Classic & Vintage - vintage masi help--please!!!

im going to look at a mid-late 70s masi tommorow. the owner says its all nuovo record-clip on rear brake cable guides(i think that means 70s) and is in great shape.
the problem i have is that he said it has absolutely no decals on it. how can i tell if its a gran crit. which is what i want-as opposed to a strada or corsa model-which is what i dont want? i own a lippy gran crit. so i can write down infor on that to take with me but is there anything on the bottom or anywhere else that will tell me the model? i wrote to hovey but just in case i dont hear from him by tommorow morning i thought id give you guys a shot. i have to drive to look at it and its cheap(300.00) but i would like to know the model if possible. thanks forever. joe

If it has clips and an "M" cutout BB, it's a GC. Take it to the bank. The "ones you don't want" have braze-on cable guides.

But we don't want to interpret this as "if it has cable guide braze-ons it is not a Gran Criterium."

But we don't want to interpret this as "if it has cable guide braze-ons it is not a Gran Criterium."

Nor did I imply that in my post.

If it has clips and an "M" cutout BB, it's a GC. Take it to the bank. The "ones you don't want" have braze-on cable guides.

Prestige and the Volumetrica both have M cut out bottom bracket shells.
The Volumetrica will have some form of rear brake cable housing control brazed on or in.

An unmarked bike just indicates repaint without a visual review. Repaints happen for many reasons, some benign, some not.

Study Bob Hovey's site, it will help quite a bit, but it is not finished.
A serial number or any and all bottom bracket stampings will assist in a broad way.
One thing I have to say is that let the frame tell you the date, don't take the owner's word, even if he or she bought it new, and it was in the mid 70's that is 35 years ago. Most just do not have that good a memory.

thanks again i will keep all that you say in mind when i look at this tommorow. i just got a reply from mr hovey and he said that corsa and strada models were made in middle eighties and have braze on cable guides. he also said the masi bits part of his webisite will help so.... i will print out what you guys have said and what infor i have from hovey and get some pics to post if and probably when i pick it up tomorrow cheers

Prestige and the Volumetrica both have M cut out bottom bracket shells.
The Volumetrica will have some form of rear brake cable housing control brazed on or in.


Sure, the "M" cutout wasn't limited to the GC. But the other possibilties would have braze-on TT cable guides. "M" cutout and clips instead of braze-on cable guides = GC.

well, i picked up the bike only 200.00 so i took the chance. good news-its all nuovo record-bad news it was redone by a rattle can paint job-no decals. bottom bracket has no m cut out or serial number or mc smc etc just four square cut outs. the guy i bought it from said when he got it it was really beat up paintwise and decal wise although he said it had a badge-not a decal on the head tube. but he swears the decals and head badge said masi

well, i picked up the bike only 200.00 so i took the chance. good news-its all nuovo record-bad news it was redone by a rattle can paint job-no decals. bottom bracket has no m cut out or serial number or mc smc etc just four square cut outs. the guy i bought it from said when he got it it was really beat up paintwise and decal wise although he said it had a badge-not a decal on the head tube. but he swears the decals and head badge said masi

It sounds like a 1960's Italian Masi (if it is a Masi).

We need to see pics, could be a real score Joe... I hope it is, I really do!!

vjp

You can see in this pic from Bob Hoveys site that the bikes in the background have "4 port", "6 port" and the "M" cut outs, does yours look like the 4 port one?

http://bhovey.com/Masi/MasiVisit/pages/31.htm

vjp

hay thanks alot vip. actually those four ports do look like the ones on the bottom of the bike i just got. keep my fingers crossed on this. as you know i got ripped off on a misrepresented cinelli a while ago so this would make up for it if it is a genuine masi. so i guess the lacking of a serial number is ok? i really have not had time yet to go over the bike in detail-i just got it this morning. i do notice that the campy hubs that the guy said were original dont have the black band around the middle or the world logo like my record hubs but they have the wing logo does this help date it? i will try to post some pics of bottom bracket and other parts asap thanks again-maybe this time i scored. oh , by the way. it also has a 3t stem that is engraved "record" it looks pretty old, but who knows

COOL, I have my fingers crossed!

