Folding Bikes - Downtube + S/A Hub Shifting Problems

I took delivery of my 2009 Downtube Mini one week ago today, and so far I've put over 200kms on it. The overall quality certainly isn't in the same league as our Dahon Curve SL, but then again, neither was the price.

My main frustration and disappointment is with the Sturmey Archer XRF8 hub. I've been fiddling with it constantly for the past week and 200 kilometres, and still can't get it to work properly. The problem concerns mainly 3rd and 7th gears. If I adjust the cable tension so that it shifts in and out of 3rd OK, then it won't shift in and out of 7th. If I set it up so that 7th works, then I have the same problem shifting in and out of 3rd. As an example, when I set it up so that 3rd works fine, it will shift OK from 6th to 7th, but then when I shift from 8th to 7th, it slips or misses altogether. Adjust it so the 6-7-8 shifts work OK, and then 3rd slips or misses altogether. Sometimes I'll think I've found the "sweet spot" and be riding for 15-20 minutes, then 7th will slip about half a crank rotation for no reason at all, without even a gear change.

So far, I have done the following:

1.) Adjusted the cable tension so that the yellow triangle is between the 2 lines, and played with that setting, both up and down toward each side. I have been doing this constantly, using the barrel adjuster under the shifter while riding. Still can't find the "sweet spot". (And yes, I do stop pedaling when I shift gears.)

2.) Lubricated the cable and housing with LPS Magnum Teflon Lubricant.

3.) Lubricated inside the shifter mechanism with LPS Silicon spray lube.

4.) Made sure the right hand grip was not pressing too tightly against the rotating shifter mechanism.

5.) Removed the rear wheel, adjusted the cones so that they weren't too tight or loose, and made sure the interface between the fulcrum lever and hub was well greased.

6.) Adjusted chain tension so that it was neither too tight or loose.

I've pretty much run out of ideas, and would like to hear of your experiences with your Downtube + Sturmey Archer XRF8 hub. How well does yours work? Flawlessly, hit or miss most of the time, or somewhere in between? If you did have problems initially and corrected them, what did you do?

I'm really getting frustrated with this, and am beginning to regret not buying another Dahon Curve SL. Ours works perfectly, and has never required any adjustment, ever. I love the looks of the Downtube Mini, and really want to get it sorted out, but it's beginning to give me a bad case of buyer's remorse.

I got mine to work by putting the arrow a bit past the lines. Its still not 100%, though. The 3rd gear still slips from time to time. I vow not to get another 8 speed SA hub equipped bike from this experience. If your bike is still under warranty, you might consider returning it.

I have found that folding bikes are really hard on cables, I would replace the shifter cable and see if that helps. I have a SRAM S7 that I could never get to work right, until I finally replaced the cable/shifter mechanism and then all was better.

(And yes, I do stop pedaling when I shift gears.)

How can you be so sure? It's a difficult habit to shake.

You might also try shifting as much as possible. I can't definitely say this isn't a placebo effect, but I've made it a habit to rotate between 1st and 8th once or twice before I start riding or when waiting at traffic lights and I believe it has helped work out snags/kinks in the shifting.

Make sure the non-drive side cone is properly adjusted. I had similar problems with mine until I loosened mine.

Make sure the non-drive side cone is properly adjusted. I had similar problems with mine until I loosened mine.

Please elaborate, with pics if possible. Do I need to disassemble the wheel completely? TIA!

+1 on adjusting the arrow just on the high side, I still get the slipping every now and then so I just check it and tune it.
There has been a fair bit of criticism of the XRF8 hub on BF, a few bad hubs here and there?
What disappoints me about them is I bought 2 of them because the late Sheldon Brown recommended them for SWBs.

Please elaborate, with pics if possible. Do I need to disassemble the wheel completely? TIA!

The non-drive side cone on IGH hubs is the same as on any hub. You can loosen/tighten it with a spanner.

