Living Car Free - What Premium Are You Willing To Pay?

What Premium Are You Willing To Pay?

There is a small grocery store a couple of blocks away from me. It has a meat department and a small bakery. It has vegetables and fruit too. It sells just about everything any grocery store would sell only with fewer brand choices. The second closest grocery is four and a quarter miles away. It is a large national chain store.

As a car free person the nearby store seems like a great convenience. My question is about prices. I have decided that supporting a local store is a good thing, but how much am I willing to support it? It must have a value. At what higher percentage price are you willing to pay to support your local store? My limit is somewhere between 10 and 20 percent.

I have not given up on my local store but I have decided to only use them for items that they price fairly. Any other time I need something quickly they will be considered a convenience store, not as a competitive grocery store.

Pineapples are one of my favorite snacks. At the neighborhood store they charge $1.39 per pound for a six and a half pound pineapple. That equals $9.04. At the larger store they can be had for $3.49-3.94 for the whole pineapple.

Once in a while I like Pringles potato chips. At the neighborhood store they regularly cost $2.25 per can. They were on sale for only $1.56 two weeks ago. I thought that was a good deal until I saw them for $1.50 at the larger chain store.

A one pound bag of brown rice costs $1.85 at the small store and costs only $1.38 at the large store. If I were to pay a 20% premium on that rice to keep it within the limits of my local store subsidy it would only cost $1.66.

The store brand of a can of baked beans from the small store costs 85 cents and the store brand baked beans at the large store costs 67 cents. The subsidized 20% higher price would equal 80 cents.

Lastly, the small store charges $1.99 per pound for sweet potatoes. The large store charges $1.13 each. A big sweet potato can weigh close to two pounds.

The only thing the local grocery store sells that costs the same or slightly less is raw ground beef.

What are you willing to spend to support a local store instead of shopping at a national chain store? Even if these stores were side by side I would support the local store if its prices were just a little bit higher than their competition. As it is in my situation I can't justify spending so much more at it even if it is closer.

If local store versus national chain store wasn't an issue, how much more would you be willing to pay just to shop nearby your home?

I'd shop at both stores. I'm often willing to pay more for convenience, but sometimes price is more important. Another reason for patronizing both stores is that it lets you monitor how the prices compare.

I have a lot of retail choices in my neighborhood. Today I decided to go to store H instead of store D just because store H has a bike rack and store D doesn't. I guess we consumers are a fickle lot.

Some of my local stores have lower prices than the national chains. I think because their employees aren't unionized. The local stores are run by Koreans with hispanic employees. I have the feeling that the non-unionized meat cutters aren't as clean or careful with the expiration dates as the unionized ones. The national chains don't carry the Spanish style blood sausage or fresh tamarind so there is also the different product mix.

Is there any difference in quality? We face some of the same quandries with our grocery stores here, but the (usually) more expensive one we try to support is carrying much higher quality mostly organic food. And on that front, we've discovered that sometimes the more expensive stuff is cheaper in the end, especially when it comes to meats.

It's not an easy question to answer. I do know however, that all else being equal (which it seldom is) I opt for the store that's a longer ride.

I'd never patronize a store just because it was local. That's not say that I don't patronize local stores; just that the store being "local" isn't, in and of itself, of any value to me.

Better service and/or better products and/or a more accomodating way of doing business are things that local stores often offer. I value those things so will patronize a local store at higher cost to get them.

There is a small grocery store a couple of blocks away from me. The second closest grocery is four and a quarter miles away. It is a large national chain store.

As a car free person the nearby store seems like a great convenience.


4.25 miles IS local and nearby. That's even within walking distance.

In my situation right now, the local store is about 8 km (5 miles) away, and is a very small store with a very limited selection. The nearest large national chain is about 25 km (15 miles) away. Rowan and I don't own a vehicle, but we do have the use of one right now so we've stocked up on food from the national chain for now. We'll see what happens when we have to give the vehicle back to its owner. However, while Rowan was living in this area without the use of a vehicle, he stopped in at the local store for its post office services, and the occasional item ... but cycled to the large national chain once a week for everything else.

I have lived in a small town with less than 8000 people and I have tried to support my local markets as much as I can. However when I had to commute to work I wasn’t far from a COSTCO and it was a lot less expensive to stock up on non perishables and canned goods because we had a large area to store them in. We even bought a large freezer once and we could shop maybe once a month. I figured I saved maybe $150.00 a month by buying in bulk.

