Bicycle Mechanics - rims: what do you know?

i just bought a set of phil wood hubs (32h front and 32h double-fixed rear) and am looking for the right rims. i am going to try to build them up myself (with the help of a friend) and then get them double-checked at the lbs. over the last week of researching rims i have encountered so many conflicting opinions i am totally at a loss. so here are some claims id like to hear debated:

1) mavic is now overproduced and their quality has gone down? (apparently theyve been bought out and cant keep up with old production standards)?
2) a fixed wheel should use an eyeletted rim otherwise its spokes are more prone to pull out?
3) double eyeletted?
4) a fixed wheel should use a deep profile rim for rigidity (which, as far as i know is never eyeletted, therefore negating #2)?
5) machined = weaker, anodized/ceramic = weaker, weld = weaker, etc, etc: old skool rims are better and dont buy into any of the commercial hype about 'new technology'?

i have used a set of mavic cxp33s for several years now and they never need to be trued. i was just gonna get another set of those but then all this ****-talking about mavic as no longer being made in france and now velocity deep-v rims are the new fad but they dont have eyelets and and and...

I think that too many guys waste way too much of their time studying and reading books that would be far better spent riding their bicycles. The result is that they take one feature of a product and make that the focus of their whole opinion. The result is ill conceived and errorneous opinions.

When a manufacturer designs a new product, the concept has to start with what the finished product will look like and what it will sell for. Then they work backwards until they arrive at the raw materials. For example, if I were to decide I wanted to market a welded rim with a machined brake track, I wouldn't start with an ordinary rim and machine the brake track, I'd start with a weldable aluminum alloy made into a thicker extrusion to allow for the machining.

You're not buying individual features like a deep section or a machined brake track, you're buying a whole rim system that has been designed from the ground up to work together. Some work better than others but, in general, you are going to get about the quality that you're willing to pay for. If I were building a wheelset using Phil Wood hubs, I'd pay the few dollars more to get a pair of rims that have an equally strong reputation.

See if you can find a set of the 33's. While it is not eyeletted, it uses a insert to spread the load of the nipple. They are some of the strongest road rims i have ever built up or seen in use. My opinion: Mavic makes very nice wheels and rims and I have seen fewer problems with them than any other wheel or rim companys product.

Here are a few things I think are valid. A black hard anodized rim is more prone to cracking because it is more brittle. Single eyelets are weaker then double. Combine both of the above and it is a problem. This came from several engineers. And all of the bad reports of the mavic ma3 that has these may make it true. My ma3 had a cracked spoke hole after 600 miles it was built by a good mechanic.
The velocity rims have no eyelets but are well rated I have two of them. Got one wheel with a arrowhead rim for fathers day. I sure like that wheel got a back wheel with a dyad rim. But I goofed up the hub so it only got ridden a little bit.

but are mavics still made in france? maybe their reputation is built off the older more quality product.

my old cxp33s are great. but maybe i cant expect the same from the new ones.

check these out:
http://www.ambrosiospa.com/cerchi_corsa.htm

i wish they were more widely available in the usa. they use a hype 'new' anodization process called silk-dur that is supposed to be a lot more durable: 3-stage treatment with 'molecular bombardment... who knows if its really all that different.

the excellight models have 'double' eyelets plus a medium profile. they seem really strong, light and look pretty.

but are mavics still made in france? maybe their reputation is built off the older more quality product.

my old cxp33s are great. but maybe i cant expect the same from the new ones.

i wish they were more widely available in the usa. they use a hype 'new' anodization process called silk-dur that is supposed to be a lot more durable: 3-stage treatment with 'molecular bombardment... who knows if its really all that different.

the excellight models have 'double' eyelets plus a medium profile. they seem really strong, light and look pretty.

I don't know. after my MA3 died and I asked about it I sure found out how crappy they were. here is what I have been using http://www.velocityusa.com/ not real expensive and nice and durable.

