Cyclocross - Lightest frame with rack mounts?

I'm looking to replace the Gunnar Crosshairs frame that was part of my short-lived commuter bike (due to no fault of my own and all the blame laying squarely on a mom in a hurry). Being the closet-weight weenie that I am, I was a little disappointed with the final weight of my Crosshairs commuter which came in at a little under 28 lbs. including rack, fenders, lights, and pump. The only really lightweight parts I used were the Ritchey WCS seatpost, stem, and handlebar and an XTR rear derailler. This time around though I'm going to focus a lot more on keeping the weight down and less on my budget.

Ideally, I'd knock about 5 lbs. off my original build. I already have wheels spec'd that will remove ~1 lb. I'm going to save another ~0.8 lbs. using a lighter rack. More weight saved on the tires and crankset will maybe net me another pound if I'm lucky (haven't decided on anything there). My main concern at the moment is the frame though. According to Gunnar, the Crosshairs weighs 4.1 lbs. in a size 56 (I rode a size 52). Is there anything out there that would work as a commuter that's closer to 3 lbs.?

I'm trying to stick in the cross/touring category because I want to continue using a disc front brake and there are no lightweight road/sport road forks with disc brake mounts (that I know about). The Winwood Dualist fork that I used before seems to be the lightest option out there for a disc brake on a 700c wheeled bike. If there was a shorter axle-to-crown height fork that had disc brake mounts, could fit 28mm tires plus fenders, and weighed less than 600 grams I'd be all over it and it would really open up my choices for frames. Failing that, my original question stands so what do you suggest?

[Note 1: This has already been posted in the mechanics forum where I received some good input but I'm looking for more.]

[Note 2: Spare me the lectures about how weight shouldn't be a concern on a commuting bike. I didn't post this in the commuter forum for a reason :D]

Specialized Tricross pro frameset is very light. I didn't weigh mine before I built it up but I built it with full ultegra, non-carbon drop bars, heavy shimano M324 pedals, Veulta Xrp wheels (I don't recommend these) with kenda kwick tires. The bike still came in less than 21 # and has mounts for a rear rack. Paid $929 for the frame.

you know you can put a rack on any bike using p-clamps, right? You don't need rack mounts specifically...
http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bags_and_racks?a=1&page=all#product=20-016
http://www.rivbike.com/images/products/full/0000/2898/20-016a.jpg

Specialized Tricross pro frameset is very light. I didn't weigh mine before I built it up but I built it with full ultegra, non-carbon drop bars, heavy shimano M324 pedals, Veulta Xrp wheels (I don't recommend these) with kenda kwick tires. The bike still came in less than 21 # and has mounts for a rear rack. Paid $929 for the frame.

I hadn't even considered any of the major manufacturers as I just assumed they wouldn't offer frames. Seems that Specialized has upped the price (now $1100) but that does include a seatpost and fork. If anyone knows the actual frame weight (preferably for a size 54), I'd really appreciate the info.


you know you can put a rack on any bike using p-clamps, right? You don't need rack mounts specifically...

This is true but I was trying to stay away from that compromise both for strength and aesthetic reasons. My desire for true rack mounts really seems to only limit me from selecting the truly high end cross frames which are outside of my budget anyway.

whether or not it is a good question, this is probably the answer excluding custom frames
http://pedalforce.com/online/index.php?cPath=102175

[QUOTE=joejack951;9223144]I hadn't even considered any of the major manufacturers as I just assumed they wouldn't offer frames. Seems that Specialized has upped the price (now $1100) but that does include a seatpost and fork. If anyone knows the actual frame weight (preferably for a size 54), I'd really appreciate the info.


The $1100 price is retail. You can get better internet prices or ask your dealer for a "no work" price, meaning he sells you the frame in the box with no labor and if you need help you pay for it. That is what I did which is why I paid only $929. BTW, mine is a 2009 and I bought it one month ago. I really wish I would have weighed it before I built it up.

You can buy a Specialized Tricross Comp fully assembled with Ultegra rear derailleur, 105 on the front and shifters for only about $1600. Also a trek portland at the same price has fenders already and disc brakes but lower end shifters and derailleurs and comes in at about 21lbs.

whether or not it is a good question, this is probably the answer excluding custom frames
http://pedalforce.com/online/index.php?cPath=102175

That frame certainly has the potential to be the one. Thanks!

The $1100 price is retail. You can get better internet prices or ask your dealer for a "no work" price, meaning he sells you the frame in the box with no labor and if you need help you pay for it. That is what I did which is why I paid only $929. BTW, mine is a 2009 and I bought it one month ago. I really wish I would have weighed it before I built it up.

You can buy a Specialized Tricross Comp fully assembled with Ultegra rear derailleur, 105 on the front and shifters for only about $1600. Also a trek portland at the same price has fenders already and disc brakes but lower end shifters and derailleurs and comes in at about 21lbs.

