Professional Cycling - Mark Cavendish vs Alessandro Petacchi vs Mario Cipollin

I loved Mario's sprints against Zabel, Tom Steels and crew some years ago.
Chipo always put on a good show for the girls, the TVs and the tabloids. Everyone knew him as a flamboyant show-man and we all loved him for it.

Then came Alessandro Petacchi, snatching 4 stages in the Tour De France, 6 stages in the Giro, and 5 stages in the Vuelta ALL IN THE SAME YEAR. He even won 9 stages (yes 9) in the Giro on one year.

All seem to have cleaned the first week of sprints, then abandoned when the mountains come. The acceleration from the overhead camera show that all men carry greater speed than anyone in the bunch

Is it just me, or does Cavy-boy seem a little arrogant and to ego-headed in a bad way? I mean, sure, the guy is good, but not Petacchi good, or Mario good for that matter.
EVERY SINGLE ONE of his interviews he always says things like: "It was very easy for me to win", or "I made a bet with everyone with 10K to go that I would win because Im just that good" or "it was too easy to win, im just faster than everyone else". His over confidence almost rubs in the wrong way...

I havent kept up with cycling like I used to, but is it just me, or is this new kid on the block need to wind his neck in a little?
What is everyone making such a big deal out of him anyway? I mean, he is a long ways from Mario's record, and certainly I dont think he will get 9 stages in a Grand Tour like Alessandro Petacchi did.
Is it just the boost of American fans/coverage that when any rider does half decent they make the world out of it???

Cav doesn't really strike me as arrogant so much as a little egocentric. But he seems like he is trying to be humble to some degree. As much as he is able.

One thing that strikes me though. From watching several of the overhead sprint finishes this year. I don't think that Cav is as fast as Patacchi or even some of the other fastest sprinters. But one thing that I have noticed is that he can hold top speed for a longer period of time than most of these other guys. He seems to be able to hold top speed about twice as long as most of the other sprinters. So if the others sprinters don't move at exactly the right time Cav will catch and beat them. The one sprint in this years Giro, were Patacchi won he timed it perfectly. But if he jumps a little bit too soon Cav will take him.

He also seems to have a naturally good sense for when it is time to go which helps him a great deal.

I loved Mario's sprints against Zabel, Tom Steels and crew some years ago.
Chipo always put on a good show for the girls, the TVs and the tabloids. Everyone knew him as a flamboyant show-man and we all loved him for it.

Then came Alessandro Petacchi, snatching 4 stages in the Tour De France, 6 stages in the Giro, and 5 stages in the Vuelta ALL IN THE SAME YEAR. He even won 9 stages (yes 9) in the Giro on one year.

All seem to have cleaned the first week of sprints, then abandoned when the mountains come. The acceleration from the overhead camera show that all men carry greater speed than anyone in the bunch

Is it just me, or does Cavy-boy seem a little arrogant and to ego-headed in a bad way? I mean, sure, the guy is good, but not Petacchi good, or Mario good for that matter.EVERY SINGLE ONE of his interviews he always says things like: "It was very easy for me to win", or "I made a bet with everyone with 10K to go that I would win because Im just that good" or "it was too easy to win, im just faster than everyone else". His over confidence almost rubs in the wrong way...

I havent kept up with cycling like I used to, but is it just me, or is this new kid on the block need to wind his neck in a little?
What is everyone making such a big deal out of him anyway? I mean, he is a long ways from Mario's record, and certainly I dont think he will get 9 stages in a Grand Tour like Alessandro Petacchi did.
Is it just the boost of American fans/coverage that when any rider does half decent they make the world out of it???


i think it's too early in his career to say that cav isn't as good as cipo or petacchi. i certainly think he has the potential to be.

ed rader

He is cocky that is for sure, but I have to admit, he is damn fast and hard to beat when he has position. Like erader, I think it is too early in his career to say if he is the best or close to the top, but fun to watch. Would love to see him make the whole tour this year to see how he does after 3 weeks. Let him finish a few Tours and take home the Green Jersey several times, them we can discuss the legacy.

I'll agree with Ed, the jury is still out on Cav's longevity. That said, I think you have to have a certain amount of egocentricity if you're doing what he is...trying to bang handlebars at 40 mph. The peloton has had its share of loudmouth sprinters with short fuses. Cav's just another version of Cipo, or Abdujaparov, or Steels, or....

Cavendish is only 24 years old. He tied Petacchi for wins in their debut years (14).

