Folding Bikes - Folding trike for MS sufferer

(Not sure if this would be better in the electric forum or here. I've chosen here as it's much easier to upgrade a folder to electric than vice-versa.)

I've got a friend with multiple sclerosis. If you've had the good fortunate not to have had contact with MS, it's a terrible disease that slowly saps your ability to live. Your brain is still there, but your muscular and nervous coordination is not. Long story short, he is rapidly deteriorating, can no longer drive a car or walk more than a few hundred meters at a time, and we would like to find him some sort of mobility solution as a present.

We've come to a tricycle as the best solution. While our friend can still bike, he has increasing difficulties keeping his balance, especially when tired or fatigued from the exertion of pedaling. So while this tends to point toward electric, as a boost for his energy level, electric bikes are too top-heavy, and even if they weren't the loss of balance is still a critical issue.

All I've seen in the way of electric trikes is weird adult versions of what we rode as kids. They don't look to me like real bikes (am I being snotty?), but instead like something more like a gimic. Three speeds, crappy distance and recharge times, etc. Nothing like the nice electric bikes I can see in our LSBs. Moreoever, these trikes don't really seem to be able to fold à la Bike Friday, which would be essential for him as he will be living in London and Bristol, and thus would probably be using trains on a regular basis.

I think that a recumbent bike is out of the question, for any number of reasons that are immediately obvious if you have prior experience with MS patients. However, those seem to me the only trikes that are not just two chinese steel behemoths welded together. (I mean, come on, if we can make a bike weigh 9kg, and folders 11kg, a trike should only come in at a couple kg more. Not 20+)

Anyone have any ideas? Training wheels on an electric Brompton?

A venerable Italian folder manufacturer has a well proven folding trike, check their local dealers in your country:

http://www.diblasi.it/Folding_Tricycles.asp?Prd=Tricycles&Pag=Gruppo&Lng=en

So does Pacific, who are a top notch folder manufacturer and also specialise in a range of bikes for special needs:

http://www.pacific-cycles.com/product3.asp?cat1=1&cat2=7&pid=13

If you were in the U.S.
http://worksmancycles.com/

There is also The Greenspeed GT 3 (http://greenspeed.com.au/gt3.html).
http://greenspeed.com.au/webimages/gt3_details/gt3_main.jpg

How small of a fold do you need? Greenspeed (http://www.greenspeed.com.au/gshome.html)and HP Velotecknik (http://www.hpvelotechnik.com/) both do folding "performance" trikes. These have larger wheels, so are easy to set up with a wheel / hub electric motor (Bionix or Greenwheel or e+ flex kits), matter of fact, I think both offer to custom build them with one or more of those motors.

That pacific is sweet, and compact, but might be hard to mod for a motor. That Diblasi could easily have one of the front wheel hub motors (can't remember the brand name - maybe ecomoto or ezeebike), and may be more comfortable than the GS or HP as long as your friend can sit upright. The HP / GS will be more comfortable as long as he can get down into them.

I don't know if any folding trikes could utilize the Gruber Assist (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/electric-motor-hidden-in-this-stealth-ebike.php) system...

Ooh... digging into Worksman's sight, that HGR3inOK linked to, they make an Electric Folding Trike (http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page47.html) with the option of a seat belt and back rest!

GeorgeBaby--

How low is that? I'd have serious doubts about the ability of an MS patient to get on and off bikes that are too low.

In a similar vein, I saw the Scorpion FX and that looks like a distinct possibility with their new "high-rise" seat. It gets 46cm off the ground, which is pretty much chair height.

For both of those two, I wonder if the folding process can be completed by someone without them getting on the ground. Any insight?

Bangkok--

That CarryAll looks like a distinct possibility. It's compact, would work really well in a city (and probably nowhere else), should be easy to fold without requiring great dexterity, and I can probably figure out some way to shoehorn an electric motor onto it. It wouldn't have to be much, even 100W would be fine.

Anyone have experience with the CarryAll?

If your friend is travelling alone, do you think he will be able to manage to carry the folded trike? Even a folding bike can be a handful to carry around folded if you have far to go, let alone an electric one. Here I'm also speaking of the effort needed by an able bodied person.

As for wattage, I have recently helped an 85 year old gent to upgrade from the old mountain bike I gave him some time ago to a Salisbury LION bike. He likes it, but finds it heavy to wheel around. This bike has a 200 watt motor and is a pretty lightweight effort for an electric bike. Also, while it is fine on the flat it very rapidly fades on a hill necessitating lots of pedal input... I'm thinking that your 100 watt idea might prove most inadequate. Somehow, at least in this Salisbury iteration, the 200 watt nominal power seems not to translate into what I'd expect it to be when a hill comes along.

I would seriously recommend that you buy a ready made package unless you are an engineer. If you make something up out of a kit, you won't get much sympathy from the seller if your friend finds it unacceptable for some reason, whereas if he can try it out before purchasing anything, he can walk away from the deal if it doesn't suit him.

Just a few points to try and avoid ending up with an expensive disappointment.

you got that right EvilV
no doubt
100 watts is not worth the effort and weight ..I hava Dahon with a 500 W and very expensive lightweight battery .... I still consider the 350 watt bionix system worthwhile, but 250 is too weak already

there are some folding trikes.... can they be folded and handled easily ? No they are still a large package and very heavy compared to a 9 kg bike add an electric motor and they become VERY heavy real fast ...





thor

Interesting, they make an electric CarryMe...

http://www.pacific-cycles.com/product3.asp?cat1=31&cat2=33&pid=28

If they already do that, I'm sure they could probably make an electric CarryAll.