I'll inquire with the local dealer and see what they can offer me. Looks like it's going to be tough to beat the Pedal Force though.

I already have most of the components needed for the build and I plan on building my own wheels so purchasing a complete bike has little incentive for me. The Trek Portland's cheesy half fenders don't belong on a bike of mine either :p

umm, unless I missed it, I didn't see rack mounts on the pedal force...

looks like a rack mount to me

I was going to ask if there were braze-ons somewhere on those seat stays but unless I change my mind on my rack choice, I won't need them. The Old Man Mountain rack I have will mount at the drop outs and the cantilever bosses.

I guess I am a little confused. If you don't need rack mounts, what were you asking for?

Anyway, my opinion is go with a good known company, be it specialized, surly, salsa etc. I have never heard of this Pedal Force or their customer service so be careful and ask around first. Many cheaper carbon fiber frames weigh as much or more than good aluminum frames with carbon seat stays and forks. You may find that this pedal force makes good, cheap and light frames and have excellent customer service but I have never found that combination. Usually you give up "quality" or "light" and almost always "cheap" comes with bad customer service (ie Bikes Direct).

P.S. I know the BD comment will bring a s**t storm but I have purchased from them and am speaking from my own experience.

Good Luck, DB

I just googled "pedal force" and found a review of one of their bikes.

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/blog/pedal-force-rs2-road-bike-pro-review/

It sounds to me like these frames are made in the same factory many other bikes from Taiwan are made in. They mention a few blemishes in the article but it sounds like they were satisfied with their bike. The question is are these seconds? Meaning are these the frames that didn't make the cut for the OEM. The RS2 that they show looks a lot like a specialized tarmac with the sloping top tube.

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=39248&eid=115

So if this is a second, are you willing to take the chance that there are a few blemishes? My answer would depend on what other people say about their customer service. I buy cigar "seconds" all the time, but out of a bundle of 25 cigars, 5 of them are usually unsmokable due to too tight a draw etc. This is a bike frame and you are only getting one. Make sure you can return it if it is unable to be turned into a bike shaped object. You never know, you may get a hell of a bike for little money.
DB

whether or not it is a good question, this is probably the answer excluding custom frames
http://pedalforce.com/online/index.php?cPath=102175

Watched the video. All mud, blood and glory. Wow. Made me want to go rip out a hot 20 on my ss, but it's bedtime, mytime, so it'll have to wait...but what an inspiring vid. Thanks for sharing it.

Oops, thought I was on the 'commuting' sub...no wonder the vid was all about cyclo-cross...my bad. :p

looks like a rack mount to me

I didn't see any at the dropouts....

there's a hole at the dropouts, according to the description and visible in the pictures. if you're referring to the fact that there's only one hole instead of two (for both fenders and a rack), i've heard that you can usually attach both to a single mount point at the dropout so long as your bolt is long enough. never tried it though.

the pedal force frames aren't seconds, they're just a budget reseller that outsources production to asia. if i remember right the cx1 was designed with input from people on these forums. i've never owned one but a lot of people in the road forum have, so you could read some of those threads. generally seem positive. regardless, if i were dropping nearly $1000 on a cross/commuter frame i'd probably buy a habanero ti despite the small <1 pound weight penalty. incidentally, habanero is also a budget reseller that outsources production to asia.

I guess I am a little confused. If you don't need rack mounts, what were you asking for?

I could have been more specific and asked for "rack mounts at the dropouts" as that is all I need for one of my rack options. Ideally, the frame would have seat stay mounts but as long as I stick with the OMM rack, I don't need them. Usually frames have both though so I guess that influenced my wording.

the pedal force frames aren't seconds, they're just a budget reseller that outsources production to asia. if i remember right the cx1 was designed with input from people on these forums. i've never owned one but a lot of people in the road forum have, so you could read some of those threads. generally seem positive. regardless, if i were dropping nearly $1000 on a cross/commuter frame i'd probably buy a habanero ti despite the small <1 pound weight penalty. incidentally, habanero is also a budget reseller that outsources production to asia.

The Habanero frame was at the top of my list until I came across the PF CX1. PF is made in Taiwan, Habanero is made in China. The Habanero costs $100 more, might be a more robust frame but it's also a pound heavier. I figure I'll take my chances with the PF and see how it goes. Plenty of guys in the road forums have been extremely happy with their road frames so I don't think I'm taking a huge chance with the cross version.

As for blemishes, my Gunnar had a flawless paint job until one day I was putting away from floor pump and accidentally dropped it on my top tube. Nice big scratch. *Luckily* (note the sarcasm) I only had to look at it for a few months. It's a lot more scratched up (and twisted) now. If the PF frame shows up with some clear coat issues, I doubt I'll care about them much after my first really rainy ride that covers the bike in road grit and bug parts.

there's a hole at the dropouts, according to the description and visible in the pictures. if you're referring to the fact that there's only one hole instead of two (for both fenders and a rack), i've heard that you can usually attach both to a single mount point at the dropout so long as your bolt is long enough. never tried it though.

