD) and a two-piece insert-molded carbon composite construction. The XX Crank geometry provides a narrow 156mm Q factor, efficient chainline, and beveled crank arms to maximize clearance. It’s pure science in action.

WEIGHT: 694g (BB30),
754g (GXP w/ BB)
CHAINLINE: 49.5
CHAINRING MATERIAL: AL-7075-T651
CHAINRING COLOR: Tungsten gray and silver
CHAINRING BOLTS: AL-7075-T6
CRANK-ARM MATERIALS: Integrated carbon composite/aluminum spider construction
COMPATIBILITY CHAIN: Optimized for SRAM PC 1090 or PC 1090R
CRANK-ARM LENGTH OPTIONS: 170mm and 175mm
CHAINRING OPTIONS: 26-39 (120/80 BCD), 28-42 (120/80 BCD), 30-45 (120/80 BCD)
BOTTOM BRACKET OPTIONS: GXP, PressFit GXP, BB30, and PressFit 30


These 10 speed cassettes are new;


The revolutionary machined design of the Sram XX Cassette uses the same grueling manufacturing techniques that produced the PowerDome road cassette. With X-Dome, eight of the cogs are CNC-machined together out of a single block of billet steel, creating an incredibly lightweight, precise, and strong cassette. It’s a process that takes nine hours per cassette! The aluminum large cog can be replaced as needed. You have never seen a cassette that looks like this. The open design aids in mud clearance, giving you cleaner shifting performance and longer component life.

WEIGHT: 208g (11-36),
185g (11-32)
TECHNOLOGIES: X-Glide shifting, X-Dome design
SPEEDS: 10
COG MATERIAL: CNC-lathed 4130 chromoly steel
LARGE COG MATERIAL: AL-7075-T6
LOCK-RING MATERIAL: AL-7075-T6
OPTIONS: Replaceable large cog
GEARING OPTIONS: 11-32 and 11-36

I ride a Trek Madone and am working on long distance rides (doubles, brevets). The hills kill me and I am working on gearing options. I am not very mechanical so I rely on the LBS (southern California). My problem/question is that the LBS's I have tried want to push me back to a standard Shimano 10-speed solution that offers limited flexibility on the gearing. When I ask of 9-speed options or non-Shimano solutions I am told that it will not work with my bike. Is it me or the bike or is it the limited solution set of a particular bike shop?

Looks like I'm ending up with a Shimano Ultegra triple crank and using a 11-32 IRD cassette with a XT long cage derailler. Every step in the process is an experiment with unknown results. Should I be looking for a more experienced mechanic?

Thanks in advance,

Bill

This crank & chainring will increase your options: http://www.sram.com/en/XX/products/

Funny you mention that. I have a double that came standard on my Cannondale mtb - 44/29 with an 11-34 9 speed cassette. I'm actually thinking of duplicating that gearing more or less on an upcoming build for a sportive/rando bike. The 46/30 chainset that bmike uses is pretty ideal I think.

Funny you mention that. I have a double that came standard on my Cannondale mtb - 44/29 with an 11-34 9 speed cassette. I'm actually thinking of duplicating that gearing more or less on an upcoming build for a sportive/rando bike. The 46/30 chainset that bmike uses is pretty ideal I think.

thanks. here is a pic... set up to 34/50, but you get the idea.
its nice to be able to tune the rings to the ride...

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_0jkA5M3PGcY/RSLpehWRABI/AAAAAAAAAAk/NQM06bqpwq4/s800/IMG_1914.JPG

This crank & chainring will increase your options: http://www.sram.com/en/XX/products/

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yeah, but for that price... Id rather have modern TA or the white industries VBC. The bike is a classic lugged vintage english lightweight. With all due respects to SRAM, that thing is way too fugly for my new bike :)

besides the cassette alone is 380 dollars. Uh, no thanks....

With all due respects to SRAM, that thing is way too fugly for my new bike :) besides the cassette alone is 380 dollars. Uh, no thanks....

