Touring - aerodynamic touring bags

Did I miss this in search? Are there bags made specifically to reduce aerodynamic drag? How about a large round front bag? My recumbent has a huge windshield but I don't have anything on my diamond frame touring bike. Riding a centruy I average 17+ mph and wind is a factor. Touring I am down at 14 or 15mph and wonder the trade-off on added windshield versus weight.

There are bags called Tailwind, that are still made, and apparently sold by/for recumbent users. They were originally developed, as far as I can tell, for diamond frames. At the time, the Kool-aid hot set-up like todays, LHT, Tubus, and Otlieb, etc... was a bike with a Zzipper fairings, Tailwind bags front and back on Blackburn racks, maybe a Canondale touring bike. Made the review column of Outside when it was a more serious kind of rag. It was said at the time that the aero was better than a bike without fairing and bags, though some scoffed. I still think they are a pretty cool rig. They are pretty smooth, rounded to the front and flat to the rear.

At the time gear was simpler and a real effort was made to keep it light. Low windage bags were simple in shape, but what came to dominate where a lot of pockets, and straps, and doo dahs.

Where this probably needs to go is monolythic hard shell cases. Aero, integral rack, and waterproof. While something like this has been tried, I have yet to see anything grab much of the market.

http://www.angletechcycles.com/accessories/techwind.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7289267@N06/3236672890/sizes/o/

There actually have been a few threads here about making aero panniers. Making your own Otliebs, or super pocket tech bags is tough, but making one's own aero ones would seem doable.

Did I miss this in search? Are there bags made specifically to reduce aerodynamic drag? How about a large round front bag? My recumbent has a huge windshield but I don't have anything on my diamond frame touring bike. Riding a centruy I average 17+ mph and wind is a factor. Touring I am down at 14 or 15mph and wonder the trade-off on added windshield versus weight.

A large saddlebag (ie, Carradice Nelson Longflap or Camper Longflap) sits mostly behind the thighs while pedaling. I have no idea how to measure drag, but I would think because a Carradice saddle bag sits behind the thighs, it would create less drag than a similar sized pannier (which, at best, is only partially shielded from wind by the calf muscle).

Small low riders on the front reduce the drag on the spokes and legs.

Great info! BF at it's best. Thank you all.
Seems like an aero shaped, rigid handlebar bag might smooth air flow around the biggest obstacle, my torso. True, my stomach muscle already has an aero shape.

I've avoided low, front panniers out of concern for mass degrading steering but it does seem the bike would be better balanced than stuffing more weight in a Nelson. The Nelson approach seems the most aerodynamic of rear bags but may bounce a bit.

Great info! BF at it's best. Thank you all.
Seems like an aero shaped, rigid handlebar bag might smooth air flow around the biggest obstacle, my torso. True, my stomach muscle already has an aero shape.

I've avoided low, front panniers out of concern for mass degrading steering but it does seem the bike would be better balanced than stuffing more weight in a Nelson. The Nelson approach seems the most aerodynamic of rear bags but may bounce a bit.


mass down low on the front doesn't degrade steering, it just makes it slower. In my opinion overloading a bike on the rear degrades steering by making it too light. Rear panniers have that potential. But for fast riding (down hill where the issue is irrelvant to effort) I can feel greater aerodynamic resistance with full lowriders. When Specialized (I think) marketed Tailwind panniers it was popular for a bit but the facts are that once you start putting on a panniers load worth of stuff uphill speed drops off enough to make any increased efficiency at high speeds with aerodynamics kind of moot. In hilly country if a person wants to maintain a high average pace they have to maintain it UPHILL. Down hill is pretty easy.

As much as I entertain the idea of aero front panniers that are basically 6" diameter dry bags it won't make any difference if I can't maintain 15mph+ speeds. In hilly country that just isn't happening. When I was in my 20's and weighed 145lbs it made more of a difference if my touring gear weighed 15lbs than if it was an aerodynamic configuration,,but conveniently that small of a load can be. Now that I'm 200lbs I can still maintain a decent flat land average, albeit not much above 15 average, but when the hills hit I SLOW DOWN. Some of which is age but most of it is fat.

