"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Braking for corners - why not?

After crits, it's not unusual to hear riders (who usually didn't place well) b*tching about unnecessary braking before corners. It's a well known phenomenon that any braking done for a turn necessary or not, tends to get amplified backward in the pack resulting in the back of the pack having to sprint out of the corners just to hold their wheel.

So the original brake-tapper is roundly criticized by all for not knowing how to corner.

But what's the problem? Isn't the object of bike racing to make others work as hard as possible. I mean, these riders are all experienced enough that they can deal with a slow down without crashing, so really they're just pissed that someone did something that made them work harder. But isn't that the point?

Am I missing something?

the problem is that it's not a tactic, just bad bike handling.

I dont know about bike racing but in motorcycle racing the person "passing" is responsible when cornering. The person aheads keeps their line and the person behind must calculate what to do in the situation.

Saying that, I would say it is a tactic as well as bike handling.

In what sense is it "bad handling"? If it results in your competitors having to work harder at small or no cost to you, what's bad about it?

Sure, it's not the most efficient way to ride, but you're causing even more inefficiency for people behind you. That's good, right?

Just tell all them people *****ing to ride up front. Problem solved!

You can argue with me all day. The guy hitting the brakes isn't doing it to slow down the guys behind him. He's doing it because he can't corner. By hitting the brakes, the guy in front of him who isn't hitting the brakes is opening a gap, which he himself will have to close. By hitting the brakes he's also making himself work harder.

Just tell all them people *****ing to ride up front. Problem solved!

:roflmao2: I love the idea that that would stop any complaining.

Never really thought of it that way before.

The guys up front might not intentionally be hitting the brakes to cause everyone behind them to work harder, but it certainly has that effect.

Yes I get pissed when I have to hit the brakes going through a turn, just cause I don't want to do the extra work sprinting out of the corner.

If you don't want to brake going through a turn, make sure you're in the top 5 going into it. :)

You can argue with me all day. The guy hitting the brakes isn't doing it to slow down the guys behind him. He's doing it because he can't corner. By hitting the brakes, the guy in front of him who isn't hitting the brakes is opening a gap, which he himself will have to close. By hitting the brakes he's also making himself work harder.

Unless blocking, but that's another thread

Correct. And yes, that does indeed happen, though it can be pretty dangerous if it's the kind of guy who grabs a handful of brake.

People who unexpectedly break on the front, especially in crits, make the races unfun and often unsafe. Braking more than necessary doesn't give you an advantage, if anything it makes it harder to hold your position in the field as stronger bike handlers will be able to capitalize on your mistake and show you the rear exit. Watch P12 races vs cat 5 races, there is a reason there is a lot less sudden braking in the upper cats, if it were a winning tactic you can bet they would be using it.

gsteinb, i'll write it for you.
_______________________

is this a bit?

You can argue with me all day. The guy hitting the brakes isn't doing it to slow down the guys behind him. He's doing it because he can't corner. By hitting the brakes, the guy in front of him who isn't hitting the brakes is opening a gap, which he himself will have to close. By hitting the brakes he's also making himself work harder.

Even as a newb racer, I can only agree with this.

And besides, just let a gap open up before the turn, and you won't have to brake just b/c the person in front of you did, problem solved.

I try to brake as little as possible in races, especially in the turns.

I remember when I first started racing I would be using some brake in almost every corner.. now I make it entire races without a single touch depending on the course.

grabbing brake before a corner, when unwarranted, is a pure jackass maneuver.

A crit I could see going a whole race without braking... but a road race, no way.

I spent over 25% of my last road race drifting. I'm sure a lot of that was on the brake too (going down hills).

A crit I could see going a whole race without braking... but a road race, no way.

I spent over 25% of my last road race drifting. I'm sure a lot of that was on the brake too (going down hills).


Feathering your brakes is a whole other thing, and I am pretty sure this is what you are talking about. I use it often to modulate my speed in the draft, I am pretty skinny so sitting up and puffing out my chest doesn't have the parachute effect that it does for some. I use it more to arrest acceleration rather that to reduce speed.

It's just annoying guys who can't or don't take a corner at speed. It's bike racing for heaven's sake.

In what sense is it "bad handling"? If it results in your competitors having to work harder at small or no cost to you, what's bad about it?

Sure, it's not the most efficient way to ride, but you're causing even more inefficiency for people behind you. That's good, right?

Ohhhhh. I get it. It's not that you can't corner well. You're actually braking on purpose because it's a legitimate bike racing tactic!

And so....since the Cat.5's brake in corners so much more than the Pro's, then that must mean they are actually better tacticians than the pro's.