On the bikes that I've had both a rack and fenders, I've always just used a longer bolt and mounted the fender stays inside on the rack legs. Some racks (Tubus comes to mind) have a fender stay mount built-in so that you don't have to use an extended bolt at the drop out.

Update: I ordered the Pedal Force frame last week on Monday. I would have had it Saturday but I was out of town so I picked it up at the post office today. It was shipped direct from Taiwain and packaged reasonably well (bubble wrapped in a good box but without any reinforcement inside of the box). Can't complain about the 5 day delivery though. Shipping was $25.

Comments:

The frame DOES have rack mounts on the wishbone seat stay. Nice touch in case I go for a different rack some day.

I looked over the frame pretty closely and only found one clearcoat blemish on the edge of the headtube. Otherwise, I'm impressed with the finish quality. The carbon weave is showing in the middle 2/3's of all the tubes and all the junctions are painted black. The only logo is on the headtube though it's disappointingly under the clearcoat so it has to stay.

The frame came with a roller for using a bottom pull derailler with a top tube routed cable and a riveted-on stop for the rear brakes. Oddly, there's no adjuster screwed into the stop (it won't work without one either). Hopefully I can use one off an old derailler or something.

The seattube does not have any metal insert for clamping on the seat post. I was a bit surprised by this but then again I'm only really familiar with one other carbon frame (LOOK). It did come with a nice clamp for the seatpost though. I'm using an aluminum post so hopefully I won't have any issues with it slipping.

The holes for mounting a rack/fenders at the dropouts look like an afterthought. They are quite close to the edge and the non-drive side hole is partially missing due to breaking into a cored out area in the dropout. They'll probably work just fine but it would have been nice if this area was better thought out. All the other holes for mounting are nicely integrated.

That's it for now. I'll be sure to post pictures when I'm done building.

Darn, saw this thread a little too late.

You will definitely enjoy the PF CX1 frame. I love mine. I also mounted some fenders and a rack on mine for some short touring and it's a comfortable and relaxing ride.
With Open Pro's, but no fenders and rack my bike came out to ~18lbs.
Here is a pic of it how it looks like before fenders and rack mount:

http://gallery.geekazoids.net/index.php/bikes/cx1-15

Darn, saw this thread a little too late.

You will definitely enjoy the PF CX1 frame. I love mine. I also mounted some fenders and a rack on mine for some short touring and it's a comfortable and relaxing ride.
With Open Pro's, but no fenders and rack my bike came out to ~18lbs.
Here is a pic of it how it looks like before fenders and rack mount:

http://gallery.geekazoids.net/v/bikes/cx1-15.jpg.html

Nice! Light and comfortable are big on my list of wants for this bike. I know it'll be light based on the weight of the frame :) I can't wait to start building mine up. I have a few more parts coming in next week before I'm ready though. Just finished lacing my wheels tonight. I'll be tensioning/truing over the weekend. Here are some pics I took of the frame prior to anything being added:

http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02178.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02179.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02180.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02181.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02182.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02183.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02184.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02185.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02186.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02187.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02188.JPG

The bike has been built for a little while now though I just finally had time to finish tweaking everything today. It's all geared up for it's first commute tomorrow. Here's a pic (~23.7 lbs. on my bathroom scale as shown):

http://home.comcast.net/~joejackson951/bike/PF/DSC02690.JPG

Some details:

Shifters, cassette, rear derailler - Ultegra 6500
Handlebars, stem, seatpost, headset - Ritchey WCS
Fork: Winwood Dualist
Saddle: Fizik Pave CX
Front brakes: Avid BB7 Road
Rear brakes: Avid Shorty 6
Front derailler: Shimano 105
Crankset: Truvativ Elita Triple 52/42/28 (Salsa ring replaced original 30T)
Chain: KMC X9
Wheels: American Classic Disc 130 and 205S hubs laced to IRD Cadence VSR rims. DT Alloy nipples. Front is all DT Revolution spokes. Rear is DT Competition DS, Revolution NDS. 32/3 cross front and rear.
Tires: Continental GP 4 Season 28mm
Rack: Old Man Mountain White Rock
Headlight: Light & Motion Arc Lithium Ion Ultra
Taillights: PB Superflash and Cateye TL-LD1000
Fenders: SKS P35

If you look really closely you'll see that I used p-clamps to attach the fender stays to the rack struts rather than sandwiching them up against the drop outs. I found aluminum p-clamps at McMaster Carr with a 9.5mm ID which worked perfectly for this.

The only planned changes are to the crankset which will be switched to a Stronglight Pulsion Triple if and when my Stronglight Fission ever shows up to go on my road bike. That will drop close to half a pound off the bike.

Thanks for all the responses to my original question.