Now that I have moved to a bit larger community the small market is only about a mile away and the super market is a mile and a half. We shop once every two weeks at the larger store and get in-between items at the Fresh and Easy up the street. The prices are less at Fresh and Easy because they don’t have any Cashiers. You ring yourself up and pay at the register. I guess I used to be willing to pay a premium but now I can see no reason to do so.

There is only one locally owned grocery store in my town that I'm aware of, and it's way out of my way so I can't hardly shop there. I always go to Kroger (Publix when I move into my house), and I could save quite a bit by going to Walmart instead. But I'd have to ride in the most bike-unfriendly part of town, plus I hate Walmart. So I'm willing to pay a little more at Kroger, and I'll be willing to pay more at Publix, as well. It's mostly a matter of convenience. If the local store was closest, that's where I'd shop.

I've got it easy
2 malls, and 3 grocery chains all equidistant at 1.3/1.4 KM from home, I work at a bakery, which is right next to a local-product heavy market.

Toss in a local fresh produce market down the street, and I guess if you wanted to, you could count the over-priced-organics-only store as well (4.35 for 4L of milk, or 10 something!?)

I just moved here a month ago, and finally got pots and pans, so I'll be able to cook my own food. Now I just need to price out which is cheaper for what!

Maybe so much choice has it's own problems...

The benefit of shopping and banking at locally owned companies is that it acts like a multiplier of money within a community. Economists have calculated that money spent locally multiplies the use of that money by nine times. Every community not dependent on large scale manufacturing could pull itself out of the economic slump within only one month if everybody only bought products and did their banking with locally owned companies.

Locally means stores and banks that are owned by people who live within the city or state. This means not buying at national chain stores or using Citi, Chase, Bank of America, or any other criminally run institution. Just because there is a store or bank on your corner doesn't mean it is a locally owned institution.

The products I was writing about in the first post were all of the same quality and type. Those expensive sweet potatoes were not organically grown.

The benefit of shopping and banking at locally owned companies is that it acts like a multiplier of money within a community. Economists have calculated that money spent locally multiplies the use of that money by nine times. Every community not dependent on large scale manufacturing could pull itself out of the economic slump within only one month if everybody only bought products and did their banking with locally owned companies.

Locally means stores and banks that are owned by people who live within the city or state. This means not buying at national chain stores or using Citi, Chase, Bank of America, or any other criminally run institution. Just because there is a store or bank on your corner doesn't mean it is a locally owned institution.


In your case both shopping establishments are very "local" in terms of proximity, and shopping at either would benefit the community. Think of it this way. The small store is likely run by the people who own it (often a husband/wife team) and they might hire one other person to fill in now and then. The bigger store might hire 25 or 50 people (depending on how big it is) in the community. In this example, 3 people from the smaller store can turn around and purchase things from other local stores, thus helping the economy. But let's say 30 people were hired at the big store, therefore 30 people can turn around and purchase things from other local stores. That's 10 times as many people able to shop locally.

Chances are at least one of your neighbors works for the larger store. Would that person be happy if that store was deemed unviable and they either had to move to an even larger, more centralized store ... or had to find some other employment?

Throughout college, I walked several blocks extra to make it to the generic grocery store over the overpriced on-campus holdup station. No regrets.

Throughout college, I walked several blocks extra to make it to the generic grocery store over the overpriced on-campus holdup station. No regrets.

+1

The two years I went to the University in Edmonton I never ate in the cafeteria ... I always walked to either the restaurants about 2 km away, or the grocery store out that way. I got exercise AND I paid about half the price.

The benefit of shopping and banking at locally owned companies is that it acts like a multiplier of money within a community. Economists have calculated that money spent locally multiplies the use of that money by nine times. Every community not dependent on large scale manufacturing could pull itself out of the economic slump within only one month if everybody only bought products and did their banking with locally owned companies.

Locally means stores and banks that are owned by people who live within the city or state. This means not buying at national chain stores or using Citi, Chase, Bank of America, or any other criminally run institution. Just because there is a store or bank on your corner doesn't mean it is a locally owned institution.

The products I was writing about in the first post were all of the same quality and type. Those expensive sweet potatoes were not organically grown.

I agree and attempt to the same as much as feasible. Currently I am in Iowa rather than NC (imagine that) I have found a locally owned small grocery chain selection is not as good as a larger market but the prices are comparable. Funny you should mention the local multiplier, I was talking to my wife about this very thing the other day, we use a local state employees credit union and a local regional bank for all our banking needs. Our regional bank is one of the few that didn't jump on the band wagon and continued to make safe secure loans to local people, they are in great shape financially and will be around for quite a few more years. IIRC they were started around 1928 or so. We have a locally owned grocery chain where I live in NC that owns it's own meat packing plant and canning facility. When you buy meat or canned goods with his label on it, chances are very good it was grown within a 5 county area of the store.:thumb: The prices average about 8-10% higher than WM or the other regional chain super market. Small price to pay IMHO for keeping the money close to home.