Very early Masi Speciale frequently didn't have serial #'s OR a frame size stamp. Later ones had a frame size stamp generally. The head badges disappeared in 1968 according to Bob. Have you looked at your hubs closely are they 3 pieces (two spoke flanges pressed on to the center barrel) ? They could be early Gran Sport which would fit if the bike is older than you think.

vjp

Like this

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/1098581675608_hub_campy_front_GS.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bikeville.com/hubs.html&usg=__JJZlSpCaDCNJ-jjk1G0QU-ilby0=&h=617&w=857&sz=37&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=CseFWE6RxeUF6M:&tbnh=104&tbnw=145&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcampagnolo%2Bgran%2Bsport%2Bhubs%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

As I would one day like to add a GC to my stable, I'm following this thread with great interest. If this is indeed a 60s Masi, you just blew my 'bargain of a lifetime' out of the water ($175 for a 73 Super)!

I, too, hope you got a genuine Masi out of that deal. Please keep us posted!

COOL, I have my fingers crossed!

Very early Masi Speciale frequently didn't have serial #'s OR a frame size stamp. Later ones had a frame size stamp generally. The head badges disappeared in 1968 according to Bob. Have you looked at your hubs closely are they 3 pieces (two spoke flanges pressed on to the center barrel) ? They could be early Gran Sport which would fit if the bike is older than you think.

vjp

Yeah, Italian Masis didn't have serial numbers right through the 70's, AFAIK, unike their US counterparts. The headbadges persisted past '68 - maybe to 1970.
The BB shells on Specials were originally solid, I believe, giving way to a three-slot design sometime in the late 60's (maybe 1967). This was followed by a six-port design (seen on both late Specials and early GC's). The four-port bottom bracket apparently starts to show up in '71, at which point they are exclusively on GC's, and would definitely not have had headbadges. Having said that, there are apparently a number of different BB shell perforation configurations during this transition from the Special to the GC. The combination of the four-port bottom bracket and metal headbadge would seem to be something of a non sequitor (and not indicative of an early Special or Speciale Corsa, AFAIK.)
We will need pics, as usual. Do the lugs have cutouts?

the lugs seem ornate kind of like nervex. the hubs look likethe ones in the picture with the flying wings but are not two piece. i notice that the fork crown(which was sprayed with the rest of the bike with that damn rattle can) has four dot indentions on each part of the crown-if that makes any sence? im going to get pics by tonight-i hope

Early 60's Masi had Nervex sometimes....:thumb:

vjp

Early 60's Masi had Nervex sometimes....:thumb:

vjp

Yes, but not 4-port bottom bracket shells, AFAIK - so let's not cherry-pick details based on what we'd like the bike to be, especially in the absence of photos. The four-hole crown doesn't ring Masi bells, either (though they did use a crown in the 60's with a slot and a single hole in the side of each crown). Also, the hubs sound like low-flange Tipos more than anything else.
Let's please wait for the pics.

Yes, but not 4-port bottom bracket shells, AFAIK - so let's not cherry-pick details based on what we'd like the bike to be, especially in the absence of photos. The four-hole crown doesn't ring Masi bells, either (though they did use a crown in the 60's with a slot and a single hole in the side of each crown). Also, the hubs sound like low-flange Tipos more than anything else.
Let's please wait for the pics.

But, cherry picking is more fun than being sensible, and what if this is the actual missing Coppi/Bianchi/Masi/Grail ? And it only cost $200.....:innocent:

vjp

Didn't Joe's Cinelli post teach everybody not to specualte about rare early bikes until he posts the pics.

Joe, I hope it's a 60's Masi Special that you'll send to Baylis to be restored, but I remember how you got everybody worked up about "no name Campy parts" that turned out to be mundane 90's stuff once we saw the pics. So I will wait patiently until we can see what this frame looks like :)

ok here are the pics-i hope. i tried to take them of the main parts. i can get more if necessary. i hope that this isnt another "cinelli" but even so. 200.00 for nuovo record parts is fine with mehttp://photobucket.com/englert

Interesting. I'd like to see a good side shot of the seat-lug/seat-stay tops, and better shots of the head lugs as well as the rear drop-outs.

ok. if it looks promising ill be happy to do it. say, can you make the pics show here in the thread? i dont know how to do it. somebody did it for me the last time but i frogot who it was. thanks/

Interesting. I'd like to see a good side shot of the seat-lug/seat-stay tops, and better shots of the head lugs as well as the rear drop-outs.