Looks great. I'll bet you will have a lot of fun with it.

Resurrecting and oldish thread here:

joejack, thanks for posting details and the picture of your build. What is your impression of the bike for its intended purpose, nearly 4 months in? I'm strongly considering a similar build.

Thanks in advance,

Andy in Seattle

Andy, I have 2000 miles on the bike so far. My only complaint is a minor headset issue that I'm attempting to sort out. I think it's a headset issue at least. There's an outlying chance that it's a problem with the disc brake but I think I've ruled that out. I'll know for sure in about a week. I'm getting some vibration during low speed braking that seems to go away if I readjust the headset. But it keeps reoccuring. See my thread in the mechanics forum if you're interested. Oh, and the bargain Truvativ ISIS bottom bracket isn't nearly as smooth as the FSA BB on my road bike. I can feel some roughness when I get out of the saddle and mash a big gear. I'll eventually get around to swapping cranks like I originally intended and switch BB's at the same time. I did finally install the new crank on my road bike just tonight oddly enough.

Otherwise, I really enjoy riding this bike almost daily. The lightweight and road-worthy build makes my 31 mile round trip commute a lot more fun. 4 lbs. makes a big difference up some of the steep hills in the area. The frame is far stiffer than the Gunnar but doesn't feel uncomfortable. It's tough to make a good comparison though as I'm using quite different tires (GP 4 Seasons vs. Specialized Armadillos). As for the tires, I expect them to last at least until 5000 miles if not more based on their wear so far. Zero flats during that mileage too.

The wheels have stayed as true as the day I took them off the truing stand. The front did require a few tweaking sessions as the DT Revolution spokes like to wind up as you creep towards higher tension. I should have used more grease on the nipples in hindsight. I don't notice any abnormal flexing from the rear even with it's (relatively) minimal build. I expected some and have been pleasantly surprised so far. I'm not a clyde but not a super-lightweight at 160 lbs.

The Pave CP saddle has proven to be quite comfortable. I like it more than my previously purchased Pave's and definitely more than my Arione. If it was only cheaper, I'd buy a few more. I used Finish Line Fiber Grip on the seatpost and it hasn't budged. I was a little nervous about having slippage issues based on how the frame was constructed but either the paste is doing it's job and/or I was over-reacting. I've read of issues with the WCS seatposts slipping but I have not had any issues (I go over railroad tracks 4 times per commute too).

I've been cleaning and relubing the chain every 400-500 miles. Not a hint of wear. I'll likely use another KMC chain when the time comes to replace it.

Anything else you'd like any feedback on specifically?

Thanks for the detailed feedback! I do have a few specific questions:

1. why did you choose the OMM rack over, say, a Tubus cargo?

2. why was the disc front brake important to you?

3. any creaks or noises from the frame (aside from the headset issue)?

4. have you tested the handling with a heavy rear load?

I'm intending to replace a 2006 specialized tarmac pro that I'm using with an OMM Sherpa rear rack (doesn't need mounts), SKS P35 fenders (attached with clamps and zip ties), Ultremo DD 700x23c tires and full dura ace.

I have a few complaints about the tarmac setup:

1. the fork is really borderline on clearance with the full fender so it often makes noise

2. I can't run bigger than 23c tires (28 would be nice)

3. When I go grocery shopping and put 50 pounds or so on the rack, the bike handles super squirrely! Yes, I know it wasn't made for this. I believe it's actually the frame flexing, not the rack. I tried the same grocery load on my old gunnar street dog canti-mount (like a fixed gear cross hairs) with a tubus fly rack and you could barely feel any flex at all, the bike was much more stable.

I really love the comfortable but responsive ride of the Tarmac and I think part of that is the carbon construction. But I'm wondering whether this frame is likely to handle a heavy rear load more elegantly.

Thanks for the detailed feedback! I do have a few specific questions:

1. why did you choose the OMM rack over, say, a Tubus cargo?

For starters, I already had an OMM White Rock. It's also a tiny bit lighter than the Tubus rack and costs considerably less (factors that I would have considered more had I been looking for a new rack for this bike. Carrying capacity is not a big concern of mine but if it were, I likely would have gone with the Tubus though I don't think I would have used the same frame.



2. why was the disc front brake important to you?

My commute involves a lot of rolling hills and frequently those hills have me stopping or slowly significantly at the bottom (sucks but that's the way the roads are). On a previous non-disc-braked commuter, the rims were basically shot after 15,000 miles (slightly different route but same type of terrain). Those were much heavier MTB rims than the IRD Cadence rims I'm using now too. With the disc brake up front, rim wear is not an issue. I do almost all of my braking with the front brake only so the rear should last a very long time too. I'll probably be rebuilding those wheels due to failure of the aluminum nipples long before I have to replace the rims.



3. any creaks or noises from the frame (aside from the headset issue)?