Which is why touring isn't about speed, anyone can tour.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the name, but there is custom bag manufacturer who makes frame, handlebar and seat bags mainly in the context of off-road mountain bike touring. These would all line up with the bike and the rider and so one might expect less aerodrag than regular panniers. Plus, there might be less weight since there are no racks involved. Space is limited, however.

Maybe someone will remember the name of the manufacturer. I know he supplied last year's Great Divide Race winner.

Ever hear of a long distance tourer using a windshield?

Carousel Design Works http://www.carouseldesignworks.com/index.html

<<Ever hear of a long distance tourer using a windshield?>>

Years ago I tried a ZZipp Fairing on our Santana Tandem. There was a 7 to 10 % speed gain but the reduced airflow for cooling made for overheating of the captain in all but the coolest conditions.

>Carousel Design Works http://www.carouseldesignworks.com/index.html

Also http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/
I'm in the process of ordering a frame bag from him. I hadn't really thought about the "aero" aspect - it would only hold enough for pretty lightweight touring anyway.

A large saddlebag (ie, Carradice Nelson Longflap or Camper Longflap) sits mostly behind the thighs while pedaling. I have no idea how to measure drag, but I would think because a Carradice saddle bag sits behind the thighs, it would create less drag than a similar sized pannier (which, at best, is only partially shielded from wind by the calf muscle).

For common vehicles, drag is normally measured relative to frontal area, but is not the same as frontal area. So there's really no way to predict exactly what the drag is going to be without testing it.

For example, using a "tailbox" (I think that's the term) on a recumbent can significantly reduce drag without affecting frontal area. Similarly with the time-trial helmets.

OK, what about a lightweight waterproof semi-rigid plastic cover that would be made to wrap around both front panniers?

109424

Speed for the average touring cyclist makes this pointless for the most part. Now if you could average 20 instead of 12-14 maybe a little(very little). As speed increases the drag of anything will increase. My point is that at 12-14 your benefit will be hard to even measure unless your riding into a 20 mph headwind. Being in the drops or out of the drops I'm guessing would have more effect of front drag in this case and speed.

For touring a baffle would cut a headwind and protect non-waterproof panniers. I already go faster than I should downhill.

Anybody got a wind tunnel?

This case http://www.otivia.com/cargocache.html is very aero, it fits well behind the rider and does not increase the frontal area of the bike. It may be possible to mount it on a front rack, providing enough volume for light touring and balancing the load.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/wildcat-bucket/cargocache_closed.jpg

Carousel Design Works http://www.carouseldesignworks.com/index.html

Yes. That's it. Thanks for jogging the memory.

"OK, what about a lightweight waterproof semi-rigid plastic cover"

Like it, though it might fall prey to the same concern as solid front wheels, unstable in the wind.

Another thought is fairing wheels, that can reduce drag a lot. I would like to get those covers for at least the rear wheel. Or try the aerospoke carbon wheel.

I checked with the tailwind guys, and they don't seem to make the front bags any more. The angle on the face of the bag was for heel clearance in the rear. A bag like that on the front is a little odd.

Not to take this subject in a different direction but.... do you think pulling a Bob trailer would be more aerodynamic than front and rear panniers?? In my mind's eye, it would seem so but would the trailer lose the war of efficiency if the extra friction of another wheel on ground vs. the less air drag.

sorry if already mentioned above, but gotta say:

"Slow down, smell the roses, feel the sun/rain, breath...!" that's what touring is for me.

do the cranking, road-criterion, racing stuff with your other al/tt/comp bike after!

(just my thoughts!)

I'm with kya, unless you're credit card touring there isn't much need to worry about either speed or aerodynamics. It's not like you're going to put a pair of Zipp 404's on your Trek 520.

I might add that the bags are only part of the equation. Even unloaded, a typical touring bike will be much slower on the flats than a recumbent.

