Professional Cycling For the Fans - TdF Stage 17 - Wednesday July 22 - 169 km - Bourg-Saint-Maurice → Le Grand-Bornand

True, but you also have to balance that with the extra time they gained on Wiggins, who is the strongest time trialler of AC's rivals and up to today, proved he could hang in there on the climbs. And if hypothetically, the attacked worked and he gained some more time on the Schlecks, then he's got a nice buffer heading up to Ventoux


Trying to sweep the podium is a dangerous strategy especially with two most decisive stages still left and I don't even think that's Bruyneel's strategy, it seems to me he's more concerned with getting LA on the podium than ensuring that AC actually wins.

I agree with all of this.

Absolute guess. AC & AK were discussing the stage win. AC likely asked AK if he wanted to go. I saw Kloden shake his head no a few times. AC probably told him I am going if they catch me you counter. I don't think AC was being malicious with the attack. For the team it ended up being a blunder, but for yellow it was a good day.

I think Kloden could have stayed with the group without the attack, and would be in second, and LA likely would have finished about one minute down. This would likely make the 1,2 &3 after the ITT, but the yellow is more secure now.

I guess for JB winning the tour isn't enough he has to sweep.

Richard

Perhaps Johan was trying to protect the Armstrong brand in preparation for next year?

Look.... Taking AC & JB at their words....

1. Contador did not follow team goals & orders, hurting, not just Kloden but also Armstrong, hurting the chances of an Astana sweep (which I'm sure the team & sponsors would love, first time since 1940 or something?).
2. Contador & Kloden were apparently good on the attack, outside of orders, but Kloden missed and then exploded, leaving Contador ahead, the damage done.

contador did a power check and kloden was cooked. he would have fell off anyhow i'll bet.

ed rader

...and does anybody actually believe that if AC hadn't attacked, that the Schleks wouldn't have tried again and in the process dropped Kloden?

Look.... Taking AC & JB at their words....

1. Contador did not follow team goals & orders, hurting, not just Kloden but also Armstrong, hurting the chances of an Astana sweep (which I'm sure the team & sponsors would love, first time since 1940 or something?). 2. Contador & Kloden were apparently good on the attack, outside of orders, but Kloden missed and then exploded, leaving Contador ahead, the damage done.

can you blame contador? ... he's never really had full support from his team. bruyneel has too many irons in the fire, and since when does the yellow jersey ride to place domestiques on the podium? that ain't how lance raced.

"no gifts."

ed rader

I actually don't think they would have. They tried and tried, and realized AC was going nowhere. I think at that point their goal was Wiggins. I suspect they would have rode tempo for the rest of the stage. They didn't have much real estate left to attack, and put enough time on AC. But then again I don't see it is a sin AC attacked either.

Richard


...and does anybody actually believe that if AC hadn't attacked, that the Schleks wouldn't have tried again and in the process dropped Kloden?

What's clear to me is that Alberto Contador is a great individual rider who is the strongest in the mountains this year.

It is also clear to me that he feels the team "owes him" and doesn't feel a need to follow team orders or conform to the bigger picture of a team win or maximizing team achievements on the podium outside his own and the implied need of pleasing sponsors.

As a manager Bruyneel has an obligation to place his best rider and as many team riders as possible to fill the podium whenever possible to maximize value to the sponsors. I doubt if Contador cares since he has burnt Astana with his actions. Giving credit where credit is due, Lance has ridden as a team rider and a domestique to Contador ever since Alberto proved himself the strongest.

can you blame contador? ... he's never really had full support from his team. bruyneel has too many irons in the fire, and since when does the yellow jersey ride to place domestiques on the podium? that ain't how lance raced.

"no gifts."

ed rader

Of course I can.... this IS a team sport. Team success is very important! They weren't getting White, Green, or Dots, and they saw an opportunity to go full GC podium. I can't blame them, it would be a HUGE and rare achievement.

Personally, I'm not rooting for Astana, so I'm glad AC helped pull the shutout apart. But, honestly, I don't get all this blinded love/hate toward certain riders.