I was gonna say that, but figured "to each his own".
Now you've got me interested- any pics of the new build?

yeah, but for that price... Id rather have modern TA or the white industries VBC. The bike is a classic lugged vintage english lightweight. With all due respects to SRAM, that thing is way too fugly for my new bike :)

besides the cassette alone is 380 dollars. Uh, no thanks....

and it uses 120 and 80 bcd...
and the q is pretty wide. you'll do much better with a ta double that can run on a 103 or 107 traditional bb...

I was gonna say that, but figured "to each his own".
Now you've got me interested- any pics of the new build?

not yet, I just bought the frame recently. Its a 1970's Chas Roberts frame, 531, repainted blood red by brian bayliss, windowpane cutouts outlined in gold wtih classic white roberts transfers under clear. Ill need to cold set it from 120 to 128mm, unless I decide to go 5 speed with half step + granny up front. Not likely though, since I dont want to have to find quality 5 speed blocks every 5K or so miles... hence this thread!

im going to be writing my PhD dissertation and collecting parts for the next few months, but Ill ressurect this thread periodically as it comes together...

Hey bmike, does the TA carmina have the option of a silver spider? That crankset is very sharp....

OK, now I'm just being ridiculous :)

Hey bmike, does the TA carmina have the option of a silver spider?

http://www.velo-orange.com/pro5viscr.html

44/28 with a wide cassette 11-34.

What RD are you using?

What RD are you using?

Ultegra long cage with Shim. 9-spd DT shifters. Nothin' fancy, but it works right.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27976837@N00/sets/72157604620197554/

http://www.velo-orange.com/pro5viscr.html

pro v is a great crank... but it is shown as a triple. wonder why he has it called out in the description as a double? wrong photography?

and that bb seems really long.
with the carmina i can run it with a 103 phil or a 107.? shimano.

Hey bmike, does the TA carmina have the option of a silver spider? That crankset is very sharp....

OK, now I'm just being ridiculous :)

yes, polished silver for doubles and singles... (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/carmina.asp)

pro v is a great crank... but it is shown as a triple. wonder why he has it called out in the description as a double? wrong photography?

and that bb seems really long.
with the carmina i can run it with a 103 phil or a 107.? shimano.

For most of the VO inventory, Chris takes nice high res photos, but not so with this one. I'm guessing it's a TA stock photo. You're right about the spindle length though. 122mm :eek:

pro v is a great crank... but it is shown as a triple. wonder why he has it called out in the description as a double? wrong photography?

the nice thing about the pro5 vis is that it can be run in basically any config you want... like wide range double, triple or even quad (yes, 4 chainrings, Ive seen it on a tandem) just by replacing the six bolts and spacers that stack the chainrings together....

One of its main benefits, due to the small bcd (50mm) is being able to use a small granny, (like 24-28) while still using a larger main CR, (like 46-50) without needing to go to a triple setup (this is why chris mentions it as a double in the copy of that ad). On most other cranksets with a larger bcd, you will be limited on the bottom end to maybe 30 or 32, unless you repurpose a triple crank to use, for example, the 74mm for your granny and the 110 inside spot for your main ring with single CR bolts and no outside chainring. This results in a less than perfect chainline though. Plus loss of elegance points to the handful that care...

ok, now im sounding like a bike geek, ill stop...

Oh, and the 235 gets you just the arms, no CR's included. For that price, Id prefer the carmina or white industries I think...
white industries crankset im thinking about:
http://www.whiteind.com/cranks/roadcranks.html

for example, the 74mm for your granny and the 110 inside spot for your main ring with single CR bolts and no outside chainring. This results in a less than perfect chainline though. Plus loss of elegance points to the handful that care...

ok, now im sounding like a bike geek, ill stop...

Oh, and the 235 gets you just the arms, no CR's included. For that price, Id prefer the carmina or white industries I think...
white industries crankset im thinking about:
http://www.whiteind.com/cranks/roadcranks.html

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/2432139960_37b3601d32.jpg?v=0

IMO this looks cleaner than that White Ind. crank. I love White stuff and I love the practicality of that crank, but not the look. The carmina OTOH is a beaut.

"Less than perfect" chainline? Using middle position is dead on.