If your wheel has no play in it when tightened in the droputs and trying to move it left-right, try loosening the left cone just a little and try adjusting/riding it again.

Little bit of adjustment at a time. You shouldn't have much, if any, play when you're done.

Good luck! You have encountered the very problem that gives this hub a bad reputation.

The left side cone adjustment, IIRC, requires 15 and 17 mm cone wrenches, and in my experience can either alleviate or exacerbate the problem.

Possibly your shift cable is getting caught somewhere when you fold/unfold, in which case it will not shift correctly until reseated properly. I used to have this problem before I shortened the cable housing as much as possible.

When you upshift (1 to 2, etc.) you pull against the internal spring, so in my experience upshifts are more reliable than downshifts (2 to 1). If you have trouble finding a gear in a downshift, such as can't find gear 4 when shifting from 5, it may help to shift all the way to 3 and then up to 4. Sadly, by the time you do that, you may need 3, or even 2.

For the same reason, shifting in the lower range seems to be more reliable than the upper range; I would often find gears 7 and 8 unreliable even though the others were fine.

A few months ago my hub got so bad I took it to a very good bike shop for overhaul. It had some 5500 miles on it. The head mechanic there has been working on Sturmey Archer hubs for over 30 years. Carefully following Sturmey Archer's published instructions for disassembly, he ... well, okay, he completely destroyed my hub. And so for the cost of the labor involved, he replaced the whole rear wheel with the newer version of the hub (XRF8-w). Now, with about 400 miles on the new hub so far, I have still had no problems at all. The jury is still out; but I'm thinking the new hub is really better.

Well, I was out riding this morning, and the hub died completely. Stuck in 1st gear. Luckily, I was in my neighborhood, so getting back home wasn't a problem.

Upon examining the bike, I discovered that there is now no tension whatsoever on the rotating part of the hub that the shift cable is attached to. So apparently the spring inside the hub is now broken.

I contacted both Yan at Downtube, and Cycle9 (where I bought the bike) yesterday, and Yan said I probably had a defective hub, and he would send me a replacement. I just e-mailed him again today, and told him that the hub was now dead. I sure hope he comes through with a new one A.S.A.P.

Does anyone know if I would be able to fit a Shimano Alfine 8spd hub on my Downtube Mini? If the replacement S/A hub gives me any grief, I would definitely consider replacing it with the Alfine, if it's possible.

Autoworker, can you confirm that the current Downtubes are being supplied with the newer, type W S/A 8 speed hubs? There is quite a lot of the old 8 speeds in stock is why I ask.

I don't know about other Downtube models, but my Mini has the old XRF8 (no "W") hub. Since the Mini has been discontinued, I would assume that they all have the older model.

If Yan sends me a replacement, I sure hope it's a newer "W" model !!!

Oof! Well, that sucks, but I'm kinda glad your hub failed completely and you'll get a replacement-- way better than having a lemon that's hard to adjust.

You can use a Nexus or Alfine hub, but remember they are geared different from the Sturmey Archer. Play with Sheldon Brown's Gear Calculator (http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/internal.html) to see what chainring / cog combination you'll need. You will probably have to change your chain ring to get the gearing into a reasonable range, but it should be possible.

Since the Mini has been discontinued...

:eek:

http://www.downtube.com/ss-index.html

Does anyone know if I would be able to fit a Shimano Alfine 8spd hub on my Downtube Mini? If the replacement S/A hub gives me any grief, I would definitely consider replacing it with the Alfine, if it's possible.

Dropout spacing is different. Although I recall reading that some people are able to reduce the Nexus OLD.

Well, I was out riding this morning, and the hub died completely. Stuck in 1st gear.

Now this really worries me. :(

Mine is 3 years old, so no more warranty on mine.

I have wondered if the Mini would benefit from a proper derailer cable. Instead it comes with a brake cable housing which is not used for derailers for reasons of lack of accuracy. The SA8 hub is very finicky so needs a derailer cable to get maximum out of the hub.