I actually don't think they would have. They tried and tried, and realized AC was going nowhere. I think at that point their goal was Wiggins. I suspect they would have rode tempo for the rest of the stage. They didn't have much real estate left to attack, and put enough time on AC. But then again I don't see it is a sin AC attacked either.

Richard

but you're forgetting that Kloden was/is a threat to them as well and I'm sure as soon as they realized he was suffering, they would have gone knowing that they wouldn't shed contador but at least would have lost Kloden.

Huh. Haven't seen this yet (trapped at work!), but all the analysis seems to suggest that Contador took Astana from 1,2,3 to 1,4,5. Yah, yah, strongest rider, etc. Right. There is no QUESTION that Contador wins the Tour, baring catastrophe. But Astana was positioned to do even better, with at least one and possibly two more team members on the podium. That was probably lost today, or the odds were greatly diminished.

And I don't buy the "gain time on Wiggins" argument. Wiggins is going to beat Contador? No. All that is under discussion now is who's in 2nd and 3rd. Contador changed that a lot today, and not in a good way for his team.

i wouldn't follow team orders either if i did not trust my director sportif... and clearly what has JB done to earn AC's trust? plus i think its a little too premature to be worrying about and gaming for a podium sweep. slam dunking first place should be about 10 times more important than anything else.

There's a whole lot of whining about guys that are getting dropped on big climbs. I'm a Kloden fan, but he doesn't have any excuse for dropping off the way he did. You wanna be on the podium, at least ride a tempo and limit the damage. He just plummeted, for cripes sake. Contador didn't make him do that.

Sure he did. Contador thought he could crack the two brothers and instead he cracked his own teammate.

I've already written that Contador can't be responsible for winning the tour and seeing everyone is happy too. That said, the move he made was totally dumb as it did nothing to help him and nothing to help his team. A true LOSE/LOSE.

i wouldn't follow team orders either if i did not trust my director sportif... and clearly what has JB done to earn AC's trust? plus i think its a little too premature to be worrying about and gaming for a podium sweep. slam dunking first place should be about 10 times more important than anything else.

in the end contador realized the only things he could trust are his legs.

"no gifts."

ed rader

kloden should be happy that at least he wasn't ordered to set a blistering tempo to soften the shlecks up for a contador counter attack, which as many have stated here, would probably have been the strategy back in lance's hey days... i really thought kloden was setting up well for a run at stage victory... just sitting back all day, but in the end, he just didn't have it. sure AC is a bit responsible but its still more on kloden shoulders to hang tough.

Ed, I really think you are missing the boat with the whole AC/JB/Astana thing. The kid has not gotten a raw deal from Astana...in fact they have helped his career in a way that probably no other team could have. JB saw that he was a talented guy, recruited him and threw the team behind him to win the TdF in 2007. He got screwed in '08 by Vino more than anyone as it was his actions that caused Astana to be excluded from the tour. So...he goes and wins the Giro & the Vuelta with the help of a very strong squad. And after all of that, all he seems to do is whine. Do you remember last year how he moaned about how close Levi finished to him the Vuelta? He basically said that he got no support from the team. I found that to be insulting as Levi never attacked/tried to challenge AC, he was simply there for him. It's not like that was the first team to place 1/2 in a grand tour.

Maybe AC would have won three grand tours on any team but maybe being on Discovery & Astana has as much to do with his success as his riding ability. Ask Cadel Evans if he thinks the strength of a team makes a difference.

What's really wrong with a team saying that they will determine and support the strongest rider? CV was supposed to be the leader of Garmin but is now riding in support of Wiggins. He didn't get all butt-hurt and go whining to the press about it. What have LA or JB done to hinder AC from winning the tour. I'm sure you're going to argue that they have done a lot but if you are really fair, you'll see that they have helped significantly.

Let's take another angle...what if it was AC who lost it on the descent yesterday instead of Jens?

in the end contador realized the only things he could trust are his legs.

Well, if he doesn't have a brain, I guess you're right. I mean it's really TdF 101. With a big lead, cover any big moves, conserve your energy by letting OTHERS do the work and celebrate in Paris. What part of that doesn't he understand?

