Touring - Ti vs Al vs Steel need help thanks

Not exactly new to touring, or bikes in general, but need to replace on old Kabuki Diamond tour that finally bit the dust. Served me well, I will miss it. I am out of the loop, just have not paid much attention to the advances in technology.
What I am looking for is what do you think.
I am not going to say price is a consideration, because it is not. I am prepared to pay for a top of the line bike. Just not sure what that is.
Never ridden a Ti frame, just recently bought my first Al bike, and am quite happy with it , but it is not a touring bike. Its my commuter and fun to ride, Cannondale BBU.
My priorities would be weight, strength, and durability, maybe not in that order. What do you think is a good bike to carry 60 lbs of gear and a 145lb rider, to tour say the blue ridge parkway.

Thank you for your insight.


SMP

a somafab.com soma double cross with campy centaur shifting and the most expensive of the mavic ksyrium wheels with an isis style bb and some drop bars.

a somafab.com soma double cross with campy centaur shifting and the most expensive of the mavic ksyrium wheels with an isis style bb and some drop bars.
Do you ride one?

Do you ride one?

oh. no. that's just one of the things i was thinking about. but i stupidly forgot about rivendell. just get a custom rivendell with some good campy shifting, an isis bb and those ksyrium wheels. rivendell is supposed to be the best tourer there is.

Not exactly new to touring, or bikes in general, but need to replace on old Kabuki Diamond tour that finally bit the dust. Served me well, I will miss it. I am out of the loop, just have not paid much attention to the advances in technology.
What I am looking for is what do you think.
I am not going to say price is a consideration, because it is not. I am prepared to pay for a top of the line bike. Just not sure what that is.
Never ridden a Ti frame, just recently bought my first Al bike, and am quite happy with it , but it is not a touring bike. Its my commuter and fun to ride, Cannondale BBU.
My priorities would be weight, strength, and durability, maybe not in that order. What do you think is a good bike to carry 60 lbs of gear and a 145lb rider, to tour say the blue ridge parkway.

Thank you for your insight.


SMP
Hi Oknups, I very much like the Trek 520, has served me extreamly well including the Blue Ridge Parkway on several occasions, will carry as much weight as you can peddle. Another great tourer is the Bob Beckman bikes (Sakkit)Sa-Keet. Just as long as it's steel.....

I bought a Litespeed Blue Ridge last summer. It came with cross tires which I replaced with continentals. Since it has a carbon fork, no front rack, but there is plenty of room for a rear rack and fenders. I had 35mm tires on it until recently, went to 25 for the summer, but even the 35's had room left over.

I really like the feel of Ti - it was the first bike I test road that felt natural, all the others, both Alum & Steel felt awkward (I had only ridden mtb up to that point), the Blue Ridge felt smooth and comfortable.

I would suggest checking out Ti if money is no object. I picked up mine at a local lbs that was clearing out the '03's last year for over $600 below list.

Mark

Hi,
budget is the limiting factor here. Several companies can whip up a custom ti tourer for you...at a price. Is the budget around $1k, $2k, or more? Waterford is an easy choice around 2K. They make a few different tourers.

Bruce Gordon

Thorn eXp

Rivendell Atlantis

Thorn Nomad

Waterford

Co-Motion

Bilenky

Oswald

Bob Brown

Bob Beckman

Tom Bruni

Check 'em all out...

i've heard nothing but good things about bruce Gordon
http://www.bikeutopia.com/pages/Bruce_Gordon.htm
i don't own one, but when i bought my touring bike i did a lot of research and they were about at the top of my list. i ended up going with a local builder. money was a factor for me, and local was a bit less expensive, i was more comforatable geting measured at a local shop, and also liked the fact that i supported a local bike shop. so maybe a local builder may be the way to go for you.
as far as material goes. i went with steel. the guy who built my bike also builds Ti frames, and maybe aluminum. he suggested steel for touring. his reasoning was if your in the middle of nowhere and something bad happens you can go into about any car shop and probably find someone to atleast do a temp. weld job on your frame.
i kinda feel that if you need your frame welded while on tour you've probably got bigger probs then a guy with an acetelyn(sp?) torch can fix, but it made atleast a little sense.
also if you get a frame thats not steel, and not custom built make sure it has the braze ons for your racks.

heres the guy who built mine, he's better known for racing.
http://www.hhracinggroup.com/

It comes down to what you feel is more comfortable. I would test ride all three frames.