On a separate note, aerodynamic properties are not as predictable as you might think. I wouldn't buy into most claims about an "aero pannier" unless someone ponied up for a wind tunnel session.

Most panniers look like parachutes to me.

What's wrong with reducing the penalty?

Michael

Rose smell isn't much different at 12 mph than 14 and 14 gets me home 6 days earlier. The best explaination I can give you is someone once said, "middle age is when I have a choice between two temptations and I choose the one that gets me home earlier."

A 64 year old friend wants to ride Mount Ventoux (again) before he is too old. We each like the challenge or we'd wouldn't go. On SP scale I am a 5 on comfort, weight, friction and 3 on time from home. Another friend rates 7 on everything except time where he is crossing the US in 80 days. He has a tent, more clothes, sleeping pad, using camp grounds, an occassional motel and is riding 5 hours a day.

"home is where the heart is" (heard that somewhere...)
"live for the moment" is another...so be where you are.

i don't want to get too deep, but touring by bicycle (to me) means slowing down, not 65mph, a step beside...embracing the time i have been given to embrace the time.

a tour 2010 is shaping up, 3500 miles, 55 days, self contained, x-USA, Southern tier, w/e is coming down. i will be age 50, partner age 79! Time is of the essence, but still secondary to tour!

this gumgo's for you!!

if in major hurry, have you also looked into MOTOR-cycling your route?

tomg

OK, what about a lightweight waterproof semi-rigid plastic cover that would be made to wrap around both front panniers?

109424


"OK, what about a lightweight waterproof semi-rigid plastic cover"

Like it, though it might fall prey to the same concern as solid front wheels, unstable in the wind.

A few years ago I pondered building a teardrop camper (http://www.travelchannel.com/Video_%26_Photos/Video_Detail?videoRef=TITLE612) to tow with my small car. I was thinking of using canvas or ceconite stretched over a framework to keep the weight down. That dream is not dead! :D Ceconite (http://www.ceconite.com/) is used for aircraft and is tough. My buddy's 1946 Champ relies on fabric & wood wings...similar to this onehttp://www.jameskimble.com/Champ.jpg

If you're good at fabricating, a painted canvas or ceconite lightweight shell similar to motorcycle lowers could help reduce frontal pannier drag.

And some of the strongest and lightest sea kayaks made still use the "skin on frame (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/SkinOnFrame/index.html)" technique...very strong, durable painted canvas over wood...another old hobby :innocent:

However, like others have mentioned, the weight penalty would probably offset the aero benefit...but it sure could look cool :thumb:

Shouldn't you be riding your recumbent bike if aerodynamics/speed is a major concern?

Most panniers look like parachutes to me. What's wrong with reducing the penalty?
Keeping in mind that I'm actually OK with fast tours: It's kind of a snake-oil thing, IMO.

Chances are pretty good that no one is designing panniers for aero benefits and testing it in a wind tunnel. Aerodynamics is important but less critical at typical (non-recumbent) touring speeds, thus minimizing potential benefits. By design an "aero pannier" would only help with headwinds anyway, much in the same way that disc wheels are great for indoors or calm days but detrimental in crosswinds. (I.e. claims that "our bags are aero" might seem to make sense but are probably unproven.)

More importantly, there are numerous other factors that negatively effect performance but positively benefit the tourist, e.g. upright position, sturdy wheels, wide tires, lower psi, flat resistance. And again, a diamond frame bike -- even one made for speed rather than touring -- is going to be slower than the recumbent most of the time, no matter what.

I.e. the OP's theory that it's primarily the bag's fault and/or adding a fairing will produce tangible benefits is probably flawed.

As to "getting home faster," if I want to go fast, I'm leaving as much crap behind as possible anyway -- perhaps even using support to transport my gear. And if I decide to ride solo and spend 6 days on tour, I'm going to spend 6 days on tour. If "aero panniers" gives you a 5% speed boost, then you'd go 3 extra miles on a 60 mile day - or finish the day 15 minutes faster. Very critical. ;)

Nothing wrong with "aero" especially if you're pedaling all day into a headwind. A 20 mph headwind and 10 mph pedaling speed make "aero" a much more feasible proposition. Smelling the roses is all wonderful, but for some reason the feed-lot stays with you longer.

