Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - Miyata 1000

I would like to know how much my bicycle is worth. It is a 1988 Miyata 1000. Ridden about 5 times and lived in storage since 1990. All original as purchased from the store: no new/reburbished/replacement parts. Small tear in foam on one handle bar ... and some dust build up. It is a men's frame, 54cm, black. Wheel size 700c.
Here is some more info from the 1988 Miyata catalog
> an image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_whtVpXkKwlQ/R1w7FjQppuI/AAAAAAAAAXU/xGRXA-oRS5g/s1600-h/img168.jpg
> specs
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_whtVpXkKwlQ/R1w63TQpptI/AAAAAAAAAXM/z-jdNWMCSH8/s1600-h/img169.jpg
Thank you.

Actual pictures are very helpful but......

I'll jump in and say $500 plus.....

Agree. 500 bucks or possibly more to the right buyer. Miyata 1000's got really popular after the late Sheldon Brown touted them as the best production touring bike of its time.

Going rates here (and I am a cheap bas%^&$) are $250-$600 depending on the condition. I have been looking for one in a 58cm or bigger.

I would like something like that, but this one is in too good of shape.

I would like something like that, but this one is in too good of shape.

The better shape a bike is the better the buy!!


Think we can get this Miyata 1000 thread to blow up like the last one? That was almost epic.....

+1 You aren't from Portland, OR by chance??

Jim.
I just want a frame.
I have a '87 Miyata Triton, in 57cm, factory called it a 23", really 22 1/2" with 27" wheels. The frame is great, but just a tad too tall for me.
This bike size would be good, I'm just on a tighter budget. Maybe I can trade frames with someone.

Jim.
I just want a frame.
I have a '87 Miyata Triton, in 57cm, factory called it a 23", really 22 1/2" with 27" wheels. The frame is great, but just a tad too tall for me.
This bike size would be good, I'm just on a tighter budget. Maybe I can trade frames with someone.

Stay on the lookout...when you least expect it bikes/frames show up.

Jim.
I just want a frame.
I have a '87 Miyata Triton, in 57cm, factory called it a 23", really 22 1/2" with 27" wheels. The frame is great, but just a tad too tall for me.
This bike size would be good, I'm just on a tighter budget. Maybe I can trade frames with someone.

Miyata frames tend to run on the small size. I have a 23 inch myself, it measures 22 inches center to center.

Your best bet is to just find a 21 inch bike that fits you well, one that measures a true 21 inch center to center. If you like your components better, just to a swap between the two bikes. Almost all the vintage bikes I find are either 21 inch or 23 inch size. So you should be able to find one pretty quickly.

Actual pictures are very helpful but......

I'll jump in and say $500 plus.....
There are groups of cyclists that ride by my home on the weekend. One stopped when he saw the bike and offered to pay $200.00 on the spot. He said that was the best offer I was going to receive. I said -- it is already sold to me, but thanks.

+1 You aren't from Portland, OR by chance??
I'm near Toronto, Ontario. Canada.

Near Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Yeah, 200.00 is really low. Post up some pictures of the actual bike to get a better estimate.

As requested, here are some pictures.

It's a great bike worth far more than $200, or even 2X $200.

Michael

Looks like $600+ to me. Nice bike, highly sought after.

Looks very similar to my 86-87 Specialized Expedition. I believe both frames are Ishiwata 022. The Exp. came with Suntour Montech derails, but according to an article by S. Brown, the Suntour rear D had a bad habit of major failure and I've noticed that many 80's bikes with Suntour Ds often had the rear D upgraded. Saw the pic of the Shimano Deore, don't know if that maybe a similar upgrade for those who demand originality. I contacted a guy in the CHicago area who was asking a firm $800 for his 84 Expedition and was receiving serious inquiries. I believe it was Sheldon Brown who wrote that the top 3 off-the-shelf touring bikes of all times were the Trek 520, the Expedition, and the Miyata 1000. I don't know about the market inwhich you live, but in the major cities along the West Coast I wouldn't be suprised for it to sell between $600-800.

Looks very similar to my 86-87 Specialized Expedition. I believe both frames are Ishiwata 022. The Exp. came with Suntour Montech derails, but according to an article by S. Brown, the Suntour rear D had a bad habit of major failure and I've noticed that many 80's bikes with Suntour Ds often had the rear D upgraded. Saw the pic of the Shimano Deore, don't know if that maybe a similar upgrade for those who demand originality. I contacted a guy in the CHicago area who was asking a firm $800 for his 84 Expedition and was receiving serious inquiries. I believe it was Sheldon Brown who wrote that the top 3 off-the-shelf touring bikes of all times were the Trek 520, the Expedition, and the Miyata 1000. I don't know about the market inwhich you live, but in the major cities along the West Coast I wouldn't be suprised for it to sell between $600-800.