Look, none of this is an issue if Kloden and Lance don't get dropped on the climb, again. Lance early on, Kloden later. Sure AC attacked, but Kloden just fell apart. And this was after he told AC that he was okay. Kloden couldn't even hold it together on the decent. Lance and Nibali passed him up. Lance and Kloden are trying to lay their shortcoming on Contador. The fact is, they aren't riding better than the Schleck boys.

The three strongest riders are sitting 1,2,3. Astana can try an tactically get another guy or two up there. But in the end, they have to be strong enough to do it.

Ed, I really think you are missing the boat with the whole AC/JB/Astana thing. The kid has not gotten a raw deal from Astana...in fact they have helped his career in a way that probably no other team could have. JB saw that he was a talented guy, recruited him and threw the team behind him to win the TdF in 2007. He got screwed in '08 by Vino more than anyone as it was his actions that caused Astana to be excluded from the tour. So...he goes and wins the Giro & the Vuelta with the help of a very strong squad. And after all of that, all he seems to do is whine. Do you remember last year how he moaned about how close Levi finished to him the Vuelta? He basically said that he got no support from the team. I found that to be insulting as Levi never attacked/tried to challenge AC, he was simply there for him. It's not like that was the first team to place 1/2 in a grand tour.

Maybe AC would have won three grand tours on any team but maybe being on Discovery & Astana has as much to do with his success as his riding ability. Ask Cadel Evans if he thinks the strength of a team makes a difference.

What's really wrong with a team saying that they will determine and support the strongest rider? CV was supposed to be the leader of Garmin but is now riding in support of Wiggins. He didn't get all butt-hurt and go whining to the press about it. What have LA or JB done to hinder AC from winning the tour. I'm sure you're going to argue that they have done a lot but if you are really fair, you'll see that they have helped significantly.

Let's take another angle...what if it was AC who lost it on the descent yesterday instead of Jens?

the strongest rider is contador, who won three GTs in a row. lance can't win the tour. the last old guy to win the tour was 36 and that was almost 100 years ago! lance is nearly 38 and hadn't raced for 3.5 years. strongest rider is pretty obvious here.

if JB had thrown his undivided support behind AC maybe things would be different now. instead he has created a rift on the team and contador is "doing his own thing".

duplicity is now being rewarded with karmic payback, and frankly i'm digging the hell out of it :thumb:.

ed rader

ed rader

and clearly what has JB done to earn AC's trust?

You mean besides recruit him and help him to become a multiple grand tour winner?


"no gifts."

Except for the one he gave to Frank Schleck at the end of today's stage...right?

Well, if he doesn't have a brain, I guess you're right. I mean it's really TdF 101. With a big lead, cover any big moves, conserve your energy by letting OTHERS do the work and celebrate in Paris. What part of that doesn't he understand?

take a look at the overall standings after yesterday and then after today. i'd say contador understood exactly what he needed to do. maybe when JB and lance form their own team they can get a GC guy who'll ride for his domestiques.

good luck with that one :thumb:.

ed rader

Except for the one he gave to Frank Schleck at the end of today's stage...right?

And Andy. Great post!

Btw, Frank Schleck was terrific today. I must admit that before the tour I was buying into Andy passing him by decisively and obviously that hasn't happened. Frank is a warrior.

the strongest rider is contador, who won three GTs in a row. lance can't win the tour. the last old guy to win the tour was 36 and that was almost 100 years ago! lance is nearly 38 and hadn't raced for 3.5 years. strongest rider is pretty obvious here.

if JB had thrown his undivided support behind AC maybe things would be different now. instead he has created a rift on the team and contador is "doing his own thing".

duplicity is now being rewarded with karmic payback, and frankly i'm digging the hell out of it :thumb:.

ed rader

ed rader

The strongest rider gets proven on the road...again, see the CV/BW example. So you're saying that if things happened differently, AC would have the tour wrapped up barring a disaster? Oh...wait...that's how it is now. I personally think that the way things played out was smart because the other GC contenders were kept guessing and needed to watch multiple guys within Astana. The psychological factor is big in a three week grand tour.

You want to talk karma? I think if AC turns his back on a team and DS who helped him win four grand tours it won't be long before he starts whining about his weak team that can't support him. He has a ton of wheels to follow and save his legs right now. The grass is not always greener.