None. The frame feels very solid. I don't get any rubbing when standing and cranking using a combination that puts the chain close to the derailler.



4. have you tested the handling with a heavy rear load?

Not really. The most weight I've had on the back was a laptop and charger, my headlight charger, plus my clothes for the day. That was ~20 lbs. I'd guess including the pannier. I barely noticed that weight.


I'm intending to replace a 2006 specialized tarmac pro that I'm using with an OMM Sherpa rear rack (doesn't need mounts), SKS P35 fenders (attached with clamps and zip ties), Ultremo DD 700x23c tires and full dura ace.

I have a few complaints about the tarmac setup:

1. the fork is really borderline on clearance with the full fender so it often makes noise

2. I can't run bigger than 23c tires (28 would be nice)

3. When I go grocery shopping and put 50 pounds or so on the rack, the bike handles super squirrely! Yes, I know it wasn't made for this. I believe it's actually the frame flexing, not the rack. I tried the same grocery load on my old gunnar street dog canti-mount (like a fixed gear cross hairs) with a tubus fly rack and you could barely feel any flex at all, the bike was much more stable.

I really love the comfortable but responsive ride of the Tarmac and I think part of that is the carbon construction. But I'm wondering whether this frame is likely to handle a heavy rear load more elegantly.

The Winwood fork and PF frame would solve the first two issues without doubt. I believe the short wheel base of your Tarmac likely contributed to #3. The PF frame is considerably longer than my LOOK road frame and definitely feels more stable even with the lightly weighted front end (relative to the rear) and higher position. I'm not so sure about a 50 lb. load but over a short distance I guess you'd be OK. If you didn't break the Tarmc frame with that load, the PF should handle it even better.

This must be my longest delay in responding to a thread ever. Ah well, it's still relevant as I haven't replaced my sub-optimal commuter, and this is a good thread so I don't mind resurrecting it.

Thanks for the detailed feedback again joejack. Your comments help me understand some of the choices you have made. My city has lots of braking at the bottom of a hill too, and I've solved the problem you had by using ceramic open pros. I replace front brake pads a few times a year and rears once or so but the braking surfaces on the rim are basically good as new after tons of miles. I used Dura Ace 7800 hubs, Sapim Laser spokes (like revolutions) and alloy nips except the drive side, which is 14/15 spokes and brass nips - this is a great wheelset, though I may just stop using alloy nipples because they don't seem to last as long as everything else in other long-term builds I've done.

How has the bike been over the past 6 months? Have you tried carrying any more than 20 lb and if so, did you have any issues? Did you figure out the headset issue? Also, was the 23.6 lb weight including lights? I imagine so since you said 'as pictured' - that's impressive!

Regarding my issue with a heavier load, I do really believe that the issue was due to frame flex rather than geometry or rack flex. The frame flex feels really odd, if you stand up and pedal up a hill with a heavy rear load, it feels like the load is swaying back and forth behind you on a thick rubber post or something. And yes, using a <3lb carbon frame to carry a 50 lb rear load is probably not the wisest choice. But I find it interesting from an engineering perspective, particularly because, compared to my steel gunnar, my tarmac feels stiffer in the bottom bracket when hammering, but way flexier with the rear load. I'm guessing that this is because specialized has engineered the layup to be stiff in reacting to pedaling forces, and light otherwise - so the support for unintended uses isn't really there. In contrast the 853 gunnar is pretty standard all the way around so it probably handles these differing loads in about the same way. That's my bench-racing engineering analysis anyway :)

Thanks for the detailed feedback again joejack. Your comments help me understand some of the choices you have made. My city has lots of braking at the bottom of a hill too, and I've solved the problem you had by using ceramic open pros. I replace front brake pads a few times a year and rears once or so but the braking surfaces on the rim are basically good as new after tons of miles. I used Dura Ace 7800 hubs, Sapim Laser spokes (like revolutions) and alloy nips except the drive side, which is 14/15 spokes and brass nips - this is a great wheelset, though I may just stop using alloy nipples because they don't seem to last as long as everything else in other long-term builds I've done.

For reference, I wore out my first set of BB7 pads in ~5000 miles. That's a lot better than I was getting with Kool Stop rim brake pads (~3000 miles). And zero rim wear :)


How has the bike been over the past 6 months? Have you tried carrying any more than 20 lb and if so, did you have any issues? Did you figure out the headset issue? Also, was the 23.6 lb weight including lights? I imagine so since you said 'as pictured' - that's impressive!

Total mileage on the bike is now 5400 miles. Still running on the original tires (one puncture flat so far). I did figure out the headset issue which simply came down to not using enough preload. You really need to crank down on the preload otherwise the headset seems to just loosen up over time. Once I finally tightened the top cap enough, the problem went away. I still haven't carried any heavy loads though. I'm planning a 4 day credit card tour with my dad in October and plan to carry all of our gear. That'll be closer to 30 lbs. in two panniers. I'll give that a try sometime before then to see how the bike responds. I can update this thread when that happens. And yes, that 23.7 lb. weight includes the lights (with batteries).