Not even close. Miyata uses their own proprietary triple butted chromoly tubing which is, without a doubt, one of the finest tubes ever produced.

The 1000 model has always been the finest touring bike ever made and its better than most custom made rigs for a variety of reasons. Custom rigs dont offer any features that Miyata didnt.

"Not even close"? Please explain. And possibly more than what's readily available in the literature.

I'm not mounting a challenge to your statement but I am seriously interested in details of your experience. You seem to know well the Miyata 1000 vs other production touring bikes.

I think the Fuji Touring Series from the mid 80s is top tier, especially the Touring Series IV & V. Care to make a comparative statement about the Fujis?

Full disclosure: I own a quad butted Series V, and I can only imagine that Sheldon didn't know the full spectrum of touring bikes when he made his declaration regarding the "best". I don't see any shortcomings in the Fuji when compared to ANY other bike of its ilk, including the 1000, triple butted tubing notwithstanding.

I do challenge the standing idea that the 1000 stands head and shoulders above ALL others.

Looking forward to the schooling. ;-)

Cheers,

Julian




Not even close. Miyata uses their own proprietary triple butted chromoly tubing which is, without a doubt, one of the finest tubes ever produced.

The 1000 model has always been the finest touring bike ever made and its better than most custom made rigs for a variety of reasons. Custom rigs dont offer any features that Miyata didnt.

There are groups of cyclists that ride by my home on the weekend. One stopped when he saw the bike and offered to pay $200.00 on the spot. He said that was the best offer I was going to receive. I said -- it is already sold to me, but thanks.
$200 would be taking advantage of you.

In this market, now that I've seen pics, I'm thinking $700 +/- $50.
Tourers are big here; folks go to the Outer Banks on our nice roads (no snow). The ascending pecking order here is:

4) Trek 520, which folks maintain at considerable expense, and won't let go of. $250-$400 even in rough shape.
3) Miyata Two Ten, etc touring models, below the 1000. $300-$400 but need to be a little cleaner.
2) Specialized Expedition. Components matter, but $350 starts for a rough one, up to $700 clean with Deore, which is popular.
1) The Miyata 1000. Cult following, they start at $500 and will easily go to $800 set up right, more with Suntour bar end shifters.

Other than the above, it's Rivendell or Surly depending on your bank account or need to be seen.

I've not seen Julian's Fuji around here. I've not really seen any steel Fuji's here, of any kind, other than newer Finests or Team Carbons, etc. Julian knows his Fuji bikes, and his builds are immaculate, so if he says the Fuji is up there, I'd follow that.

"Not even close"? Please explain. And possibly more than what's readily available in the literature.

I'm not mounting a challenge to your statement but I am seriously interested in details of your experience. You seem to know well the Miyata 1000 vs other production touring bikes.

I think the Fuji Touring Series from the mid 80s is top tier, especially the Touring Series IV & V. Care to make a comparative statement about the Fujis?

Full disclosure: I own a quad butted Series V, and I can only imagine that Sheldon didn't know the full spectrum of touring bikes when he made his declaration regarding the "best". I don't see any shortcomings in the Fuji when compared to ANY other bike of its ilk, including the 1000, triple butted tubing notwithstanding.

I do challenge the standing idea that the 1000 stands head and shoulders above ALL others.

Looking forward to the schooling. ;-)

Cheers,

Julian


In general tubesets are made in 1 length with the length of the thinner middle section optimized for ~23" frames (could be 21") which happen to be the most popular size frames. If a small frame is built the butts are cut off, you end up with little short butted ends and mostly the thinner middle section for the length of the tube. The opposite holds true for larger frames, the butted section to thinner section ratio is off because as mentioned earlier the ration is optimized for middle sized frames.

Miyata designed and manufactured their own frame tubes. Each frame size received its own specific tube, a 50cm didnt didnt get a cut down 58 tube and a 60 didnt get 58 tubes with long butted ends. Miyata designed the butt lengths for each frame size and they cut the splines to a specific length for each frame size to optimize the ride ride quality and characteristics of each frame size. No other company did this. Different frame sizes get different geometry so it only makes sense that they get different tubes. Is Ishiwata 022 good tubing? Yes, but it was available in 1 specification optimized for 1 frame size.

A Splined Trible Butted tube for a 714 is different than a Splined Triple Butted tube for a 914 which is different than a Splined Triple Butted tube for a 1000.

Miyata also finished their bikes better than everyone else. They used a 7 stage process that included washing in zinc phosphate for rust prevention and 6 layers of primer and paint including a clear coat.

The quality of Miyatas lug work and brazing is better than most custom European builders!!!

Are Trek 520's and Expeditions good bikes? Sure they are, but the Miyata 1000 is like a Lexus, Mercedes and BMW all rolled into 1.