Plus the fork and clear shots of the whole bike from the side, front and back please.

vjp

joe- to make pics work just host them somewhere (photobucket.com , flickr etc) then click the little picture image (yellow square w/ a mountain in it). put the address of the pic in there. viola

i did that but its only showing an x in a box see number 21 above it does have campy drop outs so i dont think its some cheap frame even though with that god awful rattle can paint job it looks like one. i can scrape off some of it with my finger nail and underneath it looks like the original color was orange

here you go... next time make sure you post the link to the actual picture, not just the album.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/010.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/011.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/003.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/002.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/001-1.jpg

i can't say anything as to the actual frame, besides that it looks promising, but at least all the campy bits are worth what you paid for it.

hay andy, thanks alot for the help. im learning-takes me a while though:)

Odd seatlug. One heck of a big slot.

-Kurt

It's not a Masi, IMO. Details don't pan out (never seen that upper headlug on a Masi), or the workmanship generally (no reinforcements on either the chainstay or seatstay bridges, etc.). Also, if it was a Masi from the era the frame appears to be from, it would have a sizing stamp on the BB shell with a city code.

well, i did it again. got my hopes up. oh well at least it only cost 200.00 this time and i did get some good campy stuff. does anyone know what frame it is? is it worth restoring or should i just strip it and throw it out? anyone out there need a nuovo record group cheap??

Joe, get some wheels on it or at least tires and ride it. Just don't look down, and you might be surprised at the ride. Not a Masi.

I have seen that Bottom Bracket port configuration before, just been a while. My guess is it may not have Italian threading.

Once concern is that the seat post appears painted a bit, like the spray can job was just masked off there, frozen seat post? It is a Superleggere though.

For the price is still appears a good deal.

Absolutely, positively NOT a Masi. Repechage is correct, just get on the bike and ride it. Don't get hung up on the brand and the economics. Learn to discern what makes a bike great.

your right. i shouldnt let it bother me. the seatpost is frozen by the way-howd you know that? i know this appears really snotty and you guys can call me that but... i refuse to be seen on a rattle can paint job bike no matter what parts it may have on it. now if it was a masi i would have sent it out and been restored. does anyone know what brand the frame is?

Too bad Joe:(

Please post pics of the whole bike and let us try and figure out what you have. It is odd for sure. The head lug looks like it has been worked by hand but the BB is crude and the lack of reinforcements is puzzling.

Please post pics.

vjp

your right. i shouldnt let it bother me. the seatpost is frozen by the way-howd you know that? i know this appears really snotty and you guys can call me that but... i refuse to be seen on a rattle can paint job bike no matter what parts it may have on it. now if it was a masi i would have sent it out and been restored. does anyone know what brand the frame is?

It works like this, the bike was repainted, the seatpost was masked off but the as the seat lug ears are far apart, paint shows between them... therefore, most probable that the seat post is stuck, at least beyond the ability or time involvement the painter wanted to invest. The headset and Bottom bracket don't show paint, so those were probably removed.

Read some Sherlok Holmes.

Unfortunately Wooljersey is down, or I would look to see if I could confirm my possible guesses as to make. As I said before, I think it does not have Italian threading. And while I could not tell from the image, the seat post is under 27.2 maybe.

From what I see its a rather nice frame. Nervex BB shell, Prugnaut lugs that have been reworked and cleaned up, window added to the lower head lug. No bridge reinforcements points to another European country on a frame with more than a pedestrian build.

thanks, your right it is a 27 seat post-french maybe? anyway ill put up some more pics so you can tell more about it. i dont think its worth a good paint job and decal set but ill wait and see what you gentleman have to say.
by the way thanks so much for the information on this bike. i really appreciate even though it wasnt what i was hoping for. joe

It's not Italian and it's painted ORANGE. Maybe it's a Dutch bike.

happy 4th everyone . i added some more pics to my thread of the rattle can paint non masi bike. i hope these will help id the bike. thanks againhttp://photobucket.com/englertps i deleted the old pics and added the new ones

happy 4th everyone . i added some more pics to my thread of the rattle can paint non masi bike. i hope these will help id the bike. thanks againhttp://photobucket.com/englertps i deleted the old pics and added the new ones

I like it. It's no masterwork but it does look like a well thought out early 70's frame. As suggested earlier I would build it up and ride it. If it's a good one, support a bike painter and do something cool with it. If it was a 54-55cm I would buy it from you, but it looks like a 56-58cm?