From rose philosphy to seal skin ceconite, we've covered it. A sweet spot for me is probably a lightly loaded recumbent. On a diamond frame bike I'll see if I can pack things in a handlebar bag and rear saddlebag; if not then smaller rear panniers.

How aero is a BOB trailer? Assuming it's packed neatly, or course.

A BOB is far more aerodynamic than a set of panniers. I've had both and noticed it when riding with people who had the opposite rig than I did at the time. With the BOB you're faster in headwinds and not bothered as much by crosswinds. You're faster going downhill at equal effort, but you pay for it with the extra friction and maybe extra weight going uphill. And how much time is spent going downhill versus uphill??? I now have panniers.

If it is all hills then weight up is more important than speed down. If level then aero competes with friction. It'd be cool to run a comparison. I bet a trailer loses. It might be interesting to make a real aero trailer.

Trailers do allow using ones favorite century bike and not worry about racks and pannier-heel clearance.

Guess I like crashing older threads that turn up on searches. I think aero panniers is a hugely overlooked. Considering there are aero bars, aero water bottles, spokes etc. Anyone who ever spends a day biking into a head win will try to reduce drag as much as possible!

Why go half way? get a velomobile .. http://www.bluevelo.com/quest_velomobile.html

I have tailwind front panniers on front low riders. I doubt there is any difference to standard panniers, if the width is the same. I have found them durable and I still have them 27 years later - but perhaps 5,000 miles max touring with them. One thing I did do, is instead of mouning my sleeping bag and foam pad sideways on the rack (still done today?), I put them lengthwise extending out on the rear rack. My terminal speed, no matter how steep or long the descent was 44 mph with this set-up.

The drag equation is:

D = .5 * Cd * A * r * V^2

Where D is the force of Drag
Cd is the drag coefficient
A is the frontal area
r is the air density
V is the velocity

At the speeds that bicycle tourists typically travel, I imagine that air drag due to panniers makes only a small difference. The biggest determinant on Drag is velocity, as Drag increases with the square of velocity. But unless we are screaming down hills, our maximum speeds are pretty limited.

The density of the air is a constant. You have limited control over the frontal area of the bicycle itself. But you can radically affect frontal area by changing positions.

The drag coefficient goes down when you ride low. The shape of the panniers contribute to the Cd, but there may be a point of diminishing returns: you cannot reduce the size of your panniers to zero while touring. You need space to carry stuff! And unless you have huge panniers, your body has a lot more frontal area than your panniers. (Your legs count!)

If you are serious about cutting aerodynamic drag, the most effective way would be to ride slowly. Beyond that, reduce your body's frontal area and drag coefficient by riding low. Airfoil-like panniers might make a small difference, but I doubt it's going to slow you down significantly compared to body position.

Well that velomobile looks seriously awesome! I really do want to get one of those.

However till then I am not buying this "aerodynamics doesn't matter for tourers" at all! I try to go as fast and efficiently as I can. Even if your not going fast, if you battling a head wind in terms of wind speed it is the same. Yes riding lower helps. As well as an aero helmet, water bottle, aero shaped spokes, tight fitting clothing, and aero bars. Aero panniers follows it is just common sense. Those tailwind panniers look great, just cant bring myself to spend $300 on panniers. So I am looking for thin panniers that hold gear by being wide.

Looking again at those tailwinds, I think they should be thinner, and hold more space by being wider, and the back of it should have as much of a taper as the front.

Are Tailwinds still made anymore? I could not find them on the Specialized website

http://cycledifferent.com/

http://store.cycledifferent.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/pan.jpg

http://www.angletechcycles.com/products/accessories/techwind.htm

sorry if already mentioned above, but gotta say:

"slow down, smell the roses, feel the sun/rain, breath...!" that's what touring is for me.

Do the cranking, road-criterion, racing stuff with your other al/tt/comp bike after!

(just my thoughts!)

yes!