Sure they are.....

:roflmao:

Bob

Ohhhhh. I get it. It's not that you can't corner well. You're actually braking on purpose because it's a legitimate bike racing tactic!

And so....since the Cat.5's brake in corners so much more than the Pro's, then that must mean they are actually better tacticians than the pro's.

Sure they are.....

:roflmao:

Bob

I'm just asking the question. Clearly there is more braking in the 5 field than the pro field. I don't understand why that is the case. And I don't see why it's not a legitimate tactic, which is not to say that it's an effective one.

In a recent crit guys back in the field were *****ing about the drop in speed going into turn two. They obviously never got close enough to the front to feel the headwind we were slamming into at the front exiting turn two.

I'm just asking the question. Clearly there is more braking in the 5 field than the pro field. I don't understand why that is the case. And I don't see why it's not a legitimate tactic, which is not to say that it's an effective one.

You're close to answering your own inquiry with that last statement. For something to be a legitimate tactic, it usually needs to be an effective one.

I'm just asking the question. Clearly there is more braking in the 5 field than the pro field. I don't understand why that is the case. And I don't see why it's not a legitimate tactic, which is not to say that it's an effective one.



Did you read any of the responses? And you still don't get it?

You can argue with me all day. The guy hitting the brakes isn't doing it to slow down the guys behind him. He's doing it because he can't corner. By hitting the brakes, the guy in front of him who isn't hitting the brakes is opening a gap, which he himself will have to close. By hitting the brakes he's also making himself work harder.

X2 to the 1,000th
Speaking in terms of any crit I've ever been in:
Get the F&#K off the brakes or get in back.

I'm just asking the question. Clearly there is more braking in the 5 field than the pro field. I don't understand why that is the case. And I don't see why it's not a legitimate tactic, which is not to say that it's an effective one.

Hello,

Why isn't it legitimate? Causing people to crash may be one reason. :mad:

Granted, people following are supposed to be protecting their front wheels and paying attention, but a pack of riders screaming into a corner that they know they can easily take at 25 MPH and then some yahoo at the front decides to brake-check the guy behind him as a tactic causing massive accordion effect and a crash? If you're the brake-check guy you better have your car pre-packed at the end of the race.

Why do people legitimately brake going into a corner? Because they don't have the skills to corner fast.

Better tactic for the leader going into a corner to make the guy behind work more? Learn how to corner fast and attack coming out of the corner.

Did you read any of the responses?
Yes. All of them I think.


And you still don't get it?
If "it" is the reason it's not an advantageous tactic, then yes.
Edit: cleave has posted the first comment that articulates some objective reason that I can understand. Particularly the one about attacking out of the corner giving better results.


X2 to the 1,000th
Speaking in terms of any crit I've ever been in:
Get the F&#K off the brakes or get in back.
I hate this attitude. It's never anyone's responsibility to get behind you. If you don't like the position you're in, then it's your prerogative to move up.

I'm just asking the question. Clearly there is more braking in the 5 field than the pro field. I don't understand why that is the case. And I don't see why it's not a legitimate tactic, which is not to say that it's an effective one.

I've read Prehn, Wenzel, Friel, Carmichael, and numerous other books and articles that discuss bike racing tactics. I have yet to see anyone suggest unneccessary braking, in a corner or elsewhere, as a legitimate racing tactic.

Bob

You don't need to like or agree with the statement.
This behaviour shows lack of skill and experience.

I've read Prehn, Wenzel, Friel, Carmichael, and numerous other books and articles that discuss bike racing tactics. I have yet to see anyone suggest unneccessary braking, in a corner or elsewhere, as a legitimate racing tactic.

Bob

I understand that the books you've read have not mentioned it. So in order to answer my question, it must be explained why they have not.

Just so everything's clear, I'm not convinced that it is an optimal strategy, especially given the cat5 vs pro race example.

You don't need to like or agree with the statement.
This behaviour shows lack of skill and experience.

I don't dislike or disagree with it. As far as I can tell, it's actually true. There is probably even a good reason for it. That's what I'm looking for, but it's starting to sound pretty dogmatic.

But there doesn't even need to be a good reason for it for me to do it. I mean, I shave my legs, which is pretty much pointless. At least whatever small benefit it has is not significantly greater than the minor annoyance of having to shave them.

But I have found one thing though with this thread. Raising the question alone seems to universally invoke the mighty rage of all. Actually, that alone could be a sufficient reason never to consider the braking, which is again, not to say there isn't a better reason.

Yes. All of them I think.


