"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Racing: an honorable sporting event, or a back-alley knife fight?

Events of the weekend have prompted discussion about the "right" way to view a race.

To wit: are there more honorable ways to win than others? Or is it simply, first wheel across the line and as long as you stay within the rules, a win is a win?

Example: is a rider who sits in and sprints, less of a deserving winner than one who attacks and attacks and bridges and chases then wins? Or is the concept of "deserving" entirely irrelevant?

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honorable isn't the word i would chose. elegant, courageous, daring, classy... are more apt.

I want to know what all this drama in the Cat4 race is all about (Andy's TXBRA) comments. What happened once I was shown the back door?

Or is the concept of "deserving" entirely irrelevant?

Its irrelevant in my option. I dont think anyone in the field really cares if a guy that pulls the whole race deserves to win. Yeah it would be nice to see him win cause he did a lot of the work up front, but he decided to do that, and its not going to stop anyone else in the field from chasing him on the final sprint. It was his decision to do the work and he should know theres someone right on his wheel along for the ride. Its a race, first one that cross's the lines within the rules wins.

honorable isn't the word i would chose. elegant, courageous, daring, classy... are more apt.

Cheeky.... you left out cheeky

Where I'm from if you pull the whole way and the lose you're called stupid.

Where I'm from if you pull the whole way and the lose you're called stupid.

some would say " stoopid" too.

Where I'm from if you pull the whole way and the lose you're called stupid.

or sled dog....Mush, Doggie!Mush!!!!

I want to know what all this drama in the Cat4 race is all about (Andy's TXBRA) comments. What happened once I was shown the back door?

yeah I dunno.. it seemed like a routine sprint to me. all I can think was, there was one guy who got chopped a bit, and I said a bad word after I got passed at the line.

the top 4 guys were pretty close, maybe he got excited about that.

Events of the weekend have prompted discussion about the "right" way to view a race.

To wit: are there more honorable ways to win than others? Or is it simply, first wheel across the line and as long as you stay within the rules, a win is a win?

Example: is a rider who sits in and sprints, less of a deserving winner than one who attacks and attacks and bridges and chases then wins? Or is the concept of "deserving" entirely irrelevant?

No, there are not more honorable ways to win, at least within major limits. I really don't like the idea because it's pretty much used to intentionally devalue the efforts and skills of certain kinds of riders. What makes cycling so great is that there are so many different ways to win a race - TT types who call sprinters and sprinting tactics dishonorable are, IMO, selfish and lacking in appreciation for the subtleties and nuance of the sport. If cycling were about brute strength, it would be boring and there would be a lot fewer competitors. Winning solo requires enormous strength, winning from a break requires strength and the savvy to recognize your strengths and how to use them against your breakaway companions, winning from a field sprint requires clever tactics, good positioning, a good turn of speed and near-perfect timing. These are all worthy ways to win.

By the way, this goes both ways - sprinters who think that breakaways and riders who have the strength to win solo shouldn't be allowed are jerks. But how often does this happen? Mostly, the anger seems to come from riders who think that having a bigger aerobic engine and working like a dog entitles them to a win or high placing. But cycling is beautiful because you are not entitled to anything. You win by crossing the line first. If you can't do that, then that's it. That's cycling. Hey, maybe I'm biased - I'm a criterium and circuit racer by disposition - but I recognize that bias.

And for what it's worth, that doesn't mean that I support boring races. Races won in field sprints or from breaks can both be incredibly boring, or they can be active and exciting, depending upon how they are raced, what tactics are used, etc. I would rather my races be exciting, but when you come right down to it, that's secondary. People want to win, and they're going to do whatever they think gives them the best chance of winning. They might guess wrong, especially if they are inexperienced, but that's how it goes.

bike racing does not care who took second

is it dishonorable to drop heavy guys on hills because they have a higher FTP? :P

bike racing is an interesting sport. while maybe no one cares who took 2nd, I can think of several examples of races where no one can remember (interpret to no one cares) who won, but everyone remembers who was off the front for a big % of the race or who "turned the screws" and animiated the race.

bike racing does not care who took second

I think it does for some.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races08/tdf08/retro68-poulidor.jpg

is it dishonorable to drop heavy guys on hills because they have a higher FTP? :P

very dishonorable.

knife fight for me, unless its with teammates

I think it does for some.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races08/tdf08/retro68-poulidor.jpg


Poulidor, the ultimate "first loser".
At least he won on occasion too.
Nice pic.

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Why do you hate horses?

yeah I dunno.. it seemed like a routine sprint to me. all I can think was, there was one guy who got chopped a bit, and I said a bad word after I got passed at the line.

the top 4 guys were pretty close, maybe he got excited about that.