Aaron:)

The benefit of shopping and banking at locally owned companies is that it acts like a multiplier of money within a community. Economists have calculated that money spent locally multiplies the use of that money by nine times. Every community not dependent on large scale manufacturing could pull itself out of the economic slump within only one month if everybody only bought products and did their banking with locally owned companies.

Locally means stores and banks that are owned by people who live within the city or state. This means not buying at national chain stores or using Citi, Chase, Bank of America, or any other criminally run institution. Just because there is a store or bank on your corner doesn't mean it is a locally owned institution.

The products I was writing about in the first post were all of the same quality and type. Those expensive sweet potatoes were not organically grown.

Within a month, eh? It's a shame you and those "economists" aren't in charge of things. Frankly, that's nonsense on stilts. I'm sure you can find an economist or two who will back up what you said, but you'll find many others who'd disagree. Chain stores are staffed by people who live in the community as well; their contributions to the economics of a community don't matter? What would happen to all of them if everyone took your advice? Would the local stores and banks absorb them immediately to meet the increased demand or would some join the ranks of the unemployed?

Local businesses that deliver value to their customers in the form of price or service or efficiency or whatever, are a positive for the local, regional, state, national and global economies. The same can be said for regional, national, and even global chains. Those that don't, aren't.

Wal-Mart and the like, the bugaboo of many, are a huge positive for the poor. Many of us here shop at stores other than Wal-Mart because we can afford to; the single parent of several may not have that choice.

Within a month, eh? It's a shame you and those "economists" aren't in charge of things. Frankly, that's nonsense on stilts. I'm sure you can find an economist or two who will back up what you said, but you'll find many others who'd disagree. Chain stores are staffed by people who live in the community as well; their contributions to the economics of a community don't matter? What would happen to all of them if everyone took your advice? Would the local stores and banks absorb them immediately to meet the increased demand or would some join the ranks of the unemployed?

Local businesses that deliver value to their customers in the form of price or service or efficiency or whatever, are a positive for the local, regional, state, national and global economies. The same can be said for regional, national, and even global chains. Those that don't, aren't.

Wal-Mart and the like, the bugaboo of many, are a huge positive for the poor. Many of us here shop at stores other than Wal-Mart because we can afford to; the single parent of several may not have that choice.

Exactly my point above. I wish there were a larger store or business of some sort in my area right now because I would have a chance at getting a job there. As it is, the surrounding towns just have the small "mom & pop" type shops, and they've got all the staff they need ... mom & pop.

And the people who live in this area (all 500 or so of them) could shop every day at those "mom & pop" shops (and many do), but those shops will still only employ mom & pop because 500 people isn't a large enough customer base to hire more people.

The other thing is that the "mom & pop" stores aren't buying locally either. Sure they might stock the occasional item from some local artist or someone who bakes or something, but most of the time the dairy products are coming from a large national factory in a nearby city, the bread is coming from a large national or international factory somewhere, the Coke is coming from the bottling plant in a nearby city, etc. etc.

So when you shop from a small "local" store, you are supporting mom & pop, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you're also supporting the large companies that supply them as well ....... just like if you were to shop from a large store you'd be supporting the larger number of staff they've hired, and the large companies that supply them.

If you want to have a choice, you have to shop at the local store some of the time. You can also let Mom & Pop know which items you don't buy there and they might lower the prices on those items. They do have to compete with the big stores, even on price to some extent, although convenience, service and selection are often areas where small stores are more competetive.

I have the opposite situation. Kroger is only 1/2 mile from my house and smaller stores are all further away. However, I don't buy much at Kroger other than household supplies and canned goods. I think my small local stores give me better value. For example, in Kroger yesterday, they had no packages of chicken smaller than 5 pounds. I wanted one piece of chicken for my dinner, but they were unwilling to provide that. I ended up spending more money buying a lot of chicken that I didn't want or need. At the local store, I could not only have gotten my one piece of chicken, I could have picked out the exact piece that I wanted, and only paid a few cents more per pound.

If you want cheap food skip the middle man and buy directly from the farmer.

If you want cheap food skip the middle man and buy directly from the farmer.

We buy a lot of food at farmer's markets and often pay more than we would at the grocery. I think it's worth it for the freshness and quality, but it ain't cheap. It's also the only way to get grass-fed beef around here.