It's his 3rd year as a pro and he already has 41 wins to his name. Give him another 7 years and he'll surpass 200. With any luck, it'll be 250+ career wins. I wouldn't bet against him having the most stage wins in the history of the Tour.

We'll just have to see if he loses some sprint with the amount of grand tours he will do. Happens to the best of them (Friere, Hushovd, Zabel, McEwen).

it's true he hasn't been around long enough to really start comparing him to the greats. and it is true that he has a matter-of-fact cockiness to him, but someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but i feel like lately (past year or so) he has won pretty much everything he has been in contention for. what i mean is, you hardly see any 2nd, 3rd, 4th place finishes. am i misinformed? i can think of a couple 2nd places in the giro last year, and that's it. if he's got the position, at least for now, it seems like no one can beat him.

Cavendish is only 24 years old. He tied Petacchi for wins in their debut years (14).

It's his 3rd year as a pro and he already has 41 wins to his name. Give him another 7 years and he'll surpass 200. With any luck, it'll be 250+ career wins. I wouldn't bet against him having the most stage wins in the history of the Tour.........

Oh geez, I guess you have a point. Nice call.
I just wish he was arrogant, but the nice kind, you know, like the Cipo kind. And I agrre with someone else said, sprinters have to be all or nothing, personality too I suppose.
Well, I hope he gets 5 wins this Tour.

Any bets he will take the final sprint in Paris? Thats a loaded question I know, becuase that assumes he makes it over the mountains. But make that part and parcel of the bet!!

Oh geez, I guess you have a point. Nice call.
I just wish he was arrogant, but the nice kind, you know, like the Cipo kind. And I agrre with someone else said, sprinters have to be all or nothing, personality too I suppose.
Well, I hope he gets 5 wins this Tour.

Any bets he will take the final sprint in Paris? Thats a loaded question I know, becuase that assumes he makes it over the mountains. But make that part and parcel of the bet!!

you mean like robbie mc ewen? no one is worst than that little ******* :D? the only humble sprinters are the ones who don't win ... you know, guys like tyler farrar.

the thing about cavendish is i really do think he tries to control his mouth....unlike loose cannons like armstrong and mc ewen and yes cipo in his younger years when he was considered by some to be a loudmouth prima donna.

and for the record i am a bigger fan of cipo than i am of cav but cipo sort of grew on me over the years (which is the complete opposite of how i view guys like lance today). i also suspect cav will become more likeable as he matures.

ed rader

I think Cav was pretty arrogant in his first year, and will maybe always have that tendency. However, every time I've seen him win in the last year, he makes sure to thank his team and acknowledge the competition. Seems like he's learning to be bit more, well, professional.

Besides, a little good natured swagger makes for good racing and good entertainment. Perfectly polite sprinters would be very dull.

Petacchi

2003 Giro - 6 wins
2003 Tour - 4 wins
2003 Vuelta - 5 wins

2004 Giro - 9 wins
2004 Vuelta - 4 wins

2005 Giro - 4 wins
2005 Vuelta - 5 wins

2007 Vuelta - 2 wins
pretty much locked out of the Giro/Tour 2006-2008

Cavendish

2008 Giro - 2 wins (Petacchi not there and Bennati won 3 stages)
2008 Tour - 4 wins (no Petacchi, no Boonen and McEwen had no helper)

He's winning a lot but he's not beating the top guys at their best.

Besides, a little good natured swagger makes for good racing and good entertainment. Perfectly polite sprinters would be very dull.

I believe that Petacchi has been nicknamed "The Gentleman Sprinter".

Also, during last year's Giro (if I remember correctly), Daniele Bennati had the chance to close the door on Cavendish in a sprint, but chose not to and allowed a head to head drag race. Cavendish beat him, but many people commended Bennati on his sense of fair play. Bennati later noted that if he had closed the door on Cavendish at full speed, and caused a serious accident, he wouldn't have been able to live with himself. A nice contrast to Abdoujaparov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBtCaLYFKjo), eh? :)

Having said all that, I loved Mario Cipollini's over the top antics like showing up dressed like Julius Caesar at the start of a Tour stage. For the most part, he was obnoxious only if you took him seriously - kind of like pcad :innocent:. I think Mario added a bit of flair and drama to the sport, in a good way. Pantani was the same.

best of sprinters the last decade or so...