You mean besides recruit him and help him to become a multiple grand tour winner?





my bad, i should have added, what has JB done to earn AC's trust lately?

You mean besides recruit him and help him to become a multiple grand tour winner?



Except for the one he gave to Frank Schleck at the end of today's stage...right?

like i said earlier.....time to start looking forward :).

ed rader

Perhaps Johan was trying to protect the Armstrong brand in preparation for next year?

This is my guess. This whole time it seems like JB is annoyed that there is a rider as strong as Contador out there to rain on LA's parade, and then to have him on his own team no less! He's basically directing as if he already has next years team and AC is just an afterthought.

If he can get Armstrong or even Kloden a podium finish it will be a lot easier getting sponsors and support riders than if they end up off it. In the end I think there's a good, not great, chance they sweep anyway.

I just get the feeling watching him that Contador is kind of hot headed and impetuous. That's not entirely bad - it's led to a number of stunning victories for him. When he feels good, he just goes.

At his age, with his legs - he can most certainly get away with it. As he gets older, he'll need to get smarter about when he expends energy and do a better job of using his teammates. I don't think he's some kind of "OMG BAD TEAMMATE" ... I just think he's like every other youngster in every other sport - a bit hot headed and rash at times. And for the inevitable Lance comparison, look at Lance at 23-24 or whatnot ... he was incredibly hot headed and made poor tactical decisions all the time.

It was a mistake by Contador today. Not a big one, not a terrible one - but it was a mistake. It'll also be one he won't make later on in his career.

I was thinking the exact same thing - Lance was the same way when he was young: all brash, writing checks his body could still cash. Later on, AC will have to use his head more, as LA did over the years, but AC has time to get more savvy. In the meantime, no one can touch him on climbs...

but you're forgetting that Kloden was/is a threat to them as well and I'm sure as soon as they realized he was suffering, they would have gone knowing that they wouldn't shed contador but at least would have lost Kloden.

That's right. The Schlecks would have upped the pace to crack Kloden. Not only is Contador not their only enemy, but by being the toughest of them to crack, they've gotta focus on others. Yet Contador did not have to go just then. It was an error. He knew it too, but it was too late. Wiggins was being handled fine.

And I'm no fan of Lance. He's made some d**k moves and comments since his return, but today he rode smartly and pretty heroically.

As I was following via Velonews Live, Pelkey mentionned that not far from the finish line Contador patted Frank Schleck on the back.
Did anyone see this?

You want to talk karma? I think if AC turns his back on a team and DS who helped him win four grand tours it won't be long before he starts whining about his weak team that can't support him. He has a ton of wheels to follow and save his legs right now. The grass is not always greener.

Well, since JB and Lance announced this week that they're outty and didn't mention AC was coming, I think its fair to say that the team kinda screwed him first.

Right now, Bruyneel is trying to set up Armstrong for a high finish so they can bring in more sponsorship money next year and conversely, AC is trying to assert himself as much as possible to set himself up for a big phat contract. Such is business.

This is my guess. This whole time it seems like JB is annoyed that there is a rider as strong as Contador out there to rain on LA's parade, and then to have him on his own team no less! He's basically directing as if he already has next years team and AC is just an afterthought.

If he can get Armstrong or even Kloden a podium finish it will be a lot easier getting sponsors and support riders than if they end up off it. In the end I think there's a good, not great, chance they sweep anyway.

hah, this one popped up just as I was writing my response.

I agree 100%.

This is my guess. This whole time it seems like JB is annoyed that there is a rider as strong as Contador out there to rain on LA's parade, and then to have him on his own team no less! He's basically directing as if he already has next years team and AC is just an afterthought.

If he can get Armstrong or even Kloden a podium finish it will be a lot easier getting sponsors and support riders than if they end up off it. In the end I think there's a good, not great, chance they sweep anyway.

Yea, if they don't sweep, it's going to be nearly impossible to get sponsors with LA, Levi and Kloden on your team. :rolleyes:

hah, this one popped up just as I was writing my response.

I agree 100%.

So AC has probably asked Kloden if he would like to ride with him on his new team and the response was probably "Lance asked me first".

The next day Kloden gets dropped on Colombière.