Jim

I've been schooled. Good stuff though. Just to clarify, I looked up Sheldon Brown's quote and it is less definitive then I originally remembered. "The mid-80's Miyata 1000 was possibly the finest off-the-shelf bike available at the time."-S.B.

Appreciations.

Impressive stats and knowledge. I still don't see how this is evidence for the claim that the 1000 is the "best" or that another marque's design philosophy for their equivalent model of bike is necessarily inferior to the 1000.

That's the Miyata side of things. What's the other side of the story. I don't know. I'm hoping you do.

That's a pretty heady statement about the Miyata factory bikes lug work and brazing being better than "most" European custom builders. How is a claim like that meaningful in practical terms in making the case for the 1000?

Panasonic, Nishiki(Kawamura), Fuji and others made great counterparts to the 1000. Did they all have to knowingly content themselves with fighting it out for an also ran position? Was their technology "in general" inferior? Was there no "Lexus, Mercedes and BMW" quality left over for anyone else?

How does the best of the rest compare with the 1000?

I guess I'm just a contrarian in this matter of the 1000 being "best" and others "not even close". No doubt the 1000 is very fine. It deserves a lofty position.

Is it the best? Not just because Sheldon says so, when accurately quoted. And not, I would venture, to the folks who own other, different, well-chosen bikes of the time.

Best,

J




In general tubesets are made in 1 length with the length of the thinner middle section optimized for ~23" frames (could be 21") which happen to be the most popular size frames. If a small frame is built the butts are cut off, you end up with little short butted ends and mostly the thinner middle section for the length of the tube. The opposite holds true for larger frames, the butted section to thinner section ratio is off because as mentioned earlier the ration is optimized for middle sized frames.

Miyata designed and manufactured their own frame tubes. Each frame size received its own specific tube, a 50cm didnt didnt get a cut down 58 tube and a 60 didnt get 58 tubes with long butted ends. Miyata designed the butt lengths for each frame size and they cut the splines to a specific length for each frame size to optimize the ride ride quality and characteristics of each frame size. No other company did this. Different frame sizes get different geometry so it only makes sense that they get different tubes. Is Ishiwata 022 good tubing? Yes, but it was available in 1 specification optimized for 1 frame size.

A Splined Trible Butted tube for a 714 is different than a Splined Triple Butted tube for a 914 which is different than a Splined Triple Butted tube for a 1000.

Miyata also finished their bikes better than everyone else. They used a 7 stage process that included washing in zinc phosphate for rust prevention and 6 layers of primer and paint including a clear coat.

The quality of Miyatas lug work and brazing is better than most custom European builders!!!

Are Trek 520's and Expeditions good bikes? Sure they are, but the Miyata 1000 is like a Lexus, Mercedes and BMW all rolled into 1.

Jim

I owned a Univega Specialissima back in the day. It was my understanding at the time -- based on close study of the bikes when I was shopping -- and I have read here at BF that the Univega Specialissima is the same frame as the Miyata 1000.

I also believe that the Univega Gran Turismo is the same frame as a lesser Miyata (the 610?).

This has been discussed on prior BF Univega/Miyata threads...

For anyone shopping, the Univegas are typically available for less money than the Miyata.

Appreciations.

Impressive stats and knowledge. I still don't see how this is evidence for the claim that the 1000 is the "best" or that another marque's design philosophy for their equivalent model of bike is necessarily inferior to the 1000.

That's the Miyata side of things. What's the other side of the story. I don't know. I'm hoping you do.

That's a pretty heady statement about the Miyata factory bikes lug work and brazing being better than "most" European custom builders. How is a claim like that meaningful in practical terms in making the case for the 1000?

Panasonic, Nishiki(Kawamura), Fuji and others made great counterparts to the 1000. Did they all have to knowingly content themselves with fighting it out for an also ran position? Was their technology "in general" inferior? Was there no "Lexus, Mercedes and BMW" quality left over for anyone else?

How does the best of the rest compare with the 1000?

I guess I'm just a contrarian in this matter of the 1000 being "best" and others "not even close". No doubt the 1000 is very fine. It deserves a lofty position.

Is it the best? Not just because Sheldon says so, when accurately quoted. And not, I would venture, to the folks who own other, different, well-chosen bikes of the time.

Best,

J


I've never read a single fact about any other touring bike that would make it better than a 1000. Miyata built alot of companies bikes which says alot about Miyata. Did Specialized make their own Expedition or did they out source?

In regards to the 'other side of the story'.....lets here it. We're not going to becasue there isnt. Keep in mind that I extolled the virtues of the Miyata without saying a single negative thing about any other bike. Good products sell themselves.

Awhile back there was thread about frame quality with many of use posting pictures, if I posted pics of the inside of a Miyata frame you'd probably guess it was from a high low volume Italian builder.

I've owned Panasonic built anf Nishiki built bikes and can tell the finishes are not a good as Miyatas.