I think it's worth it for the freshness and quality, but it ain't cheap. It's also the only way to get grass-fed beef around here

As far as I'm concerned, it's worth it to pay extra for better food (http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Food-Eaters-Manifesto/dp/1594201455). For me, that usually means food produced by small farms rather than factory-style operations.

Our Farmers markets are also more expensive than the stores, but the produce is MUCH better, so I will pay that premium. However, when it comes to day to day groceries, I am going to where it is the cheapest, and using coupons. Coupons can help save a ton of money.

Nearest grocery store to me is like 4 or 5 miles away. Sucks. If I want to get anything quicker than that there is a convenience store a quarter mile away, but they charge quite a bit.

Nearest grocery store to me is like 4 or 5 miles away. Sucks. If I want to get anything quicker than that there is a convenience store a quarter mile away, but they charge quite a bit.

4 or 5 miles is nothing ... it's a teensy, short ride ... I look at anything about 4 miles or less as walking distance. When you move to a place where the nearest grocery store is at least 15 miles away, that is a little bit more of a challenge.

"It depends."

I'm only aware that there might be a couple small grocery stores near my route between home and work. But, there's a store about 50 yards away, and that's where I go for almost everything.

I once guesstimated how much I'd save by driving to the big Shoppers store on the other side of the river, and unless I bought a big pile of stuff to make the most use of my time and/or fuel, I wouldn't actually save that much. I'm willing to pay a lil' extra for the convenience of having my entire shopping trip last less than ten minutes.

For groceries and the like, I have the choice to shop in town and pay a little more or to go to Penticton and save money on everything. The round trip to Penticton is around 50 kilometres, but if I'm going to make the grocery run worthwhile, I've got to drive down (as I'll have too many perishables to take back on the bike.) I'll have to factor in the cost of fuel and maintenance on my car. And I need to consider whether I'd rather save a few dollars or enjoy the extra time I'll save by shopping locally.

I can't realistically ask what my time is worth. If I'm off work and if I'm not involved in another money-making venture, my time is worth nothing from a purely commercial perspective as I'm not giving up paid work or potential income to make the trip. However, since I am involved in a number of extra activities, I need to determine how to use my time most effectively.

Also, before I go out of town for my day-to-day purchases, I need to ask what would happen if everyone were to do that. Eventually, the stores in my community would cease to exist and I'd lose the lcoal convenience I now can enjoy.

I have worked at a small natural foods store for the past 4 years. I believe there are several highly important aspects of shopping at a small business.

- Small stores like the one I work in require at most 2 full-time employees and 2 part-time employees to keep the business running smoothly. This results in a workplace where each employee receives a great deal of direct training from the owner or manager of the store. When I go to a big supermarket, I typically have to spend 5 minutes or more flagging down one of the few employees in the store and once I get them they're too stoned to answer my question.

- Ever wonder why the owner of that store decided to go into natural foods or being a natural grocer? Because they love food, and they knew more than anyone else they knew about natural foods. These people are incredible resources of information about not only the products they sell, but the processes by which they are made, information about the foods their competitors sell, and oftentimes they know the person who they are buying products from. This can give you a connection to your food that is far more direct than what you would get from a supermarket.

- Small stores produce less waste. They require less energy to run. Most of the time, smaller independent stores keep a very close watch on how much they waste. For example, at our store, when things go out of date, we give them away. My boss composts all waste produce at our store.

- Smaller stores may not carry all of the products you need to get, but mine will specially order anything you want in any quantity. We regularly sell products in bulk to customers at low markup.

I'm not willing to pay a dime just to support a local business. If they provide me with a good service, I may pay more for that. Convenience, personality, and other intangible factors keep small businesses alive. Businesses aren't charities.

A one pound bag of brown rice costs $1.85 at the small store and costs only $1.38 at the large store. If I were to pay a 20% premium on that rice to keep it within the limits of my local store subsidy it would only cost $1.66.

I typically pay under a dollar per pound for rice. Brown or white. But, I buy in 25lb bags, because we go through a bag every 4 months or so. This is an area where buying in bulk really matters, because the price difference is so large. Also, the only place where I can get large bags of rice are the local Asian grocery stores... there are at least four in my neighborhood (Korean, Japanese, Chinese/Thai). So I can pick exactly the rice I like best based on flavor.


The store brand of a can of baked beans from the small store costs 85 cents and the store brand baked beans at the large store costs 67 cents. The subsidized 20% higher price would equal 80 cents.