Personally I don't notice the difference, but I've never rode Ti.

I'm very happy with my Cannondale T2000, its Al.

Sheldon brown has a great article (www.sheldonbrown.com) about frame materials. His take, and I think he's correct, is that tires and saddle actually have a greater impact on ride quality than frame material. It really is a mistake to focus exculsively on material. A well engineered frame can be made out of any of the three materials.

If money is no object, I'd go with Ti. Some will argue it isn't the best choice for touring because it isn't easily repaired, but this seems like a meager argument to me because a well-made Ti frame is virtually indestructable. Steel is very easy to repair, so it's probably better than Aluminum for long distance touring in the middle of nowhere. However, well engineered aluminum frames can be very durable as well.

Since it sounds like price is no object, I'd get a custom made Ti frame. Most major cities have custom builders who'll put together a quality Ti touring bike, and it won't cost you much more than a production Ti touring bike. The Litespeed Blue Ridge it considered by many to be the best production Ti touring bike and it costs $3500. A custom Ti bike will cost about the same price with comparable components, and a custom steel frame will run about $2500.

Most on this board swear by steel, but I like aluminum better. I love both of my cannondale touring bikes! I encourage anyone to ride several bikes. Tires/wheels/geometry play a much larger roll in how a bike performs than what frame material it is made from . . .

Most on this board swear by steel, but I like aluminum better. I love both of my cannondale touring bikes! I encourage anyone to ride several bikes. Tires/wheels/geometry play a much larger roll in how a bike performs than what frame material it is made from . . .

Exactly. My bike frame is aluminum and I'm perfectly happy with it. I've had both steel and Al bikes. Still does feel a bit more lively than aluminum, but the difference isn't nearly as great as some assert. I've noticed that my aluminum bike seems to climb much more easily. Aluminum frames generally weigh about a pound less than comparable steel. That might not seem like much, but when it's the frame itself, the difference is noticeable.

Exactly. My bike frame is aluminum and I'm perfectly happy with it. I've had both steel and Al bikes. Still does feel a bit more lively than aluminum, but the difference isn't nearly as great as some assert. I've noticed that my aluminum bike seems to climb much more easily. Aluminum frames generally weigh about a pound less than comparable steel. That might not seem like much, but when it's the frame itself, the difference is noticeable.
Ok, I like the Al bike I have now, and am going to try a Cannondale 2000. Question: There seem to be plenty of "independent" frame builders that work with Ti or steel, but yet I have not found one that will make a custom Al frame. Why?

You read the Sheldon Brown site now read these sites:

http://www.henryjames.com/faq.html
http://www.kirkframeworks.com/Philosophy.htm
http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/frames1.html
http://rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_pureopinions.html
http://rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_framemanufacture.html
http://rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_framematerials.html

Then there's this information:

From the book: Hayduk, Douglas. Bicycle Metallurgy for the Cyclist. Boulder, Colorado 80302: Douglas Hayduk, 640 Marine Street, 1987.
Frames Materials
Chome-moly steel is the best material for bicycle frames, because it’s the safest and most durable (has a long fatigue life), is easiest to repair, and is more workable in the sense that in the right hands, it can be made more beautiful and unique. In the wrong hands, it’s still safer and more durable. Also, its strength and stiffness allow it to be used in diameters which are not just aesthetically pleasing, but also allow for good tire clearance, fender clearance, and so on. If the tube has to be fat to be strong, it encroaches on the tire too much; steel doesn’t. Don’t fear rusting steel—there are a number of sprays you can coat the insides of the tubes with to absolutely prevent rust; so don’t worry.
Aluminum is light and cheap and always large-diameter because, like a presto log or a block of pink popcorn, it doesn’t stand up to repeated flexing. Aluminum has a short fatigue life, so the smarter makers eliminate fatigue-inducing flex by using huge diameter tubes. There are some fine aluminum frames out there—notably, the ones made by Charlie Cunningham and Gary Klein. They at least, have some flesh and blood and brains behind them. But today’s cheap-labor imitations have nothing to offer beyond their function, and if you can warm up to one of them, you can likely warm up to anything. Consider yourself lucky?