Jim

Jim:

Don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to alienate or argue with you. I'm not saying the Miyata 1000 isn't a superior bike. Or that Miyata as a company wasn't/isn't a leader in design, materials and craftsmanship.

I am saying that I don't like the idea that the 1000 is so good that others are "not even close". Or that Miyata production bikes are better built than "most" of European custom-built bikes. And other such dramatic proclamations.

I don't know the other side of the story. I'm asking you. I presumed that such strong feelings for the 1000 must have arisen from a broader review of others similar to it. If the Miyata is superior, that opinion certainly must be a comparative one.

I acknowledge that you never directly criticized other marques. And that's not what I'm soliciting, at all. But just reading Sheldon or reading and repeating marketing material extolling the virtues of splined, triple-butted tubes doesn't necessarily support anyone's claim about the 1000 being absolutely at the top of the heap.

if splined tubing is superior why don't more use it? I expect it's because they think their best ideas are different but just as good.

Literature is insufficient to support any ultimate claim.

Perpetuating a myth that the Miyata 1000 is the absolute best is by necessity a criticism of the 'shortcomings" of all others.

I've never owned a 1000. Or even ridden one. Have you? I've only seen a few first hand, and read about them.

I have owned a 912, a Team Pro and several other Miyata bikes. They are consistently high quality in many respects. I have owned Panasonic, Nishiki, Lotus, Centution and Fuji. Panasonic and Nishiki produced fantastic touring-specific bikes. All the others have their proponents. I've seen some mighty fine English touring bikes. A friend rides a Geoffery Butler that could stand with the 1000.

The Fuji Touring Series V is every bit the equal of the 1000 in my estimation. My experience tells me so. Fuji, top to bottom, year to year in their line up, produced bikes that equal any and all Miyata. This takes nothing away from Miyata.

I'll drop this before I irritate feelings, which was never my intention. As I said, my contrarian nature gets riled with the continued, unquestioned kneeling at the "throne of a king" who was appointed and not elected.

I'm not tearing down Miyata, I'm saying there are other GREAT bikes, especially the seemingly overlooked Japanese ones of that golden age. It's a tough task to extoll one over all others?

Thanks again for the enlighenment. Apologies for any misunderstandings. Respects all around. Now, back to regular programming. ;-)

Best,

Julian




I've never read a single fact about any other touring bike that would make it better than a 1000. Miyata built alot of companies bikes which says alot about Miyata. Did Specialized make their own Expedition or did they out source?

In regards to the 'other side of the story'.....lets here it. We're not going to becasue there isnt. Keep in mind that I extolled the virtues of the Miyata without saying a single negative thing about any other bike. Good products sell themselves.

Awhile back there was thread about frame quality with many of use posting pictures, if I posted pics of the inside of a Miyata frame you'd probably guess it was from a high low volume Italian builder.

I've owned Panasonic built anf Nishiki built bikes and can tell the finishes are not a good as Miyatas.

Jim

I have a Fuji Touring Series IV, an older Trek 520, and a Miyata 215ST. I consider the Miyata to be head and shoulders better than the others: fit, finish, overall construction. I would rate the Fuji second in this list.

I can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 is over my lowly 215ST.

I owned a Univega Specialissima back in the day. It was my understanding at the time -- based on close study of the bikes when I was shopping -- and I have read here at BF that the Univega Specialissima is the same frame as the Miyata 1000.


The Univega Specialissima and Miyata 1000 do not share the same frame. Miyata built the Specialissima for Univega following designs supplied by Ben Lawee, Univega's founder.



I also believe that the Univega Gran Turismo is the same frame as a lesser Miyata (the 610?).

Same as above. Not the same frame, but built by Miyata for Univega.

I have a Fuji Touring Series IV, an older Trek 520, and a Miyata 215ST. I consider the Miyata to be head and shoulders better than the others: fit, finish, overall construction. I would rate the Fuji second in this list.

I can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 is over my lowly 215ST.

+1

Many of you have seen my Miyata 210 touring bike before:

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff135/sarverdv/After%20reconditioning/Miyata2100072.jpg

I've never had the chance to ride a 1000, but I can tell you that this lowly 210 has a ride quality that impressed me mightily on it's first long ride with BF friends in Ohio.

I too can can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 would be.

...."head and shoulders"........"lowly".......sheer poetry, man. How about selling that raggedy old Touring IV to me, it's gotta be affordable.......;-)



I have a Fuji Touring Series IV, an older Trek 520, and a Miyata 215ST. I consider the Miyata to be head and shoulders better than the others: fit, finish, overall construction. I would rate the Fuji second in this list.

I can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 is over my lowly 215ST.

+1

Many of you have seen my Miyata 210 touring bike before:

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff135/sarverdv/After%20reconditioning/Miyata2100072.jpg

I've never had the chance to ride a 1000, but I can tell you that this lowly 210 has a ride quality that impressed me mightily on it's first long ride with BF friends in Ohio.