You have to take Bruyneel's words with a grain of salt. These statement pairs are just not consistent. But he makes them in the course of 2 minute interviews:

JB: There was no reason for Garmin to keep George out of yellow.
JB: Tactically, we wanted George in yellow, so that Columbia would help in tomorrows stage.
Problem: If it was good for you for GH to be in yellow, then it was bad for your GC competitors (Garmin).

JB: The Schleck brothers would go full gas to the finish.
JB: We could have been 1,2,3 if AC had not made his move.
Problem: You say that the Schleck brothers would have gone full gas to the finish even if AC did not make a move - yet somehow, Armstrong would have been able to finish ahead of them in the overall. So, assuming that the AC move did not slow down LA, it somehow made the Schlecks 1.5 minutes faster.

JB: AC did not need to go.
JB: If we want everything, we could end up with nothing.
Problem: If he did not need to go, then you are implying that victory over Wiggins is in the bag. But somehow he concedes that not gaining time one Wiggins could make them end up with nothing.

I know that JB is smart and gets this. He's just blowing smoke to the media.

That's right. The Schlecks would have upped the pace to crack Kloden. Not only is Contador not their only enemy, but by being the toughest of them to crack, they've gotta focus on others. Yet Contador did not have to go just then. It was an error. He knew it too, but it was too late. Wiggins was being handled fine.

Hmmmm, that's not how I saw it or how Contador saw it. At that point, the Schlecks had given up on any attacks. Sure there are a lot a 'would of, could of' scenarios but Andy didn't go, did he?

I'm not going to kill Contador over this but he's a competitor. He looked at the Schlecks and (basically) said, now it's your turn to cover ... got anything left?' Problem was they did and it was his teammate that didn't. Bonehead move yes, but as others have said, a young gun error (ignoring the 'as the world turns soap-opera' followers on this forum).

You have to take Bruyneel's words with a grain of salt. These statement pairs are just not consistent. But he makes them in the course of 2 minute interviews:

YB: There was no reason for Garmin to keep George out of yellow.
YB: Tactically, we wanted George in yellow, so that Columbia would help in tomorrows stage.
Problem: If it was good for you for GH to be in yellow, then it was bad for your GC competitors (Garmin).

YB: The Schleck brothers would go full gas to the finish.
YB: We could have been 1,2,3 if AC had not made his move.
Problem: You say that the Schleck brothers would have gone full gas to the finish even if AC did not make a move - yet somehow, Armstrong would have been able to finish ahead of them in the overall. So, assuming that the AC move did not slow down LA, it somehow made the Schlecks 1.5 minutes faster.

YB: AC did not need to go.
YB: If we want everything, we could end up with nothing.
Problem: If he did not need to go, then you are implying that victory over Wiggins is in the bag. But somehow he concedes that not gaining time one Wiggins could make them end up with nothing.

I know that JB is smart and gets this. He's just blowing smoke to the media.

So George being in yellow would have been good for ...... JB!
Why?
George will be riding with LA next year.

...Yet Contador did not have to go just then. It was an error. He knew it too, but it was too late. Wiggins was being handled fine.

And I'm no fan of Lance. He's made some d**k moves and comments since his return, but today he rode smartly and pretty heroically.

Yes, Lance and Andreas rode a great ride. Contador is a great stage racer but he isn't the sharpest crayon in the box with respect to race tactics. Here's another perspective:

Even Kim Anderson, director of the Schleck brothers on Saxo Bank, admitted his surprise. "Our plan was to attack early and break free with Contador," he said. "But our plan was definitely not to have Kloden get dropped by his own teammate."

Yea, if they don't sweep, it's going to be nearly impossible to get sponsors with LA, Levi and Kloden on your team. :rolleyes:

You do know that higher results = more leverage = potentially more money from sponsors, right?

As I was following via Velonews Live, Pelkey mentionned that not far from the finish line Contador patted Frank Schleck on the back.
Did anyone see this?

he was thanking frank for being a better team mate than lance :roflmao2:.

ed rader

Well I think AC needs to suck it up and stick with JB. I don't see a team for AC. Saxo doesn't need him. I do hear Lotto is looking. If he teams up with Valverde I think he will find himself in a similar situation. Liquigas may be a good match. I doubt if Columbia or Garmin are the answer although they are both strong. Rabo? Bad TTT.