If "it" is the reason it's not an advantageous tactic, then yes.




ok

It is simply not possible under many circumstances for an entire pack to go through a corner without braking. It's the combination of an accordion effect (squishing tighter, in this case) from the deceleration into a corner and the effect of the draft. The guys in the back making a big stink about this don't understand the dynamics of how a pack works, but they know that Real Cyclists (which, in their minds, they certainly are) Don't Brake in Corners. Taking a corner slows riders down even if they don't touch the brakes. With a big enough pack, the effect of that speed change can propagate backwards at a higher rate than the riders go through the corner at. And it becomes necessary for riders a certain distance back to use their brakes to avoid stacking up into the guys in front of them. Whether it happens depends upon the course, the speed of the pack and the size of the pack. Necessary and predictable braking under those circumstances is a good thing. Braking unnecessarily is, of course, a jackass move, but that's rarely what's happening, in my experience. Yeah, there are a lot of inexperienced riders in Cat 4 and 5 races who brake unnecessarily, but that's why they're in Cat 4 and 5. If the Real Cyclists in the back have such a problem with that, they're welcome to come to the front and show everyone else how it is done.

It can get really irritating to be one of the riders mid-pack who is forced to brake, with guys further behind you yelling "No brakes in corners!" Right, you idiots, so instead of braking I should run up the rear wheel of the guy in front of me and cause a stack-up? Yeah, I bet you would love that.

Thanks grolby. The total amount of insight in this thread just jumped about ten-fold.

The Wilmington crit is a perfect example. Turn three is ballistic fast into a slight uphill. Turn four leads to the false flat start finish straight. The first three guys through turn three can basically coast to turn four. Riders 6-10 need to pedal, but can generally get by without any braking. Beyond that you're SOL. You're on the brakes, then out of the saddle. Hit turn four and gaps have opened and you're sprinting around riders to get back on. Try it for 20 laps or so ;) The field shatters. If you're hitting the brakes you're not only hurting everyone behind you, but you're taking yourself out of the game. The strongest and smartest riders know where the sweet spot in the race is, and those are the guys who are ultimately going to podium because they're conserving energy and are obviously strong enough to stay where they need to be in the race.

I enjoy sitting in the back and yelling "hey get off the brakes you morons!"

I know it has no reason and no effect, but hey if you can't annoy your fellow bike racers, then why pin a number, ya know?

I'm just asking the question. Clearly there is more braking in the 5 field than the pro field. I don't understand why that is the case. And I don't see why it's not a legitimate tactic, which is not to say that it's an effective one.


That is the point you keep missing is that, in order for something to be considered a legitimate tactic it must first be effective. Braking needlessly durring a race has been thoroughly shown to be ineffective. Now do you get it? :crash:

Bikes don't have brake lights, so it's more dangerous when people brake before turns than it is in, say, a car.

It's not that hard to learn to pedal through a turn. The hardest part for many people is letting go of control. Just do it. You'll see that it can be done. Once you love it, you'll move on to another thread about clipping pedals.

I understand that the books you've read have not mentioned it. So in order to answer my question, it must be explained why they have not.

Just so everything's clear, I'm not convinced that it is an optimal strategy, especially given the cat5 vs pro race example.

Because it is unsafe. A no responsible racer is going to recommend an usafe tactic.

The Wilmington crit is a perfect example. Turn three is ballistic fast into a slight uphill. Turn four leads to the false flat start finish straight. The first three guys through turn three can basically coast to turn four. Riders 6-10 need to pedal, but can generally get by without any braking. Beyond that you're SOL. You're on the brakes, then out of the saddle. Hit turn four and gaps have opened and you're sprinting around riders to get back on. Try it for 20 laps or so ;) The field shatters. If you're hitting the brakes you're not only hurting everyone behind you, but you're taking yourself out of the game. The strongest and smartest riders know where the sweet spot in the race is, and those are the guys who are ultimately going to podium because they're conserving energy and are obviously strong enough to stay where they need to be in the race.

I did two crits last weekend with >90 degree turns, so I know the feeling well. I suppose the best use for such a corner is to be near the front going in and then attack exiting the corner, putting any chase at a disadvantage.

That is the point you keep missing is that, in order for something to be considered a legitimate tactic it must first be effective. Braking needlessly durring a race has been thoroughly shown to be ineffective. Now do you get it? :crash:

Yes. Thanks.


Bikes don't have brake lights, so it's more dangerous when people brake before turns than it is in, say, a car.

