Professional Cycling For the Fans - TdF Stage 17 - Wednesday July 22 - 169 km - Bourg-Saint-Maurice → Le Grand-Bornand

...He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.

I have two problems with this.

1. You don't think he could have taken the Schlecks in the finish if he had wanted to? He could have gapped them in the final 2km of the climb. He could have ridden away from them in the final kilometer, or just blown by them at the end. He could have taken the stage any of three different ways. He didn't do it because Kloden's legs didn't have what Kloden himself thought he had in them, and when the Schlecks rode on, he was doing the smartest thing possible - sitting on hoping Kloden could ride himself back into it. Also, gifting the stage to the guy who did most of the work on a stage like that has quite a precedence, especially when other riders with bigger prizes come to the line with them. It's a sign of respect and good manners.

2. AC did gain a bunch of time over his nearest rivals. Wiggins, Nibali, and yes, Lance and Kloden all are farther behind him tonight than they were last night. Stage 18 should see him put more time into both the Schlecks. Mission Accomplished. Maybe Johann isn't going to live the egotistical DS's dream of filling the entire podium, but perhaps the sport will be the better for it.

^^I'd say it shows some recognition of the situation he put his team in, and some remorse, to have that body language at the end (a sign I'd guess he realized his mistake - even if it's not what he said in post-race interviews). Instead of just "look at me - I put time into my only ITT threat left, so I've just about sown up the yellow!"

THAT would have been a completely TO-type immature response.

It'll be interesting to see how Kloden bounces back and does tomorrow in the ITT, since it sounds like he was complete toast today. Which might mean AC's attack didn't "cost" Astana a podium spot, anyway, if Kloden does poorly in the ITT.

I have two problems with this.

1. You don't think he could have taken the Schlecks in the finish if he had wanted to? He could have gapped them in the final 2km of the climb. He could have ridden away from them in the final kilometer, or just blown by them at the end. He could have taken the stage any of three different ways. He didn't do it because Kloden's legs didn't have what Kloden himself thought he had in them, and when the Schlecks rode on, he was doing the smartest thing possible - sitting on hoping Kloden could ride himself back into it. Also, gifting the stage to the guy who did most of the work on a stage like that has quite a precedence, especially when other riders with bigger prizes come to the line with them. It's a sign of respect and good manners.

2. AC did gain a bunch of time over his nearest rivals. Wiggins, Nibali, and yes, Lance and Kloden all are farther behind him tonight than they were last night. Stage 18 should see him put more time into both the Schlecks. Mission Accomplished. Maybe Johann isn't going to live the egotistical DS's dream of filling the entire podium, but perhaps the sport will be the better for it.

Regarding 1. I re-watched the stage tonight. AC actually could have pulled away and dropped the Schlecks. He gapped them real fast. He slowed when realized that Kloden dropped when the Schlecks tried to cover the move. It looked like JB told AC on the radio that Kloden got dropped by the way he stopped to take a look. Then dropped back hoping that Kloden would bridge. But AC clearly could have left and reached the summit on his own.

Contador's attacks are like a 100 meter sprinter coming out of the blocks. It very well may have been that Kloden thought he was up to it, but AC just took off so fast that Kloden didn't even get out of the blocks. Then the Schlecks tried to cover, effectively gapping Kloden. Then AC looks back, "Ah, crap," and backs off. He's like a kid that doesn't realize his own speed.

She???

You just finished the hardest stage of the tour, and gifted the stage win, and are expecting the team to be all over you because your attack unexpectedly put a gap into your teammate, and you expect "bouncy"?

I too think AC showed some cracks today. He couldn't drop the Shlecks with his patented move. If he goes hard tomorrow, and doesn't recover well on Friday's stage he might crack on Ventoux. I think lots of riders are going to crack there.

Then AC looks back, "Ah, crap," and backs off. He's like a kid that doesn't realize his own speed.

...with a directeur sportif not 100% committed to ensuring the best rider in the world finishes at the top of the podium.