I think it was more about the conditions and how they really fought it out till the end...at leat that's what I took away from Andy's comments...

Meh, it's just drama.

If you win without cheating, you won. One method is tactically superior, the other is brute strength.

whatever. while the following is more about mortals, such as ourselves, it pretty much covers my opinion about racers in general:

i will always have more respect for the racer who got away in a break and won.

i will never have respect for the anonymous racers, who you never see on the front until the final 200 meters.

whatever. while the following is more about mortals, such as ourselves, it pretty much covers my opinion about racers in general:

i will always have more respect for the racer who got away in a break and won.

i will never have respect for the anonymous racers, who you never see on the front until the final 200 meters.

Even if the guy who won, in the break, was never "on the front until the final 200 meters"?

Even if the guy who won, in the break, was never "on the front until the final 200 meters"?
yes.

i will never have respect for the anonymous racers, who you never see on the front until the final 200 meters.

Aaahhh, the ol' Botto/Cavendish uppercut.

I've got no issue with anyone that can win the field sprint, that sat in all day.
I've got issues with all those guys that follow incessantly hoping for a top10 in a field sprint.
It's like, who cares.

who cares

race to have fun...attack, sit in for a go at the sprint win, just RACE, put it out there and give those around you the respect you want in return

if you want a sport where winning is 100% dependant on whoever is "the most fit" for the race then take up running

edit: i don't really even care about the guys who sit in hoping for a top ten...but i do have disdain for lifetime peloton dogs who snicker at attackers who get blown out the back...unless a paycheck is involved those ******* are the scum of the cycling world

http://blogs.venturacountystar.com/dennert/anchorman-1.jpg
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Poulidor wore his malediction like a virtual coat of shining armor.

I've got issues with all those guys that follow incessantly hoping for a top10 in a field sprint.
It's like, who cares.


The District Rep, just sayin.

who cares

most of us race for fun...

if fun for you is attacking the hell out of a peloton then by all means go for it, hopefully you will get a break. personally i love to attack, and will give props to anyone who held a nice long one even if they get blown out the back of the peloton at the end

if fun for someone else is sitting in / reeling in the break and waiting for the all-balls-out sprint then hoorah. sprinting takes power, balls and tactics.

if you want a sport where winning is 100% dependant on whoever is "the most fit" for the race then take up running

you know, i had some cu__ say the same thing to me tonight. while i can agree with it in principle - i.e. there's no need to do anything aggressive/dangerous - the fact remains that we still race.

you want fun? ride a grandfondo.

i've got no issue with anyone that can win the field sprint, that sat in all day.
I've got issues with all those guys that follow incessantly hoping for a top10 in a field sprint.
It's like, who cares.

+1

whatever. while the following is more about mortals, such as ourselves, it pretty much covers my opinion about racers in general:

i will always have more respect for the racer who got away in a break and won.

i will never have respect for the anonymous racers, who you never see on the front until the final 200 meters.

You have not read Sun Tzu.

"All warfare is based on deception."

"He who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven."

You have not read Sun Tzu.

"All warfare is based on deception."

"He who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven."

correct.

The District Rep, just sayin.

I'll let Timmo know you said that.
We've been best buds for many years and in that time I have harassed his tactics incessantly. :D
Good on calling him out publicly.

Bunch sprint... who cares?
Breakaway and you show your ass for the first time in xx miles... uh, no.

you know, i had some cu__ say the same thing to me tonight. while i can agree with it in principle - i.e. there's no need to do anything aggressive/dangerous - the fact remains that we still race.

you want fun? ride a grandfondo.

if you don't race for fun or a paycheck, then what?

i do not advocate needless risk, but unfortunately it's a reality of amateur racing...i don't like it, and would love to see more restraint; but i accept it...if you can't accept that exessive machismo bs then racing isn't for you

A win is a win in my book.

I drink your milkshake! I drink it up!

I'll let Timmo know you said that.
We've been best buds for many years and in that time I have harassed his tactics incessantly. :D
Good on calling him out publicly.


No, I meant it the opposite way. I want to sit in to get top tens to get an upgrade.

The reflection is on my racing tactics not Tim's

if you don't race for fun or a paycheck, then what?

i do not advocate needless risk, but unfortunately it's a reality of amateur racing...i don't like it, and would love to see more restraint; but i accept it...if you can't accept that exessive machismo bs then racing isn't for you

you don't get it.

winning after being on the front/off the front is more glorious than just winning. It's not machismo, its a degree of class or style. People often mention how "off" it would be if the overall winner of the Tour did not win a single stage. I agree.