It's not that hard to learn to pedal through a turn. The hardest part for many people is letting go of control. Just do it. You'll see that it can be done. Once you love it, you'll move on to another thread about clipping pedals.
I'm talking about a race, not traffic. I seem to have given some people the false idea that I am incapable of handling a corner in a crit without braking. That's not true. I've raced about 25 cat 3 crits so far this year with a fair number of top 5 finishes. I'm past the pedal clipping stage. Usually.


Because it is unsafe. A no responsible racer is going to recommend an usafe tactic.
It's certainly possible to do it unsafely, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's possible to brake in such a way that riders are given adequate time to respond. I seen plenty of braking in any of the tight corners in all the crits I've done.

I've read Prehn, Wenzel, Friel, Carmichael, and numerous other books and articles that discuss bike racing tactics. I have yet to see anyone suggest unneccessary braking, in a corner or elsewhere, as a legitimate racing tactic.

Bob

Not unnecessary braking, but Eddy B, in his book Road Bicycle Racing advocates slowing the field when blocking by getting to the front of the field, slowing slightly, and taking an outside to inside line (late apex).

Since you will be crossing most of the field with this line, you will end up interrupting the planned lines of a bunch of people, and they will have to slow down when they run out of space to the inside. He warns that this is a potentially dangerous technique. If you're subtle, it can be effective.

Better tactic for the leader going into a corner to make the guy behind work more? Learn how to corner fast and attack coming out of the corner.

I like this tactic and use it a lot. If on the front, I like to ease slightly on the straight and then attack going into the corner. Just create a little gap going in and that gap will grow and grow as it passes back through the field. Not that I'm on the front much, but if I am, I might as well make others work too.

accelerating after slowing down requires more physiologic cost for me more than acclerating out of a corner that I maintained a constant speed through.

If someone in front of me taps their brakes, I either stay in their draft while they accelerate so they're doing more work than me to get back up to speed, or pass them to maintain my momentum, therefore less work for me to go faster than the brake man.

^ what he said.

does anyone here pedal out of the saddle through corners? Just wondering.





accelerating after slowing down requires more physiologic cost for me more than acclerating out of a corner that I maintained a constant speed through.

If someone in front of me taps their brakes, I either stay in their draft while they accelerate so they're doing more work than me to get back up to speed, or pass them to maintain my momentum, therefore less work for me to go faster than the brake man.


You won't be able to do that so easily if you are on the inside of a corner between a bunch of other riders.... It's a great tactic if you are in a position to take advantage of it!

does anyone here pedal out of the saddle through corners? Just wondering.







You won't be able to do that so easily if you are on the inside of a corner between a bunch of other riders.... It's a great tactic if you are in a position to take advantage of it!

cornering and proper positioning aren't tactics.

cornering and proper positioning aren't tactics.

I have been corrected.

I have been corrected.

:lol:

also, no on the standing while pedaling through a corner. coming out of the corner (after its apex), yes. going into a corner (before you lean a quick 1 to 2 pedal strokes gives you speed to carry through it), yes. mid corner, no.

It is simply not possible under many circumstances for an entire pack to go through a corner without braking.

Many? Maybe in the lower cats. But at the last NRC race I did we averaged 30+ MPH on a tight 8 turn course and there was very little braking involved.

Unnecessary braking is not a "tactic". It's simply dangerous. If it WAS a tactic why not do it on the straights too? I mean, same effect right? And all Brakeboy is doing is screwing things up 8 riders back, the guy's sitting on Brakeboy's wheel just sit while Brakeboy has to bring them back up to speed.

I've always found railing a corner at warp speed to be far more effective for creating gaps. But then, I can race my bike.

And BTW, I just go around the guy hitting the brakes; another reason why it's not a "tactic".

does anyone here pedal out of the saddle through corners? Just wondering.





That would be a bad idea because you'd be unweighting your rear wheel. Unless it was a slow corner uphill, you're asking for trouble.

You do more damage to the back by maintaining a high cornering speed. There is going to be an accordian anyway, and those at the back will just have to accelerate that much harder.

Look at riders who brake too much as an opportunity, easy prey. They help keep prize money up and entry fees down. :lol:

Not unnecessary braking, but Eddy B, in his book Road Bicycle Racing advocates slowing the field when blocking by getting to the front of the field, slowing slightly, and taking an outside to inside line (late apex).

Since you will be crossing most of the field with this line, you will end up interrupting the planned lines of a bunch of people, and they will have to slow down when they run out of space to the inside. He warns that this is a potentially dangerous technique. If you're subtle, it can be effective.

Blocking IS a legitimate racing tactic. Braking unneccessarily is NOT the right way to block. It's just a dangerous, bonehead move.

Bob