Regarding my issue with a heavier load, I do really believe that the issue was due to frame flex rather than geometry or rack flex. The frame flex feels really odd, if you stand up and pedal up a hill with a heavy rear load, it feels like the load is swaying back and forth behind you on a thick rubber post or something. And yes, using a <3lb carbon frame to carry a 50 lb rear load is probably not the wisest choice. But I find it interesting from an engineering perspective, particularly because, compared to my steel gunnar, my tarmac feels stiffer in the bottom bracket when hammering, but way flexier with the rear load. I'm guessing that this is because specialized has engineered the layup to be stiff in reacting to pedaling forces, and light otherwise - so the support for unintended uses isn't really there. In contrast the 853 gunnar is pretty standard all the way around so it probably handles these differing loads in about the same way. That's my bench-racing engineering analysis anyway :)

Interesting point comparing the two frames. Carbon frame's seat stays seem to in general be quite spindly and flexible compared to steel frames. But a rear rack load is carried mostly by the dropouts. FWIW, the seat stays on the PF CX1 are anything but spindly.

Hi Joejack, very close to pulling the trigger on one of these. What would you estimate is the largest tire you could run with fenders?

Hi Joejack, very close to pulling the trigger on one of these. What would you estimate is the largest tire you could run with fenders?

Amazing timing. I had planned on updating this thread today as I just got back from the credit card tour mentioned above which, while not going quite as smoothly as planned, did prove that the CX1 is capable of handling a 30 lb. rear rack load without issue. This is with a 160 lb. rider climbing the very best of eastern PA's steep climbs. I did not get any hint of extra frame flex. I was impressed.

I just took a quick, and probably not-so-accurate, measurement from my rear rim to the bottom bracket cluster (the tightest point on the frame) and measured about 1.75" (45mm). So, I think that 38mm tires could likely fit with fenders. I'm running 28mm tires and had to space my rear fender away from the frame to keep it tight to the tire.

Thanks for the update joejack. Your complete weight is very impressive, nice job on this build! Your feedback on the 30lb rear load is very helpful also - I assume you had it in two rear panniers.

As an aside, I don't doubt that the disc brake is a great choice for you, but for the benefit of future searchers moving to ceramic rims has been a really great experience for me - I always kind of wrote them off before but since I've had them there is no rim wear over thousands of miles (I don't run a computer). You do replace pad inserts more often than disc brakes, but I find that pretty quick and it doesn't require brake re-adjustment since it's just the inserts. A side benefit is they really don't get you dirty, even your hands when doing a tire change, because most of the dark grey stuff that normally gets you is oxidized aluminum that the pads have rubbed off, and the ceramic surface just doesn't seem to wear off at all.

I'm getting close to building a bike to serve a similar purpose but will be a very different take, it will take me some time to put together but when done I'll post a link to it here. Your posting has been a great, thought-provoking part of my process. Thanks!

Thanks for the update joejack. Your complete weight is very impressive, nice job on this build! Your feedback on the 30lb rear load is very helpful also - I assume you had it in two rear panniers.

Yes, two rear panniers, relatively equally divided. The bike sure lost it's peppy feel with all that extra weight but handling wasn't affected as much as I expected, certainly another testament to the stiffness of the frame.


As an aside, I don't doubt that the disc brake is a great choice for you, but for the benefit of future searchers moving to ceramic rims has been a really great experience for me - I always kind of wrote them off before but since I've had them there is no rim wear over thousands of miles (I don't run a computer). You do replace pad inserts more often than disc brakes, but I find that pretty quick and it doesn't require brake re-adjustment since it's just the inserts. A side benefit is they really don't get you dirty, even your hands when doing a tire change, because most of the dark grey stuff that normally gets you is oxidized aluminum that the pads have rubbed off, and the ceramic surface just doesn't seem to wear off at all.

The front disc brake keeps things pretty clean but it really does limit your fork and wheelset choices. Then again, there are not many ceramic rim options either. I'm glad to hear that the ceramic rims work so well though. I'll certainly keep them in mind for the next bike build. My current build could probably be lighter with a lightweight front canti in place of the disc brake even with the 70 gram addition of the Mavic rims.


I'm getting close to building a bike to serve a similar purpose but will be a very different take, it will take me some time to put together but when done I'll post a link to it here. Your posting has been a great, thought-provoking part of my process. Thanks!

Happy to help. Looking forward to seeing the new bike.

Oh, in case anyone has been following and wondering about the treadlife on those Conti GP 4 Seasons, I replaced them just before this trip with just over 6000 miles on them. The rear was worn through to the casing in spots but only had that one puncture flat during it's life on the bike. The front is still usable but got replaced anyway at the same time.