I too can can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 would be.
I have to say, if the 1000 lug work is that much better than the Two Ten, it must be awesome. Machin Shin's Two Ten is really put together nicely.

Jim:

Don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to alienate or argue with you. I'm not saying the Miyata 1000 isn't a superior bike. Or that Miyata as a company wasn't/isn't a leader in design, materials and craftsmanship.

I am saying that I don't like the idea that the 1000 is so good that others are "not even close". Or that Miyata production bikes are better built than "most" of European custom-built bikes. And other such dramatic proclamations.

I don't know the other side of the story. I'm asking you. I presumed that such strong feelings for the 1000 must have arisen from a broader review of others similar to it. If the Miyata is superior, that opinion certainly must be a comparative one.


if splined tubing is superior why don't more use it? I expect it's because they think their best ideas are different but just as good.

Perpetuating a myth that the Miyata 1000 is the absolute best is by necessity a criticism of the 'shortcomings" of all others.

I've never owned a 1000. Or even ridden one. Have you? I've only seen a few first hand, and read about them.

I have owned a 912, a Team Pro and several other Miyata bikes. They are consistently high quality in many respects. I have owned Panasonic, Nishiki, Lotus, Centution and Fuji. Panasonic and Nishiki produced fantastic touring-specific bikes. All the others have their proponents. I've seen some mighty fine English touring bikes. A friend rides a Geoffery Butler that could stand with the 1000.

The Fuji Touring Series V is every bit the equal of the 1000 in my estimation. My experience tells me so. Fuji, top to bottom, year to year in their line up, produced bikes that equal any and all Miyata. This takes nothing away from Miyata.

I'll drop this before I irritate feelings, which was never my intention. As I said, my contrarian nature gets riled with the continued, unquestioned kneeling at the "throne of a king" who was appointed and not elected.

I'm not tearing down Miyata, I'm saying there are other GREAT bikes, especially the seemingly overlooked Japanese ones of that golden age. It's a tough task to extoll one over all others?

Thanks again for the enlighenment. Apologies for any misunderstandings. Respects all around. Now, back to regular programming. ;-)

Best,

Julian

Julian,

I know your not arguing and I hope I'm not coming across that way. Perhaps 'not even close' was dramatic but that was the intention.

The thing is that Miyatas virtues can be easily seen and explained. You simply cannot do that with any of the other mass market touring bikes.

What makes a 1000 a great bike?: (this blank can be easily filled in)

What makes a 520 a great bike?: (fill in the blank)

What makes an Expedition a great bike?: (fill in the blank)

Keep in mind that I'm not saying the 520 and Expedition arent good bikes, they are, but they dont have anything that makes them a better bike than the 1000. If they did the 520 and Expedition fan boys would have chimed in by now.

As far as my knowledge of Miyatas: I worked at one of the top Miyata dealers in the country from '84 until they pulled out of the U.S. I've built and overhauled well over 100 Miyata 1000 touring bikes. Mr. Miyata visited our store and I have a picture of myself with him and our sales rep.

I've owned 2 Pro Miyatas and a '1 off' Miyata Trail Runner that was custom built in Japan. There was only 1 built for each size, I owned the 18.

In regards to high end, low volume Italians...I have 3 sitting next to me, none have the build quality of a Miyata.

I work on these bikes, I get my hands dirty.

Jim

Julian,

In regards to splined tubing....other comapnies make it, Columbus SLX is splined. Miyatas way just flat out expensive, they were splining steerer tubes, fork blades and chain stays!!!!

Jim

Jim, I have a question.

I have a Koga-Miyata and a Univega Gran Turismo (which whether it's the same bike or not, you'd be hard pressed to tell it apart from the 612 in the catalogues) so I've done a fair bit of reading of the available Miyata literature: Miyata catalogues, Koga-Miyata catalogues, fact sheets, blogs and forum posts. The only time I've ever run into the statement that the tubesets were drawn specifically not just by model but even by size is in your other posts. The tooling costs for that sort of thing would have to be tremendous, so one would imagine a company footing that bill would make some noise about it. I've noticed that some K-M bikes at least have the same frame specs between models (in the catalogue) with the price differences made up in the components. In fact, several of the good Japanese makers seem to do just that: build quality frames along the whole lineup and save money in the components on the cheaper ones, so that sometimes a frame can span one or two models and only differ in components and braze-ons. I don't doubt the veracity of your statements, I only wonder why I've not heard them echoed anywhere, even by other Miyata afficionados like T-Mar and Elev12K. Maybe I've just missed it, in which case could you point me to a description somewhere? It seems like in the catalogues I've looked through they make a big deal out of saying they draw their own tubing (and rightly so!) but I can't recall having seen a description of drawing each individual model and size.
Thanks,
-Tyler

I'm finding this thread interesting reading, although it's probably running out of thread. My feeling is that what we are arguing about is the quality of the frame. I would bet that there are not many bike makers that have control from smelter to showroom floor today the way a small number of companies did in a golden era from about 1979 to 1987. My understanding is that Mr. Miyata started out as gun maker. If you have the wherewithal to mass product rifles, you are going to be able to mass product a pretty good bike tube. Today, most of the mid to lower end bike frames are probably made in the same Chinese plant with a different decal slapped on it at the end o the line.