That said, the hub on my R20 has the proper cable housing and still becomes iffy if dirty. So keep the works at the back clean especially the cable pulley groove.

Up to the point where the hub finally died, I was thinking about cable kinks and dirt. Jur makes an important point about the accuracy of the cable. It also seems almost as if the indexing on the twist grip might be slightly off and that consequently, even though all is ok for most gears, some are marginally off the perfect alignment when the indexed twist grip is engaged.

I have wondered if the Mini would benefit from a proper derailer cable. ...

I changed my cable housing to some generic derailleur housing (I got it from Nashbar). It did help, but not drastically.

I have wondered if the Mini would benefit from a proper derailer cable. Instead it comes with a brake cable housing which is not used for derailers for reasons of lack of accuracy. The SA8 hub is very finicky so needs a derailer cable to get maximum out of the hub.

That said, the hub on my R20 has the proper cable housing and still becomes iffy if dirty. So keep the works at the back clean especially the cable pulley groove.

You mean the shifter cable on the mini isn't inside a bundle of wires like a typical compressionless shifter cable? My 8H has the proper kind compressionless housing.

Is the one on the Mini the one you had fail?

Anyone have confirmation that the Mini is indeed discontinued, or is Yan simply out of 2009s and has taken the Mini off the product page until the 2010s come in?

Yes I have the same problem with my mini dt. Try not to pedal while you shift gears. I tried not to do this too often and don't encounter problem with the gear slip too much.

is the new XRK8 S80W on the 2009.5 downtube 8fh ?

Likewise me too with the problems. You know, may be what we have to recognise is that DT are the best among the cheaper folders, but the one of cheaper folders is what they are, and you get what you, etc etc. I brought mine back from the states, but now I use it as a shopper locally (and it is great for that, really convenient) than for the heavy duty commuting or light touring I envisaged; so with hindsight think I should have got someting like a Swift. For the commuting I guess I will have to go brompton (but if you want more than two gears that too isn't ideal)....

I totally agree with you, gringo_gus. In the following link, a fellow member wanted to know if there was anyone in Boston with a Downtube that he could check out in the flesh:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=560421

Here's my reply to him:

"...I don't live in Boston (or even in the U.S.A.), and I don't own a Downtube 8FH. However, I do own a Downtube Mini, which I have owned for less than a month, and 2 Dahons (Curve SL and Jetstream P8), which I have had for more than a year. In my experience, the Dahons are way above the Downtube in quality, fit and finish. I'm afraid that if you already own a Dahon, you might be disappointed with a Downtube. I know I am.

The seatpost on my Downtube bent on my first ride (35 km ride, and I am 5'9''and weigh 170lbs). I had problems getting the Sturmey Archer 8spd hub to shift properly right from the beginning. After about a week, it died altogether. An internal spring broke, and it's stuck in first gear. I called Yan about the seatpost, and he mailed me another one, which arrived yesterday. It's exactly the same as the one that bent, so I'm sure it will too. Tomorrow I'm going to a metal shop to buy a piece of aluminum rod 7/8" in diameter by 17.5" long to install inside the seat tube to keep it from bending.

I called Yan a second time about the defective hub, and he said he'd send me a replacement, which I am still waiting for. I e-mailed him and asked if he was sending an entire rear wheel and hub, or just the hub. He said he's just sending me the hub and shifter, so I'll have to pay my LBS to swap out the hub on my rear wheel. Needless to say, I'm not impressed.

The Dahon Curve SL has a Nexus 8spd hub, which has performed flawlessly from day one. It also came with fenders and Ergon grips. The Downtube came with crappy rubber grips which I immediately cut off, and replaced with Ergons. I also installed a set of fenders and upgraded the seat and pedals. The brakes and brake levers on the Downtube are no-name, and look it. I'll probably replace them this winter. I'm even contemplating replacing the Sturmey Archer hub with an Sram or Nexus, since they can be shifted while pedaling, wheras with the S/A, you have to stop pedalling to shift, which is very annoying.