Contador's performance only makes ridiculous the whole Armstrong-Contador pseudo-drama of even five days ago. Not to take anything away from what Armstrong accomplished in his career, but right now Lance is nowhere near the rider Contador is.

The soon-to-be demise of Astana is probably the best thing imaginable for the sport. Bruyneel is obviously the most talented man in the world at what he does, but backing the 38-year-old over the 26-year-old certainly suggests winning more victories is no longer Bruyneel's number one priority. (But Starbucks-Livestrong--or whatever it's called--will ensure that Bruyneel--and Bruyneel's family--is very very well taken care of.)

...with a directeur sportif not 100% committed to ensuring the best rider in the world finishes at the top of the podium.

Contador's performance only makes ridiculous the whole Armstrong-Contador pseudo-drama of even five days ago. Not to take anything away from what Armstrong accomplished in his career, but right now Lance is nowhere near the rider Contador is.

The soon-to-be demise of Astana is probably the best thing imaginable for the sport. Bruyneel is obviously the most talented man in the world at what he does, but backing the 38-year-old over the 26-year-old certainly suggests winning more victories is no longer Bruyneel's number one priority. (But Starbucks-Livestrong--or whatever it's called--will ensure that Bruyneel--and Bruyneel's family--is very very well taken care of.)

Yeah, it seemed like he looked back probably after Bruyneel hit on the radio telling him that Kloden got dumped. They should have just let the kid go off and drop the Schlecks. Because they were definitely gapped and loosing ground before AC stopped to look back. Would have made the whole situation better.

The problem with what Contador did was that, yea, the Shlecks could have upped the tempo and shed Kloden, but in that case, they would be the ones expending the energy to do so. Contador did this for them; Contador spent his own energy to pop a teammate instead of forcing the Schlecks to do it.

If Contador didn't attack, it is likely that they would have stayed at the tempo they were at and Kloden would have stayed with the group and kept his spot on the GC. The Schlecks had already gone on some pretty wild attacks and might have been of the mindset of "oh well, we tried" and be content to just ride hard enough to keep Wiggens away. Contador and Kloden wouldn't have to do any work at all and it would rest solely on the shoulders of the Schlecks to keep the tempo up.

Any way you spin this, Contador f-ed up. In the end he didn't increase his lead over the Schlecks at all, but only swept away both of his teammates and burnt a lot of energy in the process. Even if he had thought that he had been given the green light, he should have done a bit of thinking on his own and come to the conclusion that the attack made no sense at all. Here he was, on even time with his rivals and with a teammate in a select group. He and Kloden could have worked the Schlecks over pretty well in the closing couple km and perhaps walked away with a stage win for Astana. Instead, he goes on his silly attack, drops his own teammate, loses the stage, doesn't gain any time over his nearest rivals and burns precious energy he could have applied to the TT tomorrow.

+1. Well put.

The big effect is that it puts Armstrong and Kloeden after the Schlecks in the ITT. Not that big of a deal but a tactical disadvantage. Then again, Contador is good at screwing up tactics.

+1. Well put.

The big effect is that it puts Armstrong and Kloeden after the Schlecks in the ITT. Not that big of a deal but a tactical disadvantage. Then again, Contador is good at screwing up tactics.

It's only a "tactical disadvantage" if your "goal" is to get Armstrong on the podium.

But if it's for Contador--ASTANA--to win... again, AC put serious time between himself and the TTers today, and didn't lose even a second to the climbers. We'll see if he wasted energy today by how he rides tomorrow--he certainly didn't look spent to me and I expect a top 5 perfomance around the lake--but between Annecy and Ventoux it seems he made the right move.

It's only a "tactical disadvantage" if your "goal" is to get Armstrong on the podium.


There was the possibility of Contador, Armstrong, and Kloden on the podium together.

Not a bad goal.

I finally saw the race on the Versus replay.

I found it interesting that the announcers said this was a bad move as soon as it happened....even before AC sat up and looked back. They were referring to the stage and the immediate situation, that when you had 2 Astana and 2 Saxo Bank together that there was no reason to attack.