A 1lb bag of dried beans should be under $1.50 (good is under $1), and it makes 4-5 cans worth of beans. You can freeze the cooked beans in individual portions. The dried beans also *weigh* less... each can is about a pound. Traditional baked bean recipes aren't hard, and largely take time. Cooking overnight in a crock pot works well, and is pretty energy efficient.

I don't have a good source for bulk dried beans, so I end up buying 1lb bags. They keep as well as rice does, so it's safe to buy more and store when you find a good price.

If you focus on the items that keep well, you can generally get the biggest savings. It's really important not to buy more than you can use, but just moving up one size (say from a 1lb bag of rice to a 5lb) at a time will help you figure out where to stop. Heavily processed foods are the ones where it is hardest to save, so things like Pringles will not have very large price variations.

Fresh produce and meat are consistently the most expensive items for us, and often produce is more expensive than meat.

Fresh produce and meat are consistently the most expensive items for us, and often produce is more expensive than meat.


Our Farmers markets are also more expensive than the stores, but the produce is MUCH better, so I will pay that premium. However, when it comes to day to day groceries, I am going to where it is the cheapest, and using coupons. Coupons can help save a ton of money.


As far as I'm concerned, it's worth it to pay extra for better food (http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Food-Eaters-Manifesto/dp/1594201455). For me, that usually means food produced by small farms rather than factory-style operations.


We buy a lot of food at farmer's markets and often pay more than we would at the grocery. I think it's worth it for the freshness and quality, but it ain't cheap. It's also the only way to get grass-fed beef around here.

Too true--thanks to our country's f*ed up agricultural policies, where farmers are paid to grow more food rather than better food. Only a few commodities are subsidized, and those are mostly for crops that aren't even directly consumed by humans. Farmers make the most money by growing enormous quantities of corn and soybeans for manufacture into chemicals and meat. There are no subsidies for small farmers to grow the kinds of food that most people want to eat.

Better service and/or better products and/or a more accomodating way of doing business are things that local stores often offer. I value those things so will patronize a local store at higher cost to get them.

It really sucks when all there is is wally world

It is very odd that none of the stores in town other than the health food store have bags of brown rice bigger than two pounds. Those two pound bags are hard to find. Most of the time they come in one pound sizes. There are twenty-five pound bags of white rice available at the national chain store.

Lately I've been buying five pound bags of pinto beans instead of the two pound size. I use them for a beans and rice dish and a refried beans dish. I just buy canned baked beans as emergency food and for when I notice the cupboard and refrigerator have nothing else to eat.

The ground beef at the locally owned store was spoiled today. When I got home with the package and opened it there was a bad odor. They took it back and refunded my money. This is the sixth time in three years that has happened. I bought some pork chops instead of taking home a different package of ground beef.

If their meat prices were higher than the store that is four and a quarter miles away I would have made the trip to the other store. Meat is the only thing this store sells at competitive prices.

Too true--thanks to our country's f*ed up agricultural policies, where farmers are paid to grow more food rather than better food. Only a few commodities are subsidized, and those are mostly for crops that aren't even directly consumed by humans. Farmers make the most money by growing enormous quantities of corn and soybeans for manufacture into chemicals and meat. There are no subsidies for small farmers to grow the kinds of food that most people want to eat.

Yup. Ground beef is typically under $3/lb (more if I go for grass fed), and whole chickens are also right at the $3/lb mark. Ground pork or sausage is often less. Unless I stick to potatoes, carrots, onions, celery and fennel (no, I don't know why fennel), I'm paying over $3/lb for produce at my local grocery store. I can do somewhat better by buying frozen or shopping at other stores, but you have to really know what's cheap where. A small market near the library has a reputation for costing a fortune... but if you want nice lettuces and in season fruit, they're actually not bad.

It messes with my head, because meat *should* be expensive. It takes a lot more work/food to raise a meat animal.

...(no, I don't know why fennel)...
It's for fennel fish, a classic & unexpectedly good flavor combination. The basic idea is to cover any white fish with chopped fennel & bake. Use other ingredients & cooking methods for variety.

Wal-Mart and the like, the bugaboo of many, are a huge positive for the poor. Many of us here shop at stores other than Wal-Mart because we can afford to; the single parent of several may not have that choice.

BS :rolleyes:

What Premium Are You Willing To Pay?

If local store versus national chain store wasn't an issue, how much more would you be willing to pay just to shop nearby your home?


First, you have two issues going on. Is your primary interest the closer store, or buying local?

My preferences really depends on the purchase and don't conform to a well thought-out plan.

BS :rolleyes:

I'm guessing you've never been poor.