I bought the Downtube because I love the way it looks, and I love 16" wheeled bikes. I still like it, but I'm very disappointed with the quality. That's something you just cant get a feel for by looking at pictures on the internet. I realize that the Downtube was 1/2 the price of the Dahon, but I'd have gladly paid more for a better quality bike. I'm not trashing Downtube, but you get what you pay for.

So by all means, try to look at one in the flesh before buying. I remember the signature line from a fellow motorcycle rider on a BMW forum: "Buy the best, cry once." Sometimes buying the less expensive item can cost you a lot more in the long run, both in money and grief. "

In hindsight, I wish I had bought another Dahon, instead of the Downtube. I still love it's looks, but I'm sure by the time I'm finished upgrading all the crap components on it, I'll have spent considerably more than I would have on the Dahon. I keep wishing I'd bought a Dahon D3, ride it for the summer, then strip it down and upgrade the hub to an 8 speed, and upgrade all the components over the winter. Then I'd basically have another Curve SL, only in red (the fastest color!).

autoworker...didn't u started a thread of where to buy a mini dt when the model is discontinued? and didn't u have a mini dt already before buying this one? so u must have known about the gear shifting problem. and u still choose to buy it again...can any1 say buyer remorse?

What's funny is that when you Google "downtube mini" with the quotes, the first link you get is directly to the mini product order page on downtube.com.

Someone should order one, see what happens :-)

autoworker...didn't u started a thread of where to buy a mini dt when the model is discontinued? and didn't u have a mini dt already before buying this one? so u must have known about the gear shifting problem. and u still choose to buy it again...can any1 say buyer remorse?

Yes, I started a thread on where to buy a Downtube Mini after I discovered that it had been discontinued, but I did not already own one. If you go back and re-read my original post, you will see that I already owned a Dahon Curve SL, and was looking for another 16" wheel bike with an internally geared hub. So what is your point?

Even before that, I had posted asking about comparisons between the Downtube Mini and the Dahon Curve SL. Not one person said anything about any shifting problems with the Sturmey Archer hub, or that you have to stop pedalling when you shift. Had I known about these issues, I probably would not have purchased the Downtube.

What's funny is that when you Google "downtube mini" with the quotes, the first link you get is directly to the mini product order page on downtube.com.

Someone should order one, see what happens :-)

I tried that several weeks ago. The page accepted my order and even charged my VISA. Within 1/2 hour, I got an e-mail from Yan telling me that they were out of stock, and that my VISA would be credited. Because of the difference in exchange rates (I live in Canada) VISA applies for purchases and refunds in U.S. funds, that little experiment cost me $38.41, even thought both transactions were posted the same day. :notamused:

That's one thing about Canadian banks, they ALWAYS make money!

I'd call your credit ard company, something's not right there.

I agree, that's robbery.

I wonder whether this would be the same hub that's being talked about here (sounds like so):

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=348873

I wonder whether this would be the same hub that's being talked about here (sounds like so):

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=348873

Yes, it is. In fact there are a whole lot of threads on this hub, many of them in connection with Downtube bikes, and specifically Mini's. Several members of this forum have had problems with the hub, and have discussed them here. At least two members have overhauled the hub completely (jur) or partially (me). Given the amount that's been written about them, I don't see how anyone can be surprised to find the hub occasionally has problems. It's true, this hub occasionally has problems! That said, I remain convinced it's the best hub available for a bike with 16" wheels, and recommend it over all alternatives.

That said, I remain convinced it's the best hub available for a bike with 16" wheels, and recommend it over all alternatives.

Given its gearing -- direct drive being 1st gear -- I can see why.

Several members of this forum have had problems with the hub, and have discussed them here. At least two members have overhauled the hub completely (jur) or partially (me).

Thanks for the note. What do you think would be the lifespan of this hub? If a new bike is already having a hub problem, will (and for how long) the hub last after the 1-year warranty is over? How easy, or costly, would it be to get the hub fixed or replaced? And I agree with Autoworker about not being impressed that the customer should pay extra for labor to fix the defective hub even during the warranty period.