worst temper-steels. 2nd-mc ewen.
most flamboyant-cipollini-by a mile.
best lead-out train-petacchi. 2nd-cipollini.
best without a leadout teammate/team-mc ewen. 2nd-freire.
scariest-abdou. is there anyone else even close???
most competitive-zabel. 2nd-mc ewen.
most consistent-zabel.
most inconsistent-friere.
straight up fastest-cavendish. 2nd-cipollini/mc ewen (tie).
straight up slowest-boonen. 2nd-friere.
best tactical acumen-mc ewen. 2nd-zabel. 3rd-cipollini.
best classics sprinter-zabel. 2nd-bettini. 3rd-boonen. 4th-friere.
best in a chaotic sprint-mc ewen. 2nd-zabel.
best uphill finish sprinter(not counting valverde)-boonen. 2nd-zabel. 3rd-bettini.
best climber-zabel. 2nd-jalabert. 3rd-bettini. 4th-friere.
best "just win, baby" sprinter-mc ewen.
most disqualified-steels. 2nd-mc ewen. 3rd-bettini.
best descender-bettini.
best tt-jalabert. 2nd-hushovd.
most in need of a lead-out-petacchi.
unluckiest sprinter (most 2nd places)-zabel.
most overrated-petacchi. 2nd-friere. 3rd-boonen.
most underrated-hushovd. 2nd-friere. 3rd-jalabert.
most powerful-cipollini. 2nd-hushovd.
most explosive-cavendish. 2nd-mc ewen.
biggest whiner-mc ewen. 2nd-bettini. 3rd-steels.
most gentlemanly/best sportsman-zabel.
best overall sprinter-zabel.

welcome your comments...

scariest-abdou. is there anyone else even close???

Not if they know what's good for them ;)

Although Theo Bos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8K_7bJQaaI) has raised his hand for that title as well (pardon the pun).

worst temper-steels. 2nd-mc ewen.

Dishonorable Mention: Jeroen Blijlevens (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/2000/tour_de_france/news/2000/07/23/blijlevens_incident/index.html)

oh god-yeah!! theo bos should be awarded the annual abdou "achievement" award for dubious conduct
befitting a sprinting situation every though the season is half over!! that was either beautiful or horrible
depending on your viewpoint. as a long-time soccer/football defensive player, intimidation is half the
game. no blood, no foul. blood...ok, have a free kick. bos should have a clear lane for sprinting to the
win the next couple of years if he has a decent lead-out train. i mean who wants to ride next to him
near the finish?? could be the next sean kelly. maybe he's on to something...a couple dq's here, a fistful
of wins there.

Zabel retired last year right?

I remember watching him win stages in the 1996, 1997 and I especially remember him in the 1998 Tour.
Twelve years later, the guy is still getting 3rd in the green jersey competition. Thats just crazy how time flies.

So Cipo and Zabel are both equal on 12 stages total for the Tour. Zabel clocks in with 192 career race victories, while Cipo clocks in at 191. The main difference between the two is that Zabel won 6 Green jerseys, while good 'ol Mario won ZERO, LOL

Cavi might be set to get more career wins than those two.

Heh, sprinters with attitudes, what a surprise! I loved the Tom Steels / Frederic Moncasin incident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzTZV0TYG-U)...

Cipo warms up his arm too... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4XxCZagAjk&feature=related)

Some more rumble in the jungle... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-bMiyES46Y&feature=related)

Not if they know what's good for them ;)

Although Theo Bos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8K_7bJQaaI) has raised his hand for that title as well (pardon the pun).


And if a branch out into track sprinting is counted, THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fge-LJw_iII&feature=related) might qualify!

Petacchi

2003 Giro - 6 wins
2003 Tour - 4 wins
2003 Vuelta - 5 wins

2004 Giro - 9 wins
2004 Vuelta - 4 wins

2005 Giro - 4 wins
2005 Vuelta - 5 wins

2007 Vuelta - 2 wins
pretty much locked out of the Giro/Tour 2006-2008

Cavendish

2008 Giro - 2 wins (Petacchi not there and Bennati won 3 stages)
2008 Tour - 4 wins (no Petacchi, no Boonen and McEwen had no helper)

He's winning a lot but he's not beating the top guys at their best.

Really? Why don't you do a fair comparison?

Pettachi went pro in 1996. What are Pettachi's achievements in his second year, in 1997? Cavendish went pro in 2007. What are Cavendish's achievements in his second year, in 2008?

Cavendish won those 6 stages in grand Tours at 23 years old (his second year as a pro). What did Pettachi win at 23 years old? That was 1997 (also his second year as a pro).

It took Petacchi 5 years before he got his first grand tour win.

best of sprinters the last decade or so...


scariest-abdou. is there anyone else even close???

welcome your comments...
Please research Graeme Brown.

Please research Graeme Brown.



Really? Why don't you do a fair comparison?