It was only a few minutes later that the All Lance All The Time TV station mentioned how this move would effect their ratings.....err....I mean the podium chances of LA and Kloden.

I'll admit I couldn't read every post, but a lot of them, and I haven't seen mention of another reason the AC move was downright stupid. What if AC has a Jens Voigt moment (for whatever reason) and faceplants along the way to Paris? Before his brainfart yesterday Astana had a good chance of still winning the Tour....now....not so much.

He lost Kloden!

Another bonehead move by Contador. He had no reason to attack there; better to counter any moves by the Schlecks and keep Kloden in the group. If Lance is able to bridge up like he did the day before, even better.

This whole "Contador is dumb" thing is really overplayed. He's just put more time into couple of the biggest rivals. He'll put more on Andy Schleck tomorrow at the TT. He's in the yellow and pulling away. So tactically, he's where he needs to be.

He only put time on Lance and Kloden and Wiggins. Didn't gain a second on the Schlecks. Didn't need to.

Contador really shouldn't have attacked and dropped Kloden. He might've needed him on the descent. If he'd had a flat or mechanincal problem, the Schlecks would've been long gone; taking the Yellow jersey with them.

...and does anybody actually believe that if AC hadn't attacked, that the Schleks wouldn't have tried again and in the process dropped Kloden?

Yes. They weren't going to attack on the ascent, as they knew they couldn't shake Contador and an attack could've dislodged one of them in the process.

Yeah, it seemed like he looked back probably after Bruyneel hit on the radio telling him that Kloden got dumped. They should have just let the kid go off and drop the Schlecks. Because they were definitely gapped and loosing ground before AC stopped to look back. Would have made the whole situation better.

If it was an uphill finish yes, but with over a 9 mile descent, they were going to catch him unless AC took huge chances and for what?

You are really discrediting yourself.

So maybe I'm missing something here but... At what point during this year's tour has Kloden done work for Contador? Was it reasonable to expect Kloden to help, especially if he couldn't keep up with an attack like that? Every time I look, Kloden is towing Armstrong; and almost every time AC has made serious time on his opponents, it's a TT or a big solo attack on a mountain stage -- the latter of which keep getting labeled as a "bad move" or "not according to plan."

And shouldn't Brunyneel stay positive about his own 1st place rider in public, even if he chewed him out in person?

Not to say that Contador isn't relying on his team, but it still does not seem like Astana has 100% lined up behind AC and focused on getting/keeping him in Yellow....

If it was an uphill finish yes, but with over a 9 mile descent, they were going to catch him unless AC took huge chances and for what?

You are really discrediting yourself.

Talk about discrediting, Frank isn't exactly known for his great descending ability.

Talk about discrediting, Frank isn't exactly known for his great descending ability.

From watching the stage, neither is Contador... climbers, all. He was repeatedly getting gapped on corners.

So maybe I'm missing something here but... At what point during this year's tour has Kloden done work for Contador? Was it reasonable to expect Kloden to help, especially if he couldn't keep up with an attack like that? Every time I look, Kloden is towing Armstrong; and almost every time AC has made serious time on his opponents, it's a TT or a big solo attack on a mountain stage -- the latter of which keep getting labeled as a "bad move" or "not according to plan."

And shouldn't Brunyneel stay positive about his own 1st place rider in public, even if he chewed him out in person?

Not to say that Contador isn't relying on his team, but it still does not seem like Astana has 100% lined up behind AC and focused on getting/keeping him in Yellow....

Kloden was bringing bottles and food up to AC yesterday.

Yes. They weren't going to attack on the ascent, as they knew they couldn't shake Contador and an attack could've dislodged one of them in the process.

Julich and Andy Schlek disagree:


http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2009/news/story?id=4351143

Julich and Andy Schlek disagree:


http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2009/news/story?id=4351143


Nice find. When I do occasionally stray into espn's tour coverage all I see are the videos and Bonnie Ford. Guess I shoulda been checking under olympics.