Thanks for the note. What do you think would be the lifespan of this hub? If a new bike is already having a hub problem, will (and for how long) the hub last after the 1-year warranty is over? How easy, or costly, would it be to get the hub fixed or replaced? And I agree with Autoworker about not being impressed that the customer should pay extra for labor to fix the defective hub even during the warranty period.

Sorry, I can only speculate. In my own case, my hub had lasted about two years, and about 5500 miles, and in the end was done in by a competent, experienced, and very professional bicycle mechanic (in other words: not me!) who made the unfortunate mistake of following Sturmey Archer's disassembly instructions.

In this discussion, we have to be wary of confusing current production with older production. If possible, try to figure out what you're talking about.

The current model, marked X-RF8w, is supposed to be considerably improved over the older one, marked XRF8. I don't know why the model names are so similar; the hubs are totally different. The have different gear ratios, look different, and as far as I can see, they have no interchangeable parts. I believe the current model has been in production since early 2008, and has been available for purchase for since early 2009. Forum member TCS was the first to get one, and he has had problems with his; I believe I was the second forum member to get one, and I have had no problems with mine (but there are only about 500 miles on it so far).

I don't know which hub you'll find on a 2009 Downtube. I would certainly prefer the new hub but one way or another I would not worry about it. Sunrace/Sturmey Archer seems committed to stand by these hubs, and if you end up with a defective one I believe they will give you a new one. In my case, since my hub was destroyed by a professional mechanic, Sturmey Archer provided him a new hub. I spent $120 on labor, which is a lot, but I'm not complaining. Please note: my hub was out of warranty, and it was not defective; it had a lot of miles on it, a lot of wear and tear, and needed maintenance.

One other observation: As I have said, I think the Sturmey Archer 8 speed hub, regardless whether the old XRF8 or the newer XRF8w, is the best hub available for a bike with 16" wheels. I am not sure it is so well suited to a bike with 20" wheels; that is, I'm sure it's fine, but with 20" wheels I believe the Shimano Nexus may be a viable option. Speculating, now: if it is really true that the Downtube Mini is discontinued, then Downtube will have no incentive to stick with the Sturmey Archer hub; in which case I wouldn't be surprised to see Shimano hubs on future bikes. But what do I know.

Just a quick update on my Downtube Mini.

I finally received my replacement hub on Monday, July 27. Fortunately, it is a new model with the "W" suffix. :) Unfortunately, Yan put a value of $200 US on the customs declaration, instead of stating that it was a no-charge-warranty-replacement, and therefore I had to pay $35 in Customs duties. :( I took it to my local bike shop to have them swap the hubs, and they quoted me a price of $30 plus tax.

The new hub is considerably larger than the old model, indicating a more robust interior construction. Fortunately, the diameter of the hub flange that the spokes go into was the same as the old one, so my LBS was able to use the original spokes.

I wrote Yan, asking him to reimburse me for the extra $65 in expenses, since this was a warranty repair, but he refused. :mad: Oh well......I guess $65 for a new model "W" hub isn't too bad.

Anyway, I picked up the completed wheel today and installed it back on the bike. It took a while to install, since I was starting from scratch, and had to install the new "W" model shifter and adjust the cable length, install the rear cog from my old hub......etc......etc.......

Took it out for a test ride, and the difference is amazing! The shifts are clean and precise, with none of the problems that plagued the original hub. I am very pleased with the results and I suppose it was worth all the hassle, and being without the bike for a month.

However, I don't think I would recommend a Downtube internal gear hub bike to anyone unless they could be absolutely sure they were getting the new model "W" hub.

Regards'
Dave

Thanks for the mini review. Do you prefer the new SA8 or the Nexus hub? Does it tick while driving or is as silent as the nexus hub? Please keep us updated on the reliability of this new hub.