Advocacy & Safety - Dogs-a Rant

I'm new to the forum and may be missing it, but I have yet to see much mention in this section of dogs. It seems to me that besides the psychopath drivers out there(2 near run-offs on yesterday's ride), dogs are the biggest danger out there. Like the moron drivers, the dog problem comes down to a lack of respect-people can't be bothered to corral their animals. I can't count the number of times I've had to dismount and face off against a dog, or just outrun them.
Anyway, I'm wondering what the consensus is on dealing with these foul creatures. I carry pepper spray on my MTB, but havn't figured out a good way to mount it on the road bike.

Go here (http://www.bikeforums.net/search.php?) and search for dogs. You will find what you seek. Or look here (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=55587) . This one (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=46352&highlight=pepper+spray) is funny, sort of.

ya, just kick those dogs asses! they ain't nuthin but crap on legs far as i'm concerned! i tell you what. just chase em right back! and spray their asses! if no one is around you can beat em with a bat! :mad:

I had the same problem when I started riding 6 months ago. Pepper spray that streams out, Yell, stop, slow down, advise the owner that if his dog bites you'll see him in court.;) Keep yourself between the dog and bike. Sometimes water helps too. After awhile the dogs stopped chasing me.:)

For anybody who doesn't just assume Merton is joking, four words: Felony Cruelty to Animals.

BTW, there is no "dog problem". It's a human problem.

please go get your OC certification. both for liability and so that you know what it's like to have it used on yourself. i think "pepper spray" is over kill for most dog situations.

oh and also get some decontamination wipes. you are likely to get it in your own face and wish you had some.

http://www.defensedevices.com/suddecwip.html

please go get your OC certification. both for liability and so that you know what it's like to have it used on yourself. i think "pepper spray" is over kill for most dog situations.

I'm a former Marine with both riot control and MP training. In other words, OC certified times 2. I know damn well how much it hurts. If, however, a dog is threatening me, I have no problem hurting it. If nothing else, it will teach the dog, and the owner, a lesson. I'll only use the spray if the threat is serious(I'm not hosing down dogs that keep their distance), but beyond that, my only hesitation comes from fear of having the spray blow back on me. As I said, I know how much it hurts.

BTW, there is no "dog problem". It's a human problem.

When the dog is chasing ME, it sure is a dog problem...

When the dog is chasing ME, it sure is a dog problem... When a dog is chasing you, a human has violated the law. I'm not saying you don't need to protect yourself; I've "polo"-swung my pump at dogs at my heel before, and probably would've hit 'em with HALT if I had any. But the problem is the human. The dog chasing you is a symptom of the problem.

Nothing like a forced sprint, is there?

I used to spray water in their faces, but found that this distracts me from sprinting, and one day I found myself low on water out in the middle of nowhere. Now, if it's obvious that the dog has me headed off, I slow down, to a stop if necessary, and keep the bike between me and the dog. If walking away doesn't work, then I'd consider using the pepper spray I sometimes carry (but I'd much rather use it on the inconsiderate owner).

For anybody who doesn't just assume Merton is joking, four words: Felony Cruelty to Animals.

BTW, there is no "dog problem". It's a human problem.


yeah. you come down here and let a pit chase ya some time. see how nice that lil doggy is. also it's called self defense. if someting with large teeth is coming at me barking and running down the street i assume it's trying to kill me. that assumption is for my own safety. if you got a problem with that then come let your dog try to bite me sometime. i'll ram your but into the gorund with litigation! and a camera of course.

please go get your OC certification. both for liability and so that you know what it's like to have it used on yourself. i think "pepper spray" is over kill for most dog situations.

again with the nievety. you must live in a nice palce.

yeah. you come down here and let a pit chase ya some time. see how nice that lil doggy is. also it's called self defense. if someting with large teeth is coming at me barking and running down the street i assume it's trying to kill me. that assumption is for my own safety. if you got a problem with that then come let your dog try to bite me sometime. i'll ram your but into the gorund with litigation! and a camera of course. Before issuing (misspelled and punctuation-deprived) threats, read my follow-up post. What you describe, of course, would never happen, because I would never let my dog try to bite you. But this fact, and your pointless threat of litigation against me, proves my point: the "problem" is with human behavior.