I will still try to clean your plate before I start on my own. There are no pundits dissecting my races and after only a grand total of 24 races I've got no reputation to speak of or be concerned about. When I get to the 3s, that will be a different story as that category will probably be my future retirement home and I will have the time to build a reputation.

When I get to the 3s, that will be a different story as that category will probably be my future retirement home and I will have the time to build a reputation.

Settling for being a career 3 before you even get there?
What would your wife/kids/employer/mama think?


Aim super-duper-extra high and fail. It's the American way.

A win is a win in my book.

Agreed. Generally speaking, the course will dictate a good portion of the tactics.

I race a lot of crits. Getting away on a flat crit where anyone can see you is damn near impossible. You can try it all you want, but it isn't going to do much for you. You'll get reeled in after a couple laps. If the break actually sticks, it will be by the skin on it's teeth and be damned impressive to watch.

Having said that, I get on the front and into breaks, especially in races that I'm not trying to do well in personally (when I'm riding for a teammate). For one, it's more interesting than sitting in the pack saving matches. Second, it helps the teammate by making others get on the front and do work. Third it's safer than playing 'cover your front tire' for 45 minutes.

In the end, though, 99% of my races come down to a group sprint. If you're gonna have a chance to place well, or win, you need to be able to hop out of the saddle and crank on it for the last 30 seconds.

Agreed. Generally speaking, the course will dictate a good portion of the tactics.

I race a lot of crits. Getting away on a flat crit where anyone can see you is damn near impossible. You can try it all you want, but it isn't going to do much for you. You'll get reeled in after a couple laps. If the break actually sticks, it will be by the skin on it's teeth and be damned impressive to watch.

Having said that, I get on the front and into breaks, especially in races that I'm not trying to do well in personally (when I'm riding for a teammate). For one, it's more interesting than sitting in the pack saving matches. Second, it helps the teammate by making others get on the front and do work. Third it's safer than playing 'cover your front tire' for 45 minutes.

In the end, though, 99% of my races come down to a group sprint. If you're gonna have a chance to place well, or win, you need to be able to hop out of the saddle and crank on it for the last 30 seconds.

it's possible. it takes persistence, committment, power, and willingness to fail.

was talking this over w/ my best bud, who has won a lot of races, and he said, "ya know, most of the races I won, were solo" and I had to think for a minute to realize he's right, in his case.

he was really good at the 5 laps to go sneak away move, and had the legs to hold it while the sprinters looked at each other.

Agreed. Generally speaking, the course will dictate a good portion of the tactics.

I race a lot of crits. Getting away on a flat crit where anyone can see you is damn near impossible. You can try it all you want, but it isn't going to do much for you. You'll get reeled in after a couple laps. If the break actually sticks, it will be by the skin on it's teeth and be damned impressive to watch.

Shrug. We damned nearly lapped the field on Sunday. I think every crit I've raced this season save one has been won from a break.

Can't it be an honorable back-alley knife fight?

From The Rider by Tim Krabbe'

Tour de France 1977
"During the decisive stage, Van Impe made his escape and, at a given point, had such a huge lead that it seemed the tour was in his pocket.

"Behind him three riders had come together: Thevenet (in the yellow jersey), Kuiper and Zoetemelk, the only other riders who still had a chance.

"If Thevenet had done what his team manager advised him to do, namely allow the two Dutchmen to hang themselves with their own rope, he would have hanged with them and all three would have lost the Tour.

"But Thevenet shouldered the blackmailing of the yellow jersey and of his ambition, and pulled the lead for the others. As was to be expected, Zoetemelk and Kuiper profited from this by escaping on the last mountain. Zoetemelk cracked, but Kuiper passed Van Impe who was badly cracked as well, and won the stage, but not the yellow jersey; in a fantastic comeback, during which he forced things harder than he had ever forced them in his career, Thevenet was able to keep the damage precisely within bounds and kept the yellow jersey all the way to Paris.

"No matter how Kuiper had advanced his chances of winning the Tour by hanging on to Thevenet's wheel, he had destroyed every chance of winning it grandly.

"Thevenet won it grandly."

Shrug. We damned nearly lapped the field on Sunday. I think every crit I've raced this season save one has been won from a break.

I saw the pics. Looked like a well deserved win. Was it city streets or a more open business park type course? The places where I've seen breaks happen more often are in city street races that are more technical and have buildings to hide behind, which I why I said that the course will often dictate the tactics. Of course, if there is a big climb, then that will also be a ripe area for a break to happen.

I have just experienced fewer break wins in wide open crits where everyone can always see everyone. The 'out of sight, out of mind' thing really does seem to be a factor.

Harlem. About as city as it gets. But I have 35 races this year, with 2/3 of them being crits in a variety of course and all but one have finished in a break. Generally speaking if you speak in generalizations you're going to be wrong.