Sure there are expensive boutique frames then and today that are probably as good. But, in the late 70's the exchange rate dropped to a point that the Japanese could produce a high quality product that the US market could afford. By the late 80's, the exchange rate had reversed and most of the frame making was done in Taiwan.

So, if we are arguing about the best mass-produced, affordable touring frames ever made. I would have to say it's going to go to something 80-87 Japanese steel. As far as sticking up for the Expedition; as a proud Exp owner, I would have to say it s the plushes ride I've ever experienced. But I've never ridden a Miyata, or a Fuji for that matter. There seems to be some mystery about who actually made the Exp. frame. For all I know, it was Miyata. If that's the case, 2 of the 3 so-called best touring bikes ever were made by Miyata.

Jim, you won me over. Thanks for the fun read.

Jeff

I've read somewhere on this forum that the Specialized Expedition is a Miyata 1000 bought from Miyata and rebadged. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm sure I've seen that somewhere.

Jim, I have a question.

I have a Koga-Miyata and a Univega Gran Turismo (which whether it's the same bike or not, you'd be hard pressed to tell it apart from the 612 in the catalogues) so I've done a fair bit of reading of the available Miyata literature: Miyata catalogues, Koga-Miyata catalogues, fact sheets, blogs and forum posts. The only time I've ever run into the statement that the tubesets were drawn specifically not just by model but even by size is in your other posts. The tooling costs for that sort of thing would have to be tremendous, so one would imagine a company footing that bill would make some noise about it. I've noticed that some K-M bikes at least have the same frame specs between models (in the catalogue) with the price differences made up in the components. In fact, several of the good Japanese makers seem to do just that: build quality frames along the whole lineup and save money in the components on the cheaper ones, so that sometimes a frame can span one or two models and only differ in components and braze-ons. I don't doubt the veracity of your statements, I only wonder why I've not heard them echoed anywhere, even by other Miyata afficionados like T-Mar and Elev12K. Maybe I've just missed it, in which case could you point me to a description somewhere? It seems like in the catalogues I've looked through they make a big deal out of saying they draw their own tubing (and rightly so!) but I can't recall having seen a description of drawing each individual model and size.
Thanks,
-Tyler

Tyler,

I understand what your saying and your right, there isnt specific information in print, that states different frame sizes received their own specific tubes versus a standard tube being cut down. Thats information I heard directly from first hand sources who have visited the Miyata factory in Japan or worked for Miyata. Miyata rewarded their top dealers with trips to Japan, the owners of the shop I worked at went 4 or 5 times.

Keep in mind that Miyata manufactured thier own tubes, it wouldnt be a big expence for them to change the 'draw' cycles for a run of tubes.

As far as what they built for other companies, who knows. What do we know as fact about what Miyata did for other companies? The only factual information I heard from a reliable first hand source was they built frames for Univega but they weren't to the same specification. In other words, they weren't 'rebadged' Miyata models.

Respects but I think your statement re the bottom of the line Miyata
being "head and shoulders better" than a Fuji Touring IV speaks as much
to your objective powers of judgement as to the relative quality of the bikes.




I have a Fuji Touring Series IV, an older Trek 520, and a Miyata 215ST. I consider the Miyata to be head and shoulders better than the others: fit, finish, overall construction. I would rate the Fuji second in this list.

I can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 is over my lowly 215ST.

As far as what they built for other companies, who knows. What do we know as fact about what Miyata did for other companies? The only factual information I heard from a reliable first hand source was they built frames for Univega but they weren't to the same specification. In other words, they weren't 'rebadged' Miyata models.

My memory is probably failing me on this, but -- back in 1983 when I was shopping for a new touring bike it came down to a Univega Specialissima vs. a Miyata. I went over the frames braze-on by braze-on, and couldn't detect any outward differences. I do believe the brakes were different; otherwise they were the same (except for the brake mounts, as I recall - the Miyata I was looking at might have had different brakes).

My impression, purely as a customer, is that Ben Lawee (Univega) was an exceedingly smart packager and marketer of bikes, but I'd be surprised if he had an engineering team drawing up designs for the many, many models of Univegas that were cranked out in the 1980's. I have always assumed he went to the Miyata factory and worked on orders for rebadged Miyatas. The thought that Miyata would source different tubing for its frame customers would be surprising to me, too - why wouldn't they take advantage of the additional scale to get longer production runs of the same tubing?