Before issuing (misspelled and punctuation-deprived) threats, read my follow-up post. What you describe, of course, would never happen, because I would never let my dog try to bite you. But this fact, and your pointless threat of litigation against me, proves my point: the "problem" is with human behavior.

yup. people that have violent beasts as pets.

ya, just kick those dogs asses! they ain't nuthin but crap on legs far as i'm concerned! i tell you what. just chase em right back! and spray their asses! if no one is around you can beat em with a bat! :mad:

I agree with madpogue. This is either sick humor (and unfunny, sick humor at that), or it is just plain sick. It also doesn't add to the discussion. We cyclists have enough problems with dogs that we don't need cyclists advocating senselessly beating a dog as long as "no one is around." Dog spray is one thing. Beating a dog is another.

There is a solution, although an imperfect one: the "ignore list." Just click on the offender's name, then on "view public profile, then on "ignore list." You will no longer have to read the offender's messages. Of course, that means that non-registered users will not see rebuttals to idiotic posts, but it would at least stop us from egging on the miscreants. I already have one person on my list. I'm thinking about adding a second.

yup. people that have violent beasts as pets. Well, as anyone who has taken care of pits (to use your example) will tell you, that violence is trained into them. Yes, they have the innate capacity for it, but once again, their expression of it, their use of violence, is a result of how they were raised/trained by humans.

Well, as anyone who has taken care of pits (to use your example) will tell you, that violence is trained into them. Yes, they have the innate capacity for it, but once again, their expression of it, their use of violence, is a result of how they were raised/trained by humans.

not really. i've seen some that were trained at all kill stray dogs. i don't understand how you can view something that obviously was designed to be a carnivore, and not of only small animals and bug, as somehow innately harmless. we train them to be nice moreso than we train them to be a threat. (fighting dogs are excluded from this).

My spray can of "Halt" (pepper spray) rides on top of my bars, on all rides. This stuff is great, and I've only had to use it a couple of times. It sprays a tight stream probably 15 ft or so, so I am not too worried about it blowing back on me. I have a little plastic clip for it that snaps on the bars. I think I ordered it from Nashbar, but most LBS's (around here) have the spray, but I haven't seen the clip in the stores.

And like I've said before, works on small-brained mammals of any species...

not really. i've seen some that were trained at all kill stray dogs. i don't understand how you can view something that obviously was designed to be a carnivore, and not of only small animals and bug, as somehow innately harmless. we train them to be nice moreso than we train them to be a threat. (fighting dogs are excluded from this).

I would say that those who neglect to train their dogs train them to follow their instincts. For different breeds, there are different instincts. Responsible owners raise and train their dogs to behave in a responsible manner. These same owners will make sure that their dogs are not running loose, causing mischief. My dogs do not leave the house off-leash, except into our back yard. My dogs are accustomed to bicycles, and don't chase them, as they are not fun.

Tennis balls. Now those are fun. I can't take my dogs near a tennis court, so I don't. :)

This is slightly off the subject, but...
My father and I were talking about the dog issue, and he told me this story:
He was riding his old 2-stroke motorcycle on a country road when a dog ran out in front of him. There was no time to brake or swerve, so he tried to raise the front wheel to clear the dog. No such luck. The bike went down, and was badly damaged. Dad rolled the motorcycle onto the owner's porch, pounded on the door, and explained to the moron inside that the bike would reside on the porch untill he paid to have it fixed.
Apparently, the bike was soon repaired.

(sorry to troll. but this is and interesting argument to me) i still haven't understood how the owner is the only problem. the dog is the owners reesponsibility... but the dog is responsible too. the dog can act on it own and think on its own. it's not like a gun where the user is the offender. if people go buy animals that must be trained not to desire to injure people then doesn't that sort of tell that this thing should not be had?

not really. i've seen some that were trained at all kill stray dogs. i don't understand how you can view something that obviously was designed to be a carnivore, and not of only small animals and bug, as somehow innately harmless. we train them to be nice moreso than we train them to be a threat. (fighting dogs are excluded from this). Dogs weren't "designed to be a carnivore". Evolution is not design. Of course, most dogs, and most dog breeds, exist utterly outside the realm of evolution, because they are artificially, rather than naturally, selected. To that end, some are "designed" to be deadly, but once again, they are "designed" to be that way as a result of human breeding. And in fact, pits are more often trained to be a threat than they are trained to be nice, as they're mostly used as either fighting dogs or security dogs for organized criminals.