I am actually considering one of these frames aswell. My two questions are

1) Can you give any idea to damage resistance? Have you ever done anything that might give an idea of how well it holds up to the scrapes and bumps I assume most commuter bikes experience?

2) How is it's handling when it is not loaded down? Can you give any comparisons between it and a road bike?

I am actually considering one of these frames aswell. My two questions are

1) Can you give any idea to damage resistance? Have you ever done anything that might give an idea of how well it holds up to the scrapes and bumps I assume most commuter bikes experience?

My commuter bike lives a pretty easy life while not out on the road. It gets stored in a garage at home and in the stairwell at work. I've never dropped it and banged it into anything. It's not that I'm overly careful with it but I do make it a point to not be careless with it, as I am with any of my bikes. I do bunny hop railroad tracks at 30+ mph with a 10+ lb. rear rack load on a daily basis though. I don't always clear them cleanly either.

Oh, and I never did get around to adding a chainstay protector yet the clearcoat has yet to sustain any damage from the daily chainslap it endures (those damn railroad tracks again).


2) How is it's handling when it is not loaded down? Can you give any comparisons between it and a road bike?

My real road bike is a LOOK KG386i built up with similar wheels (American Classic Sprint 350) but a good 7 lbs. lighter thanks to slightly better components and no commuting gear. The first time I rode the CX1 I felt like I was sitting very high up off the road. I don't know the exact difference in height between the two bottom brackets but it's a noticeable difference for me. I felt slightly less stable at first (just heading down the road) because of that sensation but got over it quickly. In turns and on fast downhills, the CX1 feels more stable to me than the LOOK likely due to the longer wheelbase of the CX1. The LOOK is simply twitchy and reacts quickly to whatever input you give it. The CX1 less so.

The LOOK has always seemed to have a slight edge in stiffness (based on out of the saddle climbing) but it's far from a perfect comparison that I'm making. The LOOK has a far stiffer, carbon crankset than the Truvativ Elita on the CX1 (one of these days I'm upgrading the crank on the CX1 though), 31.8mm handlebars versus the 26mm bars on the CX1 (chosen solely for easier mounting of lights), taller cross section rims, and 23mm tires versus the 28mm rubber on the CX1. With the same component spec, I would not be surprised if the CX1 was stiffer. The tubes on this frame are just massive (if aero is your goal, this is not your frame).

Another happy CX-1 rider here. Mine arrived in June and I have about 2k miles or so on it. It has almost completely replaced my road bikes for daily rides. Have done a couple metrics on it in comfort ... as yet no fenders or racks are mounted on the frame but I have used a post mounted Caradice bag with no issues at all. I have run 32 Marathon Supremes but the bike feels faster and more responsive on 28 Conty 4 Seasons mounted on Ultegra/OP wheels, which I am currently using.

I weigh over 200 and I'm using a Deore XT RD and 11-32 SRAM cassette.

:thumb:

FWIW: These brakes have made a big difference on my CX-1.

FWIW: These brakes have made a big difference on my CX-1.

Interesting - please elaborate, billy! Are you running them wide or narrow in the front?

Interesting - please elaborate, billy! Are you running them wide or narrow in the front?

Well, the Avid Shorty's I was running were just terrible: very poor stopping power and downright scary on steep downhills. Despite lots of tweaking, ever could quite get the spring tension equal on both sides, etc. So I had had an eye out for replacements. Paul's seemed like where I would end up. But I saw these featured in Bicycling and liked their looks. Then I stumbled on a good deal on eBay on them, so I took a chance. It would be hard for them to be worse than the others anyway.

Now I am not experienced with cantilever brakes, so I have to read instructions. These instructions were pretty good. The installation went smoothly and quickly with one exception. You must be sure the brake mounting posts are snug in their threads in the frame/fork. Drive side front and non-drive rear are critical because the counterclockwise spring tension will unscrew these posts. This is because the tensioning springs on these brakes do NOT use the little indexing holes in the frame/fork. If the posts are not snug and you will not be able to get any spring tension at all. This problem had me fooled for a few minutes until I calmed down and thought things through.

To answer your second question, I am running mine wide in front but not in back and have not experimented with other options. The brakes are sold in "front" and "back" sets with front set up wide, But you can easily change wide to narrow and vice versa on these, unlike the Pauls (I have never ridden or used Pauls, mind you). Good feature= these make use of road pads so you can pop in your favorite compound and be good to go. Their performance is vastly better than what I had, and is in the ballpark with my SRAM Red road bike brakes. These have a nice clean look too, IMHO.

Additional thoughts on the CX-1: I think Joejack's remarks are pretty much spot on. The frame is very stout/stiff but not buzzy or fatiguing. The bike is plenty maneuverable but less sensitive than the avg. road bike. Stability at speed is very nice. Choice of fork might have an effect on performance and I am using the PF fork which is all CF and has 50mm of rake as opposed to the more common 45mm spec. I have ridden a friend's Stevens CF cross bike briefly and the feel of the two bikes seems comparable.