Never had a problem with Mavics really, but I'm really impressed with Velocity's stuff and will probably use them from now onm, especially since one of their master wheelbuilders frequents our shop :D

When I posted my mavic problem man everyone and their dog came out to complain. One LBS owner shipped back all the ma3 rims because he had so many problems. A really good one man LBS told me the same problems and got me the velocity rim. Then I goofed up the hub right after he built the wheel for me (G)
For fathers day I got a black velocity hub (front) sealed cartridge bearings man is it smoother and the arrowhead rim all black and even the spokes are black. It sure rides nicer then my older rim did.

Question #1; I think Mavic quality is just fine, but I believe they are overpriced; bought out part I have not heard.

Question 2 & 3; I believe (and use) that all rims (fixed or not) should have eyelets. The following info came from: http://www.yarchive.net/bike/aluminum_nipples.html

"A rim with eyelets do make for a stronger wheel then any other kind of way; the following info was copied from here: Rims have eyelets the same as eyelets on shoes or clothing. Rims can also have sockets that bridge inner and outer walls of a hollow rim and are held in place by eyelets. Fiamme made sockets whose narrow ends were formed to effect eyelets, thus avoiding an additional part. Eyelets are generally used to prevent galling of the aluminum rim when highly loaded nipples are turned, regardless of their material.

Those who are preoccupied with weight can take lubrication measures to avoid friction problems to a degree, but for general use, steel eyelets for nipple bearing is preferred. Eyelets are also not used for cost reasons ans such low cost wheels are often not highly tensioned."

Question 4; A deep profile wheel won't mean a thing on a fixie, the rigidness of the rim will translate into a harsher ride, but not necessary a stronger wheel; and is more effected by side wind. A medium to small profile is just fine for your purposes.

Question 5; Again I'm going to refer you to: http://www.yarchive.net/bike/rims.html Please read the whole thing because it goes into all kinds of things that you can educate your self on; and if you want to learn more hit the home tab and that will take you to a table of contents of vast amount of info on just about anything having to do with bicycles.

There are many rims out there that do not get the publicity that Mavic gets, that are just as good if not better. One poster mentioned Ambrosio, thats a very good rim, also Torelli Master Series is excellent; both have eyelets, the Ambrosio is a black rim and the Torelli is a silver rim, otherwise their the same. Both of those rims are use a lot in Europe for pros to train on.

I'd be surprised if the Deep-V rims are any lighter than CXP30 or Rigida DP18s; both of which have a 30mm dish and weigh ~570g!! The CXP33s are only ~450g.

I must say, however, that both the DP18s and the Mavic CXP30s are TOTALLY BOMB PROOF, but I have busted a CXP33.

One poster mentioned Ambrosio, thats a very good rim

yeah that was me. :p i guess my problem is just that i think deep profile rims look cooler :rolleyes: so i am trying to justify the aesthetic by finding a fucntional advantage for them. in that vein i will be a devils advocate...

i think that rims like the velocity and the aero ambrosio rims (the futura and now the fsc28), for example, make up for eyelets by reinforcing the rim around the spoke holes. so those rims compensate by being thicker. maybe that really is enough? eyelets also help for truing purposes, though...

on the whole mavic being exported tip, a local mechanic said they were bought out by sun (i think thats what he said) and are now made in indiana. anyone who deals in mavic -- can you check a label to see if the new rims still say 'made in france'? i would really like to know if this rumor is just bull****.

yeah that was me. :anyone who deals in mavic -- can you check a label to see if the new rims still say 'made in france'? i would really like to know if this rumor is just bull****.

I have a set of '03 X139 mavics, made in France.

"made in france"

huh. i wonder if i was being lied to. hey thanks froze for the link to the yarchive. ive been reading for hours now...

"made in france"

huh. i wonder if i was being lied to. hey thanks froze for the link to the yarchive. ive been reading for hours now...

No problemo; I have the site bookmarked so if I have a question about something or someone else does I can go right to it. And Jobst Brandt is one of America's foremost knowledgeable experts on bicycling.

a response from velocity on eyeletted rims and why theirs have none. it makes an interesting point about the larger diameter of the holes needed for eyeletted rims:

The point where the nipple interfaces with a Velocity rim is the thickest
part of the rim. We simply do not see spokes pulling through our
non-eyeletted rims. However, as a veteran bike mechanic, I have seen
numerous eyeletted rims where the spokes have pulled the eyelette clean off
the rim. To have an eyelette on a rim, a hole about twice the diameter of a
non-eyeletted rim must be drilled in order to accommodate the eyelette and
nipple. The larger the hole, the easier it is to pull a spoke through.