Carnivores don't see every other species as potential prey. That said, it doesn't really matter whether they're "innately harmless" (a claim I never made, BTW) or not. Every dog in this country is the property of some human, or, in the exceedingly rare case of ferals, the offspring thereof. Every dog's behavior is the responsiblity of the human who is charged with that dog's care.

(sorry to troll. but this is and interesting argument to me) i still haven't understood how the owner is the only problem. the dog is the owners reesponsibility... but the dog is responsible too. the dog can act on it own and think on its own. it's not like a gun where the user is the offender. if people go buy animals that must be trained not to desire to injure people then doesn't that sort of tell that this thing should not be had? Well, that's a larger philosophical question. I think it's perfectly valid to argue (though not on these forums) that there should be no "ownership" of companion animals. But then there's the "genie out of the bottle" issue. Since dogs, cats, etc. are so domesticated by humans, they have no natural habitat. But for those animals currently living with humans, it's the sole responsibility of those humans to make sure that the conduct/behavior of those animals does not harm others.

I could point you to sites where you can find debate, doctrine, etc. about the role of domesticated animals in human life, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so. Suffice it to say, there's no shortage of debate on the general subject, and on the myriad of topics/issues contained therein. If you think bicycling is fodder for controversy....

the "problem" is with human behavior.

Absolutely, 100%, completey and totally correct. There are laws in every state that require owners to control their animals. There are laws in every state that have penalties for owners who fail to comply.

Dogs will do what dogs are going to do, that is, unless properly trained, some will chase bicycles. The real reason most of them chase bicycles, or anything with wheels, is they want to play. Some, however, are intent on avenging your violation of their territory. That is what dogs do.

That being said, I wonder what causes all the problems others have with dogs. I have had very few in over two years of riding..so few you can count them on one hand. In one, DIS solved the problem. In another, the owner regained control of the dog, and in the third, I snarled back of the dog, stared it down, and showed it that I was the boss. I have used this tactic before I started riding, and it has never failed me.

I can tell the intention of almost every dog by their demeaner. Look into their eyes, watch their tails and ears. Those will tell you what the dog is going to do or wants to do. If all else fails, I seriously doubt there is a dog in the world who can hang with a cyclist. Outrun them.

My favorite encounter with an owner is a German Shephard that goes completely nutso whenever a bike goes by. This dog runs up and down his fenced in yard - which, to my knowledge, he cannot get out of - barking, snarling, and yelping. If this thing ever got out, I think it might want to take a chunk out of my leg.

One day, I had had it with the noise, so I said "Shut up!" The owner heard me and started to berate me because the dog had "a right" to bark. I told him "Yeah, and I have a right to tell him to shut up." The guy mulled that over as I pedaled off. I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but the dog has been a lot quieter lately.

My complaint is those who refuse to pick up after their dogs. Nothing says "Eeeeeuuuuuuwwwwww" like a pile of fresh dog poop in the middle of a bike trail.

Keep yourself between the dog and bike.

Is this correct? I would think it would be better to keep the bike between yourself and the dog. I don't think I'm ready to sacrafice my body so that my bike doesn't get scratched. (Maybe if I had a $5000 bike :) )

(sorry to troll. but this is and interesting argument to me) i still haven't understood how the owner is the only problem. the dog is the owners reesponsibility... but the dog is responsible too. the dog can act on it own and think on its own. it's not like a gun where the user is the offender. if people go buy animals that must be trained not to desire to injure people then doesn't that sort of tell that this thing should not be had?

Surely, you jest. I've had some smart dogs, but to glorify their brain process as "thinking" is a stretch. Dogs don't go through a thought process when they see you go by on a bike, weighing the pros and cons, wondering if you're packing "Halt" and considering if the fun is worth the possible consequences of thier actions. And I'm pretty sure that my dogs never gave a thought to their "responsibility" in any situation. Chasing is more instinctual than anything else. The problem is with their owners, who need to keep them restrained or train them out of their natural inclinations. I wish I could use "Halt" on the owners without getting arrested!

ya, just kick those dogs asses! they ain't nuthin but crap on legs far as i'm concerned! i tell you what. just chase em right back! and spray their asses! if no one is around you can beat em with a bat! :mad:

Not Funny. Not nice.