For most of us Milk, eggs, butter, bacon, beef chicken or pork are all pretty much the same no matter where we get it. If we can save 10 or 20 bucks a week shopping at Wal-Mart or one of the national chains it doesn’t matter much. How much more natural is a potato sold at a small market than it is at a large one? At our local National Chain store the Strawberries come from the same place as the small market.

I might pay going prices but it is hard to justify paying more that the going prices. I look at it as everything I save on food means more I can spend on bike equipment.

It is the everyday items that make the difference in families shopping expenses. If you have to pay 10 to 20 percent more to buy form local families run market or organic food that converts to 10 to 20 percent less to feed the family. Like someone already mentioned coupon shopping can save a lot of money at the register as well.

When I think about it in this economy paying more for the same thing of even less of anything doesn’t seem practical.

We often talk about sustainable living here in this forum but looking at the economy one of the only retail sellers to turn a profit at the end of 2008 was Wal-Mart. Like them or not they meet the needs of the consumer, or at least their wants.

We often talk about sustainable living here in this forum but looking at the economy one of the only retail sellers to turn a profit at the end of 2008 was Wal-Mart. Like them or not they meet the needs of the consumer, or at least their wants.

+1

And in Alberta, at least, and I believe other areas as well, they were hiring while other companies were laying off. Minimum wage is better than nothing at all.

BS :rolleyes:

Your insight is clearly an argument-ender. Well done.

Too true--thanks to our country's f*ed up agricultural policies, where farmers are paid to grow more food rather than better food. Only a few commodities are subsidized, and those are mostly for crops that aren't even directly consumed by humans. Farmers make the most money by growing enormous quantities of corn and soybeans for manufacture into chemicals and meat. There are no subsidies for small farmers to grow the kinds of food that most people want to eat.


It's worse than that, farmers are often paid to grow nothing at all.

Our farm policy is another example of corporatism that distorts markets. It enriches the large players, makes it difficult for the small players to compete, and makes it extremely difficult for new players to enter the market.

I'm guessing you've never been poor.

Poor like having just enough money for rent on a trailer and food? Nothing left to spend on extras at Wal-mart or anywhere else? Yes, I've been that poor.

Poor like the person "getting by" by working at Wal-Mart part time? No, I don't know that kind of poor.

The people that see Wal-Mart as a saviour are apparently only capable of looking at the consumer side of the economy. There's always the inherent assumption that people truly NEED to be buying the things they're being sold, and that they need to be buying them new. Buying disposable goods of ever decreasing quality more cheaply is only serving the supply side. They will make more money selling you five toasters over your lifetime than one.

You're right though, they are giving the people what they want... a basket full of "stuff". Doesn't matter what stuff, just stuff.


Bought my daughter a tricycle and looked all over the place at what was available, including the big-box stores. I could have spent $40-50 on some absolute junk that wouldn't have survived her, spent $200 on a Kettler or equivelent, OR spent $75 on a Kettler on Craigslist. I went with the latter, and when she's done with it I will sell it for ~$75. The person who could only afford the new cheaper model will be lucky to sell theirs for $5 at a yard sale.

In the end, my daughter had a nicer tricycle and I'm up $35 over the "poor" person.

--------
Yes, I do have money in the bank now, and a decent job, but I've been in jail, worked on the hog farm, delivered pizza, gone over 4 years in the south without a license. I remember it, and that contributes to my assertion that consumerism is a plague on our culture. To pretend that you're doing someone a service by enabling it is akin to sending someone down the street to the "cheap" crack dealer.




Your insight is clearly an argument-ender. Well done.

I'd rather stab myself in the leg than waste time with one of your "defender of the people" posts.

It's worse than that, farmers are often paid to grow nothing at all.

Our farm policy is another example of corporatism that distorts markets. It enriches the large players, makes it difficult for the small players to compete, and makes it extremely difficult for new players to enter the market.

It didn't start out that way. Now though, the farm bill is [to me] one of the most sickening pieces of legislation to come out of Washington.

We need to seriously ask ourselves why we subsidize Little Debbie and Doritos (corn products), but not green beans, oranges and broccoli.

Buying disposable goods of ever decreasing quality more cheaply is only serving the supply side. They will make more money selling you five toasters over your lifetime than one.

Yeah, I hate when that happens... I go and buy cheap food at Walmart, and it just doesn't last... I have to go back the next week and buy more!

Why bother when I can pay 3x as much at a 'local' store and it will last me forever?


wait... it doesn't work like that, does it? :(

How much more natural is a potato sold at a small market than it is at a large one?