The 60's Italian "mystery frame" I just restored turned out to be one of the sweetest riding bikes I've ever owned. I've never ridden a 60's Masi but from what I've read of their ride I think my bike would pretty damn close. I do not need a builder's name on it becuase I know whoever it was did a good job. On the flipside I own a pretty famous marque top-end late 50's bike that I think is a complete dog to ride. So it ain't always in the name.

All but one of the new photos above are showing as "moved or deleted" from Photobucket.

Yeah no good pictures:(. Please fix that because no matter what bike you have pics are good.

I wish Joe lived near here. I've got a couple of rare bikes I'd like to unload:D

ha ha ofg. i dont know whats up with those pics. i put them on photo bucket. ill try againhttp://photobucket.com/englert now that should show all 5 new pics of the bike-i hope. thanks otis, maybe ill try it. dont want to spend 500.00 restoration on a 200.00 bike though

http://photobucket.com/englert 007.jpghttp://007.jpg why dont i see any pics? i cant get the hang of this damn thing. i click on the yellow icon, put the photobucket address and everything but the pic doesnt show

happy 4th everyone . i added some more pics to my thread of the rattle can paint non masi bike. i hope these will help id the bike. thanks againhttp://photobucket.com/englertps i deleted the old pics and added the new ones

eghad here:

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/007.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/013.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/006.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/jenglert/012.jpg

I'll take that off your hands for $200, no problem. And I definately agree with everyone else: so what if it's no Masi? It's something pretty dang good - there was time put into that frame. Maybe it doesn't posess every hallmark of a top frame (lack of reinforcements), but the rest of the work looks sound. Add to that all the NR gear that came with it? A steal, no doubt.

I'm like you in that I'd like to know what it was, sure. But don't think for a second you got screwed 'cause it's not a Masi. No way. This was a great buy.

BTW, first clue it couldn't be a 60s Masi: recessed brake mountings. Doh!

Seriously, you want to sell, you let me know. If I can't find out who made it, I'll make something up. I would be riding it anyway!

hay thanks for the help with the pics and, by the way, a friend of mine thinks it might be french because the seat post is a 27-little smaller than an italian. should i buy some cheap masi decals and put them on? just kidding. i still wonder what repecage thinks it might be. i dont have a clue. i used some gas on it to get rid of some of the rattle can paint just to see if it had a part of a decal but no luck. ps what is with those four small indentations on the fork crown? is that some sort of way to fasten it on the fork?

I don't think 27.0 is an indication of a French bike, at least not by itself. Tony Oliver, the Welsh custom builder wrote that many of his bikes using Reynolds seat tubes take that diameter. In your case, it's not even clear (due to the stuckness) that 27.0 is even the correct size.

The BB threading, if you can read it off the Campy cups, would be an important piece of the puzzle. This is like intelligence analysis as done by spymasters - assemble all the available information and attempt to draw teh best possible conclusion. So far, too many puzzle pieces are missing. For you to measure the geometry, at least ST c-c, TT, chainstay, and wheelbase, would help. If you can get head tube and seat tube angles, that also would be great. Look inside the BB. Are the DT, ST, and chainstays pinned? Are they mitered well? These are all hints. If they aren't mitered well, this could just be somebody's "training frame."

I don't spend much of my own time on bikes I don't like, so I try to get a ridable build as soon as I have time. If I like it, I think about what if anything I want to do for refinement. Get it ridable and see if you like it. Carefully try to get that seat pin out. If the seat lug is expanded or distorted, you might just have a gruppo there. You need a Campy seat post binder bolt, it looks like.

It's clearly not a bad build. It seems it might not be a great build, at least if the lack of reinforcements at the chainstay and seatstay bridges is significant. I'm not sure that it is too important.