All of this dog talk brings back fond memories of my youth in rural Pennsylvania. Along my favorite riding route when I was in my late teens was a farmhouse. About a quarter mile down the road was the barn and silo. I guess since the barn was so far from the house that the farmer decided to use dogs to protect his interests. There were dogs tied near all of the doors to the barn and another 6 or 7 seven of them just running loose. These were German Shepard sized mutts (big and intimidating). On my first trip past there I thought I was going to be killed. I was chased by a pack of large angry dogs. After awhile it got to be more of a game, me vs. the dogs. Once I tried to go through at a walking speed. It didn’t work. At least I didn’t get bit, although they were close enough for me to feel their breath on my ankles. My best approach was to fly past them as fast and a quiet as my 17/18-year-old legs could push me. They hard part was that I couldn’t shift my noisy Ross 10-speed without them hearing it and running into the road to wait for me (It seamed like it was just as much of a game for them too). Now live in Northern Virginia/DC and the dogs are boring. You can ride by them waiving a T-bone steak and they just sit there. In PA the dogs would chase a bike on a car rack. I also claim that there are at least three types of bike chasing dogs. First is the dog that barks then chases. This is the easiest type to evade because they give you warning. Second is a dog that chases and then barks when he is at your ankles. This kind tends to scare the crap out of you and causes you to react without having time to think. The third type is total stealth, no barking ever. He just appears next to you and seems happy just to have someone to run with him. One of these dogs unfortunately went to doggie heaven when he got pushed under my pedals and the rear wheel got him (he was small). I felt bad when it happened but was unable to locate the owner. It too happened in farm country where the dogs just seamed to run free. Sorry if I rambled, just re-living my high school years.

I love dogs and for the most part they love me, but I won't hesitate to use Halt on any dog that is threatening. Sure, if I can outrun the dog I will, but that isn't always the case.

Of course, it helps that I know enough about dog behavior to be pretty good at predicting the intentions of a dog. Most (but not all) of the chasing dogs I've encountered just wanted to play and it was pretty obvious by their behavior. I was chased by a pack of near-feral dogs on an IL farmroad once many years ago - they weren't playing and I was climbing a steep hill at the time - that was an extremely close call.

I also carry a much stronger spray for use on any dog owner who takes exception to my protecting myself from their unrestrained/untrained pooch.

I think that, far from being cruel, a shot of Halt is a good thing for a dog that is prone to chasing bicycles or cars. Most dog owners don't realize it, but chasing is at least as dangerous for the dog as for the cyclist. A couple of times being hit with Halt while chasing is usually enough to train the dog out of chasing behavior.

Funny recent dog story - yesterday I was riding and I'd stopped to take a picture when a runner came by with his pooch. The pooch came over to me wagging his tail and then wouldn't leave with the runner, who had to come back and pick the pooch up. I was laughing and said "smart dog, he's figured out I'm not moving so he doesn't have to run to keep up!" The owner replied that the pooch was getting a bit tired...

John

Pepper spray is a good defense against dogs. In my area you don't need a certification to use it. As long as it is used as a defense only there are no problems from the police over the matter. I carry a can of halt on my bike. The first can I bought a long time ago at my LBS allows me to attach it to anywhere on the handle bars.

I have sprayed numerous dogs when it was needed. The time I warrant doing this is when the dog comes running after me on the public road & is snarling, growling & barking like it is going to attack me. Then & only then do I spray it. If the dog is barking in what I call a happy & excited tone, shows no posture of wanting to attack or not barking at all and just runs along side of me I don't spray it. The pepper spray I use has a red or orange dye in it. The owners do not like it when I turn their dog into a coughing, sneezing red or orange mess. And yes, I've had a few owners actually chase after me in their vehicle because I sprayed their dog. After having a tense conversation with them they decided they should leave before they get into trouble with the law. Never had a dog owner get violent with me, but I'm prepared to defend myself if I need to.

NIBYAK: great stories.I agree with your classifications 100%

And if anyone has second thoughts about spraying them: When a dog is triggered (they don't think and make up their mind, contrary to the opinion of some) to run at you, they don't look around to see if it is safe for them. I have had dogs nearly run over by cars because they run right into the road at me.

Teaching them to not chase you also makes it safer for them.