NEXT:

VeloNews dated 6/10/03, page 42.

ALUMINUM “As anyone familiar with beer cans can tell you, al is softer and less stiff than steel. Al is easy to draw and form into shapes, easy to machine and relatively easy to weld. Its density is about a third of steel and half of ti, so it is not hard to build a light bike with it. It will oxidize, and should be painted, powdered coated or anodized to prevent corrosion, but it does not rust away rapidly. Al has downsides too. Its tensile strength, yield strength and elongation are far less than those of high strength steel and ti alloys. Al is more vulnerable in a crash. Al has no fatigue limit, a property steel possesses, often expressed as a % of its tensile strength. Below this limit, the material can be cycled indefinitely without breaking. This means that al can be less predictable than steel as to when it will fail after long use. Back to our beer can: compare a can of beer to a metal can of olives and it’s apparent that he al container has much less stiffness than a steel can of similar thickness and diameter. Yet many al bikes feel stiff. Why? It’s because al’s density is so low; tubes can be made large and thick for stiffness and light weight. Al can be alloyed with other elements to enhance its properties. Scandium for instance is an element that can help make a very strong al alloy. “
TITANIUM is a wonderful material with enviable properties, but it still isn’t as stiff as steel, so you have to use it in larger diameters. So Ti chain stays have two choices: crowd the tire or crowd the chain rings. For the same reason, Ti fork blades are used rarely, and only in large-cross sections, which look terrible on road bikes, and only barely acceptable on any bike. Titanium is not as tough as steel is, so cracks in it tend to propagate faster, leading to earlier failure. And then, it’s harder to repair.
Titanium has been sold as a near magical material, but its biggest deal is that it won’t rust. And that's no big deal!
CARBON FIBER is a most remarkable material that is not living up to its promise. It’s light, yes. It’s strong when it’s new. But carbon fiber is sort of like a heavyweight boxer with a great right cross and left hook, who is also a hemophiliac and can’t take a punch. It loses its strength and so much of its safety when it gets chipped, knicked, weathered, and generally beat around as a bicycle gets beat around. Carbon fiber forks are famous, at least among manufacturers and distributors, for snapping instantly, and this in spite of the fact that it’s virtually impossible to buy an off-the-shelf high-end bike without a carbon fork. Whether you like the looks of a carbon fiber frame, is another issue altogether. Summary: Light, strong in the lab, but with a track record of sudden failures.

Ok, I like the Al bike I have now, and am going to try a Cannondale 2000. Question: There seem to be plenty of "independent" frame builders that work with Ti or steel, but yet I have not found one that will make a custom Al frame. Why?

Read my post with all the web sites and articles from a book and magazine. The custom guys do not want to build with AL because it will not last as long and thus tarnish their image. A lot of guys will dispute this but ask yourself this question: if a custom guy could build a AL frame for far less money both in labor and material than a steel and sell it for the same price as steel, then why don't they? Ask Richard Sachs that, or Grant at Rivendell. Because custom guys are into making bikes that will last a lifetime and probably several! Ever wonder why most if not all bike manufactures that make AL frame bikes only warranty their bikes for 5 years tops? While most steel frame and some carbon fiber frames you can find with lifetime warranties? Not that warranties is a judge of how good a frame is, but if Trek sells a steel or carbon frame with a lifetime warranty but their only going as far as 5 years on their AL frames, should set off warning bells. KHS has a 2 year warranty on their AL and life on their steel. Most companies only warranty their AL frames for only 1 year. Seems fishy to me. And if you have been reading this and other forums for as long as I have you see certain types of frames with more issues than others...ALUMINUM.