Is it possible that there was a super-secret sauce in some of the tubing that Miyata didn't want to share with its customers? Yes. Is it likely that all of the frames that Miyata made for customers were made from inferior tubing? No.

I have no direct knowledge, just extrapolating based on sourcing experience I have in other industries.

Tyler,

I understand what your saying and your right, there isnt specific information in print, that states different frame sizes received their own specific tubes versus a standard tube being cut down. Thats information I heard directly from first hand sources who have visited the Miyata factory in Japan or worked for Miyata. Miyata rewarded their top dealers with trips to Japan, the owners of the shop I worked at went 4 or 5 times.

Keep in mind that Miyata manufactured thier own tubes, it wouldnt be a big expence for them to change the 'draw' cycles for a run of tubes.

As far as what they built for other companies, who knows. What do we know as fact about what Miyata did for other companies? The only factual information I heard from a reliable first hand source was they built frames for Univega but they weren't to the same specification. In other words, they weren't 'rebadged' Miyata models.


Fair enough, nothing can replace first hand experience. It just occurs to me that if Miyata drew these super-specific tubes, that would make them the only company to have ever done that. Maybe their marketing department sucked.

Well, there you go again. Your broad wash, dramatic statements for effect are little more than opinion.
For you to say "you simply cannot do that" in making a case for the quality story on other production bikes is just nonsensical, Jim.

It's nice that you have a picture with Mr. Miyata and that he spent lots money entertaining dealers. And your credentials as a wrench are solid.

I know you like the 1000. But your defense of it is filled unnecessarily with hearsay, PR hype and exaggeration.

Of course, that's the nature of the bike business. Puff-filled, neon bright stories to keep the starry-eyed public buying the next "best" thing.

I've never seen the slightest bit of evidence that drawing tubes in house makes a frame the "best". Or that spirals in tubing makes it the "best".

I repeat, I agree that the 1000 is a great bike and Miyata as a company did/does a lot of things right but anyone's claim that there is no other bike or company that rises to the same realms of quality appeals only to the naive. So too any proclamation that any one bike is the "best"

I continue with the opinion that the Fuji Touring V is every bit the equal of the Miyata 1000. It is constructed and finished as nicely, it is appointed and equipped as nicely and it rides as nicely. What's the big deal, sharing the podium? ;-)

Cheers,

Julian







Julian,

I know your not arguing and I hope I'm not coming across that way. Perhaps 'not even close' was dramatic but that was the intention.

The thing is that Miyatas virtues can be easily seen and explained. You simply cannot do that with any of the other mass market touring bikes.

What makes a 1000 a great bike?: (this blank can be easily filled in)

What makes a 520 a great bike?: (fill in the blank)

What makes an Expedition a great bike?: (fill in the blank)

Keep in mind that I'm not saying the 520 and Expedition arent good bikes, they are, but they dont have anything that makes them a better bike than the 1000. If they did the 520 and Expedition fan boys would have chimed in by now.

As far as my knowledge of Miyatas: I worked at one of the top Miyata dealers in the country from '84 until they pulled out of the U.S. I've built and overhauled well over 100 Miyata 1000 touring bikes. Mr. Miyata visited our store and I have a picture of myself with him and our sales rep.

I've owned 2 Pro Miyatas and a '1 off' Miyata Trail Runner that was custom built in Japan. There was only 1 built for each size, I owned the 18.

In regards to high end, low volume Italians...I have 3 sitting next to me, none have the build quality of a Miyata.

I work on these bikes, I get my hands dirty.

Jim

Well, there you go again. Your broad wash, dramatic statements for effect are little more than opinion.
For you to say "you simply cannot do that" in making a case for the quality story on other production bikes is just nonsensical, Jim.

It's nice that you have a picture with Mr. Miyata and that he spent lots money entertaining dealers. And your credentials as a wrench are solid.

I know you like the 1000. But your defense of it is filled unnecessarily with hearsay, PR hype and exaggeration.

Of course, that's the nature of the bike business. Puff-filled, neon bright stories to keep the starry-eyed public buying the next "best" thing.

I've never seen the slightest bit of evidence that drawing tubes in house makes a frame the "best". Or that spirals in tubing makes it the "best".

I repeat, I agree that the 1000 is a great bike and Miyata as a company did/does a lot of things right but anyone's claim that there is no other bike or company that rises to the same realms of quality appeals only to the naive. So too any proclamation that any one bike is the "best"

I continue with the opinion that the Fuji Touring V is every bit the equal of the Miyata 1000. It is constructed and finished as nicely, it is appointed and equipped as nicely and it rides as nicely. What's the big deal, sharing the podium? ;-)

Cheers,

Julian


What I know about the bikes and company comes from sources closer to the company than anyone else on the forum can claim for their information. To be honest, I dont know what your looking to get out of me and I realy dont care.