Pettachi went pro in 1996. What are Pettachi's achievements in his second year, in 1997? Cavendish went pro in 2007. What are Cavendish's achievements in his second year, in 2008?

Cavendish won those 6 stages in grand Tours at 23 years old (his second year as a pro). What did Pettachi win at 23 years old? That was 1997 (also his second year as a pro).

It took Petacchi 5 years before he got his first grand tour win.
Petacchi's first year on a team that rode grand tours he won two Vuelta stages...and he came up during the Cipollini/Zabel/McEwen hey day. There is nobody at the top of their game right now other than Cav and Ale-jet and they rarely race head to head.

I think Cav learned some restraint after he blew his stack in... 2006\T-Mobile ??, when he had a mechanical. Looked like a 3 year old having a hissy on the side of the road. I remember Phil just slamming him for that.

Whats wrong with being a little cocky? He is grateful to his team, and always thanks them immediately after a stage win. I don't think he is disrespectful at all. He does make it look easy, so all he does it tell the truth :)

The Interview they showed during today's stage Cav said it was easy because he had the best train. He listed his guys by name and said it was easy to win when you have a train like that. Pretty classy in my book.

The Interview they showed during today's stage Cav said it was easy because he had the best train. He listed his guys by name and said it was easy to win when you have a train like that. Pretty classy in my book.

Thats the new song he sings. Last year was more about him. Its good that he's becoming more professional.

He is putting on a good show this year.

About him being cocky, he has come up when there really isnt any other sprinters. Had it been the Cipo, Steels, Zabel, Mcewen days, he might not be so cocky.

Thats the new song he sings. Last year was more about him. Its good that he's becoming more professional.

He is putting on a good show this year.

About him being cocky, he has come up when there really isnt any other sprinters. Had it been the Cipo, Steels, Zabel, Mcewen days, he might not be so cocky.

the best always make it look like there is no real competition.

ed rader

the best always make it look like there is no real competition.

ed rader
haha, awesome!

haha, awesome!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxDBpMCffU

:D

ed rader

the best always make it look like there is no real competition.

ed rader

Thats a good sig line, very nice

I'm not saying Cav isn't good or even great. I am saying he's racking up great wins against non-great fields.

Go back to the first half of this decade. You had Cipollini, Petacchi, Zabel, McEwen, Freire...all guys we'll still be talking about 20 years from now.

Who is Cavendish regularly beating right now that we'll still be talking about 20 years from now? A 37-year old McEwen? Tyler Farrar? please. Boonen? for sure but Cavendish won 4 Tour stages last with Boonen not there. Daniele Bennati? Cavendish won 2 Giro stages against him in 2008 but Bennati won 3. He didn't ride the Tour last year. Boonen never does the Giro. Hushovd? okay, but he's a perennial top 5 also-ran who got it right once in a while like Jalabert.

I need to see Cavendish win a few more sprints with Boonen, Petacchi, Freire and Bennati all there at the end before I call him one of the all-time greats.

Please research Graeme Brown.

yeah, he's definitely had his moments as has rene haselbacher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxDBpMCffU

:D

ed rader

I see what you did there.
Pretty funny ;);)

Comparing past vs present day riders is a very difficult proposition, if not impossible. Can you compare Babe Ruth and Ken Griffey, Jr? It's impossible to compare them head to head so it's based purely on opinion and speculation. Fun, but not very objective.

I didn't want to start a new thread for this question, so I thought this one may be the best.

How fast, approximately, is Cavendish going ~50m from the finish?

At the finish of the final stage this year he was moving between 42 and 46 with eight seconds to go. My math skills are poor so I don't know how this calculates to meters out from the finish.

Cipollini and Petacchi used to regularly cross the finish line at the Giro doing 46 mph.

And this quote from bicycling mag "When it came to sprinting, no sprinter in the history of the sport could rival Cipollini in terms of pure, unadulterated speed."

My personal opinion is that Cav doesn't yet have that pure top end speed. What is amazing about him is how long he can hold an amazing speed. I wonder what it feels like to be able to ride like him.

Go back to the first half of this decade. You had Cipollini, Petacchi, Zabel, McEwen, Freire...all guys we'll still be talking about 20 years from now.

He cant control his competition, but he sure does dominate them.

Hes got 10 TdF wins in 1 1/2 tours. If he stays healthy for 5 more years you will be talking about him as one of the all time greats.

Hes got 10 TdF wins in 1 1/2 tours. If he stays healthy for 5 more years you will be talking about him as one of the all time greats.

Agreed. These guys have been show to burn out pretty quickly though. Time will tell.