You're right of course that there won't be much difference between a small market potato and one from Meijers or Kroger. In fact, small market produce is often less fresh looking than stuff from the big chains.

But there's probably a bigger difference between organic potatoes and non-organic potatoes. Actually, commercial potatoes have very high levels of pesticides and fungicides. They spray chemicals on the potatoes after they're harvested so they will store longer, and residues of those chemicals are still present when you buy your spuds.

Some crops have particularly high levels of chemical residues that you end up eating. Other crops are raised in ways that are particularly damaging to the environment. With just a few minutes of research, you can find out which non-organic foods are particularly "bad". Buy organic versions of those, and non-organic versions of other crops that are less harmful to health and the environment. For example, I buy organic green peppers but non-organic lettuce.

Also, check prices before you purchase. Just in the last year or two, organic prices have often gone down relative to non-organic. In fact, I often find organic produce that's actually cheaper.

It's worse than that, farmers are often paid to grow nothing at all.

Our farm policy is another example of corporatism that distorts markets. It enriches the large players, makes it difficult for the small players to compete, and makes it extremely difficult for new players to enter the market.

You might want to fact check your first statement. Earl Butz (a real blast from the past--Sec. of Agric. for Nixon) did away with paying farmers not to grow back in I believe 1970. Now farmers get bigger subsidies if they grow MORE of the subsidized crop. This keeps consumers happy with low market prices on a distorted commodities market, while still allowing agribusiness to game the system and make billions of dollars in federal grants.

If big subsidized farmers try to grow less by not planting some of their acres (maybe because they want to grow specialty food crops for local markets), they end up having to pay back some of the subsidies they formerly received. Obviously this discourages farmers from growing different crops.

Another fine example of Welfare for the Wealthy brought to you by the Republican Party.

When you talk about paying a premium for food, THIS is where you're paying that premium--welfare for the wealthy--not at the local organic market.

Poor like the person "getting by" by working at Wal-Mart part time? No, I don't know that kind of poor.
It's a crying shame that Wal-Mart enslaves these part-time workers. They could have much better paying jobs if only Wal-Mart wasn't holding them hostage. On the other hand, maybe some of those part-time workers like the opportunity to supplement the family income with a part-time job. Maybe they have income and health insurance and other fringe benefits through their spouse's employer and a part-time job at Wal-Mart is the difference between poor and middle class. Or maybe they're retired from another career and supplement their pension/social security/retirement savings by working part-time? Or maybe they're just starting out and see opportunities for career advancement into management at Wal-Mart through their own efforts? No, can't be. All part-time workers at Wal-Mart are the poorest of the poor because Jeff said so.
The people that see Wal-Mart as a saviour are apparently only capable of looking at the consumer side of the economy. There's always the inherent assumption that people truly NEED to be buying the things they're being sold, and that they need to be buying them new. Buying disposable goods of ever decreasing quality more cheaply is only serving the supply side. They will make more money selling you five toasters over your lifetime than one.
Yeah, those consumerists paying 20% less for food and clothing are really getting screwed. They clearly don't NEED those things.

Don't want the low end toaster that only lasts a few years? Don't buy one. Of course, the $15 toaster I bought 11 years ago, that still works as it did when new, kind of puts the lie to your theory.

I don't think anyone here is saying Wal-Mart is a savior, but it's indisputable that their business and supply chain models save consumers a bunch of money. Poor people benefit especially.

You're right though, they are giving the people what they want... a basket full of "stuff". Doesn't matter what stuff, just stuff.
People are such idiots, they need wise keepers like you to tell them what stuff they need.

Bought my daughter a tricycle and looked all over the place at what was available, including the big-box stores. I could have spent $40-50 on some absolute junk that wouldn't have survived her, spent $200 on a Kettler or equivelent, OR spent $75 on a Kettler on Craigslist. I went with the latter, and when she's done with it I will sell it for ~$75. The person who could only afford the new cheaper model will be lucky to sell theirs for $5 at a yard sale.

In the end, my daughter had a nicer tricycle and I'm up $35 over the "poor" person.
Of course someone else had to buy that trike new to make this scenario possible. There's not anything wrong with buying used, but it's only possible because of the consumerism you decry.

I'd rather stab myself in the leg than waste time with one of your "defender of the people" posts.

Not sure where you get the "defender of the people" thing. I think people are almost always better off when they "defend" themselves.

All my snark and sarcasm aside, what does "go[ing] over 4 years in the south without a license" have to do with this?