The thing is is that you cant tell me why the Fuji is just as good or nay other bike. There's nothing wrong with sharing the same podium if you deserve to be on the same podium.

Its time for you to put up or shut up. Step up to the plate Julian, instead of chillin' back sippin' whatever trendy drink your drinkin' step up with some information. Your claiming that others are just as good...back it up. Dotn trash me and tell me I'm full of ****.....my visions good, I can read between lines.

I'm done with this thread, I know what I know and what I know is that you have no f'ckn clue.

Peace.... my contribitions are done. Y'all can give Julian big internet high 5.

I've never owned a 1000. Or even ridden one. Have you?



I continue with the opinion that the Fuji Touring V is every bit the equal of the Miyata 1000. It is constructed and finished as nicely, it is appointed and equipped as nicely and it rides as nicely. (emphasis mine)

Not to pick nits or anything, but how do you know?

I'm a big fan of both Fuji and Miyata, and I can understand where you are coming from but I think you are letting your own biases get just as involved, if not more so, than miamijim's, and wasn't that your whole point?

Well, it started out one thing and wound up another.

My point final was to try to puncture the idea of a "best" bike. That seemed pretty clear, I thought.
Miamijim and Sheldon think the 1000 is "best". I don't think so. I don't think ANY bike is "best".
I think that some people like this one and others like that one. The rest is hype.

And I try to remember we're just talking about bikes. Hardly something worth getting
irritated and start name-calling strangers. LOL!!!

I'm just trying to engage people and encourage some entertainment among ourselves.

BTW, I clearly state in the same sentence you question me on that it's my "opinion". I hope that answers your
(completely forgivable) "nitpick".

Thanks for the heads up. On reflection, I'm not happy with the way things turned out. See my
final note to Miamijim, whose friendship I would like to keep.

Julian


(emphasis mine)

Not to pick nits or anything, but how do you know?

I'm a big fan of both Fuji and Miyata, and I can understand where you are coming from but I think you are letting your own biases get just as involved, if not more so, than miamijim's, and wasn't that your whole point?

Shame, Jim. I'm not drinking anything. I never said you were full of anything. I never became personal in any respect. Keep it on bikes, please.

I am sorry for my part in making you upset. I hope you will forgive my misplaced enthusiasm. I
actually learned a lot. I'm happy to leave it a "potayto/potahto" thing with you.



Cheers,

Julian


What I know about the bikes and company comes from sources closer to the company than anyone else on the forum can claim for their information. To be honest, I dont know what your looking to get out of me and I realy dont care.

The thing is is that you cant tell me why the Fuji is just as good or nay other bike. There's nothing wrong with sharing the same podium if you deserve to be on the same podium.

Its time for you to put up or shut up. Step up to the plate Julian, instead of chillin' back sippin' whatever trendy drink your drinkin' step up with some information. Your claiming that others are just as good...back it up. Dotn trash me and tell me I'm full of ****.....my visions good, I can read between lines.

I'm done with this thread, I know what I know and what I know is that you have no f'ckn clue.

Peace.... my contribitions are done. Y'all can give Julian big internet high 5.

Back to Miyatas--

The Specialized Expedition *is* a Miyata 1000.
The Univegas were made by Miyata with Miyata tubing and everything, but I'm not certain that the geometry is exactly the same. I know that my Univega Gran Turismo had the identical derailleurs, wheels, etc that the Miyata 610 of the same year had, with the addition of front rack mounts. The chainstays seem shorter, tho.

Knock it off boys .. we all know that the "best" touring bike is the one that sits under our ass when we need to get from point A to B, carrying X amount of weight in the worst type of conditions imaginable and get us up the last hill. And it's so, so good, that we look forward to jumping on that bike to doing it all over tomorrow. Day after day, after day.

Scott

And which one is that for you, Fujiman? ;-)

J



Knock it off boys .. we all know that the "best" touring bike is the one that sits under our ass when we need to get from point A to B, carrying X amount of weight in the worst type of conditions imaginable and get us up the last hill. And it's so, so good, that we look forward to jumping on that bike to doing it all over tomorrow. Day after day, after day.

Scott

As requested, here are some pictures.


To bad it is such a tiny bike.
Why is it most of the Miyata's I get to see are so tiny?
I had a blue 86' and I wish I still had it. I'm looking for one to add to the "collection" now. Hope my ex-girlfriend is still enjoying it!
Anyway, the 1000 is a fine bike but since I've had a 1000 and a Nishiki Continental that is one year older and I've toured on both.........
For me, the better riding bike is the Nishiki hands down. The double butted tubes of my Continental seemed to always give me a better ride than the 1000. And tires made no difference. The bike just handled better loaded down.
On my last 80's run to the Ice Field Parkway I stood in front of both of these bikes and decided which one I was going to ride from Regina to Jasper.
And I chose the Nishiki. Still have it.