Really AC can win with a marginal team, but TTT are going to make his margin of error much slimmer.

Richard

There's certainly no shortage of intrigue with this year's tour (helped by all the "who's riding for who/what/when" soap opera on the side).

The Schlecks rode a helluva a stage today (maybe inspired, instead of demoralized, by Jens' crash?). Kudos to them and Saxo.

Vandevelde, for someone who gave up his own GC aspirations to support Wiggins, has done pretty well, moving UP the standings since he said he'd ride for Bradley.

I'm bummed I'm on the road and wasn't able to watch much of today's stage (and none of the critical stuff late); will have to watch tomorrow's ITT in the evening, as well.

Since AC laid down the law Lance has been a good teammate. I suspect it was hard for him to sit on Wiggin's wheel today, but he did it. Same thing yesterday. I don't expect Lance to be teamy on Stage 20.

Richard


he was thanking frank for being a better team mate than lance :roflmao2:.

ed rader

Well I think AC needs to suck it up and stick with JB. I don't see a team for AC. Saxo doesn't need him. I do hear Lotto is looking. If he teams up with Valverde I think he will find himself in a similar situation. Liquigas may be a good match. I doubt if Columbia or Garmin are the answer although they are both strong. Rabo? Bad TTT.

Really AC can win with a marginal team, but TTT are going to make his margin of error much slimmer.

Richard

believe me, any team would take contador if they can get him.

ed rader

Since AC laid down the law Lance has been a good teammate. I suspect it was hard for him to sit on Wiggin's wheel today, but he did it. Same thing yesterday. I don't expect Lance to be teamy on Stage 20.

Richard

have you seen lance's comments and his tweets? on the road he's being a good team mate because he has no choice but behind the scenes he's still sewing the seeds of discord.

lance reminds me alot of terrel owens (TO).

ed rader

Since AC laid down the law Lance has been a good teammate. I suspect it was hard for him to sit on Wiggin's wheel today, but he did it. Same thing yesterday. I don't expect Lance to be teamy on Stage 20.

Richard

He was forced to stay with Wiggins because he couldn't accelerate as the others could. The only time he could get seperation was on the steeper grades, said so himself.

believe me, any team would take contador if they can get him.

But that doesn't mean he'll be a GT favorite. If he wasn't on Discovery/Astana, do you think he'd have 3 GT wins? ACs on ... Skil-Shimano, Milram, C d'E, Cofidis, FdJ, Euskatel ... do you think he's the same GT favorite he is now? There's only a few teams he could go to where he'd be the same unquestioned #1 favorite because of his talents and his team's talents.

Again, I repeat....None of this is an issue if Kloden and Lance don't get dropped on the climb, again. Lance early on, Kloden later. Sure AC attacked, but Kloden just fell apart. And this was after he told AC that he was okay. Kloden couldn't even hold it together on the decent. Lance and Nibali passed him up. Lance and Kloden are trying to lay their shortcoming on Contador. The fact is, they aren't riding better than the Schleck boys.

The three strongest riders are sitting 1,2,3. Astana can try and tactically get another guy or two up there. But in the end, they have to be strong enough to do it.

Right now, Lance and Kloden are strong enough to be riding in the podium positions. Its pretty obvious that the strongest riders are Contador and the Schlecks. Maybe that will change tomorrow or maybe it will change after Mt. Ventoux. You can talk about team tactics all you want. The team can only do so much. In the end, the rider has to be strong enough to gain the position and to hold the position.

Just like he did at Arcalis and Verbier, Contador is riding his own race. "

This sums it up right here. Astana is over as a team - JB and Lance are on to another team. AC is looking out for #1. JB would like a sweep of 1,2,3 and have Lance in the podium to set up the next team and sponsors.

Lance believes with more training he can beat AC next year. So AC is out and he knows this.

This thread!!
http://forum.ampprod.com/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

This thread!!
http://forum.ampprod.com/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

true that :thumb:.

i'm outta here....see you guys manana!

ed rader