Hi Billydon, Pedal Force says their cross fork has threaded holes for fenders in the drop out. I think I can see them in the pictures but they look small. Are they in fact there, and are they standard 5mm size like a water bottle cage bolt? Thanks.

I have a 2010 Specialized Tricross Expert. I just weighed it - 20.1 lbs with Shimano spd pedals. Nothing else on the bike. The forks and seat stays are carbon fiber and the rest of the frame is aluminum. I bought it for Cyclocross and for light duty touring.

For comparison, I also weighed my 2002 Litespeed Vortex, and it came in at 19.4; it has 2 stainless steel water bottle cage, a bag of tools with spare tube under the seat, and a Garmin cadence sensor.

Hi Billydon, Pedal Force says their cross fork has threaded holes for fenders in the drop out. I think I can see them in the pictures but they look small. Are they in fact there, and are they standard 5mm size like a water bottle cage bolt? Thanks.

Yes on both counts. They are there, and they are 5mm. I threaded one of my H20 cage bolts in to check.

I am actually considering one of these frames aswell. My two questions are

1) Can you give any idea to damage resistance? Have you ever done anything that might give an idea of how well it holds up to the scrapes and bumps I assume most commuter bikes experience?

2) How is it's handling when it is not loaded down? Can you give any comparisons between it and a road bike?

To 1. I crashed mine head-on into a sign-post at 17mph which put my rear wheel out of true. Frame perfectly intact. Crashed it a few times on gravel during CX races.

To 2. The handling is a little less responsive than my Trek Madone, but I was able to ride it during our Wednesday night hammer rides without any issues. I still had my rear rack and full lighting (schmitt hub dynamo + front and rear light) on it as well. Looked kinda funky with all the guys/gals riding their road bikes :D

I have the frame now since the beginning of 2009 and no issues or troubles at all.

Thomas

Hi, letting people know there is currently a group buy on the new Pedal Force CX2 cross frame, this replaces he CX1. Expires Aug. 14th. The new frame has a slightly sloping top tube and dual rack and fender eyelets. The fork does not have eyelets, but they still offer the CHKO2 fork with eyelets for $120 and the Ritchey Comp Carbon Cross for $175. $599 for the frame if they get 20 orders $499 if they get 40. Buying one for me and one for the wife. Link to group buy:
http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=21_101851&products_id=20501

Hi, letting people know there is currently a group buy on the new Pedal Force CX2 cross frame, this replaces he CX1. Expires Aug. 14th. The new frame has a slightly sloping top tube and dual rack and fender eyelets. The fork does not have eyelets, but they still offer the CHKO2 fork with eyelets for $120 and the Ritchey Comp Carbon Cross for $175. $599 for the frame if they get 20 orders $499 if they get 40. Buying one for me and one for the wife. Link to group buy:
http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=21_101851&products_id=20501

Thanks for posting this. I'm planning on going in.

$500 would be a steal for that frame. I have to question adding dual eyelets on the rear dropouts but none on the matching fork. But I will also add that those new dropouts appear to be a big improvement over the CX1's. My CX1 is almost at 12,000 miles now. Still loving it.

$500 would be a steal for that frame. I have to question adding dual eyelets on the rear dropouts but none on the matching fork. But I will also add that those new dropouts appear to be a big improvement over the CX1's. My CX1 is almost at 12,000 miles now. Still loving it.

Hi J-J,

I was considering the Cross Hair to replace my Soma Double Cross, but the CX2 deal is hard to resist. I know you had the Cross Hair B4 you had the CX1. Could you compare/contrast the ride and handling of the two? I'll be using the bike on-road for century rides. I'm hoping for a stiff frame for climbing that is smooth enough for a 200k.

Michael

Hi J-J,

I was considering the Cross Hair to replace my Soma Double Cross, but the CX2 deal is hard to resist. I know you had the Cross Hair B4 you had the CX1. Could you compare/contrast the ride and handling of the two? I'll be using the bike on-road for century rides. I'm hoping for a stiff frame for climbing that is smooth enough for a 200k.

Michael

Hey Micahel,

I started typing a more detailed response but my wife wants to go so I'm going to keep it short. Based on the bolded quote, CX1 without a doubt. Stiffness is the CX1's strong point in my opinion and it's why I find it to be a much more enjoyable ride than the Crosshairs which always seemed a bit too damped to me when pushing hard.

I contacted Pedal Force they still offer the CHKO2 fork with fender mounting holes drilled for $120, it does have the 12 k weave vs. the unidirectional carbon on the new frame but color is a match.

http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=21_100089&products_id=13567

They also offer the Ritchey Comp Carbon Cross for $175. Something else to consider if you have interest in a disc front brake is the Nashbar cyclocross fork which will take Cantis or Disc. I have had one on cheap touring frame for a couple of years, no problems rides well.