Walmart's (and others) business model has driven most manufacturing out of this country, people that were making average factory wages of $14 an hour 10 years ago can now only find jobs at Walmart making ~$10-12 an hour, that is an income loss of around $8 an hour adjusted for inflation, also with as much money as WM brings in they could easily supply all of their "associates" with full medical benefits, instead of having them public assistance.

I have seen it happen time and time again with textiles, hand tools, small power tools and small appliances. What Walmart does today is something akin to what the The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company got slapped down for back in the 1930's. But they have managed to keep Washington on their side via the lobbyists.

Not to mention the overall decline in the quality of goods, prices have grown slightly, but quality has nose dived. Inflation is a fact of life, however keeping it in check by producing lower quality goods and keeping the price the same. We are in a race to the bottom and WM is leading the way. Think what will/would happen if they go the way of GM and Chrysler?

Aaron:)

You're right of course that there won't be much difference between a small market potato and one from Meijers or Kroger. In fact, small market produce is often less fresh looking than stuff from the big chains.

But there's probably a bigger difference between organic potatoes and non-organic potatoes. Actually, commercial potatoes have very high levels of pesticides and fungicides. They spray chemicals on the potatoes after they're harvested so they will store longer, and residues of those chemicals are still present when you buy your spuds.

Some crops have particularly high levels of chemical residues that you end up eating. Other crops are raised in ways that are particularly damaging to the environment. With just a few minutes of research, you can find out which non-organic foods are particularly "bad". Buy organic versions of those, and non-organic versions of other crops that are less harmful to health and the environment. For example, I buy organic green peppers but non-organic lettuce.

Also, check prices before you purchase. Just in the last year or two, organic prices have often gone down relative to non-organic. In fact, I often find organic produce that's actually cheaper.

I have tried organic Bananas and non organic bananas side by side and can’t say I have noticed the difference except the organic ones were a lot more expensive. Organic apples don’t seem to have more flavor than non organic ones. But there is a cost difference and that cost is passed along to the family. We aren’t talking mass consumerism here we are talking day to day living. At this stage in our economy organic foods haven’t found a way to justify their increased slice of the food budget, at least not for me. With organics small market share I guess I am not alone. But if I run across an organic product that costs less I would buy it. It just doesn’t seem to happen very often in the items I buy.

First, you have two issues going on. Is your primary interest the closer store, or buying local?

My preferences really depends on the purchase and don't conform to a well thought-out plan.

I realize there are two issues here. Depending on ones situation they can both be considered. In both cases it is about convenience versus price. Look at the distance issue from both sides. How far would you ride to get a better price for the same item? You could also see it as how much more would you be willing to spend for the same item at a nearby store that charges more than a store farther away?

In my case I decided to give the locally owned store a maximum of 20% more of my money to keep the profits within the state. To me that means the locally owned store bread selling for $1.20 would equal the $1.00 bread at the farther away national chain store. So, if the locally owned store sells that bread for $1.35 it means that I would be willing to pedal the extra four miles to buy that bread at the national chain store. Of course that would be part of my full grocery load. If I were only going out to buy bread then the locally owned store would probably get my money for the convenience, unless I were in the mood for a ride.

Service and quality are valuable to me and they are considerations in my purchases. My cost comparisons and my personal willingness to subsidize the locally owned store take into account equal levels of service and quality.

Yesterday I ordered a new computer. I use an Apple computer as my main workhorse but a new project requires some Windows programs. Instead of paying $189.00 to buy XP and run it on my Mac, I decided to get an inexpensive computer running Windows. It will also act as a backup computer.

Acer, Asus, Lenovo, and some others were considered. When researching which ones had the most complaints and the worst customer service I decided to buy either a Dell or HP. They aren't perfect and they do cost a little more, but the level of service from both meant they would get my money. The local dealer based in town got my call first. Unfortunately they seem to give off an attitude of condescension and hautiness that was unacceptable. So I ordered directly from the manufacturer. I bought this with a slightly better graphics card and the card reader: http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=desktops&a1=Category&v1=Everyday+computing&series_name=a6700z_series

I got a free printer and some new headphones too. This low end computer can do everything my old dead seven year old high end Windows XP computer could do and much more.

Poor like having just enough money for rent on a trailer and food? Nothing left to spend on extras at Wal-mart or anywhere else? Yes, I've been that poor.

Poor like the person "getting by" by working at Wal-Mart part time? No, I don't know that kind of poor.



I'm talking poor like ... after you've paid this month's rent, you've got $10 a week for the coming month to pay for food ....... so the $1 loaf of bread at Walmart looks a lot better than the $2 loaf of bread at a smaller grocery store because by saving that $1, you can buy a luxury item like margarine to put on the bread.