Ephemeralskin; that comment from Velocity is pure unadulterated BS!!! Velocity is trying to sell their product and they're trying to be cheap by not putting in the eyelets. I have never seen a eyeletted spoke pull out of a rim, but I have seen that happen to noneyelet. I think I would trust Jobst Brandt non-bias opinion over some manufacture trying to push their product.

Ephemeralskin; that comment from Velocity is pure unadulterated BS!!! Velocity is trying to sell their product and they're trying to be cheap by not putting in the eyelets. I have never seen a eyeletted spoke pull out of a rim, but I have seen that happen to noneyelet. I think I would trust Jobst Brandt non-bias opinion over some manufacture trying to push their product.

I have my ma3 mavic rim did it after only 600 miles. and several LBS owners told me it was a problem for them too.

See if you can find a set of the 33's. While it is not eyeletted, it uses a insert to spread the load of the nipple. They are some of the strongest road rims i have ever built up or seen in use. My opinion: Mavic makes very nice wheels and rims and I have seen fewer problems with them than any other wheel or rim companys product.

Amen and pass the Mavics. The Rev. is right. One set of CXP33s in my garage with over 8,000 miles and not a single problem of any kind. Another set of OpenPros with about 1,400 miles and of course not a single problem.

See if you can find a set of the 33's. While it is not eyeletted, it uses a insert to spread the load of the nipple. They are some of the strongest road rims i have ever built up or seen in use. My opinion: Mavic makes very nice wheels and rims and I have seen fewer problems with them than any other wheel or rim companys product.

The Rev is absolutely right! Amen and pass the Mavics.

Ephemeralskin; that comment from Velocity is pure unadulterated BS!!! Velocity is trying to sell their product and they're trying to be cheap by not putting in the eyelets. I have never seen a eyeletted spoke pull out of a rim, but I have seen that happen to noneyelet. I think I would trust Jobst Brandt non-bias opinion over some manufacture trying to push their product.

actually, for the record, velocity does make an eyeletted rim. it is cheaper than the deep v and a little more than the aerohead (at least at online shops).

what non-eyeletted rims have you seen with pulled spokes? the only way to get anywhere is to go beyond conjecture and anecdote and think about this theoretically: how do eyelettes improve a wheel? to what extent do the larger diameter holes drilled for eyelettes detriment the rim (if at all)?

I have seen both eyeletted and non-eyeletted fail and pull the spokes though. Right now I have about 12 pair of wheels in the house, the newest set is about three years old. They are a mix of road, mountian, trials and fixed. The rims are mostly Mavic with a couple of AeroHeads, Weiman(sic?) and some out of production Araya (That got built because they had the right # of holes and were at hand. Out of these (and the hundreds of others I have built) the only real problems I ever had were alloy nipples cracking after a couple of years. I did have some customer wheels spider at the eyelet a couple of years ago, and they were Mavic rims, but I have not seen it in quite a while. I also look at it from the point of the guy building the wheel. When I do a Mavic it just trues and rounds se easy. The Velocity rims are a little less consistent in that ease but not bad (Just be sure to dab grease with a q-tip everywhere a nipple sits) The Araya roads where pretty wiggly in the build, the 20" were not bad. The Weimans were a little wiggly as well. By wiggly I mean not round and flat to begin with. The Velocitys are not really wiggly in this respect but they seem to be a little inconsistent in the mate point of the nipple. you would pull all the spokes/nipples down to the same point and the wheel would be way out of true and round. Annoying.

Well, our shop actually sells Velocity mostly... so far I have been extremely impressed with their quality. Every wheel that comes from them is handbuilt regardless of pricepoint, and I can't say I have seen one of their rims fail. Some of their hubs have been kinda iffy, but they always replace them no questions asked, and usually within 24hrs, less if they have a wheel in stock. Good company, good product.

Prebuilts? Bleah.