Agreed. These guys have been show to burn out pretty quickly though. Time will tell.


Yeah the career window of power is fleeting at times.

I read somewhere that sprinters actually have longer shelf lives than GC contenders? Is that true?

He cant control his competition, but he sure does dominate them.

Hes got 10 TdF wins in 1 1/2 tours. If he stays healthy for 5 more years you will be talking about him as one of the all time greats.
Sure, as long as Boonen keeps coking up and there are no other really fast guys in the race.

Sure, as long as Boonen keeps coking up and there are no other really fast guys in the race.

Boonen's not really his competition though. Different type of rider. Cav's competition are people like Farrar, Hushovd, Peta, Dean and McEwen.

I read somewhere that sprinters actually have longer shelf lives than GC contenders? Is that true?

Not when it comes to TDF stage wins. No sprinter near the top, only GC guys.

LA won his first TdF stage in 1993. It's 2009 now. That's 16 years of being competitive at the TdF level. No sprinter that I'm aware of has had even 8 years of that level of quality, much less 16. I'd say the GC guys last longer. Of course, some burn out quicker, but the same can be said of sprinters.

I think the Hincapie/Renshaw leadout is what makes Cav look unstoppable these days, and he's the first to admit that that is a big part of the reason.

My gut feeling is that in the next few years Farrar is going to start stealing an ever-increasing number of stages from Cav.

I think the Hincapie/Renshaw leadout is what makes Cav look unstoppable these days, and he's the first to admit that that is a big part of the reason.


Hes won with and without them leading out. Hes the fastest on the planet right now. Obviously its a team sport, but at the line there is no one better right now.

LA won his first TdF stage in 1993. It's 2009 now. That's 16 years of being competitive at the TdF level. No sprinter that I'm aware of has had even 8 years of that level of quality, much less 16. I'd say the GC guys last longer. Of course, some burn out quicker, but the same can be said of sprinters.

The GC guys near the top of the list generally put in all their stage wins in 7 or 8 years. Armstrong won a stege in 93, but was not a GC contender until 99. He won all but 2 of his stages in 7 years. Merckx has all his stage wins in 7 (perhaps 6) years. Anquetil might be an exception. Not sure if he has a lot of stage wins, but he has one TDF win very young then a gap then 4 in a row.

Endurance is easier to maintain than outright youthful power. But its clear that elite athletes only have a certain dominance window and I would agree with that window being about 6-8 years.

Endurance is easier to maintain than outright youthful power. But its clear that elite athletes only have a certain dominance window and I would agree with that window being about 6-8 years.


I could probably agree with that, though even sprinters themselves admit their lifespans at the top tends to be short. That said, I have no reason to believe with the right leadout that Cav won't continue his winning ways for at least another 2 years. You can never know from year to year.

best of sprinters the last decade or so...

worst temper-steels. 2nd-mc ewen.
most flamboyant-cipollini-by a mile.
best lead-out train-petacchi. 2nd-cipollini.
best without a leadout teammate/team-mc ewen. 2nd-freire.
scariest-abdou. is there anyone else even close???
most competitive-zabel. 2nd-mc ewen.
most consistent-zabel.
most inconsistent-friere.
straight up fastest-cavendish. 2nd-cipollini/mc ewen (tie).
straight up slowest-boonen. 2nd-friere.
best tactical acumen-mc ewen. 2nd-zabel. 3rd-cipollini.
best classics sprinter-zabel. 2nd-bettini. 3rd-boonen. 4th-friere.
best in a chaotic sprint-mc ewen. 2nd-zabel.
best uphill finish sprinter(not counting valverde)-boonen. 2nd-zabel. 3rd-bettini.
best climber-zabel. 2nd-jalabert. 3rd-bettini. 4th-friere.
best "just win, baby" sprinter-mc ewen.
most disqualified-steels. 2nd-mc ewen. 3rd-bettini.
best descender-bettini.
best tt-jalabert. 2nd-hushovd.
most in need of a lead-out-petacchi.
unluckiest sprinter (most 2nd places)-zabel.
most overrated-petacchi. 2nd-friere. 3rd-boonen.
most underrated-hushovd. 2nd-friere. 3rd-jalabert.
most powerful-cipollini. 2nd-hushovd.
most explosive-cavendish. 2nd-mc ewen.
biggest whiner-mc ewen. 2nd-bettini. 3rd-steels.
most gentlemanly/best sportsman-zabel.
best overall sprinter-zabel.

welcome your comments...

Here's a question . . . what is the rational behind Friere being second most over and under rated?