Read my post with all the web sites and articles from a book and magazine. The custom guys do not want to build with AL because it will not last as long and thus tarnish their image. A lot of guys will dispute this but ask yourself this question: if a custom guy could build a AL frame for far less money both in labor and material than a steel and sell it for the same price as steel, then why don't they? Ask Richard Sachs that, or Grant at Rivendell. Because custom guys are into making bikes that will last a lifetime and probably several! Ever wonder why most if not all bike manufactures that make AL frame bikes only warranty their bikes for 5 years tops? While most steel frame and some carbon fiber frames you can find with lifetime warranties? Not that warranties is a judge of how good a frame is, but if Trek sells a steel or carbon frame with a lifetime warranty but their only going as far as 5 years on their AL frames, should set off warning bells. KHS has a 2 year warranty on their AL and life on their steel. Most companies only warranty their AL frames for only 1 year. Seems fishy to me. And if you have been reading this and other forums for as long as I have you see certain types of frames with more issues than others...ALUMINUM.
Froze,
Thank you for the info, and insights. I have been leaning towards a steel frame, and I think what you said pushed me over the fence. Anybody own a Spectrum? Hand made up in PA.

Froze,
Thank you for the info, and insights. I have been leaning towards a steel frame, and I think what you said pushed me over the fence. Anybody own a Spectrum? Hand made up in PA.I thought that Spectrum frames were designed and final inspection done by Tom Kellogg but the frames are actually built at the Merlin factory. Is Kellogg building them himself, now?

I thought that Spectrum frames were designed and final inspection done by Tom Kellogg but the frames are actually built at the Merlin factory. Is Kellogg building them himself, now?
Just got off the phone with the man, and the impression I got concerning steel frames are that they are made there by him and partner, ti we did not talk about. I think ti are made by merlin, steel ones in house in PA.

Just got off the phone with the man, and the impression I got concerning steel frames are that they are made there by him and partner, ti we did not talk about. I think ti are made by merlin, steel ones in house in PA.Yeah, I was thinking Ti not Steel. I looked into getting a Spectrum in Ti but ended up going with a Serotta Legend Ti, instead.

froze,

I checked out the cites you listed. All except one are specific bike companies, so this seems a little biased to me. I know certain bike makers have an economic interest in promoting certain frame materials over others. Sheldon Brown isn't affiliated with any particular bike maker, so I think he gives a more impartial, no B.S. assessment.

Another reason few custom builders seldom build aluminum bikes is because the material doesn't lend itself to hand building. As you've mentioned, it's very rigid, so you can't bend it very much, though it can be welded by hand. My aluminum bike has a lifetime warranty on the frame. After about three years of riding, the fork broke, and Trek replaced the entire frame, no questions asked. I also no people who have been riding aluminum frames for ten years with no problems at all.

All this underlies what I've argued from the start: How a frame is engineered is just as important (possible more) than the specific material. Each frame material has it's advantages and disadvantages. Steel/Chromo is very strong and easy to work with, but it's heavy and can rust (though a quality frame with a good paint job will last several years). Aluminum is light and corrosion resistent, but comparatively weak, so you have to use more material and carefully engineer it. Titanium offers the best of both worlds: It's light weight, extremely durable, never corrodes, but it requires a special environment and machinery to be shaped and welded, so it's very expensive (it's actually a very common element).

A quality frame can be made from any of the three materials long as the builder understand and engineer the frame according to the physical properties of each element. In terms of "frame flex", we're talking about metal here, so frame flex is going to be negligible of the frame is engineered properly.

Another reason few custom builders seldom build aluminum bikes is because the material doesn't lend itself to hand building. As you've mentioned, it's very rigid, so you can't bend it very much, though it can be welded by hand. My aluminum bike has a lifetime warranty on the frame. After about three years of riding, the fork broke, and Trek replaced the entire frame, no questions asked. I also no people who have been riding aluminum frames for ten years with no problems at all.

All this underlies what I've argued from the start: How a frame is engineered is just as important (possible more) than the specific material. Each frame material has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Totally agree.
Custom makers can always repair a customer's steel bike but not an aluminum one- another big reason for them to avoid it. Bigger companies simply give you another frame. Something custom makers cannot afford to do.

Aluminum is -in the real world- just as durable as anything else.

Back to the original question- for a long-term touring bike I would go with Merlin or Litespeed. Ti is great and so is their warranty and craftsmanship. Custom sized if you wish.