--sam

If your friend is travelling alone, do you think he will be able to manage to carry the folded trike? Even a folding bike can be a handful to carry around folded if you have far to go, let alone an electric one. Here I'm also speaking of the effort needed by an able bodied person.

A very good point, and one we're giving much thought to. I'm seeing it more like he decides to go somewhere in the city, to see a friend for instance, and takes a bus or gets a ride home. In any case, there would be people around to give him a hand.

Two things I really like about the CarryAll is that it appears to be A) stable when folded and B) rollable like a dolly. This would seem to solve a lot of the problems of moving it around as even us able-bodied people would find the trike package bulky.


As for wattage, I have recently helped an 85 year old gent to upgrade from the old mountain bike I gave him some time ago to a Salisbury LION bike. He likes it, but finds it heavy to wheel around. This bike has a 200 watt motor and is a pretty lightweight effort for an electric bike. Also, while it is fine on the flat it very rapidly fades on a hill necessitating lots of pedal input... I'm thinking that your 100 watt idea might prove most inadequate. Somehow, at least in this Salisbury iteration, the 200 watt nominal power seems not to translate into what I'd expect it to be when a hill comes along.

I would seriously recommend that you buy a ready made package unless you are an engineer.

As it turns out, I am! :thumb: Moreover, I do research in an electrical machinery laboratory on hybrid vehicles. So I guess I'm a bit lucky in the regard.

As for the power, I think that most people see an electric motor as assistance for climbing a hill. I don't think my friend will be climbing any hills at all. He simply wouldn't have the energy. I'm seeing this more as a way to get around a flat city in a 1-3km radius without having to depend on buses, taxis, and friends. The 100W motor would just serve to give him a bigger range, not allow him to go into terrain he otherwise couldn't handle.

That being said, it all comes down to the power density of a 200W motor vs. a 100W one. If it's an insignificant weight difference, then by all means the 200W is the way to go. However, if I can build a small 100W booster with a small 500g li-on battery, a CarryAll would still retain its portability. It's when I start putting on 3kg bionix systems that things could get a little too heavy and bulky.

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming, please!

Good luck then with your design. I SERIOUSLY reckon that a nominal power of 100 watts is too low to achieve anything. The 200 watt system I rode yesterday offered worthwhile help especially in the pedal assist mode. It did have the advantage that it would send a two wheeler along at about 14mph on the flat in throttle mode, though the slightest incline (and I mean really slight) would make it slow significantly. This was a hub motor, and I have no idea of how efficient it was. If it had been driving through the gears it would probably have been more efficient on varying terrain, because you could match the motors speed to its best torque output.

This calculator might be of some use to you in working out how much power you will need.

http://www.noping.net/english/espeed.html

Looking at the results, I feel I may have misjudged the little motor. I felt it wasn't putting out its nominal power, but on second thoughts after messing around with the calculator, it probably wasn't far off

doesnt fit the bill .... looky here .... interesting at first sight but when you look deeper looses much of his luster right away .. besides its vapourware ...

https://www.securedcontent.net/pedego/images/trike/bg_rtrike_1.jpg

going back to the original post .. I would think that a person with MS needs stability and some more stability .. that is only achied in a trike and I dont mean the smallisch 12 inch tire trike.... those are heavy 40 to 60 lbs due to all kinds of extra tubes and stuff ... those are super fun with a bionix
http://www.sunbicycles.com/product_detail.php?short_code=T3+CX+Tadpole&cl1=RECUMBENT

I think you cannot get a stable enough bike which is easy to fold and carry ... but the trikes with a bionix could be motored home ....

thor

You know it's quite possible that your friend could ride the Carryall without electric assist given the low effort required to pedal it. I believe the final drive ratio is something like 36-38 gear inches or so. And as you stated, you could still figure out how to adapt an electric drive if this person still needed it.

Something to consider.

Edward Wong III
Qile Duo 5 Speed 20" Folder


GeorgeBaby--

How low is that? I'd have serious doubts about the ability of an MS patient to get on and off bikes that are too low.

In a similar vein, I saw the Scorpion FX and that looks like a distinct possibility with their new "high-rise" seat. It gets 46cm off the ground, which is pretty much chair height.

For both of those two, I wonder if the folding process can be completed by someone without them getting on the ground. Any insight?

Bangkok--

That CarryAll looks like a distinct possibility. It's compact, would work really well in a city (and probably nowhere else), should be easy to fold without requiring great dexterity, and I can probably figure out some way to shoehorn an electric motor onto it. It wouldn't have to be much, even 100W would be fine.

Anyone have experience with the CarryAll?

The DiBlasi trike (http://www.diblasi.co.uk/Folding_Tricycles.asp?Prd=R32&Pag=Prodotto) is very good and Here's another option Industrial Bicycles (Here's another option,)

Hope this helps, good luck!

Safe triking! :thumb:

If the person is suffering from MS, more attention should be paid to a bike that will work with this person's needs and less to whether or not it folds.

The small but well-regarded (in DC anyway) Bikes@Vienna (http://www.draisin.us/) sells Draisin (http://www.draisin.com/) bikes and trikes, designed to be highly customizable for all sorts of special needs.

Talking about special needs and pedalled transportation:


I saw a paralysed guy pedalling a hand pedalled wheel chair the other day. He was going along quite well, but it looked like hard work. His whole body above the waist was involved in the action. He was probably doing about 8mph on the flat.

When I was a kid, I used to see severely disabled old men from WW1 and some of them had hand pedalled carriages.