AlanK

Alan: I'm not trying to start any wars, granted I believe (as you can tell) that for the dollar steel is the best material. Sheldon Brown, and I do respect the man, owns a bike shop, and he knows he has to sell the other materials if he is to stay in business; so no, there is some BS...but remember there is two sides to every piece of balony!!!! I still wonder why a custom frame builder who knows about different tubing materials and different ways of assembling it would still choose steel and lugs if (as you seem to think) not the best material. They can make a bike any way they want, but instead they choose a slower more labor intensive way to build a bike; when they could just tig weld their frames, sell them for same money as they do now with the lugs, make more bikes and save labor cost. So they may be bias for a good reason!!

If you watch this forum and others long enough as I have, you will see a higher frequency of AL damaged frames than any other material.

Todays steel bikes are lighter than you think, and even mine that was built in 84 in racing form weighed 20 pounds with no carbon fiber parts! If I used CF parts I could get the weigh down to the 18 to 19 pound range. Today you can find them all day long between 17 to 18 pound range; these weights rival TI!! And the newest steel from Reynolds, Columbus and Dedacciai make their steel with the same tensil strength as TI; and with these newest steels you can get a bike down to the 16 pound ranges!

My bike has over 140,000 miles on it, and ridden in rain, has no rust anywhere inside or out; it was treated by Trek with a zinc coating to prevent that. Today steel manufactures are either chroming (Italins) or nickle plating (America & Europe) steel bikes to prevent rust. Sheldon Brown (your favorite person) rides to work most of the time on a steel bike built in 1918!!! What kind of steel was that made of? GAS PIPE!!! and not rusted out either. Also if your very paranoid about the rust issue you can treat the inside of the tubing with FrameSaver and that will prevent any rust from happening.

I do like Titanium as a frame material, BUT to get a bike made using American TI is expensive. Sure you can get TI bike frames now for around $800 but they use Russian or Chinese TI and I've heard over the years that for some reason their metal is inferior to ours. I guess you get what you pay for.

But your right there is some advantages to certain materials over others. For example, if I was to race a bike and was racing in mountains, I would probably get a fat tubed AL frame due to it's stiffer frame with little flex so my power would be transmitted with very little loss to the rear wheel while hammering up climbs. But for long races I would use Carbon Fiber due to it's lighter weight maybe TI (both of these if I wasn't worried about crashing and paying the high cost of replacement). But if I was buying a bike to keep for a long time or for touring then steel with lugged construction would be my only choice...like what I have now.

AlanK


I do like Titanium as a frame material, BUT to get a bike made using American TI is expensive.

But if I was buying a bike to keep for a long time or for touring then steel with lugged construction would be my only choice...like what I have now.

Is an american ti frame as expensive as a custom steel frame you are advocating? Prices are comparable, which makes ti look like a bargain.

If I were buying a keeper for touring, ti would be my only choice. That's why I recommended Merlin or Litespeed. Morati makes an excellent ti bike but not sure if they have a touring version. I like their ti fork though, really good ride.

Is an american ti frame as expensive as a custom steel frame you are advocating? Prices are comparable, which makes ti look like a bargain.

If I were buying a keeper for touring, ti would be my only choice. That's why I recommended Merlin or Litespeed. Morati makes an excellent ti bike but not sure if they have a touring version. I like their ti fork though, really good ride.

You can find production Ti tourers for about the same price as a custom steel bike. In terms of value, Airborne is a great company. Many people disparage them because their frames are made in China, and wrongly assume this means lower quality, when in fact labor is just less expensive their. Over the last decade, Chinese schools have graduated large numbers of talented engineers, and and Airborne guarantees their bikes for life. Everything I've read about them in bike mags has been positive. In terms of their light touring model (Carpe' Diem), you can get one with Ultegra components for about $2600, Dura Ace comps for about $2800. This is about a grand less than comparable American production Ti bikes (Litespeed, etc.). Most custom made steel touring bikes will cost about $2400-2600, so in this sense the Carpe Diem is a great bargain, but it isn't custom, and the Carpe' Diem is for light touring, not fully loaded expedition touring.

If I were to buy a production Ti bike, I'd go with Airborne (www.airborne.net), simply b/c of value. American production Ti touring bikes will run you a minimum of about $3300, and you can get a custom made Ti touring bike for about $3500, so why the hell would you even bother with a production model? So overall (to answer your original question :o ), a Ti bike will cost about $1000 more than a comparably equipped (frame and components) steel bike. Bicycling, like just about every other aspect of American culture has become so saturated and over-commercialized, it's overwhelming.

You can find production Ti tourers for about the same price as a custom steel bike. In terms of value, Airborne is a great company. Many people disparage them because their frames are made in China, and wrongly assume this means lower quality, when in fact labor is just less expensive their. Over the last decade, Chinese schools have graduated large numbers of talented engineers, and and Airborne guarantees their bikes for life. Everything I've read about them in bike mags has been positive. In terms of their light touring model (Carpe' Diem), you can get one with Ultegra components for about $2600, Dura Ace comps for about $2800. This is about a grand less than comparable American production Ti bikes (Litespeed, etc.). Most custom made steel touring bikes will cost about $2400-2600, so in this sense the Carpe Diem is a great bargain, but it isn't custom, and the Carpe' Diem is for light touring, not fully loaded expedition touring.

If I were to buy a production Ti bike, I'd go with Airborne (www.airborne.net), simply b/c of value. American production Ti touring bikes will run you a minimum of about $3300, and you can get a custom made Ti touring bike for about $3500, so why the hell would you even bother with a production model? So overall (to answer your original question :o ), a Ti bike will cost about $1000 more than a comparably equipped (frame and components) steel bike. Bicycling, like just about every other aspect of American culture has become so saturated and over-commercialized, it's overwhelming.

Just got in from a short ride. Read this post. Drank a beer, made up my mind about what I am going to get in the way of a new bike (for loaded touring.)

Thank you all for information and opinions. Special thanks to froze, and AlanK.

To change the subject, how come there are so few components that are made in America, I can not think of any drive trains comps? Is the subject worth a new thread?

Just got in from a short ride. Read this post. Drank a beer, made up my mind about what I am going to get in the way of a new bike (for loaded touring.)

Thank you all for information and opinions. Special thanks to froze, and AlanK.

To change the subject, how come there are so few components that are made in America, I can not think of any drive trains comps? Is the subject worth a new thread?

I don't know for certain, but I would assume it's a cost issue, but this is just conjecture. Go ahead and start a thread - it can't hurt.

One thing I forgot to mention about production Ti bikes --- If you are patient and diligent, you can usually find them for about 20-30% below retail via on-line sources like ebay. Since thousandes are made every year, a few inevitably get lost in a warehouse for a year. No one will pay full retail for a model from last year or 2-3 years ago, even if it's never been used. For instance I've seen Litespeed Blue Ridge on ebay go for about $2600.

...
CARBON FIBER is a most remarkable material that is not living up to its promise. It’s light, yes. It’s strong when it’s new. But carbon fiber is sort of like a heavyweight boxer with a great right cross and left hook, who is also a hemophiliac and can’t take a punch. It loses its strength and so much of its safety when it gets chipped, knicked, weathered, and generally beat around as a bicycle gets beat around. Carbon fiber forks are famous, at least among manufacturers and distributors, for snapping instantly, and this in spite of the fact that it’s virtually impossible to buy an off-the-shelf high-end bike without a carbon fork. Whether you like the looks of a carbon fiber frame, is another issue altogether. Summary: Light, strong in the lab, but with a track record of sudden failures.


I appreciate the points made in this thread about frame materials. I have a quick observation, though I must hasten to add that I'm not an engineer. I'm an academic but not an engineer. I read the bit about frame materials, esp. the selected passage above, with interest. Whenever I read about carbon fibre's faults and potential flaws and failings, I think of boats.

When fibreglass boats came on the market there was an outcry from wooden boat afficianados. The resentment of 'plastic' or 'tupperware' (as the slurs have it) has diminished but it hasn't gone away. The common scientific complaint is that fibreglass is degraded by ultraviolet rays and by fatigue stress. Another complaint or accusation is that fibreglass will break suddenly rather than slowly or noticeably.

Interesting that similar complaints are now being raised against carbon fibre. I don't want to take sides, but I want to make the observation that IF C-F is really a 'boxer with a glass jaw'/hemophiliac, then wouldn't we be hearing about lawsuits and suchlike? What are the stats on injuries resulting from say stays or forks collapsing? I would expect a lot of stories about sprains